(Ed) Corona Virus Conspiracy Theories....

[MarkCorrigan]

Originally Posted by Steve

That's 500,000 American people, and 2 million "others".

Yes, this pisses me off! Seems like Americans have claimed this disease for themselves and the rest of the world is an afterthought.

I'm not American. I wanted to say millions but lowballed it in case someone objected.

[Cosmic Yak]

Originally Posted by Caroline13

From an Angry RN on Covid 19, believe it or not, conspiracy or not...I believe it and felt this way from Day 1.

Originally Posted by varwoche

Self-pegged as a true believer from day one. The science obviously doesn't matter to you. The death toll doesn't matter. The overflowing hospitals don't matter. The simple measures that can be taken to stop the spread don't matter, because you're supremely confident that your pre-conceived notions are all that do matter.

It's bleakly refreshing to see a blind zealot who flat out owns their staggering ignorance. Who flat out owns their illusory superiority. Crikey, you run it up a flagpole.

Quite. Caroline13 is openly admitting that her position is not evidence-based: it's more of an emotional reaction.
Nothing wrong with emotional reactions, of course, but if they are contradicted by all of the available factual evidence, then the sensible thing to do would be to examine that reaction, reassess it, and perhaps conclude that over-hasty, knee-jerk reactions are not always reliable.

[Steve]

Originally Posted by MarkCorrigan

I'm not American. I wanted to say millions but lowballed it in case someone objected.

My mistake. I assumed you were American because the "hundreds of thousands" reference seemed similar to a number of other posts here. Worldwide covid deaths approaching 2.5 million is, imo, a much more important number than the half million USA deaths.

[Foster Zygote]

Originally Posted by MarkCorrigan

Wow. So you ignore that I pointed out that he did not have any underlying conditions and simply assert that he did. Your arrogance is staggering.

The major draw of conspiracy theories is justification for belief in one's own intellectual superiority. But in Caroline's case she's made it clear that she needs to believe that she's superior to others in health, as well.

[Cosmic Yak]

Originally Posted by Caroline13

You choose the ONE you live in, I have an open mind and look at as much as I can and make my decisions.

Err...no, you don't:

Originally Posted by Caroline13

From an Angry RN on Covid 19, believe it or not, conspiracy or not...I believe it and felt this way from Day 1.

Caroline13, which is it? Did you look at a lot of evidence before deciding, or did you simply feel that way from the very beginning?

[Carrot Flower King]

Oh, we're back into anecdote again. And nurse-based this time!

So, my sister (Band 7 in palliative care) and all her colleagues say Covid exists, as several of them had it, they've seen many patients with it and they've read mucho evidence; the specialist nurse from my cardiology team (Band 7 also) I spoke to a couple of weeks ago says it exists, as her team have seen enough folk with it and half the team has been diverted away from normal cardiology duties to other areas because of it; I (retired Band 7) say it exists, as I've read shedloads of that science stuff.

There, we out rank some eejit on Youtube or wherever.

[Steve]

Originally Posted by Cosmic Yak

Err...no, you don't:



Caroline13, which is it? Did you look at a lot of evidence before deciding, or did you simply feel that way from the very beginning?

A contradiction in a CT? Say it aint so.

[MarkCorrigan]

Originally Posted by Steve

My mistake. I assumed you were American because the "hundreds of thousands" reference seemed similar to a number of other posts here. Worldwide covid deaths approaching 2.5 million is, imo, a much more important number than the half million USA deaths.

No worries, it's all good.

[kookbreaker]

Originally Posted by MarkCorrigan

Wow. So you ignore that I pointed out that he did not have any underlying conditions and simply assert that he did. Your arrogance is staggering.

Blaming the victim is the first defense of the health nut or faith healer.

[Foster Zygote]

Originally Posted by kookbreaker

Blaming the victim is the first defense of the health nut or faith healer.

I get the impression that Caroline is far more concerned with the vulnerability of her own health than she lets on, and that assuring herself that others have died because they were negligent, or physically inferior to her, is a means for self-comfort.

[jimbob]

Part of a thread claiming Covid's not causing the deaths

https://twitter.com/ClareCraigPath/s...23040273760257

Quote:

Dr Clare Craig
@ClareCraigPath
·
21h
Normal
0%
There's a serious problem with excess deaths in the under 64s at the moment.

The peak was far higher than in the older groups and it is not coming down as fast. The difference amounts to over 700 deaths in 60-64 yrs and 1000 in the under 60s.

This is not COVID (see next graph)
Dr Clare Craig
@ClareCraigPath
·
21h
Normal
0%
COVID deaths are tracking for every age group as a percentage of the Spring peak.
Dr Clare Craig
@ClareCraigPath
Normal
0%
Replying to
@ClareCraigPath
The excess death graph is calculated by taking each week of deaths, subtracting the number of deaths the week of the minimum in September and then taking the percentage compared with the Spring peak.

Yes



and look at the September minimum, which makes it even more "eccentric" than it seems:



Yes there's a bank holiday effect - unless she's not being clear in what she says. And sadly, I do think she believes what she writes.

[Craig4]

Not that our deniers want to be educated but actual skeptics may find this of value. The Economist did a pretty good deep dive into global excess deaths in 2020. The US was at 138 per 100,000 in 2020. It's a vain hope but our deniers might want to read the article as it's instructive as to what real study methodology looks like.

https://www.economist.com/graphic-de...deaths-tracker

[Hans]

Originally Posted by Caroline13

I don't know about the polynesians and the European disease.

Hawaiians lost 84% of their population after exposure to European diseases - they had a remarkably healthy life style so why did they die?

[varwoche]

I was fixated on Pastor Chuck Baldwin during the 2008 election cycle.

Ron Paul, Chuck Baldwin and Christopia

He's the whackjob who relocated to Montana to join The American Redoubt, and who ran for POTUS (with Ron Paul's endorsement). Baldwin believes that the covid crisis is the work of the devil -- not the pandemic, but the actions of the government. But he differs from like-minded individuals like Mike Lindell. Baldwin is anti Trump.

I'll dig up the link on request. Its a long, tedious audio recording.

I should mention ... Though he's not a comedian, Pastor Chuck reminds me of George Carlin.

[Cosmic Yak]

Originally Posted by Steve

A contradiction in a CT? Say it aint so.

Actually, my post was more for the benefit of Caroline13.
The effects of cognitive biases on our judgement are fairly common knowledge on this forum. I'm not sure to what extent she is aware of them- I certainly didn't know much about this before I joined this forum. Since then, I have learned a great deal, both from what's been posted here, and the further reading this forum has inspired me to do, and this better understanding has proved invaluable.
I'm hoping the same thing will happen with Caroline13- a bit of reflection on how she arrived at her conclusions, and a better understanding of how things like confirmation bias can skew our reasoning.

[jimbob]

Originally Posted by jimbob

Part of a thread claiming Covid's not causing the deaths

https://twitter.com/ClareCraigPath/s...23040273760257



Yes

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EvkVEL0X...png&name=small

and look at the September minimum, which makes it even more "eccentric" than it seems:

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EvkVHz8W...png&name=small

Yes there's a bank holiday effect - unless she's not being clear in what she says. And sadly, I do think she believes what she writes.

I've now tried applying what I think is her method of calculating excess deaths to every week since wk31, 1999, and highlighting the positive excess values (above the minimum for September for that year) to them



The pink cells are the weeks that would be counted as excess according to that method.

[Tom Palven]

The sky is falling! The sky is falling!

Pope Anthony is VERY worried about mutations!
https://www.msn.com/en-us/money/othe...cid=uxbndlbing

[The Great Zaganza]

He and every other epidemiologist.

[Axxman300]

Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza

He and every other epidemiologist.

Yes, since April of last year:

https://www.nejm.org/doi/pdf/10.1056/NEJMoa2006100

https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMoa2006100

The important message in this second one:

Quote:

Thus, the frequency of the SARS-CoV-2 infection in the overall Icelandic population was stable from March 13 to April 1, a finding that appears to indicate that the containment measures had been working. However, the virus has spread to the extent that unless we continue to test and isolate, track contacts, and quarantine, we are likely to fail in our efforts to contain the virus.

For non-scientific folks:

https://nypost.com/2020/03/24/icelan...s-report-says/

Quote:

Scientists in Iceland found 40 mutations of the coronavirus among people with the deadly bug in the country — and that seven infections came from people who attended the same soccer match in the UK, according to a report.

The researchers discovered the mutations — or small changes in the genome of the virus — by analyzing swabs of COVID-19 patients in the country, where nearly 648 cases had been reported as of Tuesday afternoon, according to the Iceland outlet Information.

Personal note: This scientific record is why I love the scientific method. Many hours of tedious work went into these two reports alone.

[Foster Zygote]

Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza

He and every other epidemiologist.

No ****. Even someone who paid attention in high school senior biology class would understand why that's an all too likely danger. It's depressing just how proud some people are of their own ignorance.

[MarkCorrigan]

Originally Posted by Cosmic Yak

Actually, my post was more for the benefit of Caroline13.
The effects of cognitive biases on our judgement are fairly common knowledge on this forum. I'm not sure to what extent she is aware of them- I certainly didn't know much about this before I joined this forum. Since then, I have learned a great deal, both from what's been posted here, and the further reading this forum has inspired me to do, and this better understanding has proved invaluable.
I'm hoping the same thing will happen with Caroline13- a bit of reflection on how she arrived at her conclusions, and a better understanding of how things like confirmation bias can skew our reasoning.

Unlikely since she claimed DNA was obviously a preservative and runs away or ignores anyone who questions her on that fact.

[marting]

Originally Posted by Cosmic Yak

Actually, my post was more for the benefit of Caroline13.
The effects of cognitive biases on our judgement are fairly common knowledge on this forum. I'm not sure to what extent she is aware of them- I certainly didn't know much about this before I joined this forum. Since then, I have learned a great deal, both from what's been posted here, and the further reading this forum has inspired me to do, and this better understanding has proved invaluable.
I'm hoping the same thing will happen with Caroline13- a bit of reflection on how she arrived at her conclusions, and a better understanding of how things like confirmation bias can skew our reasoning.

That's a good point. My purpose in interacting on various boards and researching stuff is to discover new info and, most critically, info that changes my current understanding of things. The latter I most highly value. Confirmation bias is ever present but recognizing and overcoming it to absorb conflicting or probable facts is essential. It's not easy though. I learned a long time ago how essential it was in my engineering job to test new ideas and not go down a rabbit hole no matter how attractive the idea seemed.

[Pixel42]

Originally Posted by Tom Palven

The sky is falling! The sky is falling!

Pope Anthony is VERY worried about mutations!
https://www.msn.com/en-us/money/othe...cid=uxbndlbing

If the virus mutates into a form which the vaccines we've developed are ineffective against it will be a major setback, putting the tentative schedule for returning to normal back by many months.

Did you really not know that?

[Tom Palven]

Originally Posted by Pixel42

If the virus mutates into a form which the vaccines we've developed are ineffective against it will be a major setback, putting the tentative schedule for returning to normal back by many months.

Did you really not know that?

Well, that's what I've been led to believe over most of my 75 years- that viruses mutate all the time- coronaviruses, flu viruses, rhinoviruses, etc., and the human immune system usually fights them off unless it is inherently weak or has been compromised, even novel flu viruses and novel coronaviruses, which it seems occur every year.

[Steve]

Originally Posted by Tom Palven

Well, that's what I've been led to believe over most of my 75 years- that viruses mutate all the time- coronaviruses, flu viruses, rhinoviruses, etc., and the human immune system usually fights them off unless it is inherently weak or has been compromised.

There is a very important word. Consider the implications. Then consider how well, or otherwise, the human immune system fights off, for example, the ebola virus.

[Caroline13]

Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza

He and every other epidemiologist.

NOT SO.

Get your friggin Immune Systems strong and you don't need to worry aboout this and that mutation. Then what would you talk about, a good immune system, lord no.

As for me I have good health and as I've said many times here I live with a damaged body from a major hip surgery (replacement) 10 yrs ago....and yes some 60 yrs of arthritis that started at 18 and it does not reverse with age, one manages it and many work to stay away from the surgeon's knives...I often think where I'd be had I not let them cut me up.

[Matthew Ellard]

Originally Posted by Caroline13

Get your friggin Immune Systems strong and you don't need to worry aboout this and that mutation.

So how does the human body magically already have antibodies ready for new mutations "Caroline"?

Is it magic? Do tell us.

[Resume]

Originally Posted by Caroline13

NOT SO. <crapsnip>

Stop giving medical advice; you aren't qualified and every post you make demonstrates that.

[Delphic Oracle]

Originally Posted by Caroline13

NOT SO.

Get your friggin Immune Systems strong and you don't need to worry aboout this and that mutation. Then what would you talk about, a good immune system, lord no.

As for me I have good health and as I've said many times here I live with a damaged body from a major hip surgery (replacement) 10 yrs ago....and yes some 60 yrs of arthritis that started at 18 and it does not reverse with age, one manages it and many work to stay away from the surgeon's knives...I often think where I'd be had I not let them cut me up.

"My medical conditions afflicted me through no fault of my own; medical conditions afflicting other people are evidence of low character."

I think this attitude speaks volumes.

[Foster Zygote]

Originally Posted by Matthew Ellard

So how does the human body magically already have antibodies ready for new mutations "Caroline"?

Is it magic? Do tell us.

Its the lack of those DNA preservatives that gives her immune system super powers.

[MarkCorrigan]

Originally Posted by Caroline13

NOT SO.

Get your friggin Immune Systems strong and you don't need to worry aboout this and that mutation. Then what would you talk about, a good immune system, lord no.

As for me I have good health and as I've said many times here I live with a damaged body from a major hip surgery (replacement) 10 yrs ago....and yes some 60 yrs of arthritis that started at 18 and it does not reverse with age, one manages it and many work to stay away from the surgeon's knives...I often think where I'd be had I not let them cut me up.

Why do you keep ignoring people Caroline? Why do you think we can't see just how intellectually bankrupt you are?

Why, for example, did you simply assert without evidence that the person I knew who died must have had a compromised immune system despite not knowing him at all, whereas I, who did know him, knew that he did not? Indeed, I even told you he did not.

I don't have a compromised immune system per se, but I've still been instructed very firmly to shield and have been put on the "Underlying Conditions" section of the immunisation program. This is because I was born with 3 congenital heart defects. Now one of them has been completely cleared up and does not bother me, but one needs regular (as in, I've had 3 or 4 operations on it so far) surgery, and the other is literally not fixable. Therefore should I get COVID19, my heart and breathing could be put under unacceptable strain and I could die. This isn't a problem with my immune system, but I bet you will insist it is.

[Foster Zygote]

Originally Posted by Delphic Oracle

"My medical conditions afflicted me through no fault of my own; medical conditions afflicting other people are evidence of low character."

I think this attitude speaks volumes.

I get the same impression. The apparent inability to see anything beyond its immediate effect on her also helps solidify this assessment. She had a bad experience with a hip replacement, therefore all hip replacements are a bad thing. Furthermore, all surgeries of any kind are bad. This is certainly consistent with the self-centered belief that not yet personally knowing anyone who has become seriously ill or has died from COVID-19 is evidence that it's all fake.

ETA: I only know a couple of people who have had hip replacement surgery, but both were given much improved mobility afterward. I also have a friend who had a knee replacement in his mid sixties (he'd seriously injured that knee in the U.S. Army during jump training as an Airborne Ranger, and it finally deteriorated to the point that he could hardly walk, or drive his '74 911 Targa, which really annoyed him) and after recovering from the surgery he was able to be physically active again, which was very important to him.

[Foster Zygote]

Originally Posted by Caroline13

I often think where I'd be had I not let them cut me up.

Probably in pain from a deteriorated hip.

I'm sorry you were among the small percentage who are in pain after hip replacement. But you said yourself in another post that you were informed that there were risks. Why would you still assume that you would be guaranteed a successful outcome? Why would you assume that all hip replacements are bad?

HSS

"The success rate for this surgery is high, with greater than 95% of patients experiencing relief from hip pain. The success rate of hip replacements 10 years after surgery is 90- 95% and at 20 years 80-85%. Should an implant wear or loosen, revision to a new hip replacement is possible."

[Tom Palven]

Originally Posted by Matthew Ellard

So how does the human body magically already have antibodies ready for new mutations "Caroline"?

Is it magic? Do tell us.

Did normal human immune systems manage to fight off NEW cold and flu viruses for hundreds of thousands of years without the benefit of flu shots and cold medicines, and now have suddenly become incapacitated?

How has the immune system ALWAYS fought off NEW (novel) viruses?

Keep the Covidist Faith, please.

[beachnut]

Originally Posted by Tom Palven

Did normal human immune systems manage to fight off NEW cold and flu viruses for hundreds of thousands of years without the benefit of flu shots and cold medicines, and now have suddenly become incapacitated?

How has the immune system ALWAYS fought off NEW (novel) viruses?

Keep the Covidist Faith, please.

wow, you don't know why -

It appears you missed or did not pay attention in Biology class... and lack an understanding of science and mortality... and history, etc

Explain why you think covid is fiction.

[Captain_Swoop]

Originally Posted by Tom Palven

Did normal human immune systems manage to fight off NEW cold and flu viruses for hundreds of thousands of years without the benefit of flu shots and cold medicines, and now have suddenly become incapacitated?

How has the immune system ALWAYS fought off NEW (novel) viruses?

Keep the Covidist Faith, please.

Like it managed to fight of Smallpox or Polio or Rabies you mean?

[Steve]

Originally Posted by Tom Palven

Did normal human immune systems manage to fight off NEW cold and flu viruses for hundreds of thousands of years without the benefit of flu shots and cold medicines, and now have suddenly become incapacitated?

How has the immune system ALWAYS fought off NEW (novel) viruses?

Keep the Covidist Faith, please.

Viruses have always killed people. Vaccines and effective medicines have helped reduce the number of deaths. A major reason that the average human lifespan is higher than it has ever been and continues to increase is the effective application of modern medicines, including vaccines.

Considering it is a new virus the immune systems of humans are doing a remarkable job of fighting off COVID-19. Only 1 to 2 percent of the cases result in death, and a high percentage of people recover without hospitalization because their immune systems are successfully fighting the virus. The advantage of a vaccine is that it gives a significant assist to the human immune system and will significantly reduce the number of deaths and serious cases beyond what immune systems alone can accomplish. Reducing this year's 2.5 million worldwide deaths by 90% next year would be a good thing, right?

[Tom Palven]

Originally Posted by beachnut

wow, you don't know why -

It appears you missed or did not pay attention in Biology class... and lack an understanding of science and mortality... and history, etc

Explain why you think covid is fiction.

Right from the get-go the vague Chinese Weapons lab and Pangolin stories smelled fishy, and I began gathering facts.

There are thousands of people on their last legs, dying of colon cancer, congestive heart failure, or whatever, who "die today" of diarrhea and dehydration from what doctors and nurses call C. diff (see-diff, Clostridium difficile bacteria), which doesn't often affect doctors and nurses, but just people whose immune systems are compromised, or whose "good" bacteria have been killed by antibiotics.

Does the death certificate say that the cause of death was dehydration, diarrhea, or C. difficile?

No, usually the death certificate states only the primary cause.

Except, apparently, in the Presidential-election year, where Covid-19 was listed as the cause of death for people in nursing homes on hospice care, and political science trumped biological science.

Also, FactCheck confirmed that hospitals get a large government bonus when they report covid as a contributing factor in deaths, whereas they don't for C. diff. FactCheck pulled that report, but the same info is available elsewhere.

If hospitals were paid to report C. diff as a death co-factor, fearmongers could report millions of C. diff deaths world-wide every year.

I went over all this ad nauseum at Skeptics.com with quotes from The True Believer: Thoughts on the Nature of Mass Movements and other sources, connecting a lot of dots that indicate that Covid-19 is less a catastrophic plague, and more a colossal fiction. It's still there to see, and I won't repeat it here.

Imvho, if we could explain why billions of people have come to believe that an angel hovered over the Virgin Mary causing her to give birth to the Son of God who died for our sins, that it might go a long way toward explaining what kind of economic and political factors interacted to cause billions of people to accept the notion that a common-cold coronavirus is a plague of Biblical proportions and the flu has mysteriously disappeared.

[Steve]

Originally Posted by Tom Palven

Right from the get-go the vague Chinese Weapons lab and Pangolin stories smelled fishy, and I began gathering facts.

Much snippage

He he

Well, that nicely sums up the conspiracy-without-a-purpose in the USA. It all has to do with electing your president and making sure your for-profit hospitals are worthy of the name.

Now, where do the non-USA parts of the planet fit in?

[varwoche]

Originally Posted by Tom Palven

Right from the get-go the vague Chinese Weapons lab and Pangolin stories smelled fishy, and I began gathering facts.

I share Steve 's amusement!

Where from? A bartender? A decades old comedy bit? Conan O'Brien show? Ron Paul newsletter?