Coronavirus and faith

[Thor 2]

We have much speculation about how/if the world economies are going to bounce back but I wonder if the religions will. I wonder once the doors to the churches, mosques, and synagogues are thrown open once again, what percentage of the faithful will file in.

The mosques in particular will be of interest. The god of Islam demands that men attend every week. After weeks of not fulfilling this obligation and no retribution forthcoming* I wonder if the faith will be shaken?


* I know the retribution is supposed to be after you die but Muslims, like Christians, may muddle this up a bit. There is nothing as muddle-some as religion.

[The Atheist]

Originally Posted by Thor 2

The mosques in particular will be of interest. The god of Islam demands that men attend every week. After weeks of not fulfilling this obligation and no retribution forthcoming* I wonder if the faith will be shaken?

Oh, they'll go back to the mosques, no trouble.

I'd be interested to know if the male/female split on Covid differs in islamic countries to others, mainly centred around their idiotic beliefs.

The men gather together 50 times a day to lean their foreheads on the ground, while the chicks wear outfits with built-in face masks.

I'd find it hilarious if women only form a fraction of cases in Iran, Saudi, etc.

[Roger Ramjets]

Originally Posted by The Atheist

I'd find it hilarious if women only form a fraction of cases in Iran, Saudi, etc.

Turns out the burqa wasn't such a bad thing after all!

[Delvo]

Originally Posted by Thor 2

We have much speculation about how/if the world economies are going to bounce back but I wonder if the religions will. I wonder once the doors to the churches, mosques, and synagogues are thrown open once again, what percentage of the faithful will file in.

It would be irrational to even suspect any possibility that religiosity might decline in response to a crisis. The normal response to a crisis is for religiosity to grow.

Originally Posted by Thor 2

The god of Islam demands that men attend every week. After weeks of not fulfilling this obligation and no retribution forthcoming* I wonder if the faith will be shaken

You imagine an internal conflict which does not exist.

A co-worker of mine had the routine of praying alone in an empty room at lunchtime every day except Friday, when he would take a lengthened lunch break and go to his mosque. He has now adjusted his Friday prayers down to the same private prayer he does on other days. The explanation: "We are required not to do harm." There's no question to need to answer here. It's so simple & straightforward & obvious that it's automatic. There's not only no conflict, but not even the possibility of a conflict. Looking for one there is like expecting a train in Montana and a boat in a Florida swamp to collide with each other.

[Thor 2]

Originally Posted by Delvo

It would be irrational to even suspect any possibility that religiosity might decline in response to a crisis. The normal response to a crisis is for religiosity to grow.

Steady on there Delvo I'm just speculating here.

It is not in response to a crisis I am talking about. It is in response to a change in weekly routine and it is in response to the authority of the religious institution being overridden by the authority of the government.

Don't know about religiosity being proven to grow in the wake of a crisis however. I have read of some survivors of disasters being interviewed and claiming their faith has been strengthened. This of course may be just bravado and true test would be a study of how the faithful voted with their feet. I haven't heard of any studies of this - have you?

Quote:

You imagine an internal conflict which does not exist.

A co-worker of mine had the routine of praying alone in an empty room at lunchtime every day except Friday, when he would take a lengthened lunch break and go to his mosque. He has now adjusted his Friday prayers down to the same private prayer he does on other days. The explanation: "We are required not to do harm." There's no question to need to answer here. It's so simple & straightforward & obvious that it's automatic. There's not only no conflict, but not even the possibility of a conflict. Looking for one there is like expecting a train in Montana and a boat in a Florida swamp to collide with each other.

Not too sure what you are trying to illustrate here and I don't think your analogy throws any light on the subject.

[arthwollipot]

Originally Posted by Thor 2

We have much speculation about how/if the world economies are going to bounce back but I wonder if the religions will. I wonder once the doors to the churches, mosques, and synagogues are thrown open once again, what percentage of the faithful will file in.

Oh the religions are going to survive. If there's one thing religion is, it's adaptable. Just look at... well, the last two thousand years of religious history.

[rjh01]

Originally Posted by arthwollipot

Oh the religions are going to survive. If there's one thing religion is, it's adaptable. Just look at... well, the last two thousand years of religious history.

Survive, yes. But suffer. People have been away from their priest for weeks. They may come to work out they do not need him anymore so do not go back when the lockdown is over.

On the other hand it may increase people's worry about the world and use religion as a crutch so start going to church, even if they have not been going previously.

Over the last 2,000 years religion has gone from killing people who were the wrong faith to it being normal not to be religious at all.

[The Atheist]

Originally Posted by rjh01

Over the last 2,000 years religion has gone from killing people who were the wrong faith to it being normal not to be religious at all.

Bit broad on the brush there, mate - there are still lots of places where you can be killed for the wrong belief.

Even in white man's places, an atheist would still not be able to become president of USA.

[arthwollipot]

Originally Posted by rjh01

Survive, yes. But suffer. People have been away from their priest for weeks. They may come to work out they do not need him anymore so do not go back when the lockdown is over.

On the other hand it may increase people's worry about the world and use religion as a crutch so start going to church, even if they have not been going previously.

Yeah, maybe. We don't know. Like most things we'll have to wait and see.

Also, what The Atheist said.

[dann]

Originally Posted by The Atheist

Bit broad on the brush there, mate - there are still lots of places where you can be killed for the wrong belief.

Even in white man's places, an atheist would still not be able to become president of USA.

Not if presidential candidates reveal that they are atheists. If they just pretend to be Christians (and they don't even have to be very good at pretending), it doesn't seem to be any obstacle to becoming POTUS.

[The Atheist]

Originally Posted by dann

Not if presidential candidates reveal that they are atheists. If they just pretend to be Christians (and they don't even have to be very good at pretending), it doesn't seem to be any obstacle to becoming POTUS.

Yes, you're right - I should have said "self-admitted" atheists.

[MohamedTaqi]

Originally Posted by Thor 2

The mosques in particular will be of interest. The god of Islam demands that men attend every week. After weeks of not fulfilling this obligation and no retribution forthcoming* I wonder if the faith will be shaken?.

I cannot guarantee that, the majority here (in Morocco at least) , don't even pray. Although all of them fast Ramadan, and it is illegal to eat during the day in public.

It is the month of Ramadan now, I am confined at home, I only drink water during the day.

As for faith, only critical and rational thinkers can have their faith shaken. The majority are emotionally biased towards faith, they rationalize anything religious.

[The Atheist]

Originally Posted by MohamedTaqi

I cannot guarantee that, the majority here (in Morocco at least) , don't even pray. Although all of them fast Ramadan, and it is illegal to eat during the day in public.

It is the month of Ramadan now, I am confined at home, I only drink water during the day.

As for faith, only critical and rational thinkers can have their faith shaken. The majority are emotionally biased towards faith, they rationalize anything religious.

Nice to see a new player here - feel free to come and tell us about Morocco's epidemic from on the ground. We have most of the world covered, but no Moroccans, so you'd be very welcome!

[MohamedTaqi]

Originally Posted by The Atheist

Nice to see a new player here - feel free to come and tell us about Morocco's epidemic from on the ground. We have most of the world covered, but no Moroccans, so you'd be very welcome!

Thank you TheAtheist, Best !

I just joined the forum to respond to a Muslim who is promoting Qur'an miracles and such nonsense , and here I stay

[The Atheist]

Originally Posted by MohamedTaqi

Thank you TheAtheist, Best !

Cheers mate - here's the Science/Medical thread if you want to come and join in: http://www.internationalskeptics.com...343585&page=30

Originally Posted by MohamedTaqi

I just joined the forum to respond to a Muslim who is promoting Qur'an miracles and such nonsense , and here I stay

With that attitude, you'll get plenty of support! Good work.

[MohamedTaqi]

Originally Posted by The Atheist

Cheers mate - here's the Science/Medical thread if you want to come and join in: http://www.internationalskeptics.com...343585&page=30



With that attitude, you'll get plenty of support! Good work.

I'll check it out, thank you !

[dann]

Mrs. Betty Bowers, America’s Best Christian:
Thou Shalt Stay the Hell Home (April 7, 2020 – 4:30 min.)

YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.

I AGREE

Mrs. Betty Bowers, America’s Best Christian:
Opening a Country with a Closed Mind (April 27, 2020 – 5 min.)

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I AGREE

Mrs. Betty Bowers, America’s Best Christian:
Viruses Don’t Watch Fox News (March 9, 2020 – 1 min.)

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I AGREE

[dann]

We haven't looked at Scientology yet, have we?

Impact of the 2019-20 coronavirus pandemic on religion: Scientology (Wikipedia)
We Asked the Church of Scientology How They’re Combatting Coronavirus. This Is Their Wild Response. (Daily Beast, April 5, 2020)
'DISASTER ZONES' Tom Cruise ‘has Scientology coronavirus escape bunker as disease threatens to decimate cult living in cramped quarters’ (Sun, April 3, 2020)
Scientology Chief David Miscavige Is a Coronavirus Denier, Says Top Critic (Daily Beast, March 24, 2020)
Church Of Scientology Responds To Requests About Their Coronavirus Pandemic Plans With Threats Of Lawsuits (Inquisitr, April 5, 2020)
How an unseen army of volunteers is steering Utah through disasters (KSL, April 9, 2020)
This one is quite a public-relations victory for the Dianetics dudes: Mayor helps to sanitize the town (Krugersdorp News, April 8, 2020)

[acbytesla]

Originally Posted by MohamedTaqi

I cannot guarantee that, the majority here (in Morocco at least) , don't even pray. Although all of them fast Ramadan, and it is illegal to eat during the day in public.

It is the month of Ramadan now, I am confined at home, I only drink water during the day.

As for faith, only critical and rational thinkers can have their faith shaken. The majority are emotionally biased towards faith, they rationalize anything religious.

What do they do if they catch someone eating?

[rjh01]

Originally Posted by The Atheist

Bit broad on the brush there, mate - there are still lots of places where you can be killed for the wrong belief.

Even in white man's places, a "self-admitted" atheist would still not be able to become president of USA.

This is still a lot better than what it used to be. Not many democratic countries where it is a death sentence to be the wrong religion. I think even in USA things are improving.

[arthwollipot]

Originally Posted by rjh01

This is still a lot better than what it used to be. Not many democratic countries where it is a death sentence to be the wrong religion. I think even in USA things are improving.

In some areas of the USA, things are improving. You have to remember that America isn't a single nation divided into states like Australia is. America is a bunch of more-or-less independent states, who have banded together in certain ways for federal purposes. Some states, like California, are way more progressive than other states, like Alabama.

[dann]

Saturday Night Live (May 10, 2020):
Zoom Church: Congregants attend a virtual church service at Mt. Methuselah Baptist Church (3 min.)

YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.

I AGREE

[8enotto]

One SIL is a active lay person in the RCC here in Mexico.

She has been on call to prepare for "emergency baptisms" and handling prayer/counciling duty for the faithful in the face of the virus crisis.

Never mind she is overweight, diabetic and not in the best of health herself.

Its her calling to step up and do this. She has mentioned small prayer services ( not full mass ) in small local chapels because people needed them.

Where secular knowledge runs short the hope in god fills all gaps. Even if it runs against the general idea of NOT going out and meeting people especially in groups.

I have serious trouble choosing a time when any baptism is sensible, much less an emergency baptism .
But, according to her its been more frequent and keeps the local priest busy.
It may not be business as usual but they are still tending the flock.

[dann]

Links?

[8enotto]

No links exist to a few people setting around a kitchen table, just talking.
This is what she has worked hard to become. I am not aware she has any of it online.

[MohamedTaqi]

Originally Posted by acbytesla

What do they do if they catch someone eating?

If someone is caught eating here during Ramadan, unless they are pregnant, child, physically or mentally ill. They may spend between 1 - 6 months in jail.

Act 222 states : a person commonly known to be Muslim, who violates the fast in a public place during Ramadan, without having one of the justifications allowed in Islam shall be sentenced from one to six months in jail .

But in general, these laws are not applied (most of the time), because authorities tend to ignore smokers or non-fasters. However, one would cause himself trouble, eating during the day in Ramadan is a taboo.

Human right activist attempts are carried out in order to cancel this act.

[The Atheist]

Originally Posted by MohamedTaqi

If someone is caught eating here during Ramadan, unless they are pregnant, child, physically or mentally ill. They may spend between 1 - 6 months in jail.

That's plain crazy.

Probably still better than being caught in Iran, though.

[dann]

Originally Posted by The Atheist

That's plain crazy.

But this isn't:

Originally Posted by MohamedTaqi

But in general, these laws are not applied (most of the time), because authorities tend to ignore smokers or non-fasters. However, one would cause himself trouble, eating during the day in Ramadan is a taboo.

It seems to signal a fairly relaxed attitude. It's not exactly fundamentalist Sharia.
(And I remember when all kinds of entertainment, including sports, were banned on Good Friday. It wasn't in the middle ages, but until 1991 when parliament reasoned that "people weren't particularly Christian anyway.")

Quote:

Probably still better than being caught in Iran, though.

I think you can find countries that are worse than Iran in this respect.

[MohamedTaqi]

Originally Posted by The Atheist

That's plain crazy.

Probably still better than being caught in Iran, though.

Yes, I suppose in Iran nonfasters are being lashed.

https://iranhr.net/en/articles/2909/

We don't have lashes in Morocco, but our authorities can always improvise, it all depends on the person. Human rights are not heaven in our countries. I don't know why people are so easy to provoke in the middle east and north africa.

[MohamedTaqi]

Quote:

It seems to signal a fairly relaxed attitude. It's not exactly fundamentalist Sharia.
(And I remember when all kinds of entertainment, including sports, were banned on Good Friday. It wasn't in the middle ages, but until 1991 when parliament reasoned that "people weren't particularly Christian anyway.")

It seems, but just the fact that "eating" provokes the public sounds stupid enough to laugh at it.

Imagine this fact to see how crazy it is : In Islam, if you insult God you can repent and be forgiven ... If you insult Muhammad, then you can repent, but still you will to be executed.

And this other fact : If you are a non-Muslim, and then convert to Islam, and then leave Islam. you will be given a 3 days chance to repent, or be executed. If you are an ex-muslim from Muslim parents, you will be executed right away (there is no chance to repent).

Fortunately, only few countries still apply this sharia cult.

[MohamedTaqi]

But, just the fact that we are jailed for not fasting, and that this law is not applied most of the time, is a bliss , compared to other countries.

[dann]

This attitude probably also makes it easier to attract tourists.

[dann]

This is the first case of its kind I have heard of in Denmark - of any and all religious groups:
Se videon: Over 30 muslimer var samlet til fællesbøn på en parkeringsplads (BT, May 12, 2020)
Watch the video: More than 30 Muslims gathered in prayer in a parking lot

Since it takes place outdoors, I don't find it particularly disturbing, but a little more distance between the participants would have been advisable - and I can't imagine that the Quran has anything to say about it.

[MohamedTaqi]

Originally Posted by dann

This is the first case of its kind I have heard of in Denmark - of any and all religious groups:
Se videon: Over 30 muslimer var samlet til fællesbøn på en parkeringsplads (BT, May 12, 2020)
Watch the video: More than 30 Muslims gathered in prayer in a parking lot

Since it takes place outdoors, I don't find it particularly disturbing, but a little more distance between the participants would have been advisable - and I can't imagine that the Quran has anything to say about it.

It is not disturbing if they are just 30 people. There are 3 prayers in which our streets become crowded :

- The Friday prayer : every friday ... but it can be done in a mosque.

- The two Eids , Adhaa (sacrifice) and Fitr (opening the fast after Ramadan) : once a year each... can only be done outdoors (even if mosques are empty)


By the way, this is a funny picture, they missed the Kibla (I think this is in Iraq) hhh :

[Minoosh]

Most Muslim women don't cover their faces. That's practiced in only a handful of countries.

[dann]

It's not women, and it's not their faces .... Oh! .... Maybe you aren't talking about the photo?!

[dann]

Originally Posted by MohamedTaqi

It is not disturbing if they are just 30 people.

No, it's not, really. The problem is the context of the corona crisis. People in Denmark aren't supposed to gather in groups of more than 10, for the time being.
And certain political parties in Denmark that would hardly notice if the group consisted of ethnic Danes of the Christian persuasion get terribly upset about even minor transgressions involving Muslim immigrants.

[MohamedTaqi]

Originally Posted by Minoosh

Most Muslim women don't cover their faces. That's practiced in only a handful of countries.

In Morocco, about half women don't cover their hair (Hijab) ... it depends on how religious she or her family are. Some religious and practicing women don't wear it. Sometimes you can even see an atheist who wears a Hijab, simply because it's a tradition in her family.

As for Niqab (face cover), it is okay in some middle eastern countries (like Saudi Arabia, Iraq and Iran, but it has a bad connotation here...

Generally, Moroccans are Maliki Sunni Muslims, which means that their religiosity is a little bit different than that of say Egyptians (Shafii sunni muslims) or Saudis (Hanbali sunni muslims) .

The are still the same religion, but their understanding of Sharia differs on some minimal details.. Maliki are generally more adapted to local traditions than Hanbali or Shafii (who are more likely to stick to salafist and wahabist interpretations).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shafi%...dhhab_Map3.png


That's why you see more Niqab in the middle east, than in north Africa.

[MohamedTaqi]

The reason why face cover (Niqab) has a bad connotation here, is because :

- Some wear it to kidnap a child (last time I saw it in the news was about a year ago).
- Some wear it for begging.
- Some unmarried pregnant women wear it to avoid stigma .
- ...etc

[MohamedTaqi]

Originally Posted by dann

No, it's not, really. The problem is the context of the corona crisis. People in Denmark aren't supposed to gather in groups of more than 10, for the time being.
And certain political parties in Denmark that would hardly notice if the group consisted of ethnic Danes of the Christian persuasion get terribly upset about even minor transgressions involving Muslim immigrants.

In that case, it is disturbing to see 30 people in one place, in Morocco mosques are closed, and people cannot do that, even if it is Ramadan.

If 30 people gather here, they would be fined and jailed. Only one person per household is allowed to go out during the day (After 19:00, it is forbidden to go outdoors).

We still don't know whether this quarantine will end on 20th May , or that the government will extand it to the 20th of June.