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Old 9th November 2010, 02:18 AM   #1
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Dyatlovs pass - A true mystery?

Has anyone read about this? I have a theory of how its possible and im sure you lot will have some. But its an intresting read

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dyatlov_Pass_incident
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Old 9th November 2010, 03:15 AM   #2
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"missing her tongue"?

That seems an oddly uninformative way of putting it - as though tongues were things that could just go missing?

Cut out? Torn out? Eaten away?

Or bitten off - by herself
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Old 9th November 2010, 03:26 AM   #3
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This was discussed, with theories, not too long ago. It's an interesting story.

http://www.internationalskeptics.com...d.php?t=181138
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Old 9th November 2010, 04:03 AM   #4
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I've not looked at the previous thread yet, but just looking at the Wiki page everything except the unconfirmed radiation levels and discolouration of the skin could be accounted for by hypothermia and three of the dead being caught in an avalanche.
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Old 9th November 2010, 04:12 AM   #5
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I wouldn't say that was a good discussion. Thats just an example of how this place does not discuss anything that they can't explain... people just say "crop circles" etc. Typical. People make assumptions that there is a logical explanation rather than actually trying to find out a logical answer.

since when is "was probably hypothermia and an avalance" or "You can't trust reports" an answer? Its not. They are just dismissing things they don't or cant answer rather than trying to figure out the answer.
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Old 9th November 2010, 04:14 AM   #6
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Agatha, that does not account for everything. Why did some flee from the tent barely clothed? Hypothermia isn't an answer for this. Also explain their actions after leaving the tent? Again hypothermia isn't a proper explanation for this.

I don't believe its a paranormal event. Infact i'm pretty sure i have worked out the answer. However like a proper skeptic i looked into it and didn't just pluck some random conclusion out of the air. Like all you other so called skeptics.
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Old 9th November 2010, 04:19 AM   #7
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Originally Posted by mushy View Post
Agatha, that does not account for everything. Why did some flee from the tent barely clothed? Hypothermia isn't an answer for this. Also explain their actions after leaving the tent? Again hypothermia isn't a proper explanation for this.

I don't believe its a paranormal event. Infact i'm pretty sure i have worked out the answer. However like a proper skeptic i looked into it and didn't just pluck some random conclusion out of the air. Like all you other so called skeptics.
Let's hear it.
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Old 9th November 2010, 04:23 AM   #8
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Hypothermia is indeed a possible answer to why they left the tent; people with hypothermia can and do leave relatively warm places, divest themselves of their clothing and behave irrationally to the point of putting themselves and others in danger.

The wiki article talks of a trail of footprints but I can't find (I'd welcome correction if necessary) a reference to whether the campers were "fleeing" which implies haste, or merely walking.

What actions after they left the tent could not be accounted for by hypothermia? I've only read the article you referenced, so if you have more information I'd be interested in seeing that.

You don't need to be aggressive, it's a discussion, not a competition.
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Old 9th November 2010, 05:13 AM   #9
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Agatha beat me to it, but hypothermia can indeed lead to paradoxical undressing.
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Old 9th November 2010, 05:17 AM   #10
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Originally Posted by mushy View Post
I wouldn't say that was a good discussion. Thats just an example of how this place does not discuss anything that they can't explain... people just say "crop circles" etc. Typical. People make assumptions that there is a logical explanation rather than actually trying to find out a logical answer.

since when is "was probably hypothermia and an avalance" or "You can't trust reports" an answer? Its not. They are just dismissing things they don't or cant answer rather than trying to figure out the answer.
It can't be explained because we can't examine the evidence. It must be taken on trust.
You want random hypothesis? I can suggest several:- argument within the group over route finding, a fire at night destroyed one tent and some clothes. (They had only one tent for all those people?) . They left camp and went a short way to check out a route, leaving one person to watch the gear. The locals showed up, attacked the camp guard and fled with as much gear as they could carry. Realising there would be a government investigation, they then waited till the survivors were asleep and suffocated them.
Are such ideas daft?"No", in that they do not require yetis or aliens; "yes" in that I have nothing to go on.
What do you expect? Miracles? We don't even believe in those here, far less perform them.
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Old 9th November 2010, 05:22 AM   #11
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Mushy, what's your take on it?
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Old 9th November 2010, 05:25 AM   #12
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Old 9th November 2010, 05:34 AM   #13
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Quote:
The wiki article talks of a trail of footprints but I can't find (I'd welcome correction if necessary) a reference to whether the campers were "fleeing" which implies haste, or merely walking.
They cut their tent open from inside to calmly walk out?
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Old 9th November 2010, 05:39 AM   #14
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I've only read the Wiki article (and not really in depth) and have yet to go to the sources. To be honest, I may never go to those sources because none of them are even close to primary. (Interestingly, mushy, one of the links is to a discussion of paradoxical undressing; you might have checked this before claiming hypothermia could not account for the hikers' behavior, particularly since it is addressed in the article itself).

So the sources are insufficient to make any sort of reliable determination. In addition, there are a couple of suspicious remarks in the Wiki itself which make me question the base account.

1. Clothing from four of the victims was found to have "substantial levels of radiation." Why was this even checked? Perhaps there is something I don't know about investigations into such deaths, but checking for radiation does not seem to be standard for this. Please correct me if I am wrong. If it isn't standard, that means the investigators had an external reason to check for it, which means the radiation had a plausible explanation already. Frankly, this strikes me as one of those "facts" that gets added later to the story and becomes part of the lore as it is repeated in later, poorly researched accounts. I could be wrong, though.

2. The article mentions that the idea of natives attacking the hikers was discarded because only the footprints of the hikers were found near the bodies. I doubt this even more than I doubt the radiation--not that only the hikers' footprints were found but that any were found at all. The incident happened as early as February 1st, though the Wiki does not state a specific date. The first bodies were found on February 26th, the last on May 4th. I contend that no footprints would have survived the intervening time and that this tidbit (only the hikers' footprints were found) is another one added by sensationalists later.

3. In the section called "Controversy Surrounding Investigation" the article says another group of hikers saw "strange orange spheres in the night sky" on the night of the incident. Bull. We don't know the night of the incident; there is no source given for this and no indication that these spheres were reported before knowledge of the incident was made public.

I'll give you another plausible explanation, though I've no evidence for it: The details that make this mysterious didn't occur as reported. Who is open minded enough to accept this as a possibility?
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Old 9th November 2010, 05:41 AM   #15
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Originally Posted by mushy View Post
They cut their tent open from inside to calmly walk out?
Check the symptoms of hypothermia. Among them you will find confusion, irrationality, and poor judgment.
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Old 9th November 2010, 05:41 AM   #16
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Also while hypothermia can make you feel warmer. Please show where it has made people feel so warm that they cut themselves out of a tent and ran into the cold... Then when in the cold tried to re dress themselves. Did the hypothemia stop and suddenly they felt cold and decided to build a fire and scavange clothes? Again makes no sense. But it sounds logical so you lot just accept it.
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Old 9th November 2010, 05:44 AM   #17
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Skeptoid #108: Mystery at Dyatlov Pass
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Old 9th November 2010, 05:44 AM   #18
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Originally Posted by mushy View Post
Also while hypothermia can make you feel warmer. Please show where it has made people feel so warm that they cut themselves out of a tent and ran into the cold... Then when in the cold tried to re dress themselves. Did the hypothemia stop and suddenly they felt cold and decided to build a fire and scavange clothes
Sure.
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Old 9th November 2010, 05:46 AM   #19
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1) I believe that the radiation may have been checked because of the way the bodies were found. I.e orangish with grey hair. There were also reports of light in the sky that night. (I don't believe this is anything paranormal, but is a reasonable explination why they would have checked radiation levels. Plus this was soviet russia)

2) The lack of footprints isn't how i would discount natives. Its the nature of the injuries. Plus a bunch of native mountain russians randomly killing hikers isn't logical.

3) I agree, this has nothing to do with what happened.


4) Or maybe they did happen and you are just dismissing them because it would take to much effort to find out what actually happened.
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Old 9th November 2010, 05:48 AM   #20
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Originally Posted by gph View Post
Thanks for the link. I was holding back from saying it, but avalanche was my first thought for the crushed skulls and ribs.

I still hold my initial objection to the radiation finding, though. The link provides plausible explanations for it, but still provides no sources that it was actually found as opposed to added later.
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Old 9th November 2010, 05:49 AM   #21
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The wiki article statesd that the tent was badly damaged, it doesn't say that the hikers cut it from the inside, nor that they ran into the cold. If you have primary sources that do state this, please post them. At the moment, you are adding your opinion (about them running, about them redressing, about them being the ones to damage the tent and how it was damaged) to the few facts that are known.

ETA and you are adding your opinion that people suffering from hypothermia act rationally and make rational decisions, they don't. That's why it's such a killer.
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Old 9th November 2010, 05:49 AM   #22
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Originally Posted by Garrette View Post
Check the symptoms of hypothermia. Among them you will find confusion, irrationality, and poor judgment.
Lol no. If you are warm you might strip off or turn off the fire. You don't leave the fire burning cut open your tent and run off. Then when you run off explain why they stoped taking off clothes, tried to build another fire and gather clothes off the dead?

Thats not what happened. You just arn't a real skeptic because you don't want to know what happened you just want to dismiss anything you can't explain with anything that is even remotely possible.
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Old 9th November 2010, 05:51 AM   #23
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Originally Posted by Agatha View Post
The wiki article statesd that the tent was badly damaged, it doesn't say that the hikers cut it from the inside, nor that they raninto the cold. If you have primary sources that do state this, please post them. At the moment, you are adding your opinion (about them running, about them redressing, about them being the ones to damage the tent and how it was damaged) to the few facts that are known.
I read more than just wikipedia when researching something. I'm not going to do it for you. However if you would actually look you would find the references you are looking for.
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Old 9th November 2010, 05:53 AM   #24
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Old 9th November 2010, 05:53 AM   #25
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Originally Posted by mushy View Post
1) I believe that the radiation may have been checked because of the way the bodies were found. I.e orangish with grey hair. There were also reports of light in the sky that night. (I don't believe this is anything paranormal, but is a reasonable explination why they would have checked radiation levels. Plus this was soviet russia)
That's plausible, assuming the orange-skin reporting is accurate, too, and that, if true, is unusual. I have no idea what the expected color of skin for someone frozen for weeks in the snow would be.


Originally Posted by mushy
2) The lack of footprints isn't how i would discount natives. Its the nature of the injuries. Plus a bunch of native mountain russians randomly killing hikers isn't logical.
My point in bringing up the footprints is not to reintroduce natives as a possible explanation (though they cannot be discounted; logical doesn't come into play when determining human actions in extreme conditions). Rather, it was to point out that the account of the mystery had been hyperbolized with mysterious details added after the fact. I stand by that.


Originally Posted by mushy
3) I agree, this has nothing to do with what happened.
Nice to hear.


Originally Posted by mushy
4) Or maybe they did happen and you are just dismissing them because it would take to much effort to find out what actually happened.
1. What effort did you expend before dismissing the orange spheres as an explanation?

2. Not my job to dismiss anything. If you or anyone else wants to say "X happened" then the requirement for effort falls to you. If, instead, you are simply saying "We don't know what happened," then no effort is required, and no assumption of anything non-mundane is required.
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Old 9th November 2010, 05:57 AM   #26
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From my research i was able to determine that the people with orange skin were infact the ones that had been left exposed to the sun for a prolonged period of time. This exposure to the elements was also the most likely cause of the grey hair aswell.

When i say exposure. I mean after they are dead.
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Old 9th November 2010, 05:58 AM   #27
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I'm at work, I may chase down some primary sources this evening if you can convince me I'll find anything new in them. I've now looked at the skeptoid article to which gph linked.

I don't KNOW what happened, but so far I have seen nothing that leads me to suspect there is anything other than a mundane explanation.

What do you think happened, mushy?
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Old 9th November 2010, 06:00 AM   #28
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Quote:
1. What effort did you expend before dismissing the orange spheres as an explanation?
I did not look into ufo's etc. But i looked into it being a military operation which would have been plausable during the era.. Maybe testing bombs (radiation) the force of which may have caused the injuries etc..

However i found that there was nothing to back this up.
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Old 9th November 2010, 06:03 AM   #29
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Originally Posted by mushy View Post
Lol no.
Not lol. Yes.
Originally Posted by mushy
If you are warm you might strip off or turn off the fire. You don't leave the fire burning cut open your tent and run off. Then when you run off explain why they stoped taking off clothes, tried to build another fire and gather clothes off the dead?
While I am not well versed on the Dyatlova Pass incident, I am quite knowledgeable regarding hypothermia. Your speculations here are simply unfounded and indicate you have done nothing to educate yourself on it.


Originally Posted by mushy
Thats not what happened.
What's not what happened? The Wiki article doesn't list the activities you just did; I didn't list the activities you just listed. You are saying "Hah! You didn't say that X happened and neither did anybody else when in fact X did not happen therefore you are wrong."


Originally Posted by mushy
You just arn't a real skeptic
Do I have to turn in my Real Skeptic Card and Real Skeptic Teddy Bear?


Originally Posted by mushy
because you don't want to know what happened
For this incident? That's actually true. It is not interesting enough to warrant any more attention than these few minutes I'm spending on it. I also don't want to know what you had for breakfast, what the real housewives of Atlanta are doing today, what Alex Jones has to say about 9/11, or how sphygnomanometers work.


Originally Posted by mushy
you just want to dismiss anything you can't explain with anything that is even remotely possible.
Please tell me anything that I have dismissed in this thread. I have stated my doubt in three aspects of the story as presented by Wiki, but as neither Wiki nor you have provided any sources for those aspects, it isn't a dismissal as much as it is a reasoned doubt.
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Old 9th November 2010, 06:05 AM   #30
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Originally Posted by mushy View Post
I did not look into ufo's etc. But i looked into it being a military operation which would have been plausable during the era.. Maybe testing bombs (radiation) the force of which may have caused the injuries etc..

However i found that there was nothing to back this up.
I'm interested in how you looked into this. Can you point me to your sources that led you to discard military operations?
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Old 9th November 2010, 06:05 AM   #31
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Originally Posted by mushy View Post
I did not look into ufo's etc. But i looked into it being a military operation which would have been plausable during the era.. Maybe testing bombs (radiation) the force of which may have caused the injuries etc..

However i found that there was nothing to back this up.
Perhaps you could tell us how you researched this. Some of us might think you just read a cracked.com article.
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Old 9th November 2010, 06:07 AM   #32
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Its not worth looking at. I read the skeptiod article a while ago. Its been over a year since i looked into it. I think my explination basically went along the same lines.

2 Groups. One goes ahead for whatever reason. They set up camp while the others are still making their way up to camp. An avalanche goes off. Swipes the people still outside down into the forest causing their injuries and burying them with snow.

The ones in the tent hear the avalance. cut open the tent and attempt to escape fearing they may get caught in it. Some reports suggest they left a torch on top of the tent in order to find their way back. They struggle to put on any clothes as they run out to escape the avalance.

They make it to safety and then try to build a fire to keep warm. Some die, others take their clothes and eventually they try to make it back to the tent. Some get closer than others. However all die.
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Old 9th November 2010, 06:13 AM   #33
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An entirely plausible scenario, mushy, but no more plausible than any other mundane explanation. It also assumes the tent was cut open from the inside which, as Agatha pointed out, is not a claim in the original story.

That said, it is a shame you cannot share your sources on the military operations research.

Final question: Why did you not check into the possibility of UFOs? Are you a true skeptic or not?
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Old 9th November 2010, 06:16 AM   #34
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Originally Posted by mushy View Post
Its not worth looking at. I read the skeptiod article a while ago. Its been over a year since i looked into it. I think my explination basically went along the same lines.

2 Groups. One goes ahead for whatever reason. They set up camp while the others are still making their way up to camp. An avalanche goes off. Swipes the people still outside down into the forest causing their injuries and burying them with snow.

The ones in the tent hear the avalance. cut open the tent and attempt to escape fearing they may get caught in it. Some reports suggest they left a torch on top of the tent in order to find their way back. They struggle to put on any clothes as they run out to escape the avalance.

They make it to safety and then try to build a fire to keep warm. Some die, others take their clothes and eventually they try to make it back to the tent. Some get closer than others. However all die.
So, in fact, hypothermia and an avalanche.
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Old 9th November 2010, 06:20 AM   #35
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Originally Posted by mushy View Post
Lol no. If you are warm you might strip off or turn off the fire. You don't leave the fire burning cut open your tent and run off. Then when you run off explain why they stoped taking off clothes, tried to build another fire and gather clothes off the dead?
If someone is warm, maybe.
If someone has hypothermia, then it becomes much more difficult to presume anything about behaviour, or to dismiss possibilities as you have done.

I'm reading "South: The story of Shackleton's 1914-1917 expedition" and he makes several references to the known symptoms of hypothermia and the unusual and apparently contradictory way it makes sufferers behave - including stripping off, and acting irrationally.
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Old 9th November 2010, 06:32 AM   #36
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I agree that it can make you feel warm and strip off. However what i am saying is that does not explain the way they left in a hurry. Show me a case where someone felt so hot that they needed to go for a stroll in the snow with no clothes on in the middle of the night. Thats what get me about here. You try to argue these points instead of admiting you may be wrong. Looking back now, isn't my explaination more plausable that thinking they were really warm and running down a mountain naked?
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Old 9th November 2010, 06:36 AM   #37
mushy
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Gar, I am in work now. I will try to find the sites i got the info from later. However you will have to translate them yourself. I work with alot of interpreters because i deal with alot of foreign nationals. I got them to help me translate the russian.
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Old 9th November 2010, 06:41 AM   #38
chillzero
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Originally Posted by mushy View Post
I agree that it can make you feel warm and strip off. However what i am saying is that does not explain the way they left in a hurry. Show me a case where someone felt so hot that they needed to go for a stroll in the snow with no clothes on in the middle of the night.
You don't know what happened - whether they felt the need for a stroll, or ran around hysterically, or how they felt at all - cold or warm. There are no witnesses to speak to the events of these deaths. There's a lot of speculation, but no evidence that determines definitively what happened.

Originally Posted by mushy View Post
You try to argue these points instead of admiting you may be wrong.
What am I wrong about? I have made no claims. All I did was point out to you that your limited understanding of hypothermia may be leading you to make erroneous assertions.
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Old 9th November 2010, 06:56 AM   #39
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How can you people be bothered to talk this day in and out? Challenging everything no matter how pointless all while being sure never to say anything that would allow someone to challenge you. The mindset on here is bizzare.

Plus also the contradictions between memebers is so obvious. When talking to creationists... "If there is a murder and you have dna evidence, a balistics match on a gun found in the persons house etc then are you saying you can't convict him because there is no eyewitnesses"

but then turning round and saying

"There are no witnesses to speak to the events of these deaths."

You people just want to argue. You will say anything to keep an argument going.
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Old 9th November 2010, 06:56 AM   #40
Garrette
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Originally Posted by mushy View Post
I agree that it can make you feel warm and strip off. However what i am saying is that does not explain the way they left in a hurry. Show me a case where someone felt so hot that they needed to go for a stroll in the snow with no clothes on in the middle of the night.
You realize, don't you, that you are behaving exactly like those who defend psychic claims. "Well, of course, in those circumstances a mundane explanation is possible, but in this case the psychic was in these slightly different uncontrolled circumstances and happened to be wearing a blue shirt instead of a red one." You might call it a No True Scotsman fallacy.

That said, demonstrate to me that the hikers in the tent cut their way out and ran off, and then I may oblige. That part of your scenario is pure speculation.

It also has not escaped my attention that you admitted no error regarding your misconceptions of hypothermia. You simply slip an agreement in here that hypothermia can make you feel warmer and slip off without acknowledging that you had to be corrected into that position.


Originally Posted by mushy
Thats what get me about here. You try to argue these points instead of admiting you may be wrong.
Wrong about what? Where did I say "Hypothermia is the answer?" Nothing I have said about hypothermia is incorrect.

Originally Posted by mushy
Looking back now, isn't my explaination more plausable that thinking they were really warm and running down a mountain naked?
No. It is no less plausible, either.
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