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Old 2nd February 2021, 04:56 PM   #41
Minoosh
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
I already addressed this aspect above (see post #18 above).

The fact remains that there is no point in posting this question in a religion section if you are not interested in the religious POV.
Religion and philosophy.

ETA: But, the OP did bring religion into it so maybe this is more R than P.

As I understand it forgiveness is more about the wellbeing of the person holding the grudge, not as a get-out-of-jail free card jerks who have wronged you.

Last edited by Minoosh; 2nd February 2021 at 05:05 PM.
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Old 2nd February 2021, 06:05 PM   #42
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Originally Posted by ynot View Post
Saying “I forgive you” is essentially saying “I’m better than you”.

Why would be people want to be insulted?

Yes that is an interesting way to look at it. I think those who claim the ability to forgive are trying to be seen as having a higher morality than others.

Personally I think forgiveness is BS. I think after time ones feeling of being wronged by another may lose intensity unless it is repeated. I tend to give a fair bit of leeway to others and judge not too severely, that which may be seen as bad behaviour towards me. If it is repeated and any ambiguity is lost I cut them off. No forgiveness from me.
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Old 2nd February 2021, 06:41 PM   #43
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
The Christian God can forgive even the unforgivable.
Prove the Christian God actually exists before you claim you know it can do the logically impossible.

You won't and can't do that of course. Perhaps you could simply provide an example of something that's "unforgivable"?

I bet you can't!
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Old 2nd February 2021, 07:39 PM   #44
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Originally Posted by ynot View Post
You don't think that regularly happens?

I know it does. I’m just saying I wouldn’t forgive my wife just because she said she loved me. My forgiveness would involve some penance on her part...let’s just leave it at that.
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Old 2nd February 2021, 07:42 PM   #45
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Originally Posted by ynot View Post
Prove the Christian God actually exists before you claim you know it can do the logically impossible.

You won't and can't do that of course. Perhaps you could simply provide an example of something that's "unforgivable"?

I bet you can't!

I read that in the sense of “unforgivable in mortal terms.” Murder, child abuse, etc. In the Christian world, nothing is unforgivable by god because he is the avatar of love and goodness or something like that.
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Old 2nd February 2021, 07:45 PM   #46
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Originally Posted by xjx388 View Post
I know it does. I’m just saying I wouldn’t forgive my wife just because she said she loved me. My forgiveness would involve some penance on her part...let’s just leave it at that.

Would seem to be a tainted version of forgiveness.

Our penal system seems to be based on this...... Do this amount of time and you will be forgiven.
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Old 2nd February 2021, 07:59 PM   #47
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Forgiving a debt isn't the same as agreeing to the possibility of future loans. That's basic, pragmatism.

But it does mean not griefing the guy over the debt now forgiven. You want to renew your relationship with your brother? You forgive him. You don't necessarily trust him the way you did before the breach. But you also don't punch him in the face with his past transgressions, either.

The OP is basically arguing for the moral latitude to be a dick to someone ad infinitum, if that's how you feel.

Forgiveness is about mastering your feelings and choosing to change the basis of a relationship.
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Old 2nd February 2021, 07:59 PM   #48
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Originally Posted by xjx388 View Post
I read that in the sense of “unforgivable in mortal terms.” Murder, child abuse, etc. In the Christian world, nothing is unforgivable by god because he is the avatar of love and goodness or something like that.
Blaspheming the Holy Spirit is the only unforgivable sin, if memory serves. I could Google that but am going to hell anyway, so meh.
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Old 2nd February 2021, 08:03 PM   #49
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Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
Would seem to be a tainted version of forgiveness.

Our penal system seems to be based on this...... Do this amount of time and you will be forgiven.

I don’t know about tainted...I think most people would agree, in their personal lives, with something along the lines of “saying your sorry is meaningless, you have to show that your sorry.” “Showing,” can mean different things to different people but in general, we expect people who wrong us to make it right somehow. I’d be very surprised if I’m the only one who feels that way.
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Old 2nd February 2021, 09:11 PM   #50
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Originally Posted by xjx388 View Post
I read that in the sense of “unforgivable in mortal terms.” Murder, child abuse, etc.
Why do you think "Murder, child abuse, etc." aren't forgivable in mortal terms? Many mortals have claimed to have forgiven such things (invariably god believers trying to score brownie points with their imaginary sky-daddy).

Originally Posted by xjx388 View Post
In the Christian world, nothing is unforgivable by god because he is the avatar of love and goodness or something like that.
In the Christian world, nothing is impossible to god because he is the ultimate wizard of magic and miracles. Even things that are impossible, like forgiving the impossible to forgive (unforgivable), are possible (or something like that).
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Old 2nd February 2021, 09:17 PM   #51
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Blaspheming the Holy Spirit is the only unforgivable sin, if memory serves. I could Google that but am going to hell anyway, so meh.
Yep. Seems this imaginary god has unforgivable sins according to the fairy story (Luke 12:10 and Mark 3:29), but mere mortal (and stupid) humans can forgive anything and everything.

But claiming what any god can or can't do is pointless unless and until there's some credible evidence any god actually exists outside of emotional fantasies. First "burden of proof" hurdle failure.
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Old 2nd February 2021, 09:37 PM   #52
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
The OP is basically arguing for the moral latitude to be a dick to someone ad infinitum, if that's how you feel.
Dishonest strawman.
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Old 3rd February 2021, 11:12 AM   #53
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Originally Posted by Minoosh View Post
As I understand it forgiveness is more about the wellbeing of the person holding the grudge, not as a get-out-of-jail free card jerks who have wronged you.
No doubt, the meaning of the word "forgiveness" was bound to come up for debate.

To forgive a debt is to declare that the debtor no longer owes you any money. To forgive a wrong doer is minimally to declare that the wrong doer is no longer subject to punishment for the wrong they did to you. I might go further and suggest that it means that the (former) wrong doer has the same status as somebody who never did that wrong to you.
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Old 3rd February 2021, 12:57 PM   #54
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Originally Posted by ynot View Post
Saying “I forgive you” is essentially saying “I’m better than you”.

Why would be people want to be insulted?
Heh. That's what a relative told me when I told them I forgave them. The response was, who do you think you are to offer me forgiveness!?
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Old 3rd February 2021, 12:59 PM   #55
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Originally Posted by xjx388 View Post
And to add to the religious angle a little: I've never understood the Christian denominations that preach about Salvation by Faith Alone -that you are saved/forgiven if you simply accept Christ as your savior. I think the Catholic version where you have to confess your sins and then do pennance makes more sense. I think the Buddhist/Hindu version where you incur karmic debt that you must pay off in the next incarnation also makes more sense.

I don't mean "makes more sense," in that it's any kind of reflection of reality, I just mean that it more closely aligns with what I understand forgiveness to mean. I mean, it makes no sense that god would be angry with you for sinning but gives you a pass because you profess acceptance of Christ as savior. Just as it would make no sense to forgive my wife for cheating on me just because she says she loves me.

One reason Martin Luther railed against the Catholic Church was because he considered it corrupt for priests to demand payment in exchange for penance. In his day, people had to even pay a priest to get a newly-deceased loved one out of purgatory.
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Old 3rd February 2021, 01:02 PM   #56
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
My understanding is that this is the 'if' part of an if/then.

Jesus said somewhere in there, if you love me, keep my commandments. Its that second part, the 'then' thing, that gets swept under the rug.
That would have been about redemption. Jesus' sacrifice was his paying ransom to save people from death.
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Old 3rd February 2021, 01:02 PM   #57
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Heh. That's what a relative told me when I told them I forgave them. The response was, who do you think you are to offer me forgiveness!?
"I forgive you" can be as condescending as "I will pray for you".
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Old 3rd February 2021, 01:05 PM   #58
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Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
Yes that is an interesting way to look at it. I think those who claim the ability to forgive are trying to be seen as having a higher morality than others.

Personally I think forgiveness is BS. I think after time ones feeling of being wronged by another may lose intensity unless it is repeated. I tend to give a fair bit of leeway to others and judge not too severely, that which may be seen as bad behaviour towards me. If it is repeated and any ambiguity is lost I cut them off. No forgiveness from me.
I must say I was utterly amazed when the close relative of one of the victims of Dylann Roof - who killed members of a Black congregation out of race hatred - said they forgave him (well, one of them did). Wow. That must be the hardest type of forgiveness of all.
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Old 3rd February 2021, 01:07 PM   #59
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
That would have been about redemption. Jesus' sacrifice was his paying ransom to save people from death eternal torture in Hell.
ftfy
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Old 3rd February 2021, 01:09 PM   #60
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Originally Posted by ynot View Post
Dishonest strawman.
That's silly. What reason would I have to lie about my interpretation of the OP?
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Old 3rd February 2021, 01:09 PM   #61
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Originally Posted by ynot View Post
Prove the Christian God actually exists before you claim you know it can do the logically impossible.

You won't and can't do that of course. Perhaps you could simply provide an example of something that's "unforgivable"?

I bet you can't!
It's metaphysics. Plato named the virtues as being wisdom, temperance, courage and justice. There are also the concepts of truth and beauty.

We all know what these abstract terms are but how to prove them?


Prove there is such a thing as truth or beauty? You simply cannot. All you can do is point to consensus.

It doesn't follow therefore that these things do not exist.
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Old 3rd February 2021, 01:11 PM   #62
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
I must say I was utterly amazed when the close relative of one of the victims of Dylann Roof - who killed members of a Black congregation out of race hatred - said they forgave him (well, one of them did). Wow. That must be the hardest type of forgiveness of all.
Saying it doesn't mean doing it. I've always wondered how many that've told me "I will pray for you" actually ever did. I suspect very few, if any at all.
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Old 3rd February 2021, 01:16 PM   #63
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Originally Posted by ynot View Post
"I forgive you" can be as condescending as "I will pray for you".
Well, it takes the wind out of their sails if they are screwed up with anger and bitterness and play bloody-minded games. Instead of getting one to fight them they are disarmed.
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Old 3rd February 2021, 01:17 PM   #64
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Originally Posted by ynot View Post
Prove the Christian God actually exists before you claim you know it can do the logically impossible.
The Christian God, as described in Christian theology, can forgive the unforgivable. Proving his existence isn't necessary to discuss the attributes attributed to him by the mythology.

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You won't and can't do that of course.
Of course. Luckily it's irrelevant to the point I was making.

Quote:
Perhaps you could simply provide an example of something that's "unforgivable"?
The entire point of the NT is that every sin, from the greatest to the least, is unforgivable, but that God has arranged a way to forgive them all anyway.

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I bet you can't!
Weird flex but okay.
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Old 3rd February 2021, 01:17 PM   #65
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
That's silly. What reason would I have to lie about my interpretation of the OP?
To make someone you don't agree with and who challenges your beliefs look worse than they in fact are. Ad hominem personal attack as a means of self defense.
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Old 3rd February 2021, 01:21 PM   #66
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Originally Posted by ynot View Post
ftfy
Ecclesiastes 7 :: NIV. ... the day of death [is] better than the day of birth.


Atheists go through life thinking death is the end. Full stop. Period. But how do they know? All the great mystics warn that death is not the end. So you die and , oh heck, I've lived a life of wanton debauchery...I wish I'd been more perceptive and been prepared for all of this...
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Old 3rd February 2021, 01:25 PM   #67
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
The Christian God, as described in Christian theology, can forgive the unforgivable. Proving his existence isn't necessary to discuss the attributes attributed to him by the mythology.
Are you claiming that the Christian God is mere mythology to you?
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Old 3rd February 2021, 01:30 PM   #68
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Originally Posted by ynot View Post
To make someone you don't agree with and who challenges your beliefs look worse than they in fact are. Ad hominem personal attack as a means of self defense.
That's a terrible reason to lie. It's not a reason I have to lie. And it begs the question that I did lie. Which I didn't.
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Old 3rd February 2021, 01:36 PM   #69
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Originally Posted by xjx388 View Post
... I think the Buddhist/Hindu version where you incur karmic debt that you must pay off in the next incarnation also makes more sense.
That's used to justify all sorts of social inequity though.

Rich man thinks he was born into a rich family because of all the good he did in the previous life. Your birth into a rich family is your karmic reward - you deserve it and should enjoy it.

Poor person was born into a poor family due to bad things he did in previous life. Your birth into poverty is your karmic punishment - you deserve it and should suffer to pay for the bad things you did in the previous life.

Under this concept, each got what they deserve. Their social standing is reward/punishment for previous lives, and thus there is no need to address the inequality. If anything, it entrenches social division, as each group is living the life god intended for them. The rich punish the poor because god intended that the poor be punished, as evidenced by their low birth. The poor serve the rich because the rich deserve such wealth, as evidenced by god placing those souls into well-borne families.

One can find any number of Hindus who cite this sort of nonsense as justification for the caste system. Not all Hindu by any stretch, but the concept is certainly out there.

Then there is the concept of sins being passed on to children - part of the reason for baptism, to forgive those sins and allow a child to enter life with a clean slate regardless of the sins of the parents.

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Old 3rd February 2021, 01:40 PM   #70
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
I must say I was utterly amazed when the close relative of one of the victims of Dylann Roof - who killed members of a Black congregation out of race hatred - said they forgave him (well, one of them did). Wow. That must be the hardest type of forgiveness of all.

Do you believe the sincerity of that forgiveness however. Could it be just posing as a good Christian, to impress others, and to impress God himself of course. We all know how gullible Jesus pop is don't we?
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Old 3rd February 2021, 01:55 PM   #71
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Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
Do you believe the sincerity of that forgiveness however. Could it be just posing as a good Christian, to impress others, and to impress God himself of course. We all know how gullible Jesus pop is don't we?
IIRC she was a very close relative, a mother, or similar and she was obviously in deep grief having witnessed a random meaningless murder in a church service. Most of the survivors declined to answer that question, one said, never, but this person said she forgave Roof. I think it was sincere. It was her solution to dealing with the anger and the pain.

ETA: Here's a link:

Quote:
The relatives of people slain inside the historic African American church in Charleston, S.C., earlier this week were able to speak directly to the accused gunman Friday at his first court appearance.

One by one, those who chose to speak at a bond hearing did not turn to anger. Instead, while he remained impassive, they offered him forgiveness and said they were praying for his soul, even as they described the pain of their losses.

“I forgive you,” Nadine Collier, the daughter of 70-year-old Ethel Lance, said at the hearing, her voice breaking with emotion. “You took something very precious from me. I will never talk to her again. I will never, ever hold her again. But I forgive you. And have mercy on your soul.”
This other witness couldn't quite say it:

Quote:
Felicia Sanders spoke about her son, Tywanza Sanders, who was killed.

“We welcomed you Wednesday night in our Bible study with welcome arms,” said Felicia Sanders, her voice trembling. “Tywanza Sanders was my son. But Tywanza Sanders was my hero. Tywanza was my hero….May God have mercy on you.”
WASHINGTON POST


Question: Could you forgive such a crime?
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Old 3rd February 2021, 02:21 PM   #72
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Question: Could you forgive such a crime?
Answer: I could say I forgive such a crime, even if I couldn't in reality, as could anyone.
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Old 3rd February 2021, 02:33 PM   #73
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Originally Posted by ynot View Post
Answer: I could say I forgive such a crime, even if I couldn't in reality, as could anyone.
What would forgiving be for you, in reality? How would it be different from just saying it?
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Old 3rd February 2021, 02:48 PM   #74
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
What would forgiving be for you, in reality? How would it be different from just saying it?
I'm not defining forgiveness as being "just saying it", are you?

I'm saying it's something anyone can just say they're doing without actually doing it (regardless of how it's defined).
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Old 3rd February 2021, 02:54 PM   #75
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Originally Posted by ynot View Post
I'm not defining forgiveness as being "just saying it", are you?

I'm saying it's something anyone can just say they're doing without actually doing it (regardless of how it's defined).
Do you think it's something anyone can do, whether they say it or not?

Is it something you can do, regardless of how you define it?

How do you define it for yourself?
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Old 3rd February 2021, 03:05 PM   #76
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Heh. That's what a relative told me when I told them I forgave them. The response was, who do you think you are to offer me forgiveness!?

You were using "forgive" literally, so that's understandable. You know how people sometimes say "forgive me" entirely figuratively, though? Stream-of-thought-ish-ly, your post reminded me of this debate between HRC and the orange horror. She's moving up on to the platform, and there's DJT blocking her way, so she says "Pardon me", as she attempts to pass by him. And he tells her, "We'll see."

This probably belongs in the "Trump's Accomplishments" thread. Man does have a rough and ready wit, or at least one single instance of it.
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Old 3rd February 2021, 03:08 PM   #77
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Originally Posted by crescent View Post
That's used to justify all sorts of social inequity though.

...

Then there is the concept of sins being passed on to children - part of the reason for baptism, to forgive those sins and allow a child to enter life with a clean slate regardless of the sins of the parents.
It seems that there is a dilemma between making sense and practicality. Christian concept of reward/punishment of the afterlife is more motivating but doesn't make much sense. The afterlife in eastern religions usually makes more sense but seems to lack motivational power.
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Old 3rd February 2021, 03:26 PM   #78
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Why does the forgiven even need to know? I don't think I'd tell someone that I forgave them. It would be for me, not them.

Last edited by Minoosh; 3rd February 2021 at 03:26 PM. Reason: typo
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Old 3rd February 2021, 03:45 PM   #79
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Originally Posted by Minoosh View Post
Why does the forgiven even need to know? I don't think I'd tell someone that I forgave them. It would be for me, not them.
If someone does you a wrong, they will tend to avoid you and might very well feel guilty about what they did. If it is a family member whom you otherwise love, you might tell them you forgive them because you don't want them to feel bad about what they did.

It acknowledging that what they did was wrong but you understand why they did it, rather than hate them forever, as they might assume.
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Old 3rd February 2021, 04:04 PM   #80
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Originally Posted by Minoosh View Post
Why does the forgiven even need to know? I don't think I'd tell someone that I forgave them. It would be for me, not them.
How is that "forgiveness" if the wrong doer still believes that you haven't forgiven them?
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