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Old 6th February 2021, 09:01 PM   #121
psionl0
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Originally Posted by xjx388 View Post
Forgiveness doesn’t mean everything goes back to normal.
Then it is only partial forgiveness (which may be a perfectly valid thing).

To completely forgive somebody is to regard the person has never having done the wrong.
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Old 6th February 2021, 09:24 PM   #122
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
Then it is only partial forgiveness (which may be a perfectly valid thing).

To completely forgive somebody is to regard the person has never having done the wrong.

I agree with you here psion10. That may be a first.
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Old 6th February 2021, 09:25 PM   #123
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
Then it is only partial forgiveness (which may be a perfectly valid thing).

To completely forgive somebody is to regard the person has never having done the wrong.

That’s one way of looking at it, I guess. I think it’s going to mean different things to different people. I can forgive people for wronging me. I’ve forgiven my BIL for stealing money from me when I let him work in my business. I’m not mad at him anymore, I understand why he did it and we’ve moved past that. But I’d be a fool to hire him again, don’t you think? Our relationship may never be quite the same again, but the fact that we have a relationship at all, in my view, means that I’ve forgiven him.
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Old 7th February 2021, 12:39 AM   #124
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Originally Posted by xjx388 View Post
I’ve forgiven my BIL for stealing money from me when I let him work in my business. I’m not mad at him anymore, I understand why he did it and we’ve moved past that. But I’d be a fool to hire him again, don’t you think?
Maybe "forgive" is not the same as "forgive and forget" but I prefer to see it more as a matter of degree.

If you have decided not to pursue any further action against your BIL but still apply some consequences (he can't work for you anymore) then that degree of forgiveness is not as high as foregoing all consequences against him.

I think it is a smart decision on your part but that alone is not a reason to water down the standard of forgiveness.
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Old 7th February 2021, 05:40 AM   #125
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
Maybe "forgive" is not the same as "forgive and forget" but I prefer to see it more as a matter of degree.

If you have decided not to pursue any further action against your BIL but still apply some consequences (he can't work for you anymore) then that degree of forgiveness is not as high as foregoing all consequences against him.

I think it is a smart decision on your part but that alone is not a reason to water down the standard of forgiveness.
It's more about distrust than unforgiveness. You can distrust people even if they have never wronged you. This often a rational choice because you know the person's character which makes him predisposed to do wrongdoings towards you or other people. For example, would you let a person who was in prison for murdering children to play with your children or at least come close to them?
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Old 7th February 2021, 07:46 AM   #126
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U

Good point, if it’s sometimes reasonable to mistrust people who have never wronged you then how can trust be a requirement for true forgiveness?
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Old 7th February 2021, 08:29 AM   #127
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Originally Posted by suren View Post
For example, would you let a person who was in prison for murdering children to play with your children or at least come close to them?
If you read the last line in the post you quoted then you would already know that I don't think that you should necessarily be that forgiving.
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Old 7th February 2021, 09:51 AM   #128
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Originally Posted by xjx388 View Post
And to add to the religious angle a little: I've never understood the Christian denominations that preach about Salvation by Faith Alone -that you are saved/forgiven if you simply accept Christ as your savior. .
I don't know, that seems to make more sense than "Jesus died for your sins but if you don't go to confession then that sacrifice doesn't matter and you still have to pay for them."

I get it. You can't claim that Jesus bore the punishment for our sins and still contend that we are going to be punished for our sins.

The only problem I would have with the "you are saved if you simply accept Christ as your savior" line is the part about having to accept Christ as your savior.
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Old 7th February 2021, 09:59 AM   #129
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
IIRC she was a very close relative, a mother, or similar and she was obviously in deep grief having witnessed a random meaningless murder in a church service. Most of the survivors declined to answer that question, one said, never, but this person said she forgave Roof. I think it was sincere. It was her solution to dealing with the anger and the pain.

ETA: Here's a link:



This other witness couldn't quite say it:

WASHINGTON POST


Question: Could you forgive such a crime?

I could not, but I want to know, what is the virtue in doing so?

If someone killed a loved one, why is it wrong to harbor a grudge against them the rest of your life?

You may want to claim "it's not healthy" but you know what else isn't healthy? Having a loved one murdered. Hating them for life may be the best coping mechanism.
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Old 7th February 2021, 10:01 AM   #130
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Originally Posted by Lothian View Post
To forgive is to say you are ok with what they did. If I thing what they did was wrong I decide whether it was wrong but I don't care or it was wrong and I do care. You will never be forgiven by me for that second act.
I disagree, there are many cases where forgiveness doesn't mean I'm okay with what they did, when my dog ate another dog's poop then threw it up on the living room floor I certainly wasn't okay with it, and have trained him not to eat dog ****, but I don't hold a grudge over it, similarly I have a lovely bite scar on my leg from another dog that I've also long forgiven, but it doesn't mean I'm happy for my limbs to be used as chew toys. With people too I forgive people for things I'm not okay with, usually when either my love for them is greater than my dislike of what they did, or if they've shown contrition or made amends, or when the offense is less than the inconvenience to me of not letting it go.
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Old 7th February 2021, 10:19 AM   #131
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To those asking who would ever want forgiveness, me, me, I want it!

I’ve got a terribly defensive personality and I just can’t be comfortable when I feel like I’ve misstepped and wronged or upset someone by mistake or carelessness. I don’t like that about myself because I know it’s got to be annoying, but I really need people to let me know whether if it was just a misunderstanding, give me a sincere ‘we’re cool, don’t worry about it,’ or a hug or something. Or if I really messed up, what I can do about it or do different next time. I just really need some kind of closure over stuff like that or I can’t stop thinking about it. I wish I could figure out how to not feel that way.

In the other direction, I don’t think I have the tools to hold a grudge, or the bad fortune to need to.
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Old 7th February 2021, 10:42 AM   #132
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Maybe clarifying levels/types of forgiveness may be in order? Seems like a lot of thoughts center around a restricted definition. Forgiving a temporarily unruly pet or unfaithful spouse is worlds away from debt forgiveness.
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Old 7th February 2021, 10:54 AM   #133
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Maybe clarifying levels/types of forgiveness may be in order? Seems like a lot of thoughts center around a restricted definition. Forgiving a temporarily unruly pet or unfaithful spouse is worlds away from debt forgiveness.
What is there to forgive with an unruly pet? Is the pet choosing to do things that harm you?
That doesn't even make sense to me. What does it even mean to "forgive" your dog for crapping on the rug?

And I don't know why forgiving an unfaithful spouse is all that different from debt forgiveness.

I mean, debt forgiveness certainly does not mean that there are no consequences going forward. For example, I can certainly waive your debt, but that doesn't mean that we are going back to the way it was before you defaulted. Your failure to repay the debt means I will not be willing to loan you money again.

Similarly, for an unfaithful spouse, I would, for example, be less willing to trust them doing things like going out on "girls nights out" as they have demonstrated they cannot be trusted.
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Old 7th February 2021, 10:57 AM   #134
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
If you read the last line in the post you quoted then you would already know that I don't think that you should necessarily be that forgiving.
Originally Posted by Lithrael View Post
Good point, if it’s sometimes reasonable to mistrust people who have never wronged you then how can trust be a requirement for true forgiveness?
The effects of unforgiveness and mistrust sometimes look similar but the mechanisms are different. Unforgiveness is when you want the offender to suffer/or pay the debt because of your grievance / sense of justice (eye for eye principle). Mistrust isn't necessarily a grievance, actually it is often reasonable thing that comes from cautiousness unlike unforgiveness, which is an emotional and destructive thing.

Sure, sometimes they overlap with each other. Mistrust can sometimes have egotistical reasons, but that's somewhat different story IMHO.

So I don't think that trust is a necessary part of forgiveness (depends on the situation).
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Old 7th February 2021, 11:14 AM   #135
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Originally Posted by suren View Post
So I don't think that trust is a necessary part of forgiveness (depends on the situation).
That comes down to the meaning of the word "forgiveness" and whether different levels exist.

I repeat that if mistrust remains as one of the consequences of wrong doing then you have not attained the highest level of forgiveness. Again, nobody is expected to strive for the highest level of forgiveness every time.
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Old 7th February 2021, 01:17 PM   #136
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I think forgiveness serves two useful purposes. It can help prevent or diminish cyclical violence and retaliation, even if only in the tepid form of begrudgingly agreeing not to avenge wrongs outside the courts. On an interpersonal level, apart from allowing major and minor conflict to be overcome, it can provide insight and even deeper appreciation of others when empathy and introspection reveal more of what the offender's motives or state of mind were and thus help make the offense somewhat more, well, forgivable.
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Old 7th February 2021, 02:52 PM   #137
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
That comes down to the meaning of the word "forgiveness" and whether different levels exist.

I repeat that if mistrust remains as one of the consequences of wrong doing then you have not attained the highest level of forgiveness. Again, nobody is expected to strive for the highest level of forgiveness every time.

Why do you think there needs to be degrees of forgiveness? Consequences can be separate from fogiveness; in fact, I would argue that they are two different things.

Forgiveness = letting go of resentment; consequences = lessons learned from the interactions, applied going forward.
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Old 7th February 2021, 02:56 PM   #138
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
That comes down to the meaning of the word "forgiveness" and whether different levels exist.

I repeat that if mistrust remains as one of the consequences of wrong doing then you have not attained the highest level of forgiveness. Again, nobody is expected to strive for the highest level of forgiveness every time.

It would seem that many have vastly different meanings they apply to the word "forgiveness".

- Some would have us accept the notion that they can forgive someone but wouldn't trust them anyway.

- Others are saying that someone can change so they can forgive the changed individual.

Both of these ideas make little sense to me. The former I think for obvious reasons and the later because the person you are forgiving is not the same entity as the one who did the nasty deed.

I am beginning to form the opinion that the idea of forgiveness is a nonsense.
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Old 7th February 2021, 02:58 PM   #139
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Originally Posted by xjx388 View Post
Why do you think there needs to be degrees of forgiveness? Consequences can be separate from fogiveness; in fact, I would argue that they are two different things.

Forgiveness = letting go of resentment; consequences = lessons learned from the interactions, applied going forward.
By your logic, you could tell a wrong doer "I forgive you" (or even just think it) then punish them anyway. I don't even see how that would even give you the warm fuzzies.

You can't claim the highest moral ground if you only go part way there. Forgiveness isn't complete if consequences remain.
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Old 7th February 2021, 03:11 PM   #140
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Originally Posted by Hlafordlaes View Post
I think forgiveness serves two useful purposes. It can help prevent or diminish cyclical violence and retaliation, even if only in the tepid form of begrudgingly agreeing not to avenge wrongs outside the courts. On an interpersonal level, apart from allowing major and minor conflict to be overcome, it can provide insight and even deeper appreciation of others when empathy and introspection reveal more of what the offender's motives or state of mind were and thus help make the offense somewhat more, well, forgivable.
The default consequence of not forgiving isn’t violence and retaliation or lacking empathy and introspection. People that do forgive aren’t likely to to be the ones that would turn into psychopaths otherwise, and those that may turn into psychopaths aren’t likely to be the ones that might forgive anyway. Forgiveness isn't a cure-all for psychopaths.

There are also many possible downsides to forgiving, like consequences that might follow from people not being held responsible for their actions, and many more I’m sure we can all think of.
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Old 7th February 2021, 03:23 PM   #141
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Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
I am beginning to form the opinion that the idea of forgiveness is a nonsense.
Me too! And a nonsense that can have worse consequences than the indiscretion being forgiven. I can’t see how I can use the “forgiveness” term/concept in the ways I treat people that have done significant wrong against me.

I can see however how some theists use it to condescendingly say “I’m better than you” Example . . .
Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
You can't claim the highest moral ground if you only go part way there. Forgiveness isn't complete if consequences remain.
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Old 7th February 2021, 03:45 PM   #142
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
Forgiveness isn't complete if consequences remain.
OK, but with this definition this gives me an impression that people aren't good enough in forgiving when the consequences are inevitable, although you mentioned that people shouldn't always strive to completely forgive in all situations.

Forgiveness is about past, you are not mad at the person for his past actions even if he didn't change. Mistrust is the result of the evidence that he didn't change. If there is a good evidence that the person changed the mistrust will vanish. Mistrust differs from unforgiveness/revenge, it doesn't expect the person to pay something back or suffer for the things that he did to you. It only expects an evidence that the person won't systematically repeat the wrongdoings.

So I'm not sure if it's correct to consider mistrust something that contradicts forgiveness. By your definition it seems that we aren't doing right when we keep criminals in jails or punish children, etc. Sometimes this is the lesser of two evils regardless of whether we are mad at the wrongdoer for his past actions or not.
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Old 7th February 2021, 04:46 PM   #143
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
By your logic, you could tell a wrong doer "I forgive you" (or even just think it) then punish them anyway. I don't even see how that would even give you the warm fuzzies.

You can't claim the highest moral ground if you only go part way there. Forgiveness isn't complete if consequences remain.
That's stupid. I can forgive you for stiffing me on a loan, and also impose the consequence of not lending you money in the future.

"Oh but you're punishing me!"

No.

Play stupid games, win stupid prizes. I forgive you for playing stupid games, but you won the prizes fair and square.
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Old 7th February 2021, 05:26 PM   #144
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
That's stupid. I can forgive you for stiffing me on a loan, and also impose the consequence of not lending you money in the future.
So forgiving a debt and being willing to make a loan in the future is no different to forgiving a debt but not being willing to make a loan in the future?

The latter might be the better option. It might even be best to advise other potential lenders that this person is a deadbeat. But don't tell me that the latter option is more forgiving than the first one.
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Old 7th February 2021, 07:41 PM   #145
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You want to know what forgiving means? Ask the J-man.

He isn't exactly popular in these parts, I know. We think him deluded, crazy, fictional, hell there's that huge series of threads where we consign him to Schrodinger's-cat-ness as far as his very existence.

For all that, what this man did, or what he was alleged to have done, at the very end, that's the all-time world record on forgiveness. Let that be the gold standard of forgiveness, for all time.

Oh, and incidentally: Forgiving isn't necessarily healthy. It may be, or it may not, depending.

The Gospels don't record it, but the J-man may also have been world record holder for all time in hopping on one leg in the desert sands with no shoes. That isn't something we necessarily wish to emulate. It might be a useful skill, depending, or it might be pointless, or it might be dysfunctional crazy harmful, depending. Likewise forgiveness.
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Old 7th February 2021, 09:27 PM   #146
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Originally Posted by Chanakya View Post
You want to know what forgiving means? Ask the J-man.

He isn't exactly popular in these parts, I know. We think him deluded, crazy, fictional, hell there's that huge series of threads where we consign him to Schrodinger's-cat-ness as far as his very existence.

For all that, what this man did, or what he was alleged to have done, at the very end, that's the all-time world record on forgiveness. Let that be the gold standard of forgiveness, for all time.

Oh, and incidentally: Forgiving isn't necessarily healthy. It may be, or it may not, depending.

The Gospels don't record it, but the J-man may also have been world record holder for all time in hopping on one leg in the desert sands with no shoes. That isn't something we necessarily wish to emulate. It might be a useful skill, depending, or it might be pointless, or it might be dysfunctional crazy harmful, depending. Likewise forgiveness.

But hang on. Jesus was asking his father to do the forgiving wasn't he? His father did not have a good track record in the forgiving did he. Being somewhat vengeful in the OT.

But, but, but, He and the boy, plus Casper, were all one so Christians tell us. It's all too confusing for me. We have to get some input from the faithful on this one.
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Old 8th February 2021, 06:48 AM   #147
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Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
But hang on. Jesus was asking his father to do the forgiving wasn't he? His father did not have a good track record in the forgiving did he. Being somewhat vengeful in the OT.

But, but, but, He and the boy, plus Casper, were all one so Christians tell us. It's all too confusing for me. We have to get some input from the faithful on this one.

Well yes, I was assuming he'd done his forgiving himself, and only then petitioned his Father. Otherwise, rather than asking his Father to forgive "them", he'd instead have called on Him to rain down locusts, or "smite" them, or the first-born thing, or one of those charming things He was in the habit of doing back then; or at least, he'd have kept mum and left "them" to Daddy's dubious mercy without remark.

You're right, though, this kind of thesis is better presented by someone who actually buys into it. Otherwise it is more mockery and joking around than serious discussion. (On the other hand, not really: we can rightfully discuss the motives and motivations of fictional characters well enough while understanding it is fiction we're dealing with, so ... )
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Old 8th February 2021, 09:59 AM   #148
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Originally Posted by ynot View Post
The default consequence of not forgiving isn’t violence and retaliation or lacking empathy and introspection. People that do forgive aren’t likely to to be the ones that would turn into psychopaths otherwise, and those that may turn into psychopaths aren’t likely to be the ones that might forgive anyway. Forgiveness isn't a cure-all for psychopaths.

There are also many possible downsides to forgiving, like consequences that might follow from people not being held responsible for their actions, and many more I’m sure we can all think of.
I realize the thread has been dealing with multiple definitions for forgiveness; my use is restricted to the cases given. No relation to debt "forgiveness", a different use of the term, for example. In fact, in a rarest-of-rare agreement with the Christian right, or some advocates thereof, I think that personal ethics (for them, faith) benefits from coexisting with a criminal justice system, such that forgiving is not condoning, nor tantamount to ignoring dangers to society.

As for the digression into psychopathy, no cure-all was offered, though I'd agree psychopaths will be psychopaths, sure.
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Old 8th February 2021, 10:15 AM   #149
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
So forgiving a debt and being willing to make a loan in the future is no different to forgiving a debt but not being willing to make a loan in the future?
It's obviously different.

Forgiving someone for not paying a debt is a personal/emotional/moral choice you make. As a person, towards the other person.

Deciding whether or not to loan money is a business decision. Forgiving someone person-to-person doesn't magically make them a good credit risk, or magically make it a good idea to do more business with them.
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Old 8th February 2021, 11:26 AM   #150
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Originally Posted by pgwenthold View Post
I could not, but I want to know, what is the virtue in doing so?

If someone killed a loved one, why is it wrong to harbor a grudge against them the rest of your life?

You may want to claim "it's not healthy" but you know what else isn't healthy? Having a loved one murdered. Hating them for life may be the best coping mechanism.
To my mind, the most effective way of forgiving someone is to say it to their face. So suppose someone kills a friend or relative through dangerous driving, or whatever. You can put yourself in their shoes and ascertain whether they made a stupid mistake or whether it was wanton recklessness, such as being drunk or drugged at the wheel. A common cause of road death is a driver failing to see on coming traffic when turning, or failing to see a vehicle suddenly coming out of a side road. Such a person is likely to be full of regret and remorse, so one could go to go to court, see them get justice yet let them know that you forgive them their mistake, even if it doesn't make the loss easier to bear.

Once you realise that there is nothing you can do to get revenge without breaking the law yourself or coming down to their level looking them in the eye and saying you forgive them gives you a powerful dealing card.

In the case of Dylann Ruuf. This was a mixed up kid aged eighteen. What a terrible blot and stain on his life that he did what he did. Those forgiving people likely looked at him with pity - at least some of them - and recognised that he was a damaged broken desperately unhappy person going away for life.

Try looking at it this way, when you go out and a falling tree misses you by inches but hurts you quite badly with its branches, you don't feel hatred towards the tree. You just accept it's out of your hands, rather than feeling hatred and resentment towards that tree for leaving a scar, or worse, all alder trees - for that is what it was - when the felled tree carries on not caring less or more one way or the other as a tree cannot care. Many criminals do not care and never will.
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Old 8th February 2021, 11:28 AM   #151
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Originally Posted by Lithrael View Post
To those asking who would ever want forgiveness, me, me, I want it!

I’ve got a terribly defensive personality and I just can’t be comfortable when I feel like I’ve misstepped and wronged or upset someone by mistake or carelessness. I don’t like that about myself because I know it’s got to be annoying, but I really need people to let me know whether if it was just a misunderstanding, give me a sincere ‘we’re cool, don’t worry about it,’ or a hug or something. Or if I really messed up, what I can do about it or do different next time. I just really need some kind of closure over stuff like that or I can’t stop thinking about it. I wish I could figure out how to not feel that way.

In the other direction, I don’t think I have the tools to hold a grudge, or the bad fortune to need to.
Buy 'em a bunch of flowers or a box of chocolates.
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Old 8th February 2021, 11:32 AM   #152
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Originally Posted by pgwenthold View Post
<snip>
Similarly, for an unfaithful spouse, I would, for example, be less willing to trust them doing things like going out on "girls nights out" as they have demonstrated they cannot be trusted.
Ladies, do not let your unfaithful spouse go on a "girls nights out" as they have demonstrated they cannot be trusted.
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Old 8th February 2021, 11:35 AM   #153
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Originally Posted by Hlafordlaes View Post
I think forgiveness serves two useful purposes. It can help prevent or diminish cyclical violence and retaliation, even if only in the tepid form of begrudgingly agreeing not to avenge wrongs outside the courts. On an interpersonal level, apart from allowing major and minor conflict to be overcome, it can provide insight and even deeper appreciation of others when empathy and introspection reveal more of what the offender's motives or state of mind were and thus help make the offense somewhat more, well, forgivable.
Heh, going to court is probably the fastest way to accelerate tensions and hostility.
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Old 8th February 2021, 11:57 AM   #154
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Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
But hang on. Jesus was asking his father to do the forgiving wasn't he? His father did not have a good track record in the forgiving did he. Being somewhat vengeful in the OT.

But, but, but, He and the boy, plus Casper, were all one so Christians tell us. It's all too confusing for me. We have to get some input from the faithful on this one.
It's theology. Bear in mind, the human mind can differentiate between good and evil. The Ancient Greeks and Romans believed int he forces of good and evil. For example, they believed there was a permanent war going on in the heaven between the heroes and the villains, and the Christians carried on with this concept with Arch Angel Michael slaying the dragon with its sword, and locking up the Beast with 666 on its forehead in a pit for a thousand years to protect the world from unleashing its evil. Lucifer was originally an Angel close to the Elo-Him (the Gods or God) who decided to rebel and was cast out. Jesus says, @I saw Satan fall from the sky', Jesus himself having been there from the beginning as the first High Priest Melchizedek, as mentioned in Genesis. So, in effect, Satan represents the material world ('Turn the stones into bread and the world will be yours') and Christ the spiritual world (evil versus good) and this is a constant battle going on outside the reach of human consciousness yet we are aware of the conflict between good vs evil in the world. My pastor in England said his colleagues (meaning himself!) believed Trump might be who Revelation was referring to as 'the 666 Beast'!

So the thing about Christ forgiving those who choose goodness, as set out in the scriptures, is that when evil is eliminated then 'the saints' would 'go marching in'. You can't be a saint if you have 'sins' so therefore, they need to be forgiven and you too have to forgive others, as in theory, forgiveness belongs to God, as does vengeance. So, to save mankind, God sent Jesus to save the world, i.e., give people redemption from all the things they have done wrong, instead of dying. Luther believed this was a choice. Calvin that those people to be saved were 'chosen'.

Well, that's the theory. Expressed badly, I know.

But what, I hear you say, is 'forgiveness'?

To sin is human, to forgive is divine.
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Old 8th February 2021, 03:01 PM   #155
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Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
It would seem that many have vastly different meanings they apply to the word "forgiveness".

- Some would have us accept the notion that they can forgive someone but wouldn't trust them anyway.

- Others are saying that someone can change so they can forgive the changed individual.

Both of these ideas make little sense to me. The former I think for obvious reasons and the later because the person you are forgiving is not the same entity as the one who did the nasty deed.

I am beginning to form the opinion that the idea of forgiveness is a nonsense.
I agree. Which is why I created this thread.
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Old 8th February 2021, 05:16 PM   #156
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Deciding whether or not to loan money is a business decision. Forgiving someone person-to-person doesn't magically make them a good credit risk, or magically make it a good idea to do more business with them.
Thank you for paraphrasing the part of my post that you didn't quote.
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Old 8th February 2021, 05:24 PM   #157
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
Thank you for paraphrasing the part of my post that you didn't quote.
I lost interest in trying to unravel your conflation after the the first paragraph. Forgiveness and consequences are two separate operations.
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Old 8th February 2021, 05:29 PM   #158
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Foregoing a debt (writing it off and not pursuing payment) isn’t forgiving a debt or forgiving a debtor. Foregoing debts has nothing to do with forgiveness.

I think I forego indiscretions rather than forgive them
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Old 8th February 2021, 07:07 PM   #159
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
I lost interest in trying to unravel your conflation after the the first paragraph. Forgiveness and consequences are two separate operations.
You just want to try and claim the high moral ground by saying "I forgave them" while still punishing them. That is not forgiveness.

Originally Posted by ynot View Post
I think I forego indiscretions rather than forgive them
A much more accurate description of what many want to call "forgiveness" (sounds moral).
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Old 8th February 2021, 07:14 PM   #160
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
A much more accurate description of what many want to call "forgiveness" (sounds moral).
I would say practical/pragmatic rather than moral.
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