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Old 11th February 2021, 02:09 PM   #201
Irony
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A word means what people use it to mean.
In general it can mean simply letting go of any desire for revenge, but the way people use it in common (and in religious) speech it more often means absolving someone of guilt.
The notion of forgiveness as an inherent good is, in my experience, almost exclusively used as a means of shielding abusers from consequences, or as a way to shame the abused for daring to demand justice.
It's all well and good to say that's wrong, but that doesn't change the reality of it.
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Old 11th February 2021, 03:00 PM   #202
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Then it would behoove people talking about it to be clear what interpretation of the word they are speaking of.
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Old 11th February 2021, 03:03 PM   #203
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Originally Posted by Irony View Post
A word means what people use it to mean.
Or what they want it to mean.

Many apparently want to use the word "forgiveness" in place of "foregoing" or "letting go" because it is a better sounding word. As in "I forgive you but I am still going to beat the **** out of you".

This is one of those "true atheists" types of debates again.
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Old 11th February 2021, 03:11 PM   #204
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
Or what they want it to mean.

Many apparently want to use the word "forgiveness" in place of "foregoing" or "letting go" because it is a better sounding word. As in "I forgive you but I am still going to beat the **** out of you".

This is one of those "true atheists Christian" types of debates again.
FTFY

But I agree that many are using "forgive" when "forego" would be more appropriate.
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Old 11th February 2021, 03:15 PM   #205
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Originally Posted by ynot View Post
FTFY
In this forum, I see more heat generated over the meaning of the word "atheist" than the meaning of the word "Christian".
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Old 11th February 2021, 03:21 PM   #206
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
In this forum, I see more heat generated over the meaning of the word "atheist" than the meaning of the word "Christian".
So what? Why do you keep dancing so far from the music you can't hear it, then wonder why people say you're dancing like your dad?
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Old 11th February 2021, 03:41 PM   #207
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Originally Posted by ynot View Post
So what? Why do you keep dancing so far from the music you can't hear it, then wonder why people say you're dancing like your dad?
That's it! You people have stood in my way long enough! I'M GOING TO CLOWN COLLEGE!
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Old 11th February 2021, 03:42 PM   #208
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Only if you accept the premise that forgiving someone involves waiving the consequences of their actions.

Nothing about forgiving someone for stiffing me on a loan requires enabling them to take out more bad loans with me.

"Hey, can I borrow fifty bucks?"

"Haha, nope! I'm still out the two hundred I loaned you last year. And you know what? That's okay. I don't even want it back anymore. Water under the bridge. Let's all move on. I'll happily buy the next round, but no way in hell am I loaning you money again."

Is a perfectly cromulent expression of forgiveness and consequences.


Maybe. But I doubt it. You don't have to harbor anger towards the scorpion, to decide it's a foolish risk to ferry him across the river again.
If you lend someone money they fail to pay back then you are the author of your own misfortune to some extent.
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Old 11th February 2021, 03:50 PM   #209
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Originally Posted by Irony View Post
A word means what people use it to mean.
While true in some ways, not in others.

A lot of people use "Impeached" to mean "Be found guilty by the Senate" when in fact it means to "be charged by the House." A lot of people also say "Bet" when they mean "Beat". Just because people use or action a word incorrectly doesn't mean that we should change its meaning.

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In general it can mean simply letting go of any desire for revenge, but the way people use it in common (and in religious) speech it more often means absolving someone of guilt.
I'm going to have to say that from my own personal experiences and teachings, that this isn't correct in the form of Christianity I was brought up with, but at the same time I have seen it used that way in other forms and it really rubs me the wrong way because it is literally opposed to what I was taught and came to understand through my studies. Thus I'm not going to say that you're wrong in stating it, but I also think that you are being overly broad and generalistic in saying it.

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The notion of forgiveness as an inherent good is, in my experience, almost exclusively used as a means of shielding abusers from consequences, or as a way to shame the abused for daring to demand justice.
I can't say much more really, it's disgusting and depraved and those that use it this way deserve to be in jail and assuming that the faith is correct, a very hot place for a very long time. As I say, it's the antithesis of how I was taught and the Churches I belonged to, but I am well aware that certain other Churches seem only too willing to do so. I believe it is anti-Christian and that it needs to be stood up against from within. Unfortunately, it depends on the Leadership taking charge, and all too often it seems to be them that are trying to protect themselves.

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It's all well and good to say that's wrong, but that doesn't change the reality of it.
To change that reality though we do need those that don't see it that way to be willing to stand up and say that it's wrong, that's the first step in fixing the problem, and it's something that needs to come from within, not from without. Again sadly it's human nature to circle the wagons when an attack comes from outside the group. Christian Leaders need to stand up and say, this is wrong, this is anti-Christian and anti-scriptural, it needs to change. It needs to come from the leadership of the big mainstream Churches. They need to stop covering their own butts and start acting in a moral way.
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Old 11th February 2021, 03:51 PM   #210
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
If you lend someone money they fail to pay back then you are the author of your own misfortune to some extent.
Best not to expect to be repaid if you lend somebody money. That doesn't mean that you have forgiven the debt.

Better still, neither a borrower nor a lender be.
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Old 11th February 2021, 03:54 PM   #211
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Originally Posted by PhantomWolf View Post
I suggest you re-read my post, mostly the things that forgiveness is not.

What you describe is not forgiveness, it's further abuse. Forgiveness cannot be demanded, it is something that is genuine and from a person's own will and own heart. No one can make you actually let go of your anger and the want of revenge, other than yourself. Forgiveness is also not a remedy for consequences outside of personal revenge, and in my opinion, any Church leader that hides criminal actions behind the idea of forgiveness needs to be in the cell next to the offender.

This moves into the other side of forgiveness, the getting forgiveness.

The way I was taught about how gaining forgiveness works is that you need to genuinely be sorry for your actions and as such not only cease from doing those actions but also accept any consequences of them. Thus if your actions were criminal in nature, to truly gain forgiveness, then a part of showing that you are genuinely sorry and are taking responsibility is the acceptance of any legal consequences of your actions, including going to jail if that is what society demands. This is where Church leaders need to be stepping up to the mark, in both the counseling of those offenders and the victims. Rather than dragging victims in front of the church and revictimizing them, they need to explain that when the person is ready that they need to let go of the anger, and rather than shielding the offender, they need to make it quite clear that a part of forgiveness is accepting those consequences and paying the debt to society.

Romans 13 tells us that we are under and subject to the laws and punishments of our Governments and that we are to accept and obey those laws and accept the consequences of breaking them. Church leaders need to remember that and make sure that their congregations understand it too. Too often these days, I see Churches that seem to believe that they are above man's laws and so don't need to follow them. That is anti-Scriptural and anti-Christian.

In the situation, you describe the correct way to handle the situation would be for the offender to be brought before the Church and have them ask for forgiveness from un-named victims, and then to have them turn themselves over to the police. Sadly this seems to be the rarity and not the rule. It needs to change.
Well, of course, people do cherry pick from the Bible. I was in a congregation that was smugly middle class and comfortably off. The weekly congregational chanted prayer usually including asking our leaders, government and the whichever establishment figure was in the news to be guided to do the right thing. (We support you.) In addition, the passage about slaves should not rebel against their masters, to 'love life' and various other conservative memes were used in readings surprisingly often. It made me wonder whether I liked this type of smugness.

Our self reference as 'a poor miserable sinner' surely could not refer to Mr Sanctimonious in the third row who loudly sang out of tune..?
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Old 11th February 2021, 03:57 PM   #212
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Originally Posted by ynot View Post
FTFY

But I agree that many are using "forgive" when "forego" would be more appropriate.
I would even suggest some people have no idea of the meaning of 'forgiveness' other than as a word they hear now and again.
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Old 11th February 2021, 04:01 PM   #213
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
If you lend someone money they fail to pay back then you are the author of your own misfortune to some extent.
I have no opinion about that.
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Old 11th February 2021, 04:03 PM   #214
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
I have no opinion about that.
"Never a borrower or lender be" is a wise homily for a happy life.
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Old 11th February 2021, 04:05 PM   #215
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Well, of course, people do cherry pick from the Bible. I was in a congregation that was smugly middle class and comfortably off. The weekly congregational chanted prayer usually including asking our leaders, government and the whichever establishment figure was in the news to be guided to do the right thing. (We support you.) In addition, the passage about slaves should not rebel against their masters, to 'love life' and various other conservative memes were used in readings surprisingly often. It made me wonder whether I liked this type of smugness.

Our self reference as 'a poor miserable sinner' surely could not refer to Mr Sanctimonious in the third row who loudly sang out of tune..?
As most people in my life can tell you, I have a long list of people that I strongly believe need to be stood in a line and have some sense slapped into them, and a lot of "Christians" feature heavily at the top of that list. There are a lot of people that go to church and call themselves Christians who are the worst advertisement for Christianity that there ever could be, mostly because there are sanctimonious hypocrites that act all holier than thou in Church, then drive out the gate and flip off other drivers as they cut them off. Again what I was taught is that it is what you do outside of Church, what you do when no-one is looking, that's where the real faith is found and determined.

No one can truly know a person's relationship with God, but we did get told that we would know people by their fruit, and sadly there is a lot of rotten to the core fruit being borne in the Churches today.
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Old 11th February 2021, 04:06 PM   #216
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
"Never a borrower or lender be" is a wise homily for a happy life.
Until you need a mortgage....
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Old 11th February 2021, 04:23 PM   #217
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
That's it! You people have stood in my way long enough! I'M GOING TO CLOWN COLLEGE!
Good idea! You will make a great teacher.
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Old 11th February 2021, 04:59 PM   #218
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
In this forum, I see more heat generated over the meaning of the word "atheist" than the meaning of the word "Christian".
There's nothing an atheist hates more than being told they believe there is no god.

Except perhaps the idea that someone else believes in god.
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Old 11th February 2021, 05:32 PM   #219
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
There's nothing an atheist hates more than being told they believe there is no god.

Except perhaps the idea that someone else believes in god.
You are wrong, but I don’t hate that you are wrong. I forego explaining (yet again) how and why you’re wrong as doing so has never had any effect on the blinkered beliefs in the cloistered minds of invisible, magical sky-daddy believers. I don't forgive your willful error.
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Old 11th February 2021, 06:19 PM   #220
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Well that Q.E.D.'d rather quickly.

ETA: ynot, is that why you always seem so angry about me? You think I'm a theist?

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Old 11th February 2021, 07:47 PM   #221
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Well that Q.E.D.'d rather quickly.

ETA: ynot, is that why you always seem so angry about me? You think I'm a theist?
I'm neither angry about or angry to you. Sorry if that's how I seem.

You think you're not a theist? Perhaps you think you're neither a theist nor atheist? Perhaps you think that's what agnostic means? You tell me . . . Is that deja vu I'm feeling?

ETA - Is your post #218 meant to taken seriously?
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Old 11th February 2021, 08:49 PM   #222
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
"Never a borrower or lender be" is a wise homily for a happy life.
I have no opinion about that, either.
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Old 11th February 2021, 08:55 PM   #223
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Originally Posted by ynot View Post
I'm neither angry about or angry to you. Sorry if that's how I seem.

You think you're not a theist? Perhaps you think you're neither a theist nor atheist? Perhaps you think that's what agnostic means? You tell me . . . Is that deja vu I'm feeling?
What makes you think I'm a theist?

Quote:
ETA - Is your post #218 meant to taken seriously?
It's meant to be a lighthearted, yet accurate description of common atheist attitudes expressed on this forum over the years. So yeah, don't get too hung up on it. It's not an important thing that you need to start a slapfight about.

About which you need to start a slapfight.
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Old 11th February 2021, 08:59 PM   #224
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
What makes you think I'm a theist?
If you're not a theist you're an atheist. Are you an atheist?

Does this "lighthearted slapfight" . . .
Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
There's nothing an atheist hates more than being told they believe there is no god.

Except perhaps the idea that someone else believes in god.
apply to you?
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Old 11th February 2021, 09:25 PM   #225
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Originally Posted by ynot View Post
If you're not a theist you're an atheist. Are you an atheist?

Does this "lighthearted slapfight" . . .

apply to you?
I'm more of a live and let live kind of guy. Epistemologically, I take an atheistic position. But I don't like to call myself an atheist, since as a subculture atheists seem to be rather dickish about their epistemology.

Case in point. This doesn't have to be a slapfight, unless you want to make it one. Which I guess you do. This whole struggle to get into a position where you can say, "aha! You're an atheist!" or whatever. What's the point? Who does this benefit? Do you honestly believe you're schooling me on the meanings of words?
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Old 11th February 2021, 09:31 PM   #226
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
I'm more of a live and let live kind of guy. Epistemologically, I take an atheistic position. But I don't like to call myself an atheist, since as a subculture atheists seem to be rather dickish about their epistemology.
In my experience, atheists generally just get on with their lives not thinking or talking very much about religion or the lack thereof at all. The noisy minority, though, yeah. Absolutely.
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Old 11th February 2021, 09:41 PM   #227
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
In my experience, atheists generally just get on with their lives not thinking or talking very much about religion or the lack thereof at all. The noisy minority, though, yeah. Absolutely.
That's fair. Most of my interaction with atheists is on this forum. So I'm probably suffering from severe selection bias.
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Old 11th February 2021, 10:24 PM   #228
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
That's fair. Most of my interaction with atheists is on this forum. So I'm probably suffering from severe selection bias.
I've been in a few atheist communities, and I know many atheists who are not members of such a community. What you said is absolutely true of some atheists. Just not, I think, a majority.
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Old 11th February 2021, 11:04 PM   #229
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
I'm more of a live and let live kind of guy. Epistemologically, I take an atheistic position. But I don't like to call myself an atheist, since as a subculture atheists seem to be rather dickish about their epistemology.

Case in point. This doesn't have to be a slapfight, unless you want to make it one. Which I guess you do. This whole struggle to get into a position where you can say, "aha! You're an atheist!" or whatever. What's the point? Who does this benefit? Do you honestly believe you're schooling me on the meanings of words?
Seems I need to school you on the meaning of at least three words. "Theism" is believing in a god or gods. "Atheism" is not believing in a god or gods. Both are uniquely concerned with belief. "Epistemology" is uniquely concerned with knowledge, nothing to do with theism or atheism.

"Epistemologically, I take an atheistic position" is a thinly disguised "I'm an agnostic", and I bet you think that's a middle (and superior) position between theism and atheism. I think we've had this discussion before. I'm done with this thread derail.
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Old 11th February 2021, 11:51 PM   #230
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Originally Posted by ynot View Post
"Epistemologically, I take an atheistic position" is a thinly disguised "I'm an agnostic", and I bet you think that's a middle (and superior) position between theism and atheism.
According to this forum, theism and gnosticism are two orthogonal concepts. Thus you can have a gnostic theist, agnostic theist, gnostic atheist or agnostic atheist.
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Old 12th February 2021, 05:00 AM   #231
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Most of the time I think of the "gnostic theist" and "gnostic atheist" as a strange place to be--I would expect most people to be in one of the other two buckets. The first because faith is so often a key feature, and the second because the matter being unfalsifiable is the point.
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Old 12th February 2021, 07:10 AM   #232
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Gnosticism is not the opposite of agnosticism. Gnosticism is a set of religions based on a combination of pagan and Christian mysticism. It tended to be esoteric even in its heyday, which was the second century.
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Old 12th February 2021, 07:15 AM   #233
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
According to this forum, theism and gnosticism are two orthogonal concepts. Thus you can have a gnostic theist, agnostic theist, gnostic atheist or agnostic atheist.
You can also break any opinion into this insane "D&D Alignment Chart but for Opinions."

We just don't.

There is either beer in my fridge or their isn't beer in my fridge. Our opinions as to the existence of been in my fridge either there is or isn't. We don't have beernostics and deep dive discussions about "No wait please clarify are you saying you have a negative belief in the existence of fridge beer or a positive belief in the non-existence of fridge beer" because that would be ******* stupid.
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Old 12th February 2021, 07:18 AM   #234
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That simplicity is complicated by the fact that you can't just go check your fridge for a deity.
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Old 12th February 2021, 07:23 AM   #235
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Originally Posted by gnome View Post
That simplicity is complicated by the fact that you can't just go check your fridge for a deity.
Don't make me go to my garage to look for a dragon.
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Old 12th February 2021, 07:30 AM   #236
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
There is either beer in my fridge or their isn't beer in my fridge. Our opinions as to the existence of been in my fridge either there is or isn't. We don't have beernostics and deep dive discussions about "No wait please clarify are you saying you have a negative belief in the existence of fridge beer or a positive belief in the non-existence of fridge beer" because that would be ******* stupid.
What if there's non-alcoholic beer in your fridge? Does that count as beer or not? What about lager and ale, are they just subsets of "beer" or are they different in their own right? How about mead?

Just because you are impatient with a topic doesn't mean other people don't see legitimate value in it.
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Old 12th February 2021, 07:32 AM   #237
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Don't make me go to my garage to look for a dragon.
It's parked next to the pink unicorn. Watch out, it's invisible.

Point being that as soon as we're talking about the potential existence of something unprovable by its nature, it becomes a lot more relevant whether a person's conclusion on the matter is treated by them as "knowledge" or just a gut feeling. A claim of knowledge is a logically stronger statement that people have more reason to challenge. If someone says "I think there's a God" I would probably not be tempted to question why. If they say "I know there's a God" I am more interested in why they are so certain.

The topic also raises the question of how we know things. So there's language around that which nobody would be concerned with on a matter like whether there's beer.
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Old 12th February 2021, 07:32 AM   #238
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
What if there's non-alcoholic beer in your fridge? Does that count as beer or not? What about lager and ale, are they just subsets of "beer" or are they different in their own right? How about mead?

Just because you are impatient with a topic doesn't mean other people don't see legitimate value in it.
When the beer that's not in my fridge starts telling people to bomb abortion clinics, I'll consider your comparison.
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Old 12th February 2021, 07:39 AM   #239
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
When the beer that's not in my fridge starts telling people to bomb abortion clinics, I'll consider your comparison.
Interesting that you conflate finding something bad with finding something not worth examining. If it's causing real world problems then surely it's more reasonable to examine it?
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Old 12th February 2021, 07:39 AM   #240
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Originally Posted by gnome View Post
It's parked next to the pink unicorn. Watch out, it's invisible.

Point being that as soon as we're talking about the potential existence of something unprovable by its nature, it becomes a lot more relevant whether a person's conclusion on the matter is treated by them as "knowledge" or just a gut feeling. A claim of knowledge is a logically stronger statement that people have more reason to challenge. If someone says "I think there's a God" I would probably not be tempted to question why. If they say "I know there's a God" I am more interested in why they are so certain.

The topic also raises the question of how we know things. So there's language around that which nobody would be concerned with on a matter like whether there's beer.
I hear your pleading. It's very special.

God apologetics has been watered down to "God has to be discussed differently because we say so."
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