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Old 12th February 2021, 07:46 AM   #241
theprestige
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Originally Posted by ynot View Post
Seems I need to school you on the meaning of at least three words. "Theism" is believing in a god or gods. "Atheism" is not believing in a god or gods. Both are uniquely concerned with belief. "Epistemology" is uniquely concerned with knowledge, nothing to do with theism or atheism.

"Epistemologically, I take an atheistic position" is a thinly disguised "I'm an agnostic", and I bet you think that's a middle (and superior) position between theism and atheism. I think we've had this discussion before. I'm done with this thread derail.
This right here is why I don't like to categorize myself socially as an atheist. You're trying to win an argument nobody is actually having. And you're being rude about it, too.
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Old 12th February 2021, 08:06 AM   #242
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
I hear your pleading. It's very special.

God apologetics has been watered down to "God has to be discussed differently because we say so."
Feel free to point out where I demanded anything. I offer a description of why I'm interested in discussing it in that framework and why others might be as well. If you're disinterested, that's fine.
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Old 12th February 2021, 09:30 AM   #243
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Looks like the discussion has derailed in the predictable direction.
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Old 12th February 2021, 11:46 AM   #244
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Originally Posted by gnome View Post
It's parked next to the pink unicorn. Watch out, it's invisible.

Point being that as soon as we're talking about the potential existence of something unprovable by its nature, it becomes a lot more relevant whether a person's conclusion on the matter is treated by them as "knowledge" or just a gut feeling. A claim of knowledge is a logically stronger statement that people have more reason to challenge. If someone says "I think there's a God" I would probably not be tempted to question why. If they say "I know there's a God" I am more interested in why they are so certain.

The topic also raises the question of how we know things. So there's language around that which nobody would be concerned with on a matter like whether there's beer.

Not taking any sides here; But - the idea of actual "proof" is not something supported by modern science ... science does not claim actual proof or literal certainty (not even for things like QM … which so far appears to be most accurately tested Theory ever discovered). So all we can really talk about is "evidence". And if we are talking here about a god such as the Christian God of the bible, then why would that be "unprovable" beyond any possible detectable evidence?

I don't see any reason why it would be inherrantly impossible to detect all sorts of evidence for such a God (if he actually existed).

Last edited by IanS; 12th February 2021 at 12:06 PM.
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Old 12th February 2021, 12:17 PM   #245
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Point taken...

I might modify my proposal to suggest instead where the question of existence cannot be made immediately obvious.
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Old 12th February 2021, 01:00 PM   #246
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Originally Posted by gnome View Post
Point taken...

I might modify my proposal to suggest instead where the question of existence cannot be made immediately obvious.

Good. Well done!
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Old 12th February 2021, 01:04 PM   #247
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I am the goalpost-moving champion today!

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Old 12th February 2021, 01:46 PM   #248
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Originally Posted by gnome View Post
I am the goalpost-moving champion today!


That's okay, we forgive you.
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Old 12th February 2021, 05:10 PM   #249
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
Gnosticism is not the opposite of agnosticism. Gnosticism is a set of religions based on a combination of pagan and Christian mysticism. It tended to be esoteric even in its heyday, which was the second century.
That is not the meaning used in this forum.

Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
You can also break any opinion into this insane "D&D Alignment Chart but for Opinions."

We just don't.

There is either beer in my fridge or their isn't beer in my fridge. Our opinions as to the existence of been in my fridge either there is or isn't. We don't have beernostics and deep dive discussions about "No wait please clarify are you saying you have a negative belief in the existence of fridge beer or a positive belief in the non-existence of fridge beer" because that would be ******* stupid.
I didn't come up with this artificial distinction and I don't support the way it is used.

Gnosticism is supposedly about whether the truth about the existence or otherwise of gods can be known. This is supposedly completely different to the concept of believing or disbelieving in the existence of gods.

I suspect that the aim of this distinction is to prevent people who neither believe nor disbelieve from calling themselves "agnostic". They must either label themselves "theist" or "atheist" thus widening the definition of "atheist" to not just be about disbelief any more.

Something similar is being done with the concept of "forgiveness". It won't be long before somebody claims that "forgo" is a completely different concept that can't be described as some level of "forgiveness".
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Old 12th February 2021, 08:43 PM   #250
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
That is not the meaning used in this forum.
Then the forum is using the term wrongly. It has a specific meaning, and it means one of a specific set of historical religions. Humpty Dumpty rules do not apply outside of nonsense.
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Old 12th February 2021, 09:14 PM   #251
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Dictionaries seem to recognize a difference between gnostic (as in relating to knowledge, which is a reasonable modifier) and Gnostic, the capitalized version of the word being what refers to the specific religion.
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Old 12th February 2021, 09:41 PM   #252
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Originally Posted by gnome View Post
Dictionaries seem to recognize a difference between gnostic (as in relating to knowledge, which is a reasonable modifier) and Gnostic, the capitalized version of the word being what refers to the specific religion.
Shrug. If you think the religion and philosophy subforum is a good place to chose your religion and philosophy terms in the vaguest possible way...well, I suppose it doesn't matter, this subforum is a bad joke anyway.
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Old 12th February 2021, 09:59 PM   #253
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
Shrug. If you think the religion and philosophy subforum is a good place to chose your religion and philosophy terms in the vaguest possible way...well, I suppose it doesn't matter, this subforum is a bad joke anyway.
I thought that humour was your forte. Isn't that why you post in this section?
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Old 12th February 2021, 10:03 PM   #254
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
I thought that humour was your forte. Isn't that why you post in this section?
Nobody can find anything funny about Gnosticism's divine emanations from Sophia, or that Sephiroth is involved (but not Aerith).
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Old 13th February 2021, 02:20 AM   #255
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
Shrug. If you think the religion and philosophy subforum is a good place to chose your religion and philosophy terms in the vaguest possible way...well, I suppose it doesn't matter, this subforum is a bad joke anyway.
It seems to me that the attempt to make the distinction between gnostic and agnostic atheism is the opposite of vague. It's an attempt to be more precise about people's viewpoints, not less.
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Old 13th February 2021, 03:21 AM   #256
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When someone says their viewpoint is atheistic, and someone else rejoins that this means they're agnostic, we're way beyond imprecise viewpoints, and into humpty dumpty land
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Old 13th February 2021, 05:00 AM   #257
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
When someone says their viewpoint is atheistic, and someone else rejoins that this means they're agnostic, we're way beyond imprecise viewpoints, and into humpty dumpty land
Oh absolutely. That whole thing was just weird.
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Old 13th February 2021, 06:25 AM   #258
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Originally Posted by Roboramma View Post
It seems to me that the attempt to make the distinction between gnostic and agnostic atheism is the opposite of vague. It's an attempt to be more precise about people's viewpoints, not less.
Disregarding the obvious problem of a hypothetical type of atheism that includes believing in gods, my objection is to using "gnostic" generically. Whatever the dictionary says I find it confusing because Gnosticism is a specific thing in its own right. Granted I'm biased because I've always been fond of the more ornamental heresies of early Christianity. The Simonians, the Valentinians, all those weird sects that tried to keep Christianity mystical rather than boring. But I realize that I'm in the extreme minority for even knowing about those people and their wacky ideas, much less caring that they get their semantic due in 2021.
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Old 13th February 2021, 07:10 AM   #259
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
Disregarding the obvious problem of a hypothetical type of atheism that includes believing in gods, my objection is to using "gnostic" generically. Whatever the dictionary says I find it confusing because Gnosticism is a specific thing in its own right. Granted I'm biased because I've always been fond of the more ornamental heresies of early Christianity. The Simonians, the Valentinians, all those weird sects that tried to keep Christianity mystical rather than boring. But I realize that I'm in the extreme minority for even knowing about those people and their wacky ideas, much less caring that they get their semantic due in 2021.
Don't forget the Priscillians (Priscilla was an early Christian priestess).

My understanding of Gnosticism is that it is quite mystical and inward-looking. Traditional Anglican Christianity and in the establishment generally it is outward looking, you pray to a God out there and ask God for forgiveness. With Gnosticism, they follow the New Testament but have an emphasis of meditation similar to the Eastern religions, a kind of navel-gazing and a know-yourself type stuff, with 'gospels' originally excluded from the NT as being of dubious origin, included, notably Thomas and Mary. It is strange that Mary was regarded as a disciple but she seems to have become a mere footnote.

I would guess when it comes to forgiveness an atheist will see it as another transaction between two or more people or even just in the mind. A traditional Christian will seek forgiveness via a church service and absolution through the pastor or priest and a Gnostic' would be doing the equivalent of looking at tarot cards and the hidden meaning. So what does forgiveness achieve in this context? I suppose it is like getting a weight off your shoulders.
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Old 13th February 2021, 08:34 AM   #260
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I'd say forgiveness is no different from everything else in the cosmos: there's an action that occurs in the physical world and has effects on relationships and other people, and then there's the internal reaction by the individuals involved. Although caused by the same event they have different results, different impacts, there's no direct relationship between them, and nobody will know the latter if the individuals involved don't say. Theists who believe their gods take a personal interest in them are just adding a third party to the event, an observer who will be judging them over it.
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Old 13th February 2021, 03:22 PM   #261
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
Disregarding the obvious problem of a hypothetical type of atheism that includes believing in gods, . . . . .
It's a good thing you are doing that. Everybody else is doing so as well.
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Old 13th February 2021, 04:29 PM   #262
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Originally Posted by Roboramma View Post
It seems to me that the attempt to make the distinction between gnostic and agnostic atheism is the opposite of vague. It's an attempt to be more precise about people's viewpoints, not less.
IMO . . .

There's no such thing as gnostic and agnostic atheism (a concept). Atheism is simply a generic label used to describe all people that don't believe in a god or gods (all people that aren't theists). Beyond that, atheists (people) can believe or claim to know whatever they like, including that a god or gods don't exist, or that a bigfoot does.

Not believing in a god or gods is the only thing that defines a person as being an atheist. Adjoining other words with “atheist” only describes what type of atheist they are (gnostic, agnostic, strong, week, militant, peaceful, etc.).
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Last edited by ynot; 13th February 2021 at 05:21 PM.
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Old 14th February 2021, 05:30 AM   #263
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Originally Posted by ynot View Post
IMO . . .

There's no such thing as gnostic and agnostic atheism (a concept). Atheism is simply a generic label used to describe all people that don't believe in a god or gods (all people that aren't theists). Beyond that, atheists (people) can believe or claim to know whatever they like, including that a god or gods don't exist, or that a bigfoot does.

Not believing in a god or gods is the only thing that defines a person as being an atheist. Adjoining other words with “atheist” only describes what type of atheist they are (gnostic, agnostic, strong, week, militant, peaceful, etc.).
Yeah, exactly. Blue-eyed-atheists are atheists with blue eyes. That doesn't imply that atheism has anything to do with blue eyes.

No one ever conflates eye color with belief in god, but some people do conflate a claim about the ability to know absolute truth with atheism. It's possible for atheists to have viewpoints in either direction on that question: it has nothing to do with whether or not they are atheists.
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Old 14th February 2021, 05:32 AM   #264
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
Disregarding the obvious problem of a hypothetical type of atheism that includes believing in gods, my objection is to using "gnostic" generically. Whatever the dictionary says I find it confusing because Gnosticism is a specific thing in its own right. Granted I'm biased because I've always been fond of the more ornamental heresies of early Christianity. The Simonians, the Valentinians, all those weird sects that tried to keep Christianity mystical rather than boring. But I realize that I'm in the extreme minority for even knowing about those people and their wacky ideas, much less caring that they get their semantic due in 2021.
That's fair. I don't find it confusing because in context it generally seems clear to me what people have been talking about, but there are certainly times when I've reacted to other words in exactly the way you're reacting here.
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Old 14th February 2021, 01:56 PM   #265
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An ABC story on this topic:

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-02-...stice/13141296


All a bit wishy washy for my taste with an emphasis on the benefits for the forgiver.

A short extract:

Quote:
"Decisional forgiveness is to make a decision not to seek revenge but to treat the person as a valued and valuable person," he says.
Emotional forgiveness involves replacing negative unforgiving emotions like resentment, bitterness, hate, anger, and fear with positive emotions such as empathy for the person who hurt them.
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Old 14th February 2021, 03:25 PM   #266
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If forgiveness means the victim has to heal by essentially treating the perpetrator as the victim and absolving them from responsibility for their actions, and suppressing natural (in the circumstances) emotions rather than living through them to complete the healing process, then I want none of it!
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Old 14th February 2021, 04:38 PM   #267
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Originally Posted by ynot View Post
If forgiveness means the victim has to heal by essentially treating the perpetrator as the victim and absolving them from responsibility for their actions, and suppressing natural (in the circumstances) emotions rather than living through them to complete the healing process, then I want none of it!
I think a reasonable response would be for the victim to forgive enough to step dwelling on the wrongs, but cut the perpetrator completely out of their life. I shouldn't obsess over what that bastard did to me in 1989, but I certainly don't have to be his friend or pretend not to hate him or brake if he wanders in front of my speeding RV. A total disinterest and shunning forever should be an elegant sufficiency.
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Old 14th February 2021, 04:45 PM   #268
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
I think a reasonable response would be for the victim to forgive enough to step dwelling on the wrongs, but cut the perpetrator completely out of their life. I shouldn't obsess over what that bastard did to me in 1989, but I certainly don't have to be his friend or pretend not to hate him or brake if he wanders in front of my speeding RV. A total disinterest and shunning forever should be an elegant sufficiency.
I don’t think any degree of forgiveness is required to stop dwelling on the wrongs.
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Old 14th February 2021, 04:52 PM   #269
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How much does it cost to rent an RV? I've been remembering the past, and I got that stimulus money...nah, that's not healthy. For my own spiritual good, I should instead just pay some teenagers to beat him up. Teenagers have no sense of how much things are worth and I'll be able to get them to work for cheap!
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Old 14th February 2021, 05:32 PM   #270
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
How much does it cost to rent an RV? I've been remembering the past, and I got that stimulus money...nah, that's not healthy. For my own spiritual good, I should instead just pay some teenagers to beat him up. Teenagers have no sense of how much things are worth and I'll be able to get them to work for cheap!
I understand
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Old 14th February 2021, 06:36 PM   #271
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
How much does it cost to rent an RV? I've been remembering the past, and I got that stimulus money...nah, that's not healthy. For my own spiritual good, I should instead just pay some teenagers to beat him up. Teenagers have no sense of how much things are worth and I'll be able to get them to work for cheap!
If you don't want to forgive that person then that is your prerogative but you can't take revenge like that and call it "forgiveness".
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Old 14th February 2021, 06:55 PM   #272
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
If you don't want to forgive that person then that is your prerogative but you can't take revenge like that and call it "forgiveness".
It'd be so much easier to forgive people who wrong you after they're dead. That way they can't re-offend, so you don't waste your forgiveness.
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Old 14th February 2021, 07:35 PM   #273
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I seem to compartmentalise bad indiscretions against me into a part of my brain that I don’t actively use very often (most of it? ;-). Everything is still there but it’s not mentally active, so victim emotions gradually dissipate. It becomes mentally active again however if I need the experiences to learn from when making decisions, especially decisions concerning the previous wrongdoers. I don’t forget or forgive, I compartmentalise so I can forego/forgo.
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Rumours of a god’s existence have been greatly exaggerated.
Make beliefs truths and you get make-believe truths.

Last edited by ynot; 14th February 2021 at 07:37 PM.
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Old 14th February 2021, 07:35 PM   #274
ynot
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
It'd be so much easier to forgive people who wrong you after they're dead. That way they can't re-offend, so you don't waste your forgiveness.
Yep, let's kill the guilty
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Rumours of a god’s existence have been greatly exaggerated.
Make beliefs truths and you get make-believe truths.
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Old 14th February 2021, 07:47 PM   #275
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
It'd be so much easier to forgive people who wrong you after they're dead. That way they can't re-offend, so you don't waste your forgiveness.
Yeah. Let's widen the definition of "forgiveness" to include cold blooded murder.
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Old 14th February 2021, 07:49 PM   #276
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
Yeah. Let's widen the definition of "forgiveness" to include cold blooded murder.
Now y'all gettin it
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Paranormal/supernatural beliefs are knowledge placebos.
Rumours of a god’s existence have been greatly exaggerated.
Make beliefs truths and you get make-believe truths.
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Old 14th February 2021, 07:50 PM   #277
TragicMonkey
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Originally Posted by ynot View Post
Yep, let's kill the guilty
Don't be silly. We should just kill the ones who've wronged me. Then I will be freely able to bathe all the surviving humans in the warm radiance of my beneficence. When you really, really consider it it's sort of an ethical obligation on the part of everyone to do this for me, as it will maximize my own compassion and kindness, which would then be shared with all the world! In fact, not murdering my enemies is sort of a moral lapse on everybody's part, isn't it? An insult; nay, even a sin! A sin against the flow of cosmic harmony and peace! I'm not certain I can forgive you for that...
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Old 14th February 2021, 07:51 PM   #278
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
Yeah. Let's widen the definition of "forgiveness" to include cold blooded murder.
Who said anything about cold-blooded? If you're going to do a murder it should be in the throes of strong, passionate fury! It's more ornamental, and I bet it's much more satisfying that way.
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Old 14th February 2021, 07:54 PM   #279
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
Who said anything about cold-blooded? If you're going to do a murder it should be in the throes of strong, passionate fury! It's more ornamental, and I bet it's much more satisfying that way.
Yeah, just like The Crusades, Inquisition, Bloody Mary, etc. (good times) .
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Paranormal/supernatural beliefs are knowledge placebos.
Rumours of a god’s existence have been greatly exaggerated.
Make beliefs truths and you get make-believe truths.
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Old 14th February 2021, 08:00 PM   #280
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Originally Posted by ynot View Post
Yeah, just like The Crusades, Inquisition, Bloody Mary, etc. (good times) .
What a strangely anti-Catholic remark to make! I don't see how it applies to what I said, unless you imagine a set of geopolitical movements, a religio-social control program, and one monarch no worse than her successor was are somehow passionate in their murders as opposed to calculating. All three examples cited seem far more cold than hot, even if you ignored the begged question that they were all for the sake of murder.
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