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Old 14th February 2021, 08:11 PM   #281
psionl0
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
Who said anything about cold-blooded? If you're going to do a murder it should be in the throes of strong, passionate fury! It's more ornamental, and I bet it's much more satisfying that way.
I know, it's not truly cold blooded murder unless you put the correct number of stamps on the letter you send to the hitman.

I would say that you are advocating the ultimate act of revenge as a form of "forgiveness" but it occurs to me that if you also had the ability to send your enemies to hell you would do that too and then "forgiveness" wouldn't commence until hell had frozen over.
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Old 14th February 2021, 08:14 PM   #282
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
What a strangely anti-Catholic remark to make! I don't see how it applies to what I said, unless you imagine a set of geopolitical movements, a religio-social control program, and one monarch no worse than her successor was are somehow passionate in their murders as opposed to calculating. All three examples cited seem far more cold than hot, even if you ignored the begged question that they were all for the sake of murder.
Very sorry. Forgive my indiscretion and your negative emotions toward me will disappear.
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Old 14th February 2021, 08:16 PM   #283
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
I know, it's not truly cold blooded murder unless you put the correct number of stamps on the letter you send to the hitman.
Good lord, who sends letters these days? That's crazy talk.

Quote:
I would say that you are advocating the ultimate act of revenge as a form of "forgiveness" but it occurs to me that if you also had the ability to send your enemies to hell you would do that too and then "forgiveness" wouldn't commence until hell had frozen over.
Eternal punishment is inherently unreasonable. Permanently disposing of one's enemies is quite sufficient: the point isn't to hurt them for their crimes, but to achieve justice and prevent them from repeating their errors. Once an enemy is removed why would there be any further need for animosity? They were problems that have been solved, and everyone can move on with their lives, refreshed and at peace. Those that can't move on with their lives because they're dead, well, they won't move on but they won't be in a position to be upset about it. They won't even know, what with being dead and all. They won't be suffering in the slightest.

eta: in fact, the idea of there being a hell at all is one of the things that makes me quite certain that God as portrayed by Christianity cannot possibly exist. If he did and he had a hell, he'd be a maniac and would have destroyed himself and us long ago.
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Old 14th February 2021, 08:23 PM   #284
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
Eternal punishment is inherently unreasonable. Permanently disposing of one's enemies is quite sufficient:
That sounds big hearted of you (if you can describe a murderer as "big hearted") but we will never know the truth about you since you can't continue hurting somebody once they are in the grave.
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Old 14th February 2021, 08:25 PM   #285
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
That sounds big hearted of you (if you can describe a murderer as "big hearted") but we will never know the truth about you since you can't continue hurting somebody once they are in the grave.
Assuming they weren't buried alive, of course. That's unpleasant, but statistically it's got to happen at least sometimes.
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Old 15th February 2021, 04:17 AM   #286
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
Yeah. Let's widen the definition of "forgiveness" to include cold blooded murder.
According to some expert psychologist, if you have been grievously wronged* by someone who is now dead, one way to deal with it is to write them a letter setting out all your grievances like a catharsis and then burn that letter.

*We are not talking about being owed a few bucks, here.
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Old 15th February 2021, 04:18 AM   #287
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
Don't be silly. We should just kill the ones who've wronged me. Then I will be freely able to bathe all the surviving humans in the warm radiance of my beneficence. When you really, really consider it it's sort of an ethical obligation on the part of everyone to do this for me, as it will maximize my own compassion and kindness, which would then be shared with all the world! In fact, not murdering my enemies is sort of a moral lapse on everybody's part, isn't it? An insult; nay, even a sin! A sin against the flow of cosmic harmony and peace! I'm not certain I can forgive you for that...
Such a tragedy you were not born a mediaeval king.
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Old 15th February 2021, 04:19 AM   #288
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
Who said anything about cold-blooded? If you're going to do a murder it should be in the throes of strong, passionate fury! It's more ornamental, and I bet it's much more satisfying that way.
Don't be like Al Capone. Make sure you file your tax returns in the mean time!
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Old 15th February 2021, 04:22 AM   #289
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
Good lord, who sends letters these days? That's crazy talk.



Eternal punishment is inherently unreasonable. Permanently disposing of one's enemies is quite sufficient: the point isn't to hurt them for their crimes, but to achieve justice and prevent them from repeating their errors. Once an enemy is removed why would there be any further need for animosity? They were problems that have been solved, and everyone can move on with their lives, refreshed and at peace. Those that can't move on with their lives because they're dead, well, they won't move on but they won't be in a position to be upset about it. They won't even know, what with being dead and all. They won't be suffering in the slightest.

eta: in fact, the idea of there being a hell at all is one of the things that makes me quite certain that God as portrayed by Christianity cannot possibly exist. If he did and he had a hell, he'd be a maniac and would have destroyed himself and us long ago.
Given the law of duality, if Heaven exists, then of course, its counterpart, Hell, must do so, too.
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Old 15th February 2021, 05:02 AM   #290
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Given the law of duality, if Heaven exists, then of course, its counterpart, Hell, must do so, too.
I don't see that as necessarily so, but I'll grant that the notion of a heaven is equally as reasonable as the notion of a hell.
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Old 15th February 2021, 05:08 AM   #291
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Given the law of duality, if Heaven exists, then of course, its counterpart, Hell, must do so, too.
What is the law of duality?
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Old 15th February 2021, 11:30 AM   #292
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
I don't see that as necessarily so, but I'll grant that the notion of a heaven is equally as reasonable as the notion of a hell.
Me too. This reminds me the legend where Albert Einstein humiliated an atheist professor.
The argument was that cold is the absence of warm, darkness is the absence of light, bad is the absence of good, etc. Some Christians similarly justify hell as simply an absence of God/heaven/happiness. But this logic is flawed. For example does the absence of happiness mean sadness? In a strict logical sense no, you can be neither happy or sad, just neutral. The same with other things, such as pleasure - pain, good - bad, etc.
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Old 15th February 2021, 11:45 AM   #293
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
According to some expert psychologist, if you have been grievously wronged* by someone who is now dead, one way to deal with it is to write them a letter setting out all your grievances like a catharsis and then burn that letter.

*We are not talking about being owed a few bucks, here.
An old favorite joke of mine:

I heard a good way to let go of anger is write letters to the people you hate, and then burn them.
Now I just have to figure out what to do with all the letters.
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Old 15th February 2021, 12:01 PM   #294
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Originally Posted by suren View Post
Me too. This reminds me the legend where Albert Einstein humiliated an atheist professor.
The argument was that cold is the absence of warm, darkness is the absence of light, bad is the absence of good, etc. Some Christians similarly justify hell as simply an absence of God/heaven/happiness. But this logic is flawed. For example does the absence of happiness mean sadness? In a strict logical sense no, you can be neither happy or sad, just neutral. The same with other things, such as pleasure - pain, good - bad, etc.
Its been said that love isn't the opposite of hate; indifference is. A lot of these dichotomies don't really lie on a straight line.
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Old 15th February 2021, 12:32 PM   #295
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Its been said that love isn't the opposite of hate; indifference is.
As can be attested by anybody who's banged an ex. The ones you had a stormy breakup with are so much more fun than the ones where you both just drifted off.
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Old 15th February 2021, 12:39 PM   #296
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
As can be attested by anybody who's banged an ex. The ones you had a stormy breakup with are so much more fun than the ones where you both just drifted off.
Church. All those touchy-feely things can be shoved discretely aside for a bit.

I'm trying to picture how the spectrum should really look. Maybe passion/indifference on the X-axis, then love/hate teeing off on the Y? A little resentment /carnality spiking off somewhere?
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Old 15th February 2021, 12:45 PM   #297
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Church. All those touchy-feely things can be shoved discretely aside for a bit.

I'm trying to picture how the spectrum should really look. Maybe passion/indifference on the X-axis, then love/hate teeing off on the Y? A little resentment /carnality spiking off somewhere?
Maybe they're all distinctly separate emotions and can be felt in any combination in any degree.
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Old 15th February 2021, 12:47 PM   #298
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
Maybe they're all distinctly separate emotions and can be felt in any combination in any degree.
Have you no reverence at all for the oversimplified rhetorical false dichotomy?
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Old 15th February 2021, 01:30 PM   #299
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Its been said that love isn't the opposite of hate; indifference is. A lot of these dichotomies don't really lie on a straight line.
Is this from Elie Wiesel's quote?
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Old 15th February 2021, 03:50 PM   #300
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Originally Posted by suren View Post
Me too. This reminds me the legend where Albert Einstein humiliated an atheist professor.
The argument was that cold is the absence of warm, darkness is the absence of light, bad is the absence of good, etc. Some Christians similarly justify hell as simply an absence of God/heaven/happiness. But this logic is flawed. For example does the absence of happiness mean sadness? In a strict logical sense no, you can be neither happy or sad, just neutral. The same with other things, such as pleasure - pain, good - bad, etc.
That's certainly what I was taught in church. But it is contradicted both by Revelation and other Biblical books of prophecy, and by most Christian philosophers and theologians in history.
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Old 16th February 2021, 05:22 AM   #301
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Of course, then there's also the problem of--just arguing that something must logically exist, even if it's a valid argument, doesn't mean that it must resemble a specific description offered.
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