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Tags loose change , part 1 , 911 conspiracy theory

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Old 22nd March 2006, 01:59 PM   #361
senorpogo
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Originally Posted by Alek View Post
What's silly is you putting words in my mouth and completely misrepresenting, misconstruing, and misunderstanding what I've said, and then summarizing your confusion and attributing it to me.

That's par for the course, I guess.
Alek, I'm not trying to put words into your mouth. I'm just sincerely trying to understand exactly what you're asserting. I thought I had done a decent job of pulling together your points from various other posts you had made.

If you feel that I misrepresented your points, please clarify exactly what I said that was incorrect.
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Old 22nd March 2006, 04:05 PM   #362
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Originally Posted by Alek View Post
What's silly is you putting words in my mouth and completely misrepresenting, misconstruing, and misunderstanding what I've said, and then summarizing your confusion and attributing it to me.

That's par for the course, I guess.
Are you now claiming that someone hacked your account and said all those things w/o your knoweledge?

Because someone called "Alek" posted all that in this thread.

And, one more time, do you have any witnesses who saw anything but an airplane hit the Pentagon?
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Old 22nd March 2006, 05:00 PM   #363
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senorpogo
Originally Posted by senorpogo View Post
To review Alek (just because I want to get this all straight in my head), you are claiming...

Individuals within the United States government plotted with big business globalists and members of the United Nations to crash radio controlled planes and plant explosive charges in the Twin Towers and 7 WTC building with the aim of completely destroying - not just damaging - all of them in hopes to psychologically attack the American public and create an environment where neo-conservative forces - whose agenda is secretly the same as the globalists and the United Nations - could enact policies that limit our civil rights and allow an invasion in the Middle East which all, ultimately, somehow makes America ripe for an invasion by an unseen, unnamed globalist army. To assist the agenda, forces inside the world media have intentionally suppressed the truth and provided disinformation all in an attempt to further the plot along. Despite the sheer magnitude of the conspiracy, all these forces have been able to keep everyone involved, on all levels, completely silent. http://www.internationalskeptics.com...&postcount=353
Alek
Originally Posted by Alek View Post
What's silly is you putting words in my mouth and completely misrepresenting, misconstruing, and misunderstanding what I've said, and then summarizing your confusion and attributing it to me.

That's par for the course, I guess. http://www.internationalskeptics.com...&postcount=356

Originally Posted by senorpogo View Post
Individuals within the United States government
Originally Posted by Alek
It's apparent that the emotional cost of the realization that elements in your government were responsible for the deaths of nearly 3,000 people is too high for you. http://www.internationalskeptics.com...&postcount=106
Originally Posted by Alek
Yet clearly, that is what you're doing with the official government conspiracy. http://www.internationalskeptics.com...&postcount=126
Originally Posted by senorpogo View Post
plotted with big business globalists
Originally Posted by Alek
The globalists who control the US government have created these monsters, and have embroiled us into unjust wars on the basis of lies and deceit. http://www.internationalskeptics.com...&postcount=257
Originally Posted by senorpogo View Post
and members of the United Nations
Originally Posted by Alek
Originally Posted by senorpogo View Post
to crash radio controlled planes
Originally Posted by Alek
I suspect they used global hawk technology to pilot the planes into their targets. http://www.internationalskeptics.com...&postcount=299
Originally Posted by senorpogo View Post
and plant explosive charges in the Twin Towers and 7 WTC building with the aim of completely destroying - not just damaging - all of them
Originally Posted by Alek
The physical and other evidence indicate a controlled demolition. http://www.internationalskeptics.com...7&postcount=94
Originally Posted by senorpogo View Post
in hopes to psychologically attack the American public
Originally Posted by Alek
9/11 was a false flag psychological operation carried out by powerful elements inside the US government http://www.internationalskeptics.com...&postcount=241
Originally Posted by senorpogo View Post
and create an environment where neo-conservative forces -
Originally Posted by Alek
conditions for a "new Pearl Harbor" to accelerate the neo-conservative agenda. http://www.internationalskeptics.com...&postcount=241
Originally Posted by senorpogo View Post
whose agenda is secretly the same as the globalists
Originally Posted by Alek
The globalists who control the US government have created these monsters, and have embroiled us into unjust wars on the basis of lies and deceit. http://www.internationalskeptics.com...&postcount=257
Originally Posted by senorpogo View Post
and the United Nations -
Originally Posted by Alek
Originally Posted by senorpogo View Post
could enact policies that limit our civil rights and allow an invasion in the Middle East which all,
Originally Posted by Alek
Everyone with a conscience was and is angry over what transpired on 9/11. It represented a major paradigm shift in this country, and the world. It has created the pretext for an Orwellian police state here in the US, and an unprecedented US policy of pre-emptive war.http://www.internationalskeptics.com...0&postcount=82
Originally Posted by Alek
The objectives were twofold: To create the pretext for a panopticon police state domestically and to create the premise for wars of aggression in the middle east... http://www.internationalskeptics.com...&postcount=241
Originally Posted by senorpogo View Post
ultimately, somehow makes America ripe for an invasion by an unseen, unnamed globalist army.
Originally Posted by Alek
They can't conquer America without first bringing it to its knees. http://www.internationalskeptics.com...&postcount=299
Originally Posted by Alek
By "they" I'm referring to the globalists who want to institute a one-world government at the UN, and who control the US and US foreign policy, and who are constantly trying to undermine US sovereignty http://www.internationalskeptics.com...&postcount=318
Originally Posted by senorpogo View Post
To assist the agenda, forces inside the world media have intentionally suppressed the truth and provided disinformation all in an attempt to further the plot along.
Originally Posted by Alek
First of all, I personally recall watching this news being reported on CNBC, and then waiting for a follow-up which never occurred. It's as if the story just completely vanished. http://www.internationalskeptics.com...9&postcount=93
Originally Posted by Alek
It must be pretty fantastic for them to have the government, the mainstream media, and millions of little parrots like you doing the whitewashing for you. http://www.internationalskeptics.com...&postcount=163

Originally Posted by senorpogo View Post
This is what I've gathered from your posts.

Read that all out loud to yourself.
Doesn't it sound a little silly?
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Old 22nd March 2006, 05:06 PM   #364
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Originally Posted by claimee View Post
senorpogo
Alek
Well done, claimee!
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Old 22nd March 2006, 05:08 PM   #365
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Very nice.
Thanks.
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Old 22nd March 2006, 05:11 PM   #366
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Geez, can you nominate for a language award a post that had as original content only:

Originally Posted by claimee View Post
senorpogo
Alek
There ought to be a citation award! Nicely done.
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Old 22nd March 2006, 07:27 PM   #367
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Admit it, Alek, you don't really believe 'your' theory. You just aren't ready to face up to the waste of time spent giving it credence. But what's a bit of time wasted when there's a valuable lesson to be learned?
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Old 22nd March 2006, 08:00 PM   #368
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Originally Posted by orphia nay View Post
Admit it, Alek, you don't really believe 'your' theory. You just aren't ready to face up to the waste of time spent giving it credence. But what's a bit of time wasted when there's a valuable lesson to be learned?
He was lurking an hour or so ago. I hope he has taken a good hard look at this and realized how absolutely insane his CT is, but I doubt it. He'll probably go to the Loose Change forum where he can have his paranoia reinforced by the nutters there.
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Old 22nd March 2006, 08:53 PM   #369
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
[Zaary mode]
[documentary british accent]

Notice, gentle readers, how this specimen uses the term "conspiracy theory" to make the official government position on 9/11 seem as foolish as any other CT. Fascinating.

[/DBA]
[/Zaary]


Actually, it's Zaayr, and the proper capitalization was not observed - i.e. 'Gentle Reader', not 'gentle readers'.
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Old 22nd March 2006, 11:24 PM   #370
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Originally Posted by claimee View Post
senorpogo
Alek

You are my hero.
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Old 22nd March 2006, 11:48 PM   #371
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Originally Posted by manny View Post
Geez, can you nominate for a language award a post that had as original content only:

There ought to be a citation award! Nicely done.
Stop reading my mind and stealing my ideas, manny.

Rock on, claimee!
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Old 23rd March 2006, 12:03 AM   #372
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Yes, I'll second (or fifth or sixth) that admiration.

I'm relatively new here - wouldn't excellent reading comprehension, citation skills and long thread memory qualify as Language award nomination material?
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Old 23rd March 2006, 12:35 AM   #373
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I'm early on in wading through this thread, but I thought I'd throw this into the mix:

According to the videotaped discussion with one of his followers (whose name escapes me), bin Laden, knowledgeable in structural engineering, did not expect the Twin Towers to fall when planning the attack. He was, if I recall correctly, hoping for a symbolic strike rather than a truly destructive one. With that, one could suggest (so I will) that the actual outcome was more accidental than by design.

So imagine for a second that they didn't fall. There would've been considerable internal damage to the buildings, but from even a modest distance, it would look like a couple dozen windows and some supporting concrete columns had blown out. A large hole yes, but relative to the visual size of each tower, not a big deal.

My point is that, to all purposes, the NYC attack looks cataclysmic because it ended up being that way. And since it ended up being that way, there's going to be no shortage of people who will reverse-engineer what they would imagine is a significantly dramatic narrative to fit that end result.

A few 2-bit thugs flying airplanes into the ground because they're upset about the U.S.'s presence in Saudi Arabia as well as its support of Israel? Hardly seems to balance, now does it? But an orchestrated plot of intelligent, well-funded American insiders, hoping to put in motion a world-wide offensive to enrich themselves monetarily and politically for decades to come...well, that's more like it!
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Old 23rd March 2006, 12:49 AM   #374
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Originally Posted by Soapy Sam View Post
It is interesting to see how wrong your intuition can be about something like this. Looking at the Pentagon pictures Luke posted, I must admit I do find it hard to believe there is an aircraft in there.
An airplane is, physically, mostly empty space. For all its apparent size, an "air" plane, if you will.

Quote:
I find myself thinking- well if that's an engine in the red box, where is the wing it should be attached to? Surely there ought to be at least part of the wing visible outside the building?
Not if it was pulverized.

Not too many years ago I witnessed a crash of a modest-sized military helicopter. I watched it go almost vertical into the tarmac less than two city blocks from where I was standing. Made quite a sound, not to mention an impressive, black smoke cloud. All that was left on the ground were a few charred bits, the total of which would probably have fit in a carry-on suitcase.

Quote:
I also would expect, given the density of tourists in Washington DC and the ubiquity of cameras, to see at least one video of the impact actually happening...
Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.
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Old 23rd March 2006, 07:00 AM   #375
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Originally Posted by WildCat View Post
He was lurking an hour or so ago. I hope he has taken a good hard look at this and realized how absolutely insane his CT is, but I doubt it. He'll probably go to the Loose Change forum where he can have his paranoia reinforced by the nutters there.
I've been trying to entice some members of the Loose Change forum to come back up Alek. So far, no takers.

I'm considering watching the video again, pen in hand, and bringing my questions & challenges to their forum. Would anyone be interested in a JREF foray into the Loose Change home field? Registering an account is ridiculously simple.
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Old 23rd March 2006, 07:50 AM   #376
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Originally Posted by Regnad Kcin View Post
Not too many years ago I witnessed a crash of a modest-sized military helicopter. I watched it go almost vertical into the tarmac less than two city blocks from where I was standing. Made quite a sound, not to mention an impressive, black smoke cloud. All that was left on the ground were a few charred bits, the total of which would probably have fit in a carry-on suitcase.
Good point. While in Iraq, I was involved in the cleanup of one of our Apaches that crashed. I have a photo of the wreckage. I'm not sure if I can post it here (military has some wierd rules about what's allowed for the public). IN any case, the wreckage was gathered by us and placed in our bay (that's where my pic was taken).

It looks like a 10' diameter, 2' to 3' high pile of scrap. Nothing identifiable. I didn't believe it used to be a helicopter at first, until closer examination revelaed part of the nose gun that could be recognized.

There's just not much to aircraft. Also remember, this was an Apache. I'd venture a guess that these are built a bit sturdier than civillian aircraft, and it pretty much disintegrated on impact. Also, they're a bit slower than commercial jetliners, as well.

Just food for thought. I'll see if I can get some guidance on posting a pic of the wreckage for you all.
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Old 23rd March 2006, 08:46 AM   #377
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Originally Posted by chipmunk stew View Post
I've been trying to entice some members of the Loose Change forum to come back up Alek. So far, no takers.

I'm considering watching the video again, pen in hand, and bringing my questions & challenges to their forum. Would anyone be interested in a JREF foray into the Loose Change home field? Registering an account is ridiculously simple.
They're being particularly harsh on you, delphi. Not sure why--I'm the one who picked the fight. Maybe because you started the thread.
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Old 23rd March 2006, 09:57 AM   #378
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Originally Posted by chipmunk stew View Post
They're being particularly harsh on you, delphi. Not sure why--I'm the one who picked the fight. Maybe because you started the thread.
And I have my mug up there. They're probably jealous of my dashing good looks.
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Old 23rd March 2006, 10:19 AM   #379
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Originally Posted by delphi_ote View Post
And I have my mug up there. They're probably jealous of my dashing good looks.
Yes, well we longhairs are naturally better-looking than others. Some say my avatar looks arrogant. What do they know?

And I'm ready for those of the Loose Change forum who signed up for the JREF forums to get in here. Perhaps we can start the debate anew, because I'm too lazy to read through this entire thread. I read like the first three pages and the last four or so.

I have an interest in this kind of thing as two of my best friends are pretty certain that 9/11 was a government conspiracy. Of course, only two years ago they also believed the moon land was a hoax until I showed them. Oh I showed them!
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Old 23rd March 2006, 10:51 AM   #380
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Originally Posted by zaayrdragon View Post


Actually, it's Zaayr, and the proper capitalization was not observed - i.e. 'Gentle Reader', not 'gentle readers'.
Hey, be clement. That was my first time. Sorry about the name, though.
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Old 23rd March 2006, 12:04 PM   #381
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Wink

Originally Posted by Huntsman View Post
(military has some wierd rules about what's allowed for the public).
Could THIS be why there aren't more pictures of the Pentagon crash?

Nah. Gotta be a conspiracy.
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Old 23rd March 2006, 12:13 PM   #382
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I have two other general lines of questioning to attack the WTC demolition theory. Hopefully someone here has some knowledge of the process of blowing up buildings to provide the answers or point me in direction of some source.

1.) What kind of resources would it take to blow up all three buildings? How many tons of explosives? How many trained people to plant these explosives? How much time would it all take to plant all the charges? Could these charges be hidden to go unnoticed by people working within the building?

2.) If both of the towers were wired to blow, wouldn't the planes crashing into the towers detonate the explosives on those levels? Wouldn't that cause an instantenous crash of those levels above? Or do demolition charges require some other type of reaction to go off?
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Old 23rd March 2006, 01:00 PM   #383
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Good afternoon.

I was having a hard time believing the CT but if Charlie Sheen believes in it, it must be so.
Sheen: What 9/11 Hijackers?
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Old 23rd March 2006, 01:12 PM   #384
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Originally Posted by senorpogo View Post
I have two other general lines of questioning to attack the WTC demolition theory. Hopefully someone here has some knowledge of the process of blowing up buildings to provide the answers or point me in direction of some source.

1.) What kind of resources would it take to blow up all three buildings? How many tons of explosives? How many trained people to plant these explosives? How much time would it all take to plant all the charges? Could these charges be hidden to go unnoticed by people working within the building?
Excat amount for the WTC I don't have, but the Discovery Channel has a show on called "The Blasters" that cronicals several demo teams across the globe and what they run into on a job. Once of the number that jumps to mind, but I am fuzzy here, been a few weeks since I saw it.A team put in some 1300 charges to drop a convention center. The center was 3 storries tall, mostly open space with support columns, and I belive it was roughly 1000 feet by 1000 feet.
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Old 23rd March 2006, 01:40 PM   #385
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Sorry about the slow response, I've had a busy week. I'm going to have to address these points out of order.
Originally Posted by Alek View Post
Again I must confess to being mostly ignorant of the details of WW2 history, perhaps you can enlighten me on some of them. I just read a Pearl Harbor FAQ which had some interesting tidbits, for instance:

"Nagumo's fleet assembled in the remote anchorage of Tankan Bay in the Kurile Islands and departed in strictest secrecy for Hawaii on 26 November 1941. The ships' route crossed the North Pacific and avoided normal shipping lanes. At dawn 7 December 1941, the Japanese task force had approached undetected to a point slightly more than 200 miles north of Oahu. At this time the U.S. carriers were not at Pearl Harbor."

and:

"The Japanese success was overwhelming, but it was not complete. They failed to damage any American aircraft carriers, which by a stroke of luck, had been absent from the harbor. "

Here is a link which documents the location of the US carriers.
Well, that link lists precisely where the Pacific Fleet's carriers were at the time of the attack. As it says, Lexington and Enterprise were off delivering aircraft to Midway and Wake, while Saratoga was at San Diego on the way back from undergoing an overhaul in drydock at Bremerton, WA. What the page doesn't mention, in addition, is that Enterprise had been due back at Pearl on the 6th; the only reason she wasn't present for the attack was because she'd been delayed by bad weather. It's hard to credit that the absence of Enterprise was anything but coincidence, and likewise with Saratoga, since the overhaul had probably been scheduled long before the Japanese strike force ever sailed. And it simply doesn't make sense to attribute Lexington's absence to nefarious intent when the other two were just coincidences. There's still the possibility that the whole thing was orchestrated, but for that to be the case, the conspiracy would have to have gone well outside FDR's inner circle, and included a large number of high-ranking officers within the Pacific Fleet, and arguably Yamamoto and Nagumo as well, for the whole confluence of events to be that well timed.
Originally Posted by Alek View Post
I've read accounts which describe the opposite, that it was known that the monolithic battleship was quickly becoming obsolete.
Said accounts put the cart before the horse. American naval tactics in the Pacific, especially during 1942, were adapted to become heavily reliant on carriers precisely because the battle line was at the bottom of Pearl Harbor. As the Dutch say, "you have to the row with the oars that you have," and that is precisely what the Pacific Fleet learned to do.
Originally Posted by Alek View Post
I would say Stinnett is probably guilty of some self-aggrandizement here, by implying that his book is uncovering the "secret". It's probably pedantic to discredit him by suggesting that he should have said 59 years instead of 60. If the information was still mostly a secret after 1985 then he should probably be forgiven.
That's my point: neither of those facts were any longer secret by 1985. And as I noted previously, Spector states that authors like Beard, Tansill, etc. "claim that since the U.S. was reading the Japanese code, Washington must have known in advance about the attack"; those authors made these claims between 1948 and 1954, indicating that some knowledge of American cryptanalysis was already public at that time. The existence of contingency plan Rainbow 5 had been leaked and widely publicized in 1941, before the US even entered the war.
Originally Posted by Alek View Post
Isn't it a fallacy to suggest Stinnett's credibility depends on Irving? Stinnett doesn't have any control over who supports his work and who doesn't. If Adolf Hitler supports Josef Wagner's work, does this discredit Wagner?
You're right, it doesn't reflect on Stinett. It does reflect on the Greek television program in question, and anyone else who might cite Irving in an effort to lend credibility to Stinett. Irving's agreement doesn't (necessarily) detract from Stinett's credibility, but it certainly doesn't add to it.
Of course, Stinett and Irving likely have different agendas. Stinett probably believes the US should have stayed out of the war, and would have were it not for FDR's actions, whereas Irving, as a Holocaust denier, is seeking to downplay Nazi atrocities by inflating the supposed wrongdoings of the Allies.
Originally Posted by Alek View Post
I don't understand how this could be academic in context. The essence of Pearl Harbor was that it was a surprise attack, which was responsible for slaughtering 2400 people. If indeed there was foreknowledge, the element of surprise would have been lost, the casualties would have been far less and the US Navy could have parried the attack.

I imagine Stinnett's point is that absent such a brutal surprise attack with so many casualties, absent the horrific stories of trapped men burning and drowning inside the doomed battleships, and assuming a successful parry of Nagumo's attack, the American public would have remained disinterested in the war.

Your point is well taken though, Nagumo's actions would have resulted in a declaration of war by the US in any case. However, the relative lack of US casualties from a failed japanese incursion as opposed to a successful surprise attack would have undoubtedly resulted in more polarization and less unity and jingoism.
I disagree, for a number of reasons.
First, even if the attack had not actually managed to achieve tactical surprise, it would still have been an act of war. The difference would have been akin to that between a succesful mugging and an unsuccesful one; either way, it's still a mugging, and the intended victim is going to be outraged.
Second, the late announcement of the breaking off of negotiations (intended to take place half an hour before the attack started, but actually delivered later due to complications decrypting the message at the Japanese embassy in DC) was also regarded at the time as perfidious.
As it was, Congress voted almost unanimously (one dissenting vote) in favor of declaring war; perhaps if the attack had been discovered and parried, the majority would have been smaller, but I suspect it would still have been a sizeable majority.
Originally Posted by Alek View Post
It means the dialectic explains a pattern recurrent throughout history of governments using false flag attacks or similar deceptions to embroil their unwilling populaces into war. I don't try to select or fit evidence. For me it represents an element of a cynical worldview which is a starting point for historical review.
If you use a "a cynical worldview" as "a starting point for historical review," you're assuming a priori that every action is undertaken out of base motives, which means you're working towards a predetermined conclusion. That being the case, I don't see how you can avoid manipulating the evidence to fit said outcome. Moreover, I don't see what dialectic has to do with this. Dialectic consists of thesis and antithesis resulting in synthesis; this is all very well for philosophical discussions, but its application is limited, because in real life (and in the scientific method), the evidence may come down on only side.
Originally Posted by Alek View Post
The US government funded the Mujahedeen in the '80s as they repelled the Soviet Union's invasion of Afghanistan. Elements of the Mujahedeen became the Taliban.
The constant factor there is the Pakistani Directorate for Inter-Services Intelligence (ISI). Because the US intelligence community had few assets in Afghanistan even prior to the Soviet invasion, it had little knowledge of the country's internal politics, and routed much of its support through the ISI. Problem was, the ISI used the funds provided by the US to support the factions of its own choosing, which were not necessarily the factions the US would have chosen to back had it had all the requisite information. And yes, the ISI was also the primary backer of the Taliban.
Originally Posted by Alek View Post
Saddam Hussein has been a CIA asset for some 40 years.
Uh, no. After the 1968 coup, the Ba'athist regime fostered relations with the Soviet Union, culminating in the Iraqi-Soviet Friendship Treaty of April 1972. Subsequently, the Soviet Union and other Warsaw Pact member states sold the Iraqis all the weapons they wanted, from small arms through AFVs to fighter-bombers. In addition, the Ba'athists purchased training in surveillance and interrogation techniques for their security/intelligence services--the Estikhbarat (military intelligence), the Amn (state intelligence) and Mukhabarat (Ba'ath party intelligence)--from the Sovs and the East Germans in the 1970s. Many of those sales were on credit, too; by the time the Ba'athist government was toppled in 2003, it still owed billions of dollars to Russia.

Now, if PBS, UPI or some pajamahadin can "uncover" that Saddam was "a CIA asset" during that time, it's a reasonable assumption that the KGB could have done so as well. Does it seem plausible that the Sovs would provide billions in weaponry, on credit, and details of their own counter-intelligence methods, to a government whose vice-president, later president, was a CIA asset? The notion is laughable. Or it would be, if so many credulous idiots didn't buy into the idea.
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Old 23rd March 2006, 01:47 PM   #386
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On the demo charges, I could give some figures on how big a charge you'd need to, say, cut a particular column, if I knew the column diameter and material (concreate, steel, reinforced concrete, etc). But I don't know how many columns would be needed to topple a floor or whatever. And the amount of charge depends on how it's placed, as well...whether it's a block on one side, blocks on both sides, wrap around, triangle, sheet charge, roll, shaped cutting charge, etc.

On the plane igniting the explosives, it would depend on what was used. Military grade C-4, for example, is amazingly stable. You can jump on it, chew it, throw it, drop it, shoot it, etc and it won't go off (shooting has a slight possibility of setting it off, but is unlikely...tracer rounds make it more likely). You can even burn C-4 without setting it off (makes a respectable incindiary, although more expensive than traditional ones).

Basically, the plane could have caused a few charges to go off, but most would have remained undetonated (although they would have burned).

Now, the problem comes in with the way the C-4 is wired. If an electrical ignition was used, the thin wires would have rather quickly broken apart and seperated in the fires, so a controlled demolition would have been impossible (wires running through the high fire areas would have been degraded/cut by the heat, at least have insulation melted away, shorting out and disrupting the circuit). So, you'd get a sparse and sporatic detonation...far from what's needed for a controlled demolition.

If you used non-electric, you're in for even more trouble. You can use blast cord or MDI. Blast cord is a primary explosive, not a secondary, and would have been set off by the fires. This, of course, would have set off all the charges along that cord, and ruined the controlled blast setup. MDI is a "shock wave" tube, and it would have melted (failing to provide the shock wave to detonate blasting caps), and impact could well have caused some of the charges to blow prematurely.

On rethinking this, though, the heat would have caused blasting caps to go, which in turn would have caused charges to detonate. So yeah, the impacts and subsequent fires should have set off some charges (as even electric systems, to my knowledge, still need volatile primary explosives in blasting caps to set off the secondary explosives such as C4).
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Old 23rd March 2006, 02:42 PM   #387
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A lot of our civil rights haven't been taken. Why haven't "they" staged more attacks so they can take them?
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Old 23rd March 2006, 03:12 PM   #388
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I'm currently watching the Loose Change 2nd Edition and noticed something kind of funny. At around 43 minutes into it, he mentions that there were two explosions reported after the first tower was hit. He even plays an audio tape that records the two explosions. The second one hits around 9.05 seconds after the first. What's funny about this is that at around 35 minutes into it, he states that for the top of the tower to reach the ground at free fall, it takes 9.2 seconds. If you take that into consideration, wouldn't it be more likely that the second "explosion" is actually debris falling from the tower rather than a second explosion?

This makes even more sense when you take into consideration that the first explosion on the tape is not as loud as the second. The tape was recorded on the 36th floor of One Liberty Plaza. He states that this is across the street. However, while it is across the street from the site, its actually a block and a half from Tower Two. The tower was hit between the 93rd and 99th floors. The recording was made closer to the ground than where the plane hit. In addition, due to the direction the plane hit Tower Two, some debris would have been projected towards One Liberty Plaza. It makes a little more sense to me that this second explosion is actually debris hitting One Liberty Plaza or the ground nearby. Maybe I'm over-thinking it though...
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Old 23rd March 2006, 09:08 PM   #389
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Well, I'm up through page 5 on the thread (but will continue on). Most notable has been the contributions of Alek. A clearly intelligent chap, no irony intended.

Looking at the modern era, considering the JFK assassination, the moon landing(s), and now 9/11, there does seem to be a predilection among our species for complexity over simplicity when it comes to certain event analysis and deconstruction. I wonder if this isn't a byproduct of our higher abilities to think/conceive in the first place. Put another way, as the saying goes, if what you have is a hammer, everything starts looking like a nail.
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Old 24th March 2006, 12:43 AM   #390
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Originally Posted by Alek
So now you are aligned in defending the official government conspiracy theory...
Originally Posted by Belz...
[Zaary mode]
[documentary british accent]

Notice, gentle readers, how this specimen uses the term "conspiracy theory" to make the official government position on 9/11 seem as foolish as any other CT. Fascinating.

[/DBA]
[/Zaary]
Yes, I've noticed that numerous times as well.
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Old 24th March 2006, 01:17 AM   #391
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Old 24th March 2006, 05:47 AM   #392
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Alek seems to have gotten very quiet in the face of the humiliation given to him by claimee. Hard to show up when you are proven liar I guess.
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Old 24th March 2006, 05:54 AM   #393
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Originally Posted by azazal View Post
Excat amount for the WTC I don't have, but the Discovery Channel has a show on called "The Blasters" that cronicals several demo teams across the globe and what they run into on a job. Once of the number that jumps to mind, but I am fuzzy here, been a few weeks since I saw it.A team put in some 1300 charges to drop a convention center. The center was 3 storries tall, mostly open space with support columns, and I belive it was roughly 1000 feet by 1000 feet.

Don't think that one's been on in the UK but I do remember a program that followed a a family demo team taking down an old sports stadium. The sheer amount of physical preparation involved, weakening columns, drilling holes, wiring, checking, rechecking and triple checking involved does make me think that the CTs get all their technical information from Arnie films.
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Old 24th March 2006, 07:01 AM   #394
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Originally Posted by Ace_of_Sevens View Post
A lot of our civil rights haven't been taken. Why haven't "they" staged more attacks so they can take them?
I think they're having problems with their server. As soon as they get it up and running, the attacks will commence!
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Old 25th March 2006, 09:11 AM   #395
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Looks like Alek has fled his humilation and gone to the Loose Change forum for warm milk and cookies. Awwwwww.
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Old 25th March 2006, 04:43 PM   #396
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Originally Posted by kookbreaker View Post
Looks like Alek has fled his humilation and gone to the Loose Change forum for warm milk and cookies. Awwwwww.
'Tis a shame too. He brought many a tear to my eye.

-=-=-=-

In other news, I emailed the guy that made the video. Well, sent him a MySpace message actually. He seems like a rational fellow.

He has yet to respond, but I can understand if he's busy. I just thought that I'd have a shot at talking to him about this considering we are around the same age and have many of the same interests, according to his MySpace profile anyway.
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Old 26th March 2006, 12:12 AM   #397
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Originally Posted by emperorchaos View Post
'Tis a shame too. He brought many a tear to my eye.

-=-=-=-

In other news, I emailed the guy that made the video. Well, sent him a MySpace message actually. He seems like a rational fellow.

He has yet to respond, but I can understand if he's busy. I just thought that I'd have a shot at talking to him about this considering we are around the same age and have many of the same interests, according to his MySpace profile anyway.
Funny, they won't post where they can't ban...

Loose Change, where are you? Upchurch, expedite their posting priveleges here!
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Old 26th March 2006, 12:51 AM   #398
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Are these 9/11 conspiracy theories still around? I thought they had all been debunked.

First, the conspiracy theories leave huge questions unanswered or would require conspiracies on such an unimagineably huge scale as to be impossible. The orignal conspiracy theory is generally attributed to Thierry Meyssan, a super-leftist government-hater, who I believe has said that he doesn't know how the conspiracies could have been pulled off and leaves the "big" questions (how the conspiracy was done, by whom, and for what purpose) unanswered.

Second, the conspiracy theories are based on "problems" with minor details rasied by unqualified theorists: I think the WTC should have not have fallen. There should be more debris. The hole in the Pentagon isn't as big as holes in other buildings hit by aircraft. The exact shade of blue on this piece of wreckage doesn't match the exact shade of blue on this other picture of an American Airlines plane. A witness said the plane "sounded like a missle." And so on.

Third, even these minor details have all been debunked by professionals in the appropriate fields. Even if we simply woke up the day after the attack and had to figure out what had happened, the overwhelming evidence would lead to the conclusion of planes hitting buildings. Any other conclusion could only be supported by evidence of some super-huge impossibly massive cover up.

A good short artical with some interesting links is at http://urbanlegends.about.com/library/blflight77.htm
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Old 26th March 2006, 09:40 PM   #399
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my 2 cents

You know, I just spent a couple of hours reading through the entire thread.

First of all, while I do appreciate some of the conversations on the site, I was pretty disappointed with the majority of the debate between fellow skeptics.

I must say, I find the tone of many to be condescending. If not at first, it sure gets there pretty quickly. I understand that that is part of human nature but very few of the many who participate as such will admit it (I am not leaving myself out of that equation either).

Without going into agreement with Alex’s' views or not, I am going to observe that he apologized when he felt he was wrong, he admitted that he had been mistaken when he felt so and managed for the most part to not be drawn into what I considered to be baiting from some as well as some attempts to intellectually bully him.

I came across the thread while doing some researching of the film after viewing it in its entirety. Yes, I do think it was a bit disingenuous for the author of the thread not to admit up front that he had not seen the entire film. Yes, I do think it was not entirely appropriate for Alex to call him a liar.
Yes, it did degrade into a rather childish debate about if it was a lie or not. Kind of reminded me of the Clinton deposition where he says "..it depends on what the definition of is is.."

I understood his use of the Hitler quote to be saying the "big lie" philosophy is not only a philosophy but had in fact been turned into a way of life by Hitler and that one should be conscious of past evils, remember them, not deny that it is not possible for something similar to happen again. For those who wanted to paint him with the brush of an anti-Semite just for quoting Hitler I would suggest a bit more patience and understanding would go a long way for a more productive debate.

I get what Alex was feeling for the most part though I do not necessarily agree with all of it but why should it be unthinkable that our, or any other government should lie to us when we know for a fact it has happened in the past?

What has happened that would dissuade them from that practice? His idea that it might be a Psy-op is not totally out of hand especially since it is a military principle that wars should be fought using these types of methods more and more in the future.

If 911 is truly an extraordinary event in world history, does it not deserve exploring honestly the extraordinary context and possible beginnings it might have had? if not, why not?

Do any of you think that my impression that the discussion became polarized between the 'kooks" and the rationalists is flawed?? If so why?

For myself I would have liked the discussion to have focused on the effect of a film like this, the cottage industry that surrounds events such as 911 and how all of that keeps us distracted from the main issues which I believe Alex was attempting to discuss like the dissolution of our freedoms, the possible explanations for that, and the current and continuing move towards globalization and a discussion of its pitfalls and positive possibilities.

A few words for Alex if you are listening. While I hear what you are saying and understand your concerns, you might want to consider that films like "loose Change" may be playing to your emotions which can sometimes be detrimental to ones reasoning. It is not that some things in the film might not have validity; just that the film may have its own separate agenda and it may not be what you think. It seems like films which do this are currently popular '"what the bleep do we know" would be a good example.

Facts do not indicate reasons in all cases. I will give you my personal experience that is relevant in this case.

Originally, I was going to be on flight 11, the first one to hit the towers. I changed my reservation to a later flight so I wouldn't have to get my mom up so early. When I finally was able to get back out, I took the same flight back to LA.

I was removed from the airplane after boarding by state police and some of the suit guys with ear pieces (I have a dark complection and was particularly suntanned as well as unshaven). I was held for some minutes outside of the aircraft and finally moved back to the gate. When I questioned why I had been removed, I was told that I had had an altercation at the check-in counter as well as at the security check point. I explained that I found that strange since I had originated from Long Island and was connecting through Boston and did not go through the check in , nor, security at Logan airport.

This was the excuse the airline had used to call the police to get me off the plane. When I confronted the airline personnel and demanded to know the reason I was removed I was told that some of the passengers, flight attendants were "..Intimidated by me." The trooper said the pilot told him that I was suspicious because I looked him right in the eye when I boarded.

I also personally knew someone on flight 11. I know they are not around anymore.

I mention all of this to give an example of what fear can do. How authority in their fear can overstep their boundaries and affect the liberties of another. How as a nation we are not all we are cracked up to be.

When I was not allowed to continue my flight (I was put in a hotel and allowed to fly the following day). I explained that while I found my situation completely understandable, I did not find it excusable. I filed a discrimination complaint with the DOT and several years later, the airlines was fined and had to take some sort of corrective action.

Another thing is, if one were to just look at the facts: I changed my reservation, then when I traveled again I was removed from the plane, I guess you can see the possibility of someone turning that into me being some sort of player in a nefarious plot when in fact, I had just been concerned about getting my mom up too early (thank goodness for moms!).

I appreciated your input and hope in the future that persons who are willing to come to this site and are serious in thier discussions will be treated with a bit more dignity.
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Old 26th March 2006, 11:18 PM   #400
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Originally Posted by diggingdeeper View Post
Yes, I do think it was a bit disingenuous for the author of the thread not to admit up front that he had not seen the entire film. .
I brought this up at LC as well, just how much of the bible or a cartoon do you have to read or watch to know its utter make believe?

He may well have found it BS in 30 seconds.

I didnt, but I dont know much
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