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Old 13th December 2021, 10:48 PM   #161
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Old 13th December 2021, 10:49 PM   #162
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Old 14th December 2021, 04:14 AM   #163
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Honestly, we do not know.

Certain quantum experiments produce results which look like there is randomness at a fundamental level. But we don’t really understand it. If the Everet many worlds interpretation is correct, the results aren’t random, all possible results occur.
But apparently which "world" we find ourselves in remains random.
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Old 14th December 2021, 09:17 AM   #164
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
But apparently which "world" we find ourselves in remains random.
It appears random. There is a difference, though it is subtle.
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Old 14th December 2021, 09:52 AM   #165
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Doesn’t Feynman’s “Sum of all paths” approach to particle interaction suggest that the reality we find ourselves in may simply be the sum of all possibilities?

Layman’s understanding here, but I kinda like that idea


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Old 16th December 2021, 04:41 AM   #166
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Hot damn. Senex reversed global warming. Atta boy, Clarence!
I let one slip through my fingers. He/she had a wing pattern that brought tears to my eyes. Me and my stupid receptiveness to beauty. That was the one that undoubtedly caused the tornadoes around Kentucky. That crap is all on me now.

The moral is to not be like me. Be ruthless!
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Old 16th December 2021, 05:02 AM   #167
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To the butterfly effect, we experience something like that with our vision. Our cones and rods can be activated by a light quanta, i.e. a single photon. Which means we can act on a macro scale to the smallest scale i.e. the world of quantum weirdness.

We have a neural "noise" filter which means that it takes around 5 to 9 photons within 100ms to activate a neuro response from a light sensing cell before that is passed back to the couple of pounds of mush in our skull, that acts to help reduce noise in the system, some of that noise is inherent given the "randomness or not" of quanta.
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Old 17th December 2021, 01:52 AM   #168
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Originally Posted by Hellbound View Post
Doesn’t Feynman’s “Sum of all paths” approach to particle interaction suggest that the reality we find ourselves in may simply be the sum of all possibilities?

Layman’s understanding here, but I kinda like that idea


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Be especially wary of ideas that you both do not understand and like.

I'm not sure what the "sum of all possibilities" means, but that isn't what reality is.

In quantum mechanics, particles are probability functions when they are not interacting with other particles, and they are where they are in a specific space-time at the exact point in time that they interact with another particle. We call that instant in time wave function collapse. For that single tick, the particle is where it is. Then it becomes another probability function moving in a different direction until it interacts with another particle again.

This fundamental randomness means that the deterministic universe that our ancestors imagined is not what is. You can't calculate an outcome from an initial condition, no matter how much information you have and how finely you calculate.

But it gets even fuzzier. Heisenberg's uncertainty principle says that it is impossible to know exactly where a particle is and exactly what direction a particle is moving in at the same time. So even if physics were deterministic, you still wouldn't be able to take accurate measurements.

With the uncertainty of what exactly the initial conditions are, and the randomness of how they progress at every interaction, where is there room to be finely sensitive to initial conditions? Not in physical reality. Not in the literal butterfly.

Chaos theory is a branch of mathematics that describes deterministic systems that are subject to minute changes in initial state with drastic and unpredictable results.

I'm not sure how we could apply chaos theory to non deterministic systems. I'd be interested if anybody could speak to it.
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Old 17th December 2021, 05:09 AM   #169
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The sum of all paths thing is an integral part of quantum mechanics. It’s called the path integral formulation.
Simply put, when a particle travels from A to B, in quantum mechanics, it could take an infinite number of paths to get there, each with its own probability. To calculate the probability of a particle ending up somewhere, you have to consider all possible paths and their respective probabilities.
It seems as if the particle does take all possible paths (as in the two-slit experiment) and not one of all possible paths.


Oh, almost forgot. I assume applying chaos theory to non deterministic systems would lead to total and utter CHAOS.
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Old 17th December 2021, 06:47 AM   #170
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Is the 'Butterfly Effect' Literally True?

Originally Posted by Cheetah View Post
The sum of all paths thing is an integral part of quantum mechanics. It’s called the path integral formulation.
Simply put, when a particle travels from A to B, in quantum mechanics, it could take an infinite number of paths to get there, each with its own probability. To calculate the probability of a particle ending up somewhere, you have to consider all possible paths and their respective probabilities.
It seems as if the particle does take all possible paths (as in the two-slit experiment) and not one of all possible paths.


Oh, almost forgot. I assume applying chaos theory to non deterministic systems would lead to total and utter CHAOS.

Thanks, Cheetah. Sum of all paths was what I meant, just got the wrong word

And digger: thanks for the warning. I do have some understanding of quantum mechanics, but it’s superficial. I can’t “do the math”, so I have no illusions of finding that theory of everything or disproving relativity . But I do read popularizations of the science from recognized experts, and try to avoid the “edge” theories. The sum of paths approach is pretty well established, I just like the “sum of all possibilities” interpretation on it. At least it’s more parsimonious than many-worlds!

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Old 17th December 2021, 08:54 AM   #171
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OK, I see. So the answer is, we just don't know. When the particle is a probability function, all possibilities exist. Shroedinger's cat is both alive and dead at the same time until you open the box. But when you open the box and look at the cat, it is either alive or dead and the other cat ceases to exist. So the world that we observe is not the sum of all paths.

We don't know where those other possibilities go. Some people think that the universe is constantly branching, that all possibilities continue to exist but we only experience one at a time. But there is no evidence for this.

Another possibility is that there is a deeper level where determinism reasserts itself... that the apparent randomness is actually based on a deterministic process that we do not understand. But there is no evidence for that either.

We just don't know the nature of reality, and we might never. What we can say, is that our current mathematical model which best describes the reality that we observe works very well by relying on probability, and that there does not appear to be a deterministic explanation.
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Old 17th December 2021, 09:34 AM   #172
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Originally Posted by digger View Post
OK, I see. So the answer is, we just don't know. When the particle is a probability function, all possibilities exist. Shroedinger's cat is both alive and dead at the same time until you open the box. But when you open the box and look at the cat, it is either alive or dead and the other cat ceases to exist. So the world that we observe is not the sum of all paths.
No, it is.
If you don’t incorporate all possible paths in your calculations you will end up with predicted results that do not agree with experiment.
What that means in terms of how reality works at a fundamental level I don’t know.
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Old 17th December 2021, 10:43 AM   #173
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Originally Posted by digger View Post
OK, I see. So the answer is, we just don't know. When the particle is a probability function, all possibilities exist. Shroedinger's cat is both alive and dead at the same time until you open the box. But when you open the box and look at the cat, it is either alive or dead and the other cat ceases to exist. So the world that we observe is not the sum of all paths.


…snip…
But remember that thought experiment was created to point out absurdity, how it’s been taken since is akin to how the “Big Bang” theory was named.
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Old 17th December 2021, 11:27 AM   #174
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Originally Posted by Cheetah View Post
No, it is.
If you don’t incorporate all possible paths in your calculations you will end up with predicted results that do not agree with experiment.
What that means in terms of how reality works at a fundamental level I don’t know.
Neither does anyone else. Based on my understanding, I prefer the theory that the universe is broken, and the Universe Repair Squad is backed up fixing other universes at the time, so we have to deal with half dead cats until they get around to fixing it. I've heard rumors that there is some sort of argument about the warranty.
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Old 17th December 2021, 11:58 AM   #175
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
Neither does anyone else. Based on my understanding, I prefer the theory that the universe is broken, and the Universe Repair Squad is backed up fixing other universes at the time, so we have to deal with half dead cats until they get around to fixing it. I've heard rumors that there is some sort of argument about the warranty.
God's last message to his creation, according to the Hitch Hiker's Guide to the Galaxy:

We apologise for the inconvenience
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Old 17th December 2021, 08:58 PM   #176
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Yeah, but what do you expect from a seven day rush job?
Obviously didn’t think this thing through.
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Old 18th December 2021, 07:53 AM   #177
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Originally Posted by Cheetah View Post
No, it is.
If you don’t incorporate all possible paths in your calculations you will end up with predicted results that do not agree with experiment.
What that means in terms of how reality works at a fundamental level I don’t know.
The predictive equations are probabilistic. You need the probabilities to add up to 1 in order for the equations to fit together. As far as we can tell right now, at the periods in time when the quantum system is not interacting with anything outside of it, all of those possibilities do exist at once.

But, when the system interacts with other particles, the wave function "collapses" into a single outcome. The rest of the possibilities do not exist at that point in time, as far as we can observe.
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Old 18th December 2021, 08:29 AM   #178
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OK. The wave function has collapsed, the particle has hit the detector, which of two possible slits did it pass through to get there?
I bet it wasn’t the left one, what do you say?
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Old 18th December 2021, 01:12 PM   #179
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There’s no action that doesn’t cause a reaction, and there’s no reaction that isn’t an action.

Rinse and repeat . . .
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Old 19th December 2021, 06:21 PM   #180
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Originally Posted by Cheetah View Post
Yeah, but what do you expect from a seven day rush job?
Obviously didn’t think this thing through.

And Gawd only worked six of those seven days. Day seven was a no-show.
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Old 21st December 2021, 08:57 PM   #181
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Originally Posted by Cheetah View Post
OK. The wave function has collapsed, the particle has hit the detector, which of two possible slits did it pass through to get there?
I bet it wasn’t the left one, what do you say?
If you set up a detector at the slits to determine which one it goes through, than the wave function collapses at the slit, and you don't get the interference pattern.

If you do not set up a detector at the slits, the photon is a wave function and passed through both slits.
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Old 22nd December 2021, 01:27 AM   #182
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Yes indeed.
The interference patten is a direct result of the “particles” (or wave function) talking all possible paths.
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