ISF Logo   IS Forum
Forum Index Register Members List Events Mark Forums Read Help

Go Back   International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Social Issues & Current Events
 


Welcome to the International Skeptics Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today.
Tags police issues , police misconduct charges

Reply
Old 6th January 2019, 02:28 AM   #921
Nessie
Penultimate Amazing
 
Nessie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 11,387
Originally Posted by Baylor View Post
When in fact I've addressed this several times. Guess I have to do it again. When a racial minority murders at a rate of 10 times the racial majority, the bar of self defense will be lower than what it is in a small lily white country like Scotland. This is just another not-so-subtle "look how great things are when it's only white people!" argument
That is not an argument you have made before. Why is "the bar of self defence" lower when a racial minority murders more than the racial majority?
__________________
Audiophile/biker/sceptic
Nessie is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th January 2019, 02:36 AM   #922
Nessie
Penultimate Amazing
 
Nessie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 11,387
Originally Posted by Baylor View Post
Blacks murder less when they're surrounded by whites. You guys really need to start thinking things through.
The topic here is police behaviour, you are now trolling the thread trying to switch it to black behaviour as you clearly try and blame blacks for the US police and gun violence, whilst accusing me of being the racist.
__________________
Audiophile/biker/sceptic
Nessie is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th January 2019, 02:44 AM   #923
Baylor
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Spokane, WA
Posts: 7,072
Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
That is not an argument you have made before.
http://www.internationalskeptics.com...4#post12551024
Baylor is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th January 2019, 02:48 AM   #924
Nessie
Penultimate Amazing
 
Nessie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 11,387
Originally Posted by Baylor View Post
There is no mention of self defence in that post. Please link to and quote you previously making the argument that "when a racial minority murders at a rate of 10 times the racial majority, the bar of self defense will be lower..."

Then please provide the links and quotes I requested here;

http://www.internationalskeptics.com...4#post12554204

Then answer this "Why is "the bar of self defence" lower when a racial minority murders more than the racial majority?"
__________________
Audiophile/biker/sceptic
Nessie is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th January 2019, 03:27 AM   #925
Baylor
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Spokane, WA
Posts: 7,072
Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
The topic here is police behaviour, you are now trolling the thread trying to switch it to black behaviour as you clearly try and blame blacks for the US police and gun violence, whilst accusing me of being the racist.
It's not possible to separate the police and the population that's being police. Diverse societies like the US bring different challenges to the police force. You have made it abundantly clear you to not value diverse societies and prefer to live with whites only.
Baylor is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th January 2019, 03:35 AM   #926
Nessie
Penultimate Amazing
 
Nessie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 11,387
Originally Posted by Baylor View Post
It's not possible to separate the police and the population that's being police. Diverse societies like the US bring different challenges to the police force.
You are blaming black people for a problem that is also present amongst other races and in this thread, the police.

Quote:
You have made it abundantly clear you to not value diverse societies and prefer to live with whites only.
Please link to and quote me saying that I do not value diverse societies and prefer to live with whites only. Failure to do so means you accept you are lying and you should apologise.
__________________
Audiophile/biker/sceptic
Nessie is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th January 2019, 03:36 AM   #927
Nessie
Penultimate Amazing
 
Nessie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 11,387
Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
There is no mention of self defence in that post. Please link to and quote you previously making the argument that "when a racial minority murders at a rate of 10 times the racial majority, the bar of self defense will be lower..."

Then please provide the links and quotes I requested here;

http://www.internationalskeptics.com...4#post12554204

Then answer this "Why is "the bar of self defence" lower when a racial minority murders more than the racial majority?"
Baylor, stop dodging the above and provide the links and quotes and answers I requested.
__________________
Audiophile/biker/sceptic
Nessie is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th January 2019, 03:43 AM   #928
Baylor
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Spokane, WA
Posts: 7,072
Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
You are blaming black people for a problem that is also present amongst other races and in this thread, the police.



Please link to and quote me saying that I do not value diverse societies and prefer to live with whites only. Failure to do so means you accept you are lying and you should apologise.
The way you endlessly rant about "US gun violence" means you are the most put-off by blacks.

Last edited by Baylor; 6th January 2019 at 04:05 AM.
Baylor is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th January 2019, 03:44 AM   #929
Baylor
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Spokane, WA
Posts: 7,072
Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
That is not an argument you have made before.
http://www.internationalskeptics.com...5#post12552175
Baylor is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th January 2019, 04:39 AM   #930
Archie Gemmill Goal
Philosopher
 
Archie Gemmill Goal's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2015
Posts: 5,200
Originally Posted by Baylor View Post
When in fact I've addressed this several times. Guess I have to do it again. When a racial minority murders at a rate of 10 times the racial majority, the bar of self defense will be lower than what it is in a small lily white country like Scotland. This is just another not-so-subtle "look how great things are when it's only white people!" argument
Just out of interest the murder rate in lily white Renfrewshire and Inverclyde in 2018 was 4.3/100,000. I can't find data for the numbers killed by Renfrewshire police in the same year but I can hazard a guess.
__________________
"I love sex and drugs and sausage rolls
But nothing compares to Archie Gemmill's goal"
Archie Gemmill Goal is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th January 2019, 06:53 AM   #931
Nessie
Penultimate Amazing
 
Nessie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 11,387
Originally Posted by Baylor View Post
The way you endlessly rant about "US gun violence" means you are the most put-off by blacks.
Seeing gun violence as a problem, which negatively affects the black community more than the white, does not therefore mean I am "put-off by blacks". I see the black community primarily as victims of the problem. I see the police as one of the various causes of the problems.

Where I went, lived and worked in the USA, turns out I was at most risk from the white police officers.

Your inability to make a coherent claim, let alone argument is why you are the subject of ridicule.
__________________
Audiophile/biker/sceptic
Nessie is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th January 2019, 06:59 AM   #932
Nessie
Penultimate Amazing
 
Nessie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 11,387
Originally Posted by Baylor View Post
Again, why is "the bar of self defence" lower when a racial minority murders more than the racial majority?

Stop dodging my previous requests for you to provide links and quotes to the following claims you made;

"This thread is about overpolicing (mostly) blacks."

and

"Now you claim police are uninterested in policing blacks."
__________________
Audiophile/biker/sceptic
Nessie is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th January 2019, 03:28 PM   #933
novaphile
Quester of Doglets
Moderator
 
novaphile's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 1,259
Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
The police like to claim all the credit for the reduction in knife crime, due to a massive and legally dubious stop search campaign. I have my doubts, since violent crime had been falling anyway, so at best the police were pushing against an opening door.
One thing to check is if the violence decreased in response to lead pollution decreasing.
__________________
We would be better, and braver, to engage in enquiry, rather than indulge in the idle fancy, that we already know -- Plato.
novaphile is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th January 2019, 05:22 PM   #934
quadraginta
Becoming Beth
 
quadraginta's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Central Vale of Humility
Posts: 22,797
Originally Posted by novaphile View Post
One thing to check is if the violence decreased in response to lead pollution decreasing.

One problem with that is that, by coincidence, ones of the leading remaining causes of childhood exposure to lead is from old house paint, most often encountered by the poorest cohorts of the economic scale, who are inhabiting the very structures where remedial treatment has been most overlooked.

Leaving minorities at the top of that exposure list.
__________________
"It never does just what I want, but only what I tell it."
"A great deal of intelligence can be invested in ignorance when the need for illusion is deep."
"Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of them pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing had happened."

Last edited by quadraginta; 6th January 2019 at 05:30 PM.
quadraginta is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th January 2019, 05:36 PM   #935
Baylor
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Spokane, WA
Posts: 7,072
Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
Again, why is "the bar of self defence" lower when a racial minority murders more than the racial majority?

Stop dodging my previous requests for you to provide links and quotes to the following claims you made;
I'm not going to keep linking back to posts just because you claim to have missed them. It stalls and obfuscates the discussion and that has been the tactic for others as well. Please follow the thread of discussion and it is currently about your refusal to ever live in a black neighborhood.
Baylor is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th January 2019, 05:41 PM   #936
Matthew Best
Philosopher
 
Matthew Best's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Leicester Square, London
Posts: 6,380
Originally Posted by Baylor View Post
Please follow the thread of discussion and it is currently about your refusal to ever live in a black neighborhood.
The thread is about the behaviour of US police officers. It seems you need to start a new thread to discuss your peculiar obsessions.
Matthew Best is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th January 2019, 05:44 PM   #937
Baylor
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Spokane, WA
Posts: 7,072
It is not possible to discuss the police without discussing the population that is being policed. I have to keep repeating myself with you people.
Baylor is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th January 2019, 07:34 PM   #938
Matthew Best
Philosopher
 
Matthew Best's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Leicester Square, London
Posts: 6,380
You really don't.
Matthew Best is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 7th January 2019, 02:33 AM   #939
Archie Gemmill Goal
Philosopher
 
Archie Gemmill Goal's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2015
Posts: 5,200
Originally Posted by Baylor View Post
It is not possible to discuss the police without discussing the population that is being policed. I have to keep repeating myself with you people.
In a thread on police behaviour a poster considers police behaviour and attitudes that he himself introduced as oht of bounds and irrelevant but random statistics not related to police behaviour key. Says a lot.
__________________
"I love sex and drugs and sausage rolls
But nothing compares to Archie Gemmill's goal"
Archie Gemmill Goal is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 7th January 2019, 02:46 AM   #940
Nessie
Penultimate Amazing
 
Nessie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 11,387
Originally Posted by Baylor View Post
It's not applicable to use the 100,000 per resident murder rate for a small city. One murder can distort the rate significantly. One drunk white guy doesn't hit his old lady with a bowling ball and the murder rate regresses back to the mean. But on that token, the murder rate of East St Louis is 60/100,000.
With that comment, you have shown you do not understand what the rate per 100,000 means.
__________________
Audiophile/biker/sceptic
Nessie is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 7th January 2019, 02:51 AM   #941
Nessie
Penultimate Amazing
 
Nessie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 11,387
Originally Posted by Baylor View Post
I'm not going to keep linking back to posts just because you claim to have missed them. It stalls and obfuscates the discussion and that has been the tactic for others as well. Please follow the thread of discussion and it is currently about your refusal to ever live in a black neighborhood.
You lie about what I say, make up claims about me being racist and dodge my points and questions. You are trolling the thread to keep it off the topic of US police behaviour.

Again, why is "the bar of self defence" lower when a racial minority murders more than the racial majority?

Stop dodging my previous requests for you to provide links and quotes to the following claims you made;

"This thread is about overpolicing (mostly) blacks."

and

"Now you claim police are uninterested in policing blacks."
__________________
Audiophile/biker/sceptic
Nessie is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 7th January 2019, 03:14 AM   #942
Nessie
Penultimate Amazing
 
Nessie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 11,387
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/10/20/u...era-study.html

"After a series of high-profile police shootings, police departments across the nation turned to body cameras, hoping they would curb abuses. But a rigorous study released Friday shows that they have almost no effect on officer behavior.
The 18-month study of more than 2,000 police officers in Washington found that officers equipped with cameras used force and prompted civilian complaints at about the same rate as those who did not have them."

The behaviour of the police is ingrained and they feel safe behaving as they do.
__________________
Audiophile/biker/sceptic
Nessie is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 7th January 2019, 08:05 AM   #943
luchog
Neo-Post-Retro-Revivalist
 
luchog's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: The Emerald City
Posts: 15,041
Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
The behaviour of the police is ingrained and they feel safe behaving as they do.

That's because, in general, they are. Despite the increasing use of body cameras by police, there hasn't been a significant increase in the censure, discipline, or prosecution of police who use excessive or unnecessary force and abuse their authority. The institutions that protect law enforcement officers need to be broken and remade with better accountability structures before any real progress will be seen.
__________________
"All opinions are not equal. Some are a very great deal more robust, sophisticated and well supported in logic and argument than others." -- Douglas Adams
"The absence of evidence might indeed not be evidence of absence, but it's a pretty good start." -- PhantomWolf
"Let's see the buggers figure that one out." - John Lennon
luchog is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 7th January 2019, 06:08 PM   #944
Baylor
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Spokane, WA
Posts: 7,072
Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
"Now you claim police are uninterested in policing blacks."
Nice obfuscation tactic but I have no interest in playing this game. Anyone can go back and you did see that you said this
Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
If anything like that level of violence happens in Scotland, it is dealt with. That is something the USA is unable to or uninterested in doing.
Just like anyone can go back and see you said it's horrible to live in a society with black people.
Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
It must be horrible living in a society where literally one minor move can result in extreme force being used against you.
Baylor is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 8th January 2019, 12:55 AM   #945
Baylor
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Spokane, WA
Posts: 7,072
Originally Posted by jimbob View Post
I think that black Americans want police and the justice system to not discriminate against them and for the police to not disproportionately shoot black Americans.

Those are perfectly reasonable demands.
Yet in this very thread you posted this

Originally Posted by jimbob View Post
Interesting paper:
Quote:
4. Shot by Police: Race/Ethnicity Across Armed Status

It is worth noting, that on average across counties in the United States, an individual is as likely to be {black, unarmed, and shot by police} as {white, armed, and shot by police}, with a median relative risk estimate of 1.04 (PCI95: 0.62, 1.61). The corresponding ratio for hispanics is 0.52 (PCI95: 0.32, 0.75).

http://journals.plos.org/plosone/art...l.pone.0141854
Baylor is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 8th January 2019, 10:06 AM   #946
jimbob
Uncritical "thinker"
 
jimbob's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: UK
Posts: 19,761
Originally Posted by Baylor View Post
Originally Posted by jimbob View Post
I think that black Americans want police and the justice system to not discriminate against them and for the police to not disproportionately shoot black Americans.

Those are perfectly reasonable demands.
Yet in this very thread you posted this

Originally Posted by jimbob View Post
Interesting paper:
Quote:
4. Shot by Police: Race/Ethnicity Across Armed Status

It is worth noting, that on average across counties in the United States, an individual is as likely to be {black, unarmed, and shot by police} as {white, armed, and shot by police}, with a median relative risk estimate of 1.04 (PCI95: 0.62, 1.61). The corresponding ratio for hispanics is 0.52 (PCI95: 0.32, 0.75).

http://journals.plos.org/plosone/art...l.pone.0141854
And your point is?

Police shoot unarmed blacks at a similar rate to armed whites.

I am sure that there are lots of police shootings that are more or less justifiable, however it's telling that unarmed blacks are as likely to be shot as armed whites. If the shootings were based on an unemotional assessment of risk, one would have to assume that armed people are generally more dangerous than unarmed people, and would assume that shootings rates of unarmed blacks would be far lower than armed whites.
__________________
OECD healthcare spending
Expenditure on healthcare
http://www.oecd.org/els/health-systems/health-data.htm
link is 2015 data (2013 Data below):
UK 8.5% of GDP of which 83.3% is public expenditure - 7.1% of GDP is public spending
US 16.4% of GDP of which 48.2% is public expenditure - 7.9% of GDP is public spending
jimbob is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 8th January 2019, 10:57 AM   #947
pgwenthold
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Sep 2001
Posts: 17,635
Maybe if more cops are shooting cops, it will lead to a reassessment of methods....

https://fox59.com/2019/01/08/lafayet...d-in-shooting/

You think maybe the guy didn't sufficiently follow the verbal commands?
__________________
"As your friend, I have to be honest with you: I don't care about you or your problems" - Gidget, Secret Life of Pets
pgwenthold is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 8th January 2019, 11:07 AM   #948
GlennB
Loggerheaded, earth-vexing fustilarian
 
GlennB's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Arcadia, Greece
Posts: 23,914
Originally Posted by jimbob View Post
And your point is?

Police shoot unarmed blacks at a similar rate to armed whites.

I am sure that there are lots of police shootings that are more or less justifiable, however it's telling that unarmed blacks are as likely to be shot as armed whites. If the shootings were based on an unemotional assessment of risk, one would have to assume that armed people are generally more dangerous than unarmed people, and would assume that shootings rates of unarmed blacks would be far lower than armed whites.
That was my first thought too, but I reckon Baylor will try to characterise any response as a sign of a hidden racist agenda. Pure trolling, imo.
__________________
"Even a broken clock is right twice a day. 9/11 truth is a clock with no hands." - Beachnut
GlennB is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 8th January 2019, 02:01 PM   #949
Nessie
Penultimate Amazing
 
Nessie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 11,387
Originally Posted by Baylor View Post
Nice obfuscation tactic but I have no interest in playing this game. Anyone can go back and you did see that you said this

Just like anyone can go back and see you said it's horrible to live in a society with black people.
Which is not what I said, as anyone can see.
__________________
Audiophile/biker/sceptic
Nessie is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 8th January 2019, 02:12 PM   #950
fagin
Philosopher
 
fagin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: As far away from casebro as possible.
Posts: 6,978
It would appear that Baylor is learning the Trump method of ********. Just repeat lies that have nothing to do with the posts he's replying to.

Might as well argue with a headless chicken.
__________________
There is no secret ingredient - Kung Fu Panda
fagin is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 9th January 2019, 02:46 AM   #951
Nessie
Penultimate Amazing
 
Nessie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 11,387
A whole load of posts, where he tries to blame black people for the behaviour of the US police and calls others racists for blaming the police themselves for their own behaviour, have been removed from the thread.
__________________
Audiophile/biker/sceptic
Nessie is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Reply

International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Social Issues & Current Events

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 08:00 PM.
Powered by vBulletin. Copyright ©2000 - 2019, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.

This forum began as part of the James Randi Education Foundation (JREF). However, the forum now exists as
an independent entity with no affiliation with or endorsement by the JREF, including the section in reference to "JREF" topics.

Disclaimer: Messages posted in the Forum are solely the opinion of their authors.