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Old 4th January 2019, 12:45 PM   #81
bruto
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Originally Posted by baron View Post
Also, why would the family hire a lawyer before any allegations have even been made? Legally speaking it makes no sense, because no action can yet be taken. It's almost if they want to head off at the pass any investigation by the board and pressure them into relenting and awarding the marks. Now why would this be? If I had been told my work was under investigation for cheating the very first thing I'd want is for the investigation to go ahead, and fast.
The exact allegation has not been made, but something has been alleged for sure - that the results are at least suspicious. She's under investigation for cheating, not for using a dull pencil, and that has resulted in the withholding of results, which, we're told, is hurting her in the admissions process.

Of course, as often, how you see this depends a little on what presumptions you start with. A person who starts with a strong suspicion of cheating might well conclude that the premature hiring of a lawyer is suspicious, and that may well be the case. If you were a cheater, that's likely what you'd do. But a person who presumes that the student knows very well that she did not cheat, and suspects that she is being unfairly treated, to her detriment in getting into college, might well want to hire a lawyer fast too. We have to beware of conclusion in reverse. Saying if you were guilty you'd act in some way or another is not a strong argument for guilt.

Again it depends a little on how you see things at the start. One person might say hiring a lawyer slows down the investigation, and that may well be true if the investigation is in good faith, and if precedent suggests that they are reasonably efficient. But of course if you think otherwise, it's also possible to suggest that a slow investigation, like a nuisance lawsuit, can achieve negative results simply from happening at all, and that delay in pronouncing innocence is insufficient.

e.t.a. and of course we must also allow for the possibility that the student did not cheat, that the college board is acting properly and cautiously, and that the student and her parents are nonetheless acting badly.

Until we know a little more, we're guessing, and doing so at least in some degree on the basis of scanty information and presumption.

Your presumption may well be right, but it's a bit soon to say.
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Last edited by bruto; 4th January 2019 at 12:47 PM.
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Old 4th January 2019, 12:58 PM   #82
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Originally Posted by bruto View Post
The exact allegation has not been made, but something has been alleged for sure - that the results are at least suspicious. She's under investigation for cheating, not for using a dull pencil, and that has resulted in the withholding of results, which, we're told, is hurting her in the admissions process.
Indeed. I can't see an issue with that, as long as they conduct the investigation in a transparent and timely fashion.

Originally Posted by bruto View Post
Of course, as often, how you see this depends a little on what presumptions you start with. A person who starts with a strong suspicion of cheating might well conclude that the premature hiring of a lawyer is suspicious, and that may well be the case. If you were a cheater, that's likely what you'd do. But a person who presumes that the student knows very well that she did not cheat, and suspects that she is being unfairly treated, to her detriment in getting into college, might well want to hire a lawyer fast too. We have to beware of conclusion in reverse. Saying if you were guilty you'd act in some way or another is not a strong argument for guilt.
Hiring a lawyer is not necessarily a big thing. Hiring this lawyer is. Why on earth would they specifically hire the US's foremost black civil rights lawyer, who specialises in representing black people wronged by white people (almost always resulting in their death, it has to be said), because of an allegation of cheating in an exam? Why not hire a lawyer, black or white, who specialises in education or workplace issues?

Originally Posted by bruto View Post
Again it depends a little on how you see things at the start. One person might say hiring a lawyer slows down the investigation, and that may well be true if the investigation is in good faith, and if precedent suggests that they are reasonably efficient. But of course if you think otherwise, it's also possible to suggest that a slow investigation, like a nuisance lawsuit, can achieve negative results simply from happening at all, and that delay in pronouncing innocence is insufficient.

e.t.a. and of course we must also allow for the possibility that the student did not cheat, that the college board is acting properly and cautiously, and that the student and her parents are nonetheless acting badly.

Until we know a little more, we're guessing, and doing so at least in some degree on the basis of scanty information and presumption.

Your presumption may well be right, but it's a bit soon to say.
Well, I've not said she cheated, but it would surprise me if she had not. What I do know is that this Board will have to clench their arse cheeks if their investigation does reveal cheating, because with a lawyer of that stature behind the family they will likely face some serious backlash.
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Old 4th January 2019, 01:07 PM   #83
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Meh, seems to me if they had some pre-existing policy that said something like:
A. If a score improves by X% then we'll flag it and take a look
B. If we x% of the wrong answers of a person in a location match those at the same test location then we'll flag and take a look.

It sucks for her but I'm not sure what kind of legal case she'll have.

I tend to agree with JoeM, the real problem is the effective monopoly SAT has on college admissions exams.
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Old 4th January 2019, 01:09 PM   #84
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I remember issues being raised in the past about SAT questions relying on existing vocabulary, environment, or social class rather than actual aptitude. For example, completing an analogy when one of the words was sculling.


This also reminds me of the situation at the end of the movie "Stand and Deliver". A high school class with no mathematics background all learned AP Calculus the same way, and they were accused of cheating on the test because they all made the same mistakes.

Last edited by Armitage72; 4th January 2019 at 01:10 PM.
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Old 4th January 2019, 02:40 PM   #85
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Mastering a new body of knowledge is different from having an innate skill.
Well I wasn't born with a calculator in my head. Calculus is a new body of knowledge.
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Old 4th January 2019, 03:21 PM   #86
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Well I wasn't born with a calculator in my head. Calculus is a new body of knowledge.
And the facility with which you acquired and applied it is an aptitude.

Some things come easier to some people than to others. We have aptitude tests to try to gauge how easily a particular thing will come to you.

Earlier I gave the example of the Defense Language Aptitude Battery. Almost anyone can learn a foreign language, given enough time and effort and teacher support. But the military can't afford to just teach everyone foreign languages. So before they bother investing in your learning a foreign language, they test you to determine if you'll have enough facility with the process to make it worth the investment. If not, they find other work that's more in line with your aptitudes, that's worth training you to do.
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Old 4th January 2019, 05:00 PM   #87
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
The delay has negative consequences for her, she can't complete her college applications without the score and those applications have deadlines.
Yes, I said exactly the same thing in the post you quoted.
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Old 4th January 2019, 05:05 PM   #88
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Well I wasn't born with a calculator in my head.
You were born without a brain?
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Old 4th January 2019, 11:55 PM   #89
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
Unless you can show otherwise, the article (https://edition.cnn.com/2019/01/02/u...rsy/index.html) says no such thing.
From the article:

Quote:
A score is never flagged for review solely on score gains, said Zach Goldberg, a spokesman for The College Board, the company that conducts the SAT. Indeed, score gains are celebrated.
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Old 5th January 2019, 12:05 AM   #90
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Originally Posted by Armitage72 View Post
I remember issues being raised in the past about SAT questions relying on existing vocabulary, environment, or social class rather than actual aptitude. For example, completing an analogy when one of the words was sculling.


This also reminds me of the situation at the end of the movie "Stand and Deliver". A high school class with no mathematics background all learned AP Calculus the same way, and they were accused of cheating on the test because they all made the same mistakes.
And according to Wikipedia there is a simple explanation: they cheated on that question (poorly):

Quote:
Ten of the students signed waivers to allow the College Board to show their exam parts to Jay Mathews, the author of Escalante: The Best Teacher in America. Mathews found that nine of them had made "identical silly mistakes" on free response question 6. Mathews heard from two of the students that during the exam, a piece of paper had been passed around with that flawed solution
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Old 5th January 2019, 12:10 AM   #91
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Originally Posted by Elagabalus View Post
The article also states that they are currently reviewing the scores not that have refused to accept them as poster Brainster claims.
It is clear from the letter they sent that they are not ready to accept her score as valid currently.
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Old 5th January 2019, 12:40 AM   #92
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Why does it take them so long to review her results, surely it's something that could done literally in a few hours these days?
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Old 5th January 2019, 02:34 AM   #93
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Why does it take them so long to review her results, surely it's something that could done literally in a few hours these days?
I am guessing that "reviewing" is a euphemism for declining to certify.
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Old 5th January 2019, 04:24 AM   #94
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Why does it take them so long to review her results, surely it's something that could done literally in a few hours these days?
I'd guess they have found clear similarities between her paper and others and are looking into how that could come about, if how far beyond chance those similarities are.
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Old 9th January 2019, 06:50 AM   #95
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Originally Posted by applecorped View Post
You were born without a brain?
The brain's not a calculating machine, but an associative one.
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