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Old 10th January 2019, 04:16 AM   #41
cullennz
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Originally Posted by Checkmite View Post
This is something akin to pseudoscientific psychobabble. The fact that a person makes a choice about whether or not to give in to peer pressure doesn't change the fact that peer pressure is something that objectively exists. I'm not sure what the point or intent of "turning it back onto" the person experiencing the pressure is; it almost seems as if you're suggesting that avoiding scenarios where pressure exists is somehow less valid, or represents some kind of abdication of personal responsibility, compared to immersing oneself in the pressure situation and willing oneself to be blind to or unflappable under the pressure.

The analogy about there being no such thing as offense, only giving into "pressure to feel offended" also makes no sense whatsoever. It denies the factual reality that people have personal sensibilities, limits, and boundaries that can be crossed (which is what "offense" represents).
Do you mind clarifying this a bit because when it comes to addiction it most certainly is down to the addicted to make the choice. No matter what the surrounding pressures are.

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Old 10th January 2019, 07:12 AM   #42
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Originally Posted by Checkmite View Post
Then your advice to a recovering alcoholic that is trying to not drink anymore is to go ahead and drink?
Not everything is binary.
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Old 10th January 2019, 08:05 AM   #43
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Originally Posted by Checkmite View Post
Then your advice to a recovering alcoholic that is trying to not drink anymore is to go ahead and drink?
This isn't an either or thing. If said alcoholic wants to stop drinking entirely then that is their prerogative. However, there is a difference between drinking and being an alcoholic just like there is a difference between having sex and being a rapist. So an alcoholic doesn't have to stop drinking entirely to stop being an alcoholic any more than a rapist has to stop having sex entirely to stop being a rapist.
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Old 10th January 2019, 08:44 AM   #44
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Huh. I don't go into pubs often, but when I do I almost always have a diet coke (or pepsi, if I absolutely must). I'm not against alcohol, I just don't drink it much.

I've never once felt judged for it. Nobody has ever so much as mentioned that I'm not drinking booze, let alone mentioned it in a disparaging way. If they did my reaction would be along the lines of "why do you care what I drink?"
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Old 10th January 2019, 09:46 AM   #45
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Well, just maybe, different groups in different times and places vary greatly in the amount of direct and indirect pressure they apply toward demonstrating conviviality by participating in drinking.

And just maybe, different individuals very greatly in their susceptibility to that pressure and/or in the amount of stress it causes them to resist it.
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Old 10th January 2019, 10:04 AM   #46
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Originally Posted by Checkmite View Post
This is something akin to pseudoscientific psychobabble. The fact that a person makes a choice about whether or not to give in to peer pressure doesn't change the fact that peer pressure is something that objectively exists. I'm not sure what the point or intent of "turning it back onto" the person experiencing the pressure is; it almost seems as if you're suggesting that avoiding scenarios where pressure exists is somehow less valid, or represents some kind of abdication of personal responsibility, compared to immersing oneself in the pressure situation and willing oneself to be blind to or unflappable under the pressure.
Someone offering you a drink (or pot or whatever) is not pressuring you into anything. They are being polite. I've never had anyone pressure me, look down on me or whatever when I've turned down an offer.

I didn't drink, smoke, or anything in high school. Most of my friends did. If I went to a party, someone might offer to be inclusive but no one cared or treated me any differently when I declined. One thing to realize is that it's the OFFER that indicates inclusion, not the partaking.

In college I drank, but didn't do pot or anything like that. I played in a couple pick-up bands with guys who smoked a lot. One time I was at a party in a dorm room and someone offered, so I decided to try it. Instead of pressure to do it, I got the reverse. "Are you sure man? That's not really your thing." In my experience friends don't pressure you into doing things they know you don't want to do.

I've also always been pretty introverted and awkward socially, so I understand the feeling of pressure to do things to be part of the crowd. But I realized long ago that the pressure I was feeling originated internally, not from the people around me. Networking is difficult if you aren't the type to be able to make small talk with people you don't know. Alcohol is not some magic ticket that allows entry into the conversation. No one cares if or what you drink (unless the conversation is about local beer, wine, etc.). You have to be either aggressive enough to insert yourself into the conversation or wait for an opening (often provided by someone you already know).

If you want to be part of the group, you do need to somehow fit yourself into what defines the group. But if you really look, it's pretty rare that what defines the group is their drinks. They aren't standing around talking about beer, unless they are beer snobs talking microbrews. People aren't excluded from the conversation because they aren't drinking. They are excluded because they are trying to talk about science when the conversation is about baseball. When scientists are socializing they tend to talk about the same things non-scientists do: family, travel, sports, cars, etc.
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Old 10th January 2019, 10:59 AM   #47
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Originally Posted by TomB View Post
Networking is difficult if you aren't the type to be able to make small talk with people you don't know.
This is often how I feel on the subject:
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Old 10th January 2019, 11:20 AM   #48
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Originally Posted by TomB View Post
Networking is difficult if you aren't the type to be able to make small talk with people you don't know.
Parallel parking is difficult but if you've been driving for awhile and you still can't do it the problem is you. I think it's the same when people have these types of issues, yes, it's difficult and so is playing the guitar. If you want to get better you have to practice.
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Old 10th January 2019, 02:05 PM   #49
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Originally Posted by qayak View Post
Parallel parking is difficult but if you've been driving for awhile and you still can't do it the problem is you. I think it's the same when people have these types of issues, yes, it's difficult and so is playing the guitar. If you want to get better you have to practice.

You can practice parallel parking or guitar playing by yourself.

Imagine if practicing parallel parking caused electric shocks each time you cut over too far or have to back up an extra time.

Imagine if practicing the guitar required your boss and co-workers to be watching and mocking every mistake.

Would you still recommend "get more practice" as the ideal solution?

Many people delight in belittling and otherwise punishing people in whom they detect any trace of "these types of issues." If while practicing you get the very thing you're practicing wrong, you could be treated as a misogynist stalker who deserves public exposure to humiliation and hatred. But never mind, get out there and practice! Have fun! It's just like playing a guitar!
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Old 10th January 2019, 02:19 PM   #50
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Originally Posted by qayak View Post
This isn't an either or thing. If said alcoholic wants to stop drinking entirely then that is their prerogative. However, there is a difference between drinking and being an alcoholic just like there is a difference between having sex and being a rapist. So an alcoholic doesn't have to stop drinking entirely to stop being an alcoholic any more than a rapist has to stop having sex entirely to stop being a rapist.
That analogy doesn't make sense either. Alcoholism is the state of dependency on alcohol leading to excess consumption - simplified: "drinking too much". Rape is not "having too much sex"; it has nothing whatsoever to do with how often the rapist has sex. You can have sex as much sex as you want and never risk being a rapist for doing so. You do, however, have to stop forcing or pressuring partners into non-consensual sex entirely in order to stop being a rapist.

Overcoming chemical and psychological dependency is tough; and abstaining altogether is widely regarded as an ideal approach, no matter what the addictive substance is. Alcoholics, by definition, are habitually unable to control how much they drink once they start, for whatever reason; conversely, it is impossible to consume too much alcohol when one does not consume any at all. This fact isn't a "myth" promulgated by this or that alcohol-recovery treatment, but rather is simple logic, and applies to addictive substances generally.

But this is a semantic digression. One doesn't have to believe that abstaining from alcohol, and entirely avoiding the temptation to consume it, is the be-all end-all of addiction recovery in order to recognize that abstention is nevertheless an immensely popular recovery approach, which puts us back at square one: when people can't or won't drink, how best to provide opportunities for networking and interaction in contexts where it seems (at the current point at least) alcohol consumption seems to anchor or drive most of that action?
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Old 10th January 2019, 02:24 PM   #51
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Originally Posted by qayak View Post
Reading the article makes it clear we are talking about herd mentality which is what I was leading into with my last response. The pressure to drink comes from one's own desire to be a part of the herd not because someone is twisting your arm. It is a strong human urge but the urge isn't to drink, the urge is to belong.

No, the pressure to drink comes from the herd ostracizing anyone who isn't conforming to herd behaviour.

Nearly every place I've worked for in the last 20 years have had events, including in-office events, which involved alcohol. Often company meetings are held in bars or similar locations where alcohol is the primary purpose.

My experiences have been that if you show up and don't drink, you'll occasionally get some individuals questioning your choice, but no substantial pressure.

However, for most alcoholics and other recovering addicts, simply going and not drinking isn't really a viable option. And employers are not always willing to deal with that fact, treating such employees badly as a result. Sometimes these events are mandatory, and not showing up is not a good option. Sometimes they're ostensibly optional, but not showing up flags you as an outsider, as "not a team player", and "not contributing to company culture"; and it often has significant negative repercussions in the long term.
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Old 10th January 2019, 03:06 PM   #52
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Originally Posted by Checkmite View Post

Now the TAMs are long gone of course; I'm not even sure there are "skeptical" conferences of any kind going on these days.
QEDCon in the UK is still going strong (though taking a year off in 2019). The hotel bar is the default hangout place, but I've felt no pressure to drink alcohol; soft drinks, including tea and coffee, are available. There's also the European Skeptics Congress, but I've not been to one so can't comment on that regarding socials.
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Old 10th January 2019, 03:15 PM   #53
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Conversely, I often find the pressure to not drink during on-the-clock work activities a little bit difficult to overcome. Fortunately, my will is strong.
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Old 10th January 2019, 03:29 PM   #54
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When I worked in the city there were regular annual events wherein our business 'partners' (lawyers, examiners and HMRC) were invited to a themed party (for example, the 'Clink' or London Zoo). Our bosses expected us to network and act as hosts. I hated this. I'd have a couple of canapés, make sure I was somewhere near the exit, and then when no-one was looking, I'd sneak out.

My accountancy tutition college has an annual event for ex-students. I went along once, and the head of the college was serving a poor man's Bellini (cheap Prosecco mixed with Creme de Cassis). After about two glasses I was feeling very very drunk. I put down my glass on a low table. Somehow the table got knocked and a whole load of glasses crashed and splintered over the floor. All eyes in the room turned to stare at me.

I never attended another one.
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Old 10th January 2019, 03:55 PM   #55
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I suspect that the real problem is that drinkers can be a crushing bore once they get a big heat on. I'd suggest coming up with an alternative that may attract some non-drinkers--maybe a poker tournament or a trivia contest or a game. Provide a small prize--maybe a $50 Amazon card or a pair of bluetooth headphones. Be sure to specify it is BYOB; that should cut down on the folks who are only interested in getting smashed cheap.
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Old 10th January 2019, 04:31 PM   #56
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Originally Posted by qayak View Post
I think you have that wrong. It's AA ( other alcoholics) that says "Well, just don't drink." As a non-alcoholic, and knowing AA's success rates, I would never say that.
No. AA says "you are powerless to change without the help of a Higher Power".

Originally Posted by qayak View Post
This isn't an either or thing. If said alcoholic wants to stop drinking entirely then that is their prerogative. However, there is a difference between drinking and being an alcoholic just like there is a difference between having sex and being a rapist. So an alcoholic doesn't have to stop drinking entirely to stop being an alcoholic any more than a rapist has to stop having sex entirely to stop being a rapist.
You don't just stop being an alcoholic. No-one stops being an alcoholic. An alcoholic can stop engaging in problematic drinking behaviours, sometimes, but they're still an alcoholic. Alcoholics relapse all the time. I know - I've done it many times.
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Old 10th January 2019, 04:36 PM   #57
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A glass of tonic water garnished with lime is an effective disguise, while the other participants are sober enough to notice. After a few, they won't notice, even if you're doing shooters of tap water to their vodka. Too bad I didn't figure that idea out until I'd already hit waaaay too drunk, but it saved me from a worse fate.
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Old 10th January 2019, 05:02 PM   #58
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Originally Posted by deadrose View Post
A glass of tonic water garnished with lime is an effective disguise, while the other participants are sober enough to notice. After a few, they won't notice, even if you're doing shooters of tap water to their vodka. Too bad I didn't figure that idea out until I'd already hit waaaay too drunk, but it saved me from a worse fate.
Non-sparkling apple juice is a good substitute for white wine. And there are some almost-decent nonalcoholic beers for those less formal situations.
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Old 10th January 2019, 05:42 PM   #59
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
No. AA says "you are powerless to change without the help of a Higher Power".

You don't just stop being an alcoholic. No-one stops being an alcoholic. An alcoholic can stop engaging in problematic drinking behaviours, sometimes, but they're still an alcoholic. Alcoholics relapse all the time. I know - I've done it many times.
I think there are two types of alcoholism: those who drink to drown their sorrows (self-medication against depression) and those with a genetic tendency. The latter are the true alcoholics insofar as alcoholism being defined as an 'illness'.

If you know you are genetically predisposed, then you should never drink at all. If depressed, have a ready excuse to decline a drink. For example, if you really don't like the look of food someone is offering you, you can be ready with, 'Sorry, I'm on a diet'.

With drink, just say, 'Sorry, I'm on the wagon'.

The readiness is all.
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Old 10th January 2019, 05:45 PM   #60
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
You don't just stop being an alcoholic. No-one stops being an alcoholic. An alcoholic can stop engaging in problematic drinking behaviours, sometimes, but they're still an alcoholic. Alcoholics relapse all the time. I know - I've done it many times.

As further research is done, there is clear evidence that there is a genetic predisposition to alcoholism, and the inability to control drinking appears to be due to an dysfunction in a particular enzyme, Catalase.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3334563/
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Old 10th January 2019, 05:52 PM   #61
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
I think there are two types of alcoholism: those who drink to drown their sorrows (self-medication against depression) and those with a genetic tendency. The latter are the true alcoholics insofar as alcoholism being defined as an 'illness'.
The former aren't alcoholics at all. And while genetics is involved, it appears to be only half of the problem.

Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
If you know you are genetically predisposed, then you should never drink at all. If depressed, have a ready excuse to decline a drink. For example, if you really don't like the look of food someone is offering you, you can be ready with, 'Sorry, I'm on a diet'.

With drink, just say, 'Sorry, I'm on the wagon'.

The readiness is all.
I admire the people who have the strength to do that.
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Old 10th January 2019, 07:19 PM   #62
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Originally Posted by Checkmite View Post
And as a teetotaler, I found myself largely locked out of the social scene when I attended TAM4.

Alcohol didn't stop me from attending the social scene when I attended TAM2 (or was it TAM3?), but jet lag did.
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Old 10th January 2019, 07:39 PM   #63
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
No. AA says "you are powerless to change without the help of a Higher Power".

You don't just stop being an alcoholic. No-one stops being an alcoholic. An alcoholic can stop engaging in problematic drinking behaviours, sometimes, but they're still an alcoholic. Alcoholics relapse all the time. I know - I've done it many times.
AA says a lot of things, one of which is that alcoholics cannot drink at all or they will relapse. They claim even the alcohol in a dessert will cause an alcoholic to go on a binge. Studies however show none of that is true. They also show that alcoholics drink to achieve a particular level of drunkenness that they can describe before they start drinking. They are actually controlled drinkers.

Alcoholics who are unaware they are drinking alcohol do not develop an uncontrollable urge to drink more. Alcoholics drink the most when they think they are drinking alcoholic drinks whether there is, or is not, alcohol in the drinks.

Quote:
What does this research prove? Alcoholism is the term we use to describe people who get drunk more than other people and who often suffer problems due to their drinking. Alcoholism exists—overdrinking, compulsive drinking, drinking beyond a point where the person knows he or she will regret it—all these occur. (In fact, these things happen to quite a high percentage of all drinkers during their lives.) But this drinking is not due to some special, uncontrollable biological drive. Alcoholics are no different from other human beings in exercising choices, in seeking the feelings that they believe alcohol provides, and in evaluating the mood changes they experience in terms of their alternatives. No evidence disputes the view that alcoholics continue to respond to their environments and to express personal values even while they are drinking.
Studies have also shown that the genetic link to alcoholism is not true. They show that even for those who geneticists feel might have a genetic link to alcoholism, culture and environment are the major determinants.

AA claims that drinking problems only get worse but that isn't true. Heavy binge drinkers in their early twenties rarely carry it over into middle age. Studies also show that natural remission, even without outside intervention is by far the norm.

The most important thing for recovery though is that studies show alcoholism is not a primary disease. People get over bad drinking habits when changes happen in other areas of their lives.

Quote:
The most important single prognostic variable associated with remission among alcoholics who attend alcohol clinics is having something to lose if they continue to abuse alcohol.... Patients cited changed life circumstances rather than clinic intervention as most important to their abstinence.... Improved working and housing conditions made a difference in 40 percent of good outcomes, intrapsychic change in 32 percent, improved marriage in 32 percent, and a single 3-hour session of advice and education about drinking... in 35 percent.
Alcoholics are better served to spend their time fixing problem areas of their lives in order to curb their drinking habits.
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Old 10th January 2019, 07:49 PM   #64
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Originally Posted by qayak View Post
Studies have also shown that the genetic link to alcoholism is not true.
Luchog has just linked an NIH paper citing two studies supporting a genetic link.
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Old 10th January 2019, 07:58 PM   #65
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Uncited quotes.
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Old 10th January 2019, 08:02 PM   #66
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I'd also like to emphasise here that when I post in this thread, I am reporting my own personal experience with alcoholism, not reporting scientific conclusions. Different people react to alcohol in different ways.
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Old 10th January 2019, 08:04 PM   #67
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Remember what Gandhi said:

"I'd rather be sloppy drunk, than anything I know."

No, wait, it was...

"Be the change you want to see in the world."

In other words, it is probably pretty pointless to simply demand that everyone stop doing the only thing they can imagine doing at conferences, such as getting pished.

Instead, it might be worthwhile organizing and/or advertising alternatives or proposing alternatives to organizers of conferences that you think other people would like to be involved with.

At the same time, I also think that some social change regarding drinking is bound to be not far off. It wasn't that long ago that not only would people congregate in bars, but the bars would be full of smoke. Now, that is pretty much a thing of the past (except here in Japan where most pubs and restaurants still permit smoking). And a few years before that, people probably smoked in the actual conference, and speakers on stage puffed away on a fag.

Besides, as mentioned, I doubt there's any need to worry about serious pressure to drink if you either:

a) as mentioned, drink something that could plausibly be alcohol.

OR

b) tell anyone who asks you why you aren't drinking that you are an alcoholic. They will likely feel guilty and it is unlikely they will say, "Come on, just one pint won't hurt!"
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Old 10th January 2019, 08:06 PM   #68
arthwollipot
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Originally Posted by angrysoba View Post
b) tell anyone who asks you why you aren't drinking that you are an alcoholic. They will likely feel guilty and it is unlikely they will say, "Come on, just one pint won't hurt!"
There are many, many pubs in Australia where that will be the exact response. And then they'll say "Come on mate, another pint won't hurt!" And then another. A certain segment of the Australian population will revel in dragging an alcoholic off the wagon.
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Old 10th January 2019, 08:32 PM   #69
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Originally Posted by Checkmite View Post
Luchog has just linked an NIH paper citing two studies supporting a genetic link.
Yes, there is a huge problem with those studies as researchers have pointed out. The people who have the highest acetaldehyde levels when they drink, Native Americans, the Inuit, and Asians, not only have the highest rate of alcoholism (Native Americans and Inuit), they have the lowest (Chinese and Japanese).

So those groups have the genetics in common but not the alcoholic outcomes. It is far more likely that alcoholism rates are so high for Native Americans and Inuit because of their isolation and socio-economic standing.

There are also issues with the twin studies. They do not show a genetic connection. They show male children of alcoholics are more likely to become alcoholics but not female offspring. Female alcoholics mostly come from non-alcoholic parents. Also, studies between maternal and fraternal twins show no difference in rates which they should if the link is genetic. Geneticists studying these have stated the most likely cause for the higher rate in males of alcoholic parents is learned behaviour and bad parenting examples.

Quote:
"The demonstration of the critical importance of sociocultural influences in most alcoholics suggests that major changes in social attitudes about drinking styles can change dramatically the prevalence of alcohol abuse regardless of genetic predisposition."
Robert Cloninger

Quote:
"I think it [finding a biological marker for alcoholism] would be as unlikely as finding one for basketball playing. . . . [The high number of children of alcoholics who become addicted] is due less to biological factors than to poor role models"
George Vaillant
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Old 10th January 2019, 08:35 PM   #70
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As I have pointed out, genetics is only half the story. The other half is environmental, or so I've read.
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Old 10th January 2019, 09:28 PM   #71
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Originally Posted by angrysoba View Post
At the same time, I also think that some social change regarding drinking is bound to be not far off.
Agreed. Liability issues alone are making many companies scale back a bit on providing alcohol to employees.

Quote:
It wasn't that long ago that not only would people congregate in bars, but the bars would be full of smoke. Now, that is pretty much a thing of the past (except here in Japan where most pubs and restaurants still permit smoking). And a few years before that, people probably smoked in the actual conference, and speakers on stage puffed away on a fag.
My law school had ashtrays built into the desks. I can't imagine how much i would have smoked in law school if it were allowed in class when I went through.
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Old 10th January 2019, 10:07 PM   #72
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Originally Posted by Dr. Keith View Post
...

My law school had ashtrays built into the desks. I can't imagine how much i would have smoked in law school if it were allowed in class when I went through.
When I started working for the Navy, there was an ashtray on every desk, and they were all in use. Pretty much every manager had bottles of spirits in their desk drawers.

Fairly soon after I started, the establishment went "dry"* and smoking in offices was outlawed. Those two things probably both helped me a lot.

* There was some kind of study which revealed how much alcoholism was present in the (now) civilian managers, and the Navy cracked down.
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Old 10th January 2019, 11:55 PM   #73
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
As I have pointed out, genetics is only half the story. The other half is environmental, or so I've read.
So you've had genetic testing done and were diagnosed with a issue that causes you to be an alcoholic?
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Old 11th January 2019, 12:48 AM   #74
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Originally Posted by qayak View Post
They also show that alcoholics drink to achieve a particular level of drunkenness that they can describe before they start drinking. They are actually controlled drinkers.
Source/link?
This does not describe hardly any problem-drinkers I've ever known. The closest I can think of are people who had a really high tolerance from drinking nightly and were able to, with effort, drink until they felt sleepy without getting falling down drunk some of the time.

Quote:
Alcoholics who are unaware they are drinking alcohol do not develop an uncontrollable urge to drink more
Again, link? Was that testing the equivalent of 5 or 6 standard drink units? It's usually at "significantly, noticeably buzzed" that the compulsion to drink more kicks in.


Quote:
Alcoholics drink the most when they think they are drinking alcoholic drinks whether there is, or is not, alcohol in the drinks.
Well, duh.


Quote:
AA claims that drinking problems only get worse but that isn't true. Heavy binge drinkers in their early twenties rarely carry it over into middle age. Studies also show that natural remission, even without outside intervention is by far the norm.
That is true, even among people who develop "severe" addiction - physical dependence. Most people just naturally age out of it without any sort of formal treatment.


Quote:
Alcoholics are better served to spend their time fixing problem areas of their lives in order to curb their drinking habits.
For a whole lot of people, the former isn't really possible without doing rather a lot about the latter, first. Over-consumption of alcohol physically causes anxiety disorders and depression, too, which generally "heal" with abstinence.

Originally Posted by qayak View Post
There are also issues with the twin studies. They do not show a genetic connection.
Yes, they do.
https://ajp.psychiatryonline.org/doi...6/ajp.156.1.34
Quote:
CONCLUSIONS: In this first population-based study of male twins from the United States, it was found that genetic factors played a major role in the development of alcoholism among males, with similar influence for alcohol abuse and alcohol dependence. Prior findings implicating the influence of common environment may be attributable to sampling strategy; in this population-based sample, environmental factors shared by family members appear to have had little influence on the development of alcoholism in males.
https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/...3.2008.02213.x
Quote:
In this exciting era of gene discovery, we review evidence from family, adoption and twin studies that examine the genetic basis for addiction. With a focus on the classical twin design that utilizes data on monozygotic and dizygotic twins, we discuss support in favor of heritable influences on alcohol, nicotine, cannabis and other illicit drug dependence.
Quote:
Results  Converging evidence from these studies supports the role of moderate to high genetic influences on addiction with estimates ranging from 0.30 to 0.70.
Twin studies in women:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1404711
Quote:
RESULTS:
Using narrow, intermediate, or broad definitions, the probandwise concordance for alcoholism was consistently higher in monozygotic than in dizygotic twin pairs. Multifactorial threshold models suggested that the heritability of liability to alcoholism in women is in the range of 50% to 60%.
Males again:
https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jam...bstract/490841
Quote:
Drinking practices and problems, plus a wide range of other life experiences, were studied in a group of 55 men who had been separated from their biological parents early in life where one parent had a hospital diagnosis of alcoholism. Compared to a matched control group of adoptees, significantly more of them had a history of drinking problems and psychiatric treatment. The two groups did not differ with regard to other forms of psychopathology, such as depression or character disorders.
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Old 11th January 2019, 12:51 AM   #75
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Originally Posted by qayak View Post
So you've had genetic testing done and were diagnosed with a issue that causes you to be an alcoholic?
Of course he hasn't. No such test is on the market or in regular use.

He said he's read about it.
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Old 11th January 2019, 02:46 AM   #76
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Originally Posted by angrysoba View Post
At the same time, I also think that some social change regarding drinking is bound to be not far off. It wasn't that long ago that not only would people congregate in bars, but the bars would be full of smoke. Now, that is pretty much a thing of the past (except here in Japan where most pubs and restaurants still permit smoking). And a few years before that, people probably smoked in the actual conference, and speakers on stage puffed away on a fag.
It's already happening, has been for some time, though a bit less noticeable than the change in smoking (I can recall when smoking at your desk in an open plan office was the norm, and people would even light up in someone else's home without asking permission first).

When I started work, it was normal to go to the pub on a Friday lunchtime, and then go back to the office; some people went more often than that. A couple of places I worked at even had bars on site which were open at lunchtime. Driving after a few drinks was seen as a risk only in terms of possibly getting caught, not because it was dangerous to others. Those attitudes have changed, and I think they are continuing to do so.
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Old 11th January 2019, 08:59 AM   #77
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Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
Source/link?
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3969751/

https://lifeprocessprogram.com/the-i...er-addictions/

https://rehabreviews.com/brain-exper...disease-model/
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Old 11th January 2019, 10:13 AM   #78
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Originally Posted by qayak View Post
Originally Posted by TomB View Post
Networking is difficult if you aren't the type to be able to make small talk with people you don't know.
Parallel parking is difficult but if you've been driving for awhile and you still can't do it the problem is you. I think it's the same when people have these types of issues, yes, it's difficult and so is playing the guitar. If you want to get better you have to practice.

This is the same sort of thinking that leads people to believe that someone who suffers from clinical depression can "just snap out of it" if they really try, and they're just using depression as an excuse.

Sure, practice may help some shy people function somewhat better in social situations, but that will only help people whose issue actually is a lack of practice.

This is not true of everyone. One size does not fit all. Or one solution.

Judy Garland, whose full-time professional stage career began when she was two years old, still suffered from debilitating stage fright even at the end of her life.

It's not like she didn't have plenty of practice.

She forced herself to go onstage, but she often became physically ill to the point of throwing up right before she went out to perform.

She also died at the age of forty seven.
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Old 11th January 2019, 10:22 AM   #79
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Originally Posted by qayak View Post
I'm not seeing any of those demonstrating that "They [studies] also show that alcoholics drink to achieve a particular level of drunkenness that they can describe before they start drinking. They are actually controlled drinkers."

Can you quote what you see as the relevant parts?
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Old 11th January 2019, 01:54 PM   #80
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Originally Posted by quadraginta View Post
This is the same sort of thinking that leads people to believe that someone who suffers from clinical depression can "just snap out of it" if they really try, and they're just using depression as an excuse.
Same thing with the lasting psychological effects of abuse, which others insist the victim should just "get over".
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