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Old 9th January 2019, 11:39 AM   #41
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Originally Posted by fromdownunder View Post
Yes, this. Surely a double blind test could be used and negative results simply tossed out without the testers even knowing to whom they were related.


Norm
All we need for that to work is faith in the competence and honesty of law enforcement.
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Old 9th January 2019, 12:11 PM   #42
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Wanted to know more about PVS. Read this:
Quote:
Of the 40 patients referred as being in the vegetative state, 17 (43%) were considered as having been misdiagnosed; seven of these had been presumed to be vegetative for longer than one year, including three for over four years. Most of the misdiagnosed patients were blind or severely visually impaired. All patients remained severely physically disabled, but nearly all were able to communicate their preference in quality of life issues–some to a high level.
http://www.internationalskeptics.com...e=1&p=12557975

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Old 9th January 2019, 12:27 PM   #43
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Originally Posted by fromdownunder View Post
Yes, this. Surely a double blind test could be used and negative results simply tossed out without the testers even knowing to whom they were related.

I would think that for a wide ranging net as they've just thrown they could do a first round anonymously.
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Old 9th January 2019, 12:47 PM   #44
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To resurrect that dumb political statement regarding "legitimate rapes" I guess this means she wasn't actually raped and that unconscious sex is not rape, since they "have a way of shutting that whole thing down" (probably paraphrasing, don't care enough).

More seriously, I wonder how negligent one has to be to allow this to happen, and what the fallout will be. Poor kid
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Old 9th January 2019, 01:02 PM   #45
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Originally Posted by angrysoba View Post
I would say no from a moral point of view. Legally, as you say, the jurisdiction may determine otherwise.

Sure, but I think it is worth us considering that we should put the moral status of those in a PVS on a similar level to early fetuses.
I'm not sure what you want to argue here. It's a euthanasia debate, have at it, I'm not interested.

I am posting in this thread to pass on some factual information I have first hand experience with.
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Old 9th January 2019, 01:05 PM   #46
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Originally Posted by Ian Osborne View Post
Surely the kid will be adopted out, and never told about what happened? I presume that's what happened with the babies Ian Watkins tried to rape here in the UK.
You all are acting like this woman has no family. They would be relatives of the child and may have some opinions.
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Old 9th January 2019, 01:52 PM   #47
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Originally Posted by GnaGnaMan View Post
Wanted to know more about PVS. Read this:

http://www.internationalskeptics.com...e=1&p=12557975

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I don't think that's the link you wanted. Could you post a corrected link because I'm interested in reading your source.
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Old 9th January 2019, 02:12 PM   #48
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Originally Posted by Crawtator View Post
I don't think that's the link you wanted. Could you post a corrected link because I'm interested in reading your source.
Ooops:

https://www.bmj.com/content/313/7048/13.full
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Old 9th January 2019, 02:26 PM   #49
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Originally Posted by GnaGnaMan View Post
Thanks. Fascinating read. Truly horrifying.
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Old 9th January 2019, 02:35 PM   #50
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I wouldn't generalize about patients in PVS from that one article that looked at 40 patients over time in one facility.
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Old 9th January 2019, 02:39 PM   #51
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
I wouldn't generalize about patients in PVS from that one article that looked at 40 patients over time in one facility.
And who has done this?
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Old 9th January 2019, 05:43 PM   #52
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
I'm not sure what you want to argue here. It's a euthanasia debate, have at it, I'm not interested.

I am posting in this thread to pass on some factual information I have first hand experience with.
Huh? My posts are in relation to your answers to these posts. I assumed you were addressing the points made there:

Originally Posted by RolandRat View Post
This is going to sound extremely callous, 10 years in a vegetive state, what are the odds she is actually going to come around? Who is paying for her care and why is she in this state? If someone has been in a state like this for long, isn't it more merciful to pull the plug?

This is obviously a separate issue to the rape. I hope they find whomever did it and castrate him.
Originally Posted by Puppycow View Post
I don't know if this is off-topic, but why keep a body in a "vegetative state" alive for over 10 years?
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Old 9th January 2019, 05:44 PM   #53
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
Well you either murder the person or wait for them to die peacefully.

Not everyone in a coma is on a ventilator, there may be no plug to pull except the feeding tube you put food and water in.

They might be doing a few unnecessary things like antibiotics and annual flu shots.

Obesity would be unusual but staff might not be skilled and even some thin people have small babies.

After 10 years. I'd say she is as peaceful as she is going to get. You seem to have medical experience, what are the odds she is likely to regain functionality?
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Old 9th January 2019, 05:59 PM   #54
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"Your honor it's really the fault of the people who were keeping her alive. If they had just let her died I would have had to dig her up to rape her, and who's got time for that?"

Well I suppose it's better then "Well he honestly believed she was conscious and consenting so according to mens rea it's all good" or "He had been awake for a mind boggling 14 hours and went into the wrong room thinking it was his wife's."
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Old 9th January 2019, 06:02 PM   #55
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Originally Posted by Crawtator View Post
And who has done this?
GnaGna who said this:
Quote:
Wanted to know more about PVS. Read this
"Want to know more" certainly suggests the study has broad implications.

People tend to see PVS as a black and white issue. It isn't.
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Old 9th January 2019, 06:08 PM   #56
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Originally Posted by angrysoba View Post
Huh? My posts are in relation to your answers to these posts. I assumed you were addressing the points made there:
Both of those posts lacked some general knowledge about "pulling the plug" that I elaborated on. They are not likely on ventilators if they've been alive 10 years. As for plugs, there is a feeding tube one could pull, a different thing since one doesn't die for days, weeks.

Why does that mean I need to get into a discussion on euthanasia?
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Old 9th January 2019, 06:10 PM   #57
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Originally Posted by RolandRat View Post
After 10 years. I'd say she is as peaceful as she is going to get. You seem to have medical experience, what are the odds she is likely to regain functionality?
There have been a couple of rare cases.

But you seem to be missing the point, not everyone wants to take the step of euthanasia, and families differ how they view these patients.
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Old 9th January 2019, 06:21 PM   #58
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Originally Posted by angrysoba View Post
I think that's basically true. It looks like acts of necrophilia are not considered to be rape, but this is practically that.

It's interesting that even though the harm is likely to be lower for these acts, our disgust tends to be higher.

That said, I wonder what the psychological harm will be for the kid growing up learning how mum and dad met.

Grandpa, tell me how Mom and Dad met?

Well, Son, your Ma was in a vegetative state -

What's a vegetative state, Grandpa?

Well, Son, it's like that thar cauliflour sitting in the vegetable plot, or that lettuce over there.

Was my Mom a pumpkin, Grandpa?

Kind of that way, Son.

And what about Dad...?

Well, Son, you see that cucumber over there...?

I'll get my coat.
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Old 9th January 2019, 06:24 PM   #59
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
"Your honor it's really the fault of the people who were keeping her alive. If they had just let her died I would have had to dig her up to rape her, and who's got time for that?"

Well I suppose it's better then "Well he honestly believed she was conscious and consenting so according to mens rea it's all good" or "He had been awake for a mind boggling 14 hours and went into the wrong room thinking it was his wife's."
Is anyone making these arguments?
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"Evolution and Ethics" T.H. Huxley (1893)
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Old 9th January 2019, 06:27 PM   #60
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
Both of those posts lacked some general knowledge about "pulling the plug" that I elaborated on. They are not likely on ventilators if they've been alive 10 years. As for plugs, there is a feeding tube one could pull, a different thing since one doesn't die for days, weeks.

Why does that mean I need to get into a discussion on euthanasia?
Sure, but from my understanding, the Terri Schiavo case and the Tony Bland cases both involved the taking away of the feeding tube. I already know that it takes a few days to die that way. But you also used the term “murder” and the legal status of withdrawing life-support (which does include feeding tubes). So you were talking about the moral dimension of euthanasia before I replied to you.
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"Evolution and Ethics" T.H. Huxley (1893)
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Old 9th January 2019, 08:48 PM   #61
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
"Your honor it's really the fault of the people who were keeping her alive. If they had just let her died I would have had to dig her up to rape her, and who's got time for that?"

Well I suppose it's better then "Well he honestly believed she was conscious and consenting so according to mens rea it's all good" or "He had been awake for a mind boggling 14 hours and went into the wrong room thinking it was his wife's."

Are you for real? What prompted that load of garbage?

Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
There have been a couple of rare cases.

But you seem to be missing the point, not everyone wants to take the step of euthanasia, and families differ how they view these patients.
I don't think I'm missing the point at all. You said yourself it's rare for people in this condition to become functional again. Is her family paying for her to be kept in a vegetive state? Does her family even care? If there is no family, why is she being kept in this state? These are genuine questions, I haven't looked into this situation.

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Old 9th January 2019, 11:55 PM   #62
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Grandpa, tell me how Mom and Dad met?

Well, Son, your Ma was in a vegetative state -

What's a vegetative state, Grandpa?

Well, Son, it's like that thar cauliflour sitting in the vegetable plot, or that lettuce over there.

Was my Mom a pumpkin, Grandpa?

Kind of that way, Son.

And what about Dad...?

Well, Son, you see that cucumber over there...?

I'll get my coat.
I actually laughed out load over your post. Great bit but I would offer up the suggestion that you work in grandpa saying "The important thing is that they met."
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Old 10th January 2019, 12:05 AM   #63
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Originally Posted by angrysoba View Post
Sure, but from my understanding, the Terri Schiavo case and the Tony Bland cases both involved the taking away of the feeding tube. I already know that it takes a few days to die that way. But you also used the term “murder” and the legal status of withdrawing life-support (which does include feeding tubes). So you were talking about the moral dimension of euthanasia before I replied to you.
So all this is because you didn't like my hyperbole?
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Old 10th January 2019, 12:06 AM   #64
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This is a 29 year old Apache Tribal member who drowned when she was 15. Extremely sad.

I also feel sorry for what this is going to do to the family. Their daughter, for all intents and purposes, is dead but now they have her son, their grandson, nephew, cousin, etc. How do you reconcile that? There is this child who you are obviously going to love the hell out of who came into the world in such a ****** up way.

I hope, against all hope, that it turns out to be her childhood sweetheart who did this in a moment of complete despair for what might have been. Still ****** up but maybe a little understandable.
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Old 10th January 2019, 12:07 AM   #65
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Originally Posted by RolandRat View Post
... Is her family paying for her to be kept in a vegetive state? Does her family even care? If there is no family, why is she being kept in this state? These are genuine questions, I haven't looked into this situation.
Well, there is an internet for that.
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Old 10th January 2019, 12:10 AM   #66
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Originally Posted by qayak View Post
This is a 29 year old Apache Tribal member who drowned when she was 15. Extremely sad.

I also feel sorry for what this is going to do to the family. Their daughter, for all intents and purposes, is dead but now they have her son, their grandson, nephew, cousin, etc. How do you reconcile that? There is this child who you are obviously going to love the hell out of who came into the world in such a ****** up way.

I hope, against all hope, that it turns out to be her childhood sweetheart who did this in a moment of complete despair for what might have been. Still ****** up but maybe a little understandable.
Drowned at 15, sad indeed. When it's a child, the family is often much more attentive to the family member.

They'd be especially devastated the facility failed to keep this girl safe.
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Old 10th January 2019, 12:14 AM   #67
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
So all this is because you didn't like my hyperbole?
No, "all this" is because you have been discussing the moral dimensions of euthanasia while claiming not to be.
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"Evolution and Ethics" T.H. Huxley (1893)
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Old 10th January 2019, 01:11 AM   #68
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She sounds like a hard-core slut.
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Old 10th January 2019, 01:20 AM   #69
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Originally Posted by angrysoba View Post
No, "all this" is because you have been discussing the moral dimensions of euthanasia while claiming not to be.
Show me the quote(s) so I can see what you are misunderstanding.

Or, just drop it, I'm not interested in discussing whether these patients should be fed or not. That's up to the families as far as I'm concerned.
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Old 10th January 2019, 01:36 AM   #70
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
Show me the quote(s) so I can see what you are misunderstanding.

Or, just drop it, I'm not interested in discussing whether these patients should be fed or not. That's up to the families as far as I'm concerned.
Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
Well you either murder the person or wait for them to die peacefully.
.
Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
I was trying to make a point. If you let someone die of starvation that was dependent on you for feeding, is that murder?

.
Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post

But you seem to be missing the point, not everyone wants to take the step of euthanasia, and families differ how they view these patients.
I don’t doubt that families differ in how they want their family members in PVS to be treated. I personally know of one family who take care of their son who has been in a similar situation for maybe decades. But the prognosis for those in PVS for making a recovery especially after such a long time as this case is extremely bad. Ironically one of the few who have “recovered” after years of PVS is someone who had been injured in the same incident (Hillsborough) as Tony Bland (who I previously mentioned).

Anyway, I agree with you that it is rare that families will withdraw all life support but I disagree with calling it murder.
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"Evolution and Ethics" T.H. Huxley (1893)
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Old 10th January 2019, 01:54 AM   #71
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
GnaGna who said this:"Want to know more" certainly suggests the study has broad implications.
Wanted. As in: 'I wanted to know more.' I read the WP article and came across that study.

Quote:
People tend to see PVS as a black and white issue. It isn't.
Yes. That was what I learned.
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Old 10th January 2019, 01:23 PM   #72
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Originally Posted by angrysoba View Post
...
Anyway, I agree with you that it is rare that families will withdraw all life support but I disagree with calling it murder.
And I told you it was hyperbole.
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Old 11th January 2019, 05:53 AM   #73
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
I wouldn't generalize about patients in PVS from that one article that looked at 40 patients over time in one facility.
That "facility" being a "20 bed unit specialising in the rehabilitation of patients with profound brain damage, including the vegetative state."
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Old 11th January 2019, 08:35 AM   #74
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Originally Posted by Information Analyst View Post
That "facility" being a "20 bed unit specialising in the rehabilitation of patients with profound brain damage, including the vegetative state."
I just had an unpleasant thought. They're investigating this one patient getting pregnant while vegetative. Are they checking all the other vegetative patients there as well? Ugh.
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Old 11th January 2019, 09:32 AM   #75
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
I just had an unpleasant thought. They're investigating this one patient getting pregnant while vegetative. Are they checking all the other vegetative patients there as well? Ugh.
You had to say it out loud, didn't you?
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Old 11th January 2019, 09:39 AM   #76
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Originally Posted by Information Analyst View Post
That "facility" being a "20 bed unit specialising in the rehabilitation of patients with profound brain damage, including the vegetative state."
So?
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Old 11th January 2019, 09:56 AM   #77
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
So?
You said: "I wouldn't generalize about patients in PVS from that one article that looked at 40 patients over time in one facility."

It's a specialist facility taking patients diagnosed - or misdiagnosed - elsewhere. It's not one hospital that may exceptionally have a lot of internal misdiagnoses because of some issue/s unique to that hospital. The paper specifically states: "The unit accepts patients from throughout the United Kingdom who are over the age of 16 years, have a diagnosis of acute onset brain damage causing profound physical and mental impairment, and are medically and surgically stable." This isn't one local hospital consistently dropping the ball.

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Old 11th January 2019, 10:34 AM   #78
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
You had to say it out loud, didn't you?
It's a fair point, though. It may well be the woman who gave birth wasn't the only one who was raped.
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Old 11th January 2019, 10:37 AM   #79
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I'd think if they find reasonable evidence of sexual assault on other patients it would make it more likely we were looking at an employee than a visitor.
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Old 11th January 2019, 10:54 AM   #80
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
I'm surprised that in a litigious society like America, care centres can get away with such blatant criminal neglect.
When you recognize the strict class structure in the US it's easy to see that the wealthy will almost always have their needs met and also have the means to engage lawyers in those cases where the needs are not met and the poor will suffer blatant criminal neglect and also not have the means to hire lawyers to try and correct any of these issues.



Originally Posted by angrysoba View Post
Certainly the potential culprits could go beyond staff. They might need to request (or subpoena) DNA from visitors including the woman's own family relatives. I would assume that visitors are logged.
Well, that's the point isn't it? There probably is some sort of logging system but it's rarely adhered to in subpar facilities. Or a staff member is taking money to rent out the patients and has the ability to conceal the visitor(s).



Originally Posted by Suddenly View Post
Probably, but if the cops really want to do it stopping them involves paying a lawyer and even then they could just lie about erasing it.

The more immediate issue is that a lot of crime labs are incompetent and/or shady and DNA is only as accurate as the lab is honest and competent. The best way to avoid this is keep the DNA out of their hands.

Then again, thanks to Fred Zain I've a borderline unreasonably cynical and skeptical attitude towards anything that comes out of a police run crime lab. I'm aware I can sound tinfoil hat paranoid on the subject...
In this instance, you and I fully agree. In fact, the first thought that came to mind is that if I were a worker in such a resident care facility, I would provide DNA test results through an attorney and I would never just hand over fresh DNA for them to... do whatever with. I would take on heavy debt if it were necessary too just to prevent any sort of misuse. Ounce prevention/pound cure... is my thinking.
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