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Tags Australia issues , Australia politics

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Old 28th August 2015, 05:18 PM   #161
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From The Guardian:

After 20 years, Australia's gun control debate is igniting once again

Quote:
Another shocking shooting in the United States. Like most Australians, my feeling of horror is followed by a flicker of relief. Unlike the Americans, when we suffered a tragedy, we acted – we did something that made our country safer. John Howard’s political courage after the 1996 Port Arthur massacre channelled our national grief into some of the toughest gun laws in the world.

Since then there hasn’t been another massacre – as everyone from Barack Obama to John Oliver has noted. Studies have suggested that the mass gun buyback and stricter licensing rules resulted in lower rates of homicide and suicide. But while we’ve been basking in international acclamation of a policy we got right, the Australian gun lobby has been quietly scratching away at the restrictions.

This month Liberal Democrat senator David Leyonhjelm forced the Abbott government into a partial retreat on an already trumpeted ban on imports of a new rapid-action shotgun. Leyonhjelm happily boasted in the Senate that he had undertaken political “blackmail” – in return for the government’s backflip, he abandoned a plan to vote for an entirely unrelated Labor amendment that would have required an adult or guardian to be present when blood, saliva or fingerprints are taken from children by the Australia’s Border Force.
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Old 28th August 2015, 05:21 PM   #162
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The electorate should be ashamed to have voted in such a bunch of venal, idiotic independents. It's embarassing.
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Old 28th August 2015, 06:07 PM   #163
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post

I am never surprised by the rationality, reasonableness, understanding, courtesy, and gentility of gunshy Gaurdian readers
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Old 29th August 2015, 02:24 PM   #164
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http://www.theguardian.com/australia...ing-once-again
Quote:
But earlier this year the gun control lobby began raising the alarm about the imminent importation of the Adler A110 shotgun, a Turkish-made weapon capable of firing seven shots in rapid succession.
Quote:
“It would have completely undermined the National Firearms Agreement. It puts rapid-fire shotguns in the hands of the general community, which is exactly what the agreement was designed to avoid,” said Roland Browne, vice-president of Gun Control Australia.
Completely undermined? Was the purpose of the NFA to prevent crime or just make gun ownership inconvenient?

Quote:
Browne said the Adler “fell through the cracks” of the 1996 agreement because it works like a self-loading shotgun, even though technically it is not one.
Really? A gun that requires the operator to work the action manually with the hand works just like a self-loading shotgun? The self-loading long arms I'm familiar with all use a recoil operated or gas operated mechanism to work the bolt. Pump, lever and bolt operated shotguns all use a manually operated level/slide to work the bolt. I guess if an automobile's 5-speed manual transmission is just like an automatic then a lever operated shotgun is just like a self-loading one.

To be fair though, lever operated shotguns like the Winchester 1887 have only been around for about 130 years.

So how is anyone able to ban importation of a lever operated shotgun even if it holds more than five rounds? They're not pump or semi-auto operated. They would not be category C or D correct?

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Old 29th August 2015, 07:47 PM   #165
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Originally Posted by Ranb View Post
So how is anyone able to ban importation of a lever operated shotgun even if it holds more than five rounds? They're not pump or semi-auto operated. They would not be category C or D correct?

Ranb
Well in Western Australia even a bolt action rifle can be Class D if it has a modern stock on it: http://www.beatonfirearms.com.au/pos...ry-appearance/

Lunacy.
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Old 29th August 2015, 08:46 PM   #166
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Originally Posted by Ranb View Post
Really? A gun that requires the operator to work the action manually with the hand works just like a self-loading shotgun?
Thank you for saying this.

Once again, it has been shown well and truly that australian gun laws are created by people who watch too many 80's cop dramas.
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Old 29th August 2015, 09:24 PM   #167
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Originally Posted by devnull View Post
Once again, it has been shown well and truly that australian gun laws are created by people who watch too many 80's cop dramas.
There have been complaints on this forum that Australia imports too much American culture; it somehow being the fault of those Americans. The culture of "idiotic firearm mechanics" is one the Australians could avoid importing lest they make themselves appear to be as foolish as Carolyn (the shoulder thing that goes up) McCarthy.

Originally Posted by WildCat View Post
Lunacy.
We thought of that silly crap too. Do pistol grips really make a semi-auto rifle more lethal? Not in my hands; and I'm a fairly good shot.

Ranb

Last edited by Ranb; 29th August 2015 at 09:28 PM.
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Old 29th August 2015, 10:27 PM   #168
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Originally Posted by devnull View Post
Thank you for saying this.
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I AGREE


Quote:
Once again, it has been shown well and truly that australian gun laws are created by people who watch too many 80's cop dramas.
Or who lived through the horrific aftermath of Port Arthur.
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Old 29th August 2015, 10:52 PM   #169
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Originally Posted by fromdownunder View Post
Several years ago, my brother, who is retired but has a ten acre hobby farm got a shotgun license in two weeks to shoot feral animals. This is in Victoria. If you can demonstrate a need to own a gun, it is a remarkably easy process to get one.

With me, living in beautiful downtown Lara, with no feral animals around, and the worst risk being swooping magpies in the late spring, I cannot justify owning a gun. And I don't care.

Norm
Seems sensible to me, and the moonbat **** crazy gunloverstanians here in America have sold me against the concept of gun rights.
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Old 29th August 2015, 11:58 PM   #170
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Originally Posted by bit_pattern View Post
Or who lived through the horrific aftermath of Port Arthur.
For us, a horrific aftermath.

For Americans, Thursday.
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Old 30th August 2015, 07:09 AM   #171
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Originally Posted by bit_pattern View Post
Or who lived through the horrific aftermath of Port Arthur.
Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
For us, a horrific aftermath.
Prompting a knee-jerk reaction that didn't have any effect on the murder rate nor did it stop mass killings.

The murder rate in the USA actually fell more than the murder rate of Australia since 1996, even as most states loosened their gun laws. But Australians assign 100% of the drop to draconian gun laws, while critical thinkers find the effect much more likely the result of the banning of leaded gasoline worldwide.
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Old 30th August 2015, 07:10 AM   #172
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
For us, a horrific aftermath.

For Americans, Thursday.
...at a preschool.
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Old 30th August 2015, 04:08 PM   #173
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Originally Posted by WildCat View Post
Prompting a knee-jerk reaction that didn't have any effect on the murder rate nor did it stop mass killings.

The murder rate in the USA actually fell more than the murder rate of Australia since 1996, even as most states loosened their gun laws. But Australians assign 100% of the drop to draconian gun laws, while critical thinkers find the effect much more likely the result of the banning of leaded gasoline worldwide.
How long till the USA murder rate reaches the Australian murder rate?
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Old 30th August 2015, 04:14 PM   #174
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Yes, Port Arthur makes it acceptable to lie about the basic operation of any gun.

Wait, what?
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Old 30th August 2015, 07:01 PM   #175
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Originally Posted by tyr_13 View Post
Yes, Port Arthur makes it acceptable to lie about the basic operation of any gun.

Wait, what?
True dat. 1996 I heard from the lips of the delightful Sammy Lee that a proper hunting bullet remained undamaged and drilled a nice small hole in the meat, while an evil AR-15 military bullet spread to the size of a dinner plate
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Old 30th August 2015, 07:16 PM   #176
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Originally Posted by a_unique_person View Post
How long till the USA murder rate reaches the Australian murder rate?
By my very rough calculations, 2049, if the Australian rate remains the same. Have to do something about that of course.

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Old 30th August 2015, 07:20 PM   #177
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Originally Posted by fromdownunder View Post
With me, living in beautiful downtown Lara, with no feral animals around, and the worst risk being swooping magpies in the late spring, I cannot justify owning a gun. And I don't care.
Not even for sporting use?

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Old 31st August 2015, 12:10 AM   #178
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Originally Posted by Ranb View Post
Not even for sporting use?

Ranb
Not everybody is interested in sporting use. In fact, most people aren't. They own footballs and cricket bats for sports.

So no, a majority of Australians have absolutely no reason whatsoever to consider owning a gun. Those that do, the law allows for.
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Old 31st August 2015, 12:38 AM   #179
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Originally Posted by WildCat View Post
Prompting a knee-jerk reaction that didn't have any effect on the murder rate nor did it stop mass killings.
You know this is a lie. It's been pointed out to you many times. This thread is about guns. There hasn't been a mass gun killing since Port Arthur. Yes, deaths by swimming pool, golf clubs and sharks. Not guns.

The laws enacted after Port Arthur had the desired result, with most Australians very happy and a few gun nuts crying in their beer. Only to have the intent of the law watered down by an idiot Independent who nobody voted for. Shameful.
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Old 31st August 2015, 01:16 AM   #180
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Originally Posted by WildCat View Post
Prompting a knee-jerk reaction that didn't have any effect on the murder rate nor did it stop mass killings.

The murder rate in the USA actually fell more than the murder rate of Australia since 1996, even as most states loosened their gun laws. But Australians assign 100% of the drop to draconian gun laws, while critical thinkers find the effect much more likely the result of the banning of leaded gasoline worldwide.
The gun laws were designed to reduce firearm-related homicides. They were never intended as a panacea for all violent crime. The laws did what they were intended for.

http://www.abc.net.au/cm/lb/4905120/...earms-data.jpg

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Old 31st August 2015, 01:20 AM   #181
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It seems so self-evident that the Australia gun laws have been a Good Thing that I haven't been following the thread. But I just came across this - written by a doctor in about 1634:


''Tis not only the mischief of diseases, and the villany of
poisons, that make an end of us; we vainly* accuse the fury of guns, and
the new inventions of death:—it is in the power of every hand to destroy
us, and we are beholden unto every one we meet, he doth not kill us.
There is therefore but one comfort left, that though it be in the power
of the weakest arm to take away life.....

Religio Medici


*he means "in vain", as in "the weediest kid with a gun and a grudge can kill more or less at random".
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Old 31st August 2015, 02:48 AM   #182
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Originally Posted by Sceptic-PK View Post
The gun laws were designed to reduce firearm-related homicides. They were never intended as a panacea for all violent crime. The laws did what they were intended for.

http://www.abc.net.au/cm/lb/4905120/...earms-data.jpg
Oh Jeez facts. Something Wildcat is not familiar with. He's much more comfortable with the fiction that gun laws in Australia have not reduced mass gun deaths. Prepare for swimming pool and paper cuts death statistics......
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Old 31st August 2015, 04:55 AM   #183
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Originally Posted by lionking View Post
Oh Jeez facts. Something Wildcat is not familiar with. He's much more comfortable with the fiction that gun laws in Australia have not reduced mass gun deaths. Prepare for swimming pool and paper cuts death statistics......
I do wish the chart went back further into the past - it could just be a sharp drop, because of Port Arthur, in an already-continual decline. It was originally designed that way because it was addressing a specific quote:
Quote:
"There were more deaths after the gun bans from guns than there were in the three years before Port Arthur," Mr Katter said on Tuesday
This graph, from the AIC, seems to suggest there was a pre-existing decline (reconstructed from data there to avoid hotlinking):


(By the way, I'm for gun control, I just don't think the ABC graph is very useful.)
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Old 31st August 2015, 06:40 AM   #184
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Originally Posted by bit_pattern View Post
Or who lived through the horrific aftermath of Port Arthur.
i can buy a lever action 30-30, but not a lever action shot gun, and this is sane?

Silencers are *banned*, and this is sane?
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Old 31st August 2015, 08:40 AM   #185
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
Not everybody is interested in sporting use. In fact, most people aren't. They own footballs and cricket bats for sports.
I was asking fromdownunder why he (of she) can't justify owning one for sporting use.

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Old 31st August 2015, 09:56 AM   #186
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Originally Posted by devnull View Post
Silencers are *banned*, and this is sane?
Why were silencers banned in Australia? Was it in response to a silencer crime problem?

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Old 31st August 2015, 11:27 AM   #187
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Originally Posted by devnull View Post
i can buy a lever action 30-30, but not a lever action shot gun, and this is sane?

Silencers are *banned*, and this is sane?
If it's the public's will, of course. There is no right to own guns in Australia, so it's entirely a legislative matter. What do you think the overall public opinion is of strong gun control?

What's insane is a single idiot Independent blackmailing the government into changing the law.

And why would anyone want a silencer? This is a serious question.
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Old 31st August 2015, 11:29 AM   #188
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Originally Posted by uvar View Post
I do wish the chart went back further into the past - it could just be a sharp drop, because of Port Arthur, in an already-continual decline. It was originally designed that way because it was addressing a specific quote:


This graph, from the AIC, seems to suggest there was a pre-existing decline (reconstructed from data there to avoid hotlinking):
http://www.internationalskeptics.com...43fec0dc0b.png

(By the way, I'm for gun control, I just don't think the ABC graph is very useful.)
Quoting that loon Bob Katter is not the way to support any argument. If he said the sky was blue, I'd go outside to check.
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Old 31st August 2015, 01:25 PM   #189
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Originally Posted by Ranb View Post
I was asking fromdownunder why he (of she) can't justify owning one for sporting use.

Ranb
I could justify purchasing a gun, and get licensed if I was a member of a shooting club, or had a kangaroo culling license, or was a duck shooter etc. it really is that simple. I am just not interested.

Australia has quite a few Olympic and Commonwealth Games gun medalists who don't seem to have any problems training with, and using, uuummm, guns. And hundreds of gun clubs that regularly have shooting competitions.

Norm
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Old 31st August 2015, 05:01 PM   #190
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Originally Posted by lionking View Post
Quoting that loon Bob Katter is not the way to support any argument. If he said the sky was blue, I'd go outside to check.
I was quoting him to indicate why the original chart only showed the three years previous to 1996, not because of his position. The linked article makes it pretty clear his statement was incorrect.
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Old 31st August 2015, 06:25 PM   #191
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Originally Posted by lionking View Post
And why would anyone want a silencer? This is a serious question.
A serious answer for you again. Perhaps you can remember it this time?

Silencers (or mufflers as they are also called in the US Code) reduce the noise of a firearm. Unless noise is the intended byproduct of a machine, a muffler or other noise abatement is usually a safety feature or benefit when used properly. Most rational people want noise reduction, is this hard to understand? Makes perfect sense to me and lots of other people.

I'm not sure why you would have a problem with a muffler that reduces the noise of a hunting rifle down to 135 decibels. A silencer has no effect on action noise, bullet flight noise and impact noise. It is impossible to completely hide the noise of a gunshot of a typical rifle. Pistols are even louder than rifles when suppressed.

I want a muffler for my rifle for the same reason I want a silencer on my motorcycle. Makes sense doesn't it? People/governments in many other countries including New Zealand and Great Britain see it this way, why not you and your Australian comrades?

Instead of appearing to be incredulous, why not explain why it seems you have a problem with silencers. Was there a silencer crime problem in Australia? I never heard of one.

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Old 31st August 2015, 08:58 PM   #192
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Originally Posted by devnull View Post
i can buy a lever action 30-30, but not a lever action shot gun, and this is sane?

Silencers are *banned*, and this is sane?
Nobody ever claimed the legislation(s) was perfect, or that legislators have a strong grasp of the nuances in the many and varied firearms available. If you're saying that the gun laws could be strengthened to be more consistent, then I would agree with you.

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Old 31st August 2015, 10:45 PM   #193
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Originally Posted by Ranb View Post
A serious answer for you again. Perhaps you can remember it this time?

Silencers (or mufflers as they are also called in the US Code) reduce the noise of a firearm. Unless noise is the intended byproduct of a machine, a muffler or other noise abatement is usually a safety feature or benefit when used properly. Most rational people want noise reduction, is this hard to understand? Makes perfect sense to me and lots of other people.

I'm not sure why you would have a problem with a muffler that reduces the noise of a hunting rifle down to 135 decibels. A silencer has no effect on action noise, bullet flight noise and impact noise. It is impossible to completely hide the noise of a gunshot of a typical rifle. Pistols are even louder than rifles when suppressed.

I want a muffler for my rifle for the same reason I want a silencer on my motorcycle. Makes sense doesn't it? People/governments in many other countries including New Zealand and Great Britain see it this way, why not you and your Australian comrades?

Instead of appearing to be incredulous, why not explain why it seems you have a problem with silencers. Was there a silencer crime problem in Australia? I never heard of one.

Ranb
If they're so good, why don't you use a silencer every time you fire your gun? Why doesn't everybody? Why don't you just buy guns with built-in silencers? Why is firing a gun without a silencer not against noise pollution laws?

It seems to me that silencers are an option - one that most people don't choose most of the time. It leads me to ask - why are you silencing your gun this time, and not other times? Why don't you want me to hear your discharge this time, when you're perfectly happy for me to hear it at other times?

Seems to me that you use a silencer only when you want to hide the fact that you're shooting. If it were just about noise control, then everybody would be using them all the time. Except for those who, like those wankers who ride unmuffled Harley Davidsons, just want to make as loud a noise as possible.
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Old 1st September 2015, 02:09 AM   #194
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Originally Posted by Ranb View Post
Why were silencers banned in Australia? Was it in response to a silencer crime problem?

Ranb
Nup. Our current theory is the lawmakers think they make guns go "pew pew!", and are only used by paid assassins.
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Old 1st September 2015, 02:30 AM   #195
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Originally Posted by WildCat View Post
The murder rate in the USA actually fell more than the murder rate of Australia since 1996, even as most states loosened their gun laws. But Australians assign 100% of the drop to draconian gun laws, while critical thinkers find the effect much more likely the result of the banning of leaded gasoline worldwide.
Have they started using lead again?

Murder rates seem to be going up in many cities across USA: http://www.nytimes.com/2015/09/01/us...ties.html?_r=0
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Old 1st September 2015, 03:09 AM   #196
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
If they're so good, why don't you use a silencer every time you fire your gun? Why doesn't everybody? Why don't you just buy guns with built-in silencers? Why is firing a gun without a silencer not against noise pollution laws?

It seems to me that silencers are an option - one that most people don't choose most of the time. It leads me to ask - why are you silencing your gun this time, and not other times? Why don't you want me to hear your discharge this time, when you're perfectly happy for me to hear it at other times?

Seems to me that you use a silencer only when you want to hide the fact that you're shooting. If it were just about noise control, then everybody would be using them all the time. Except for those who, like those wankers who ride unmuffled Harley Davidsons, just want to make as loud a noise as possible.
That's a lot of questions, and some of them seem like they wouldn't have been hard to research, assuming you want to know the answer. For instance, just like a car muffler, silencers/suppressors have an effect on performance (some negatives, some positives, apart from sound levels). And although I'm not a lawyer, I'm pretty sure firing a gun freely in built-up areas is already usually prohibited (disorderly conduct, that sort of thing), and outside those places there are plenty of locations you can shoot where, even if anybody else heard you, noise pollution laws wouldn't apply.

I suppose if a person hated the entire concept of guns they might think anybody near one deserved hearing damage, but that's a bit petty.

Ranb, devnull is basically right - at this point they're banned because they're already banned, fearmongering about them falling into the hands of criminals is easy*, and talk about relaxing gun laws is a good way to get bad attention from voters who share arthwollipot's opinions. (Also, banning suppressors makes it harder to secretly hunt in national parks, according to one Greens press release I found just now.)

*Only when an organisation or independent politician brings the topic up; the fearmongering is usually about more important topics.
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Old 1st September 2015, 03:22 AM   #197
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Originally Posted by devnull View Post
Nup. Our current theory is the lawmakers think they make guns go "pew pew!", and are only used by paid assassins.
Yes, you would find a fair few Australians unfamiliar with firearms whose first thoughts might be in that direction. Notwithstanding the effect of popular culture on political opinion, who really gives a **** though? Australian voters and their state and federal representatives support an imperfect set of rules governing firearm use.

I agree that all you Yanks have a right to criticise something in Australia (coz let's be honest, you guys cop it from everyone all the damned time), but nobody in our galaxy cares about your opinions re gun control. I mean come on fellas. Fair suck of the sav!
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Old 1st September 2015, 05:56 AM   #198
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Dude, Im an Aussie
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Old 1st September 2015, 06:04 AM   #199
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Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post
Have they started using lead again?

Murder rates seem to be going up in many cities across USA: http://www.nytimes.com/2015/09/01/us...ties.html?_r=0
How does that change what I said? Murder rates fell worldwide in the 1990s, and Australia assigned the entire drop in Australia to a gun law.

Plot the rate of leaded gasoline exposure to the homicide rate 23 years later (because it is childhood lead exposure that is linked to violent crime as adults) and there is a very strong correlation.

http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-27067615
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Old 1st September 2015, 06:20 AM   #200
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
If they're so good, why don't you use a silencer every time you fire your gun?
Many reasons. Not all guns are able to be equipped with one, for one thing. With very few exceptions (Nagant M1895), they don't work with revolvers at all, simply due to the way revolvers function.

For another, there is a perception (which may or may not be accurate, depending on the shooter gun, and silencer) that they affect accuracy, which I think you'll agree is fairly important.

Quote:
Why doesn't everybody?
Because they're *********** expensive and a legal hassle, due to people getting their information on the subject from movies and legislating accordingly. RanB knows more than I do, but you basically have to set up a trust to "own" one (and then you don't own it, the "trust" does).

And again, not all guns will work with suppressors.

Quote:
Why don't you just buy guns with built-in silencers?
Suppressors need to be pulled apart and cleaned regularly to be functional. There's really no point in building them right in.

Quote:
Why is firing a gun without a silencer not against noise pollution laws?
Because a suppressor doesn't make it "quiet" by a long shot.

Quote:
Seems to me that you use a silencer only when you want to hide the fact that you're shooting.


This is what a "silencer" on a modern firearm actually sounds like:

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I AGREE


There ain't no way that's going to "hide the fact that you're shooting."
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