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Tags astronomy , New Horizons , pluto

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Old 16th July 2015, 12:06 PM   #241
Elagabalus
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Not sure why they keep showing that "amazing" Hi-Res image of Hydra:

http://www.planetary.org/multimedia/...-horizons.html

Hydra kinda looks like Ms. Pacman giving us the finger
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Old 16th July 2015, 12:07 PM   #242
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Originally Posted by phunk View Post
I've heard "sharon", "charon", and "karon" and have no idea which is correct.
It all depends on your definition of "correct." The dictionary pronunciation is "kha-ron" after the ferryman in Greek mythology. According to Wikipedia the moon was named Charon by its discoverer, James Christy after his wife's nickname, "Char."
NASA has apparenly adopted the "Sharon" pronunciation as an institutional inside joke.

"There is minor debate over the preferred pronunciation of the name. The practice of following the classical pronunciation established for the mythological ferryman Charon (IPA [ˈkɛ:rən]) is used by major English-language dictionaries, such as the Merriam-Webster and Oxford English Dictionary.[13][14] These indicate only one pronunciation of "Charon" when referring specifically to Pluto's moon: with an initial "k" sound. Speakers of many languages other than English, and many English-speaking astronomers as well, follow this pronunciation.[15]" Wikipedia.

No one seems to call the moon "Charon."
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Old 16th July 2015, 12:16 PM   #243
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
Oh good grief!

Like that made a difference in the context of the issue at hand.

OK then, the Moon is tidally locked and you don't see significant heating.

It's one thing to clarify an issue, I like learning something as much as the next guy. But there was no reason to post like it was a pissing contest.
No offence intended.
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Old 16th July 2015, 12:20 PM   #244
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NASA to Release New Pluto Images, Science Findings at July 17 NASA TV Briefing.
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Old 16th July 2015, 12:27 PM   #245
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I've always pronounced Charon "Karen", like Karen Valentine, because I read in a book somewhere that that was the correct pronunciation. I may, of course, be entirely wrong.
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Old 16th July 2015, 12:36 PM   #246
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
There are so many other icy bodies out there, wouldn't some of the others experience the same melting?

And Pluto rotates every 6 hours, making it harder for solar heating to build up.
Wonder what that rotation does to the ice. It's not the strongest material in the world, and I'm sure the forces involved have to have SOME effect on it.

Originally Posted by Elagabalus
Not sure why they keep showing that "amazing" Hi-Res image of Hydra:
It's the best we've got.
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Old 16th July 2015, 12:43 PM   #247
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Originally Posted by jhunter1163 View Post
I've always pronounced Charon "Karen", like Karen Valentine, because I read in a book somewhere that that was the correct pronunciation. I may, of course, be entirely wrong.
I always thought it was "chair-on" as in "put the chair on the floor".
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Old 16th July 2015, 01:31 PM   #248
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Originally Posted by Spindrift View Post
And maybe an Ewok village.
No, the Ewoks are on Titan. https://youtu.be/nNDfGAU23nE?t=1m57s
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Old 16th July 2015, 01:41 PM   #249
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Originally Posted by Dinwar View Post
Wonder what that rotation does to the ice. It's not the strongest material in the world, and I'm sure the forces involved have to have SOME effect on it.
Pluto rotates every six days, not every six hours. So there's not much effect.

Now, Haumea, on the other hand...
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Old 16th July 2015, 01:46 PM   #250
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Pluto rotates every six days, not every six hours. So there's not much effect.
Over a few million years small effects accumulate. It may not even be direct effects--could be that the rotation introduces a small force, which can be seen as a slight tendancy for things to move in one direction.

I'm not saying "I'm right, you're wrong"; rather, I'm trying to think this through. In geology, even minor forces have a tendancy to build up to mountains and continents.
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Old 16th July 2015, 02:16 PM   #251
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Whoops, six days then.

From 2002: Global warming on Pluto
Quote:
Though Pluto was closest to the Sun in 1989, a warming trend 13 years later does not surprise David Tholen, a University of Hawaii astronomer involved in the discovery. ...

Elliot said the Aug. 20 occultation was the first that allowed such a deep probing of the composition, pressure and the always-frigid temperature of Pluto's atmosphere, which ranges from -391 to -274 degrees Fahrenheit (-235 to -170 degrees Celsius).
Doesn't sound like solar heating could significantly melt the surface.
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Old 16th July 2015, 02:20 PM   #252
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
Doesn't sound like solar heating could significantly melt the surface.
Depends on a few factors, such as composition and the presence of other heat sources. Maybe radioactivity heats it to JUUUUUST under melting, then the Sun adds the last few calories?
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Old 16th July 2015, 02:22 PM   #253
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Originally Posted by Dinwar View Post
Over a few million years small effects accumulate. It may not even be direct effects--could be that the rotation introduces a small force, which can be seen as a slight tendancy for things to move in one direction.
Gravity is much stronger (even on Pluto).

Simple calculation for g on the surface is Gm/r^2 = 0.74m/s^2 (about 7.5% earth gravity).
Local correction for rotation on the equator = v^2/r = 1.4x10^-4 m/s^2. So we can basically ignore any static component here on the basis that it's less than the margin of error in our measurement of g anyway.

Now if there were a dynamic component (such as tidal interactions), then things would be more interesting.
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Old 16th July 2015, 02:34 PM   #254
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
There are so many other icy bodies out there, wouldn't some of the others experience the same melting?

And Pluto rotates every 6 hours, making it harder for solar heating to build up.
I was just mentioning the possibility. I don't know Pluto's composition.
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Old 16th July 2015, 03:05 PM   #255
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Originally Posted by Dinwar View Post
Over a few million years small effects accumulate. It may not even be direct effects--could be that the rotation introduces a small force, which can be seen as a slight tendancy for things to move in one direction.
Sure. We should expect Pluto to be ever so slightly oblate as a result of rotation. Once equilibrium oblateness is obtained, there should be no resulting net forces.

But that oblateness is probably less than Earth's. I brought up Haumea because that's an example where the equilibrium oblateness is very significant.
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Old 16th July 2015, 03:19 PM   #256
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Originally Posted by Dinwar View Post
Depends on ... the presence of other heat sources. Maybe radioactivity heats it to JUUUUUST under melting, then the Sun adds the last few calories?
Given that would make solar heating only secondary to internal heat sources it seems a stretch to then say solar heating resurfaced the ice.

Don't you think this exercise of attributing the resurfacing to solar heating to be getting just a bit silly, or perhaps anal?
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Old 16th July 2015, 03:25 PM   #257
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Originally Posted by rjh01 View Post
My guess is that there would not be much internal heat in Pluto as it is so much smaller than the moon. Any heat would be rapidly lost. I like the idea that the surface partially melts when Pluto gets nearer the sun.
No way does it get warm enough for water ice to melt, though.
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Old 16th July 2015, 03:38 PM   #258
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The Mordor region on Charon looks like it is a depression, with the dark material coating it like dust. Could it be a large, shallow crater filled with debris?
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Old 16th July 2015, 03:43 PM   #259
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Now, were there any plant-type life on such a body, it would not be green, it would be jet black.
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Old 16th July 2015, 03:58 PM   #260
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Originally Posted by Vermonter View Post
The Mordor region on Charon looks like it is a depression, with the dark material coating it like dust. Could it be a large, shallow crater filled with debris?
It looks like the maria on our Moon, which are lava beds.
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Old 16th July 2015, 04:12 PM   #261
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Originally Posted by Trebuchet View Post
It looks like the maria on our Moon, which are lava beds.
♫I just met a lava bed named Maria!♫
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Old 16th July 2015, 04:16 PM   #262
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Originally Posted by BenBurch View Post
Now, were there any plant-type life on such a body, it would not be green, it would be jet black.
Why?
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Old 16th July 2015, 04:27 PM   #263
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Originally Posted by BenBurch View Post
No way does it get warm enough for water ice to melt, though.
Agreed. There could be something else that melts though. Maybe nitrogen. That melts and boils in the right temperature zone.

http://www.lenntech.com/periodic/elements/n.htm
Quote:
Melting point -210 C
Boiling point -195.8 C


Read more: http://www.lenntech.com/periodic/ele...#ixzz3g6FZmal9


Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger
Whoops, six days then.

From 2002: Global warming on Pluto
Quote:
Though Pluto was closest to the Sun in 1989, a warming trend 13 years later does not surprise David Tholen, a University of Hawaii astronomer involved in the discovery. ...

Elliot said the Aug. 20 occultation was the first that allowed such a deep probing of the composition, pressure and the always-frigid temperature of Pluto's atmosphere, which ranges from -391 to -274 degrees Fahrenheit (-235 to -170 degrees Celsius).
Doesn't sound like solar heating could significantly melt the surface.
I think you will agree that not much effect is required.
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Old 16th July 2015, 04:42 PM   #264
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Originally Posted by rjh01 View Post
Agreed. There could be something else that melts though. Maybe nitrogen. That melts and boils in the right temperature zone.
http://www.lenntech.com/periodic/elements/n.htm
Read more: http://www.lenntech.com/periodic/ele...#ixzz3g6FZmal9
I think you will agree that not much effect is required.
I agree ice melts on Mars. But melting enough to resurface an icy body is still a stretch.

The same with methane ice, it would have to comprise a large surface area.

The Ice of Pluto is More Diverse Than We Realized
Quote:
The entire world has methane ice, but its concentrated at the equator and relatively thin at the pole.
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Old 16th July 2015, 10:01 PM   #265
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Originally Posted by Dinwar View Post
Maybe the planets ricocheted off one another, and were captured in each other's gravity? I'm not up on my planetary collision physics, but I suspect that would be a poor explanation--anything slow enough to be captured would be a direct hit, not a glancing blow, and anything fast enough to be a glancing blow wouldn't allow for capture (or would completely liquify things).
Ergo:
Originally Posted by Southwind17 View Post
I'd like to see a model/animation that shows moons, the likes of Charon, emanating from a collision. Anybody?
I find the collision theory, whilst seemingly plausible, highly improbable.
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Old 16th July 2015, 10:31 PM   #266
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According to the Free Dictionary if it's any kind of authority Charon is pronounced "kr′ən":
Quote:
Charon (kr′ən)
n. Greek Mythology
1. The ferryman who conveyed the dead to Hades over the river Styx.
2. Astronomy The largest of Pluto's three satellites.
One wonders how it ever became translated to 'Ch'.
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Old 16th July 2015, 11:20 PM   #267
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Originally Posted by davefoc View Post
As others have noted carrying the rocket and the fuel to slow the space craft would have required a much larger space craft.

However, I don't think batman would use a rocket to slow the space craft. He would blast a self digging anchor into Pluto attached to a carbon fiber rope to cause the space craft to curve into an orbit around the planet. It's amazing that NASA didn't use this approach. If they had we could be getting pictures beamed back from Pluto for years to come.
I've been thinking about this idea and have come to realize there is a problem with it. When Batman goes around a building using his hook and rope he keeps going just in a different direction. So the idea might not be as practical as I thought at first.

However, I think if Batman was faced with this problem he'd fire his self digging anchor into Pluto and then slowly apply the brake on the reel that the carbon fiber rope was being deployed out of until he had slowed enough that he could fire his maneuvering rockets to establish an orbit around Pluto.
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Old 17th July 2015, 01:11 AM   #268
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Originally Posted by davefoc View Post
As others have noted carrying the rocket and the fuel to slow the space craft would have required a much larger space craft.

However, I don't think batman would use a rocket to slow the space craft. He would blast a self digging anchor into Pluto attached to a carbon fiber rope to cause the space craft to curve into an orbit around the planet. It's amazing that NASA didn't use this approach. If they had we could be getting pictures beamed back from Pluto for years to come.
I feel like you'd run into the same rocket equation tyranny. As the spacecraft is being slowed by the line, the line is undergoing a force. The force the line can stand is related to the thickness of the line.

The stronger you make a line, the heavier it gets and thus the heavier the spacecraft, and you'll need stronger line. If you try stop the spacecraft less quickly, you'll need more line, which is heavier, and you'll need stronger line.

Anyone care to graph this?
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Old 17th July 2015, 01:26 AM   #269
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Originally Posted by RussDill View Post
I feel like you'd run into the same rocket equation tyranny. As the spacecraft is being slowed by the line, the line is undergoing a force. The force the line can stand is related to the thickness of the line.

The stronger you make a line, the heavier it gets and thus the heavier the spacecraft, and you'll need stronger line. If you try stop the spacecraft less quickly, you'll need more line, which is heavier, and you'll need stronger line.

Anyone care to graph this?
False argument. Nanotechnology is really light. Think spiderwebs. Damn back to Spiderman.
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Old 17th July 2015, 02:09 AM   #270
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Originally Posted by Samson View Post
False argument. Nanotechnology is really light. Think spiderwebs. Damn back to Spiderman.
Ah, crafted from unobtanium
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Old 17th July 2015, 02:27 AM   #271
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Originally Posted by davefoc View Post
I've been thinking about this idea and have come to realize there is a problem with it. When Batman goes around a building using his hook and rope he keeps going just in a different direction. So the idea might not be as practical as I thought at first.

However, I think if Batman was faced with this problem he'd fire his self digging anchor into Pluto and then slowly apply the brake on the reel that the carbon fiber rope was being deployed out of until he had slowed enough that he could fire his maneuvering rockets to establish an orbit around Pluto.
Why not use the "slingshot effect" by tracing a path among Pluto and its various moons, until the craft had slowed down? Then enter Pluto's atmosphere for final braking, and land on the surface.

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Old 17th July 2015, 03:20 AM   #272
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Or we just find whatever planet the monoliths are hiding on and let them use their technomagic to turn us into Gods that can visit anything we want.
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Old 17th July 2015, 03:28 AM   #273
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Originally Posted by Travis View Post
Or we just find whatever planet the monoliths are hiding on and let them use their technomagic to turn us into Gods that can visit anything we want.
As long as we aren't travelling too fast when we approach the monolith planet, and whizz past it.
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Old 17th July 2015, 04:01 AM   #274
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Originally Posted by Travis View Post
Or we just find whatever planet the monoliths are hiding on and let them use their technomagic to turn us into Gods that can visit anything we want.
Sounds like a plan!
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Old 17th July 2015, 04:57 AM   #275
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Originally Posted by Craig B View Post
Why not use the "slingshot effect" by tracing a path among Pluto and its various moons, until the craft had slowed down? Then enter Pluto's atmosphere for final braking, and land on the surface.
My immediate answer is weak gravitational fields, though I'd need to crunch some numbers to be sure.
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Old 17th July 2015, 05:09 AM   #276
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Originally Posted by CelticRose View Post
Why?
Would need all possible heat for metabolism.
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Old 17th July 2015, 05:11 AM   #277
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Originally Posted by Craig B View Post
Why not use the "slingshot effect" by tracing a path among Pluto and its various moons, until the craft had slowed down? Then enter Pluto's atmosphere for final braking, and land on the surface.
Originally Posted by catsmate View Post
My immediate answer is weak gravitational fields, though I'd need to crunch some numbers to be sure.
but don't forget the sumptuous dozen μ(micro)bar atmospheric pressure for aerobraking
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Old 17th July 2015, 05:16 AM   #278
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Originally Posted by wea View Post
but don't forget the sumptuous dozen μ(micro)bar atmospheric pressure for aerobraking
The alternative (because this won't work) is you take 90 years to get there so you have a manageable velocity for capture.
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Old 17th July 2015, 05:50 AM   #279
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Originally Posted by catsmate View Post
My immediate answer is weak gravitational fields, though I'd need to crunch some numbers to be sure.
You don't need to crunch any numbers, just look two up and compare. Pluto's escape velocity is 1.2 km/s, and that's at the surface. New Horizon was flying by at a relative velocity of 13.8 km/s. There was never any possibility of gravitational capture.
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Old 17th July 2015, 05:58 AM   #280
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
Given that would make solar heating only secondary to internal heat sources it seems a stretch to then say solar heating resurfaced the ice.

Don't you think this exercise of attributing the resurfacing to solar heating to be getting just a bit silly, or perhaps anal?
I think that all of this is fairly typical of what happens when something truly novel is presented to science: everyone scrambles to try to understand it, using the models we have. Those models will inevitably fail (see my gravity idea for one). HOW those models fail allows us to construct new ones, which also fail but in new ways. So I'm more willing to give it a pass, and explore all ideas. They're wrong, inevitably, but it'll be fun to see hwo they're wrong.

Originally Posted by CelticRose
Why?
My immediate thought is that it'd have to absorb all light it gets. Problem with this, though, is that evolution doesn't actually optimize things, it only makes things good enough. See the history of chlorophil on our own planet.
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