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Old 24th October 2018, 06:03 PM   #881
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Originally Posted by Horatius View Post
How about we instead query the IRS, to see who paid the most in personal income taxes? Now that could shake some things up!

You're overthinking things. All they have to do is recognize who has the most expensive car or clothes.
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Old 25th October 2018, 05:43 AM   #882
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Originally Posted by quadraginta View Post
You're overthinking things. All they have to do is recognize who has the most expensive car or clothes.


You're missing the beauty of it though - this is both progressive and regressive. We can let the rich guys go to the head of the line, the way they always want to do - but only if they're willing to cough up a lot of money in taxes.


Imagine what it would be like if an Uber was about to choose between running over Donald Trump or Warren Buffet. Trump just might finally conclude that avoiding all his taxes doesn't actually "make him smart".
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Old 26th October 2018, 01:11 PM   #883
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Originally Posted by Horatius View Post
You're missing the beauty of it though - this is both progressive and regressive. We can let the rich guys go to the head of the line, the way they always want to do - but only if they're willing to cough up a lot of money in taxes.


Imagine what it would be like if an Uber was about to choose between running over Donald Trump or Warren Buffet. Trump just might finally conclude that avoiding all his taxes doesn't actually "make him smart".
No, people buy a card. It costs as much money as you wish to pay. If an out of control car approaches and is considering hitting that person it emits a signal that says avoid this person. He is worth $so much. If several people have these cards then the car will hit the person whose card is worth the least.
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Old 26th October 2018, 01:33 PM   #884
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Originally Posted by rjh01 View Post
No, people buy a card. It costs as much money as you wish to pay. If an out of control car approaches and is considering hitting that person it emits a signal that says avoid this person. He is worth $so much. If several people have these cards then the car will hit the person whose card is worth the least.
That's just stupid.

Apple is getting into driverless cars and the decision for their cars will be based on which generation iPhone you are carrying. Obviously.
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Old 26th October 2018, 03:00 PM   #885
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Originally Posted by Dr. Keith View Post
That's just stupid.

Apple is getting into driverless cars and the decision for their cars will be based on which generation iPhone you are carrying. Obviously.
That is even better. Then put a tax on phones. Only the rich and the paranoid could afford phones.
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Old 8th January 2019, 10:29 AM   #886
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An interesting update on the basic question that comes up in this and other similar threads, about the ultimate takeover of self-driving cars:

https://medium.com/radical-urbanist/...t-c5fe5aa01699
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Old 8th January 2019, 12:23 PM   #887
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Originally Posted by bruto View Post
An interesting update on the basic question that comes up in this and other similar threads, about the ultimate takeover of self-driving cars:



https://medium.com/radical-urbanist/...t-c5fe5aa01699
Sounds like someone who is a proponent of urban cycling and wants to see resources poured into that rather than any meaningful examination of current data on autonomous technology in cars.
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Old 9th January 2019, 09:28 AM   #888
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People get killed by drivers who smoke pot every day. Banning SD cars will omly make the problem worse.
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Old 9th January 2019, 09:38 AM   #889
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Self driving car kills robot.

https://www.facebook.com/thedailysho...7635175753232/
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Old 9th January 2019, 09:40 AM   #890
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Originally Posted by fagin View Post
That's a publicity stunt. That company pulled that same kind of crap before.
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Old 9th January 2019, 11:15 AM   #891
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Don't care. I still laughed.
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Old 9th January 2019, 12:38 PM   #892
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Originally Posted by mattobrien85 View Post
People get killed by drivers who smoke pot every day. Banning SD cars will omly make the problem worse.
The article I cited certainly did not advocate banning SD cars, coming as it does from a major developer of them. What it does mention is the concern many of us have had and expressed over the prediction made by some that totally driverless cars would become mandatory. Partly on the grounds that there will always be situations and places where it's impossible to do safely, or wildly overexpensive, and partly on the grounds that the huge cost of development and implementation of the vehicles and the infrastructure would be better spent on other forms of transit. This article seems to agree with that. It's not a call to ban self driving cars or even to curtail their development.
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Old 10th January 2019, 03:07 AM   #893
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Originally Posted by bruto View Post
The article I cited certainly did not advocate banning SD cars, coming as it does from a major developer of them. What it does mention is the concern many of us have had and expressed over the prediction made by some that totally driverless cars would become mandatory. Partly on the grounds that there will always be situations and places where it's impossible to do safely, or wildly overexpensive, and partly on the grounds that the huge cost of development and implementation of the vehicles and the infrastructure would be better spent on other forms of transit. This article seems to agree with that. It's not a call to ban self driving cars or even to curtail their development.


The major alternative put forward is cycling, which will only ever be a suitable alternative to cars for a minority of the population in some situations.
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Old 10th January 2019, 08:23 AM   #894
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
The major alternative put forward is cycling, which will only ever be a suitable alternative to cars for a minority of the population in some situations.
I live in a town which is very bicycle-friendly, which is good But this is re-enforced by a very powerful pro-bicycle lobby that is IMO is near cult like. Their central principle is that cars are evil and they actively seek to force people away from the evil of driving into their true religion of cycling by using their political power more and more to arrange streets, parking, etc. to make it extremely unpleasant or impossible for people to drive.

I am not against the concept of diminishing unnecessary driving, but I wish the pro-bicycle cult showed some sign of realizing just how many people there are in town who are too old or physically frail to cycle. Not to mention transporting large packages, etc.
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Old 10th January 2019, 08:26 AM   #895
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
The major alternative put forward is cycling, which will only ever be a suitable alternative to cars for a minority of the population in some situations.
And not in the Canadian winter.
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Old 10th January 2019, 09:18 AM   #896
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It's important, I think, to remember that the article cited is not by the president of Waymo, whose observation of the limitation of self driving cars is what I was most interested in. The writer of the article goes off on a bike tangent that I think is unfortunately one-sided.

In any case, I put the article forward because I think it an interesting counterpoint to some arguments we've heard (the most obvious from the now-banned Joey McGee) that assert that in the foreseeable future we will see only driverless cars, and that driverless cars, even without steering wheels, will be mandated.

I've argued in the past that out here in the boonies driverless cars will just not work, and also that in some places where they might they won't solve the issues that our dependence on cars have produced: congestion, pollution and limited access, and it's interesting to me to see someone who is clearly invested in the improvement of autonomous vehicles making a similar observation.
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Old 10th January 2019, 10:19 AM   #897
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Originally Posted by Giordano View Post
Their central principle is that cars are evil and they actively seek to force people away from the evil of driving into their true religion of cycling by using their political power more and more to arrange streets, parking, etc. to make it extremely unpleasant or impossible for people to drive.
Same in my city. We are a municipality historically governed by liberal Democrats, doing their best in one of the reddest states in the Union. The city wants to be friendly to bicycles and pedestrians, blissfully indifferent to the fact that it's cold and snowy six months out of the year.

Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
And not in the Canadian winter.
Or a Utah winter. Reference the above-noted snow and cold temperatures. But the red state government is extremely friendly to businesses that dump tons of pollutants into our air, and hostile to any legislation to do anything meaningful about it. They'd rather stifle their citizens than "innovation." Also six months out of the year, our inverted temperatures trap these pollutants close to the ground. Our media blares constant warnings of unsafe air, reminding us to limit our outdoor exertion. So even healthy, young people aren't dumb enough to brave the snowdrifts and frigid air to suck lungfuls of industrial pollutants while biking to and fro.

My street was chosen to be a pilot for hard-curbed bike lanes, which I'll go into detail about if asked. This street connects downtown to the university. The problem is that if you want to ride up to attend classes, you have to climb a hill that straddles the Wasatch fault. In the space of two blocks, the elevation climbs 200 feet as you go from the lower techtonic plate to the upper one. If you go one block to the south, or two blocks to the north, the slope is much gentler. That's where the bikers actually ride. No casual commuters are going to first-gear it up that hill breathing air you can feel against your teeth.

The best option for our downtown area is not civil engineering designed to force people to leave their cars at home and ride bikes through soups of factory emissions. What would work for our downtown are self-driving electric cars.
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Old 6th March 2019, 07:26 AM   #898
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Arizona prosecutor: Uber not liable in deadly crash (but back-up driver may face charges)

https://hotair.com/archives/2019/03/...-face-charges/

So I guess live testing can go on then? Seems an odd ruling, eliminating any Uber responsibility. It seems to me that while the driver was not
paying attention, the vehicle's systems also did not work too well.

Also notes the oddly dark video we were shown, that does not seem to match reality.

I wonder what back up drivers are thinking then? It seems clear that they are probably going to be held totally liable for any crashes, so they
either won't want to be in that position, or they will just end up driving the car themselves most of the time anyway.

If you are going to be held completely liable, then you might as well just drive the car.
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Old 6th March 2019, 07:50 AM   #899
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Originally Posted by LTC8K6 View Post
Arizona prosecutor: Uber not liable in deadly crash (but back-up driver may face charges)

https://hotair.com/archives/2019/03/...-face-charges/

So I guess live testing can go on then? Seems an odd ruling, eliminating any Uber responsibility. It seems to me that while the driver was not
paying attention, the vehicle's systems also did not work too well.

Also notes the oddly dark video we were shown, that does not seem to match reality.

I wonder what back up drivers are thinking then? It seems clear that they are probably going to be held totally liable for any crashes, so they
either won't want to be in that position, or they will just end up driving the car themselves most of the time anyway.

If you are going to be held completely liable, then you might as well just drive the car.
Welll yeah, the driver behind the wheel is the responsible party in every state. But that is what will have to change for truly self driving cars to become reality. Or maybe just once they really are self-driving, then the system WILL be the legal driver? But Uber isn't ready to take that legal responsibility. My insurance costs me $1,000 per year, I wonder what Uber will pay?
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Old 6th March 2019, 08:28 AM   #900
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I'm pretty surprised at the decision. It's my recollection that Uber had switched off a safety mechanism that might have prevented the accident, as it was prone to 'false positives'. Anyway, good luck to them finding drivers to mind their AVs.
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Old 6th March 2019, 08:34 AM   #901
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Uber might be off the hook for criminal charges, but I imagine they are still very vulnerable for a wrongful death lawsuit. It's going to be hard to argue that Uber shouldn't be held liable when the company was product testing on a public roadway.
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Old 6th March 2019, 09:11 AM   #902
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Originally Posted by LTC8K6 View Post
Arizona prosecutor: Uber not liable in deadly crash (but back-up driver may face charges)

https://hotair.com/archives/2019/03/...-face-charges/

So I guess live testing can go on then? Seems an odd ruling, eliminating any Uber responsibility. It seems to me that while the driver was not
paying attention, the vehicle's systems also did not work too well.

Also notes the oddly dark video we were shown, that does not seem to match reality.

I wonder what back up drivers are thinking then? It seems clear that they are probably going to be held totally liable for any crashes, so they
either won't want to be in that position, or they will just end up driving the car themselves most of the time anyway.

If you are going to be held completely liable, then you might as well just drive the car.
I think that's a bad decision.
Originally Posted by GlennB View Post
I'm pretty surprised at the decision. It's my recollection that Uber had switched off a safety mechanism that might have prevented the accident, as it was prone to 'false positives'. Anyway, good luck to them finding drivers to mind their AVs.
Yup
Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
Uber might be off the hook for criminal charges, but I imagine they are still very vulnerable for a wrongful death lawsuit. It's going to be hard to argue that Uber shouldn't be held liable when the company was product testing on a public roadway.
I'd think that in the UK, one could easily make a case against them under the Health and Safety at work act - which can have quite severe personal implications for the directors of the company.

The person who was nominally in charge of the car was supposed to supervise the car and only intervene when something went wrong. That is a recipe for disaster. It takes me quite a lot of effort to concentrate in an hour's meeting, especially if I am not contributing. Being in a car and not intervening for, say 90-minutes must be mind-numbingly boring. It would be almost impossible to be ready to respond in time for that length of time, whereas, it could be quite easy for someone driving to be able to concentrate for that length of time.
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Old 6th March 2019, 11:58 AM   #903
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There may have been a legal reasoning behind Uber's decision to test in Arizona. Versus Massachusetts- or England.
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Old 6th March 2019, 05:31 PM   #904
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Originally Posted by jimbob View Post
I think that's a bad decision.

Yup


I'd think that in the UK, one could easily make a case against them under the Health and Safety at work act - which can have quite severe personal implications for the directors of the company.

The person who was nominally in charge of the car was supposed to supervise the car and only intervene when something went wrong. That is a recipe for disaster. It takes me quite a lot of effort to concentrate in an hour's meeting, especially if I am not contributing. Being in a car and not intervening for, say 90-minutes must be mind-numbingly boring. It would be almost impossible to be ready to respond in time for that length of time, whereas, it could be quite easy for someone driving to be able to concentrate for that length of time.

I'd have one foot hovering over the brake and a hand an inch from the wheel the entire time. I guess a person would get used to it, maybe pretty quickly, but I know computers and programming and it would take a lot for me (I think) to feel comfortable in one as a tester.

Are these companies going to allow (I'd say it should be mandated) the cars to track each other within a certain radius and read important data from each other in order to make traffic more efficient?

For instance, you really shouldn't need traffic lights if all cars were SD. You could move through an intersection barely missing the other cars, knowing that your car would not hit another one because it was aware of what the other cars were doing.

I don't think it's enough for the cars simply to react to each other without some sharing of data.
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Old 6th March 2019, 06:10 PM   #905
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Originally Posted by mgidm86 View Post
For instance, you really shouldn't need traffic lights if all cars were SD. You could move through an intersection barely missing the other cars, knowing that your car would not hit another one because it was aware of what the other cars were doing.
That will cause people to crap and piss and vomit because of uncontrollable terror. Also people won't be able to prevent knee-jerk instinctual reactions like slamming the brakes and swerving the steering wheel. Our minds and bodies won't trust a robot car in those close situations. So either we can't have any controls or we need to ride blindfolded.

I'm talking about close traffic encounters where there won't be a collision but the passenger is convinced that there will be. These robot cars will need to drive just like we do or else everyone riding inside will be terrified.
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Old 6th March 2019, 07:18 PM   #906
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Only until we get used to it.
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Old 7th March 2019, 02:55 PM   #907
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Haven't read this entire thread but haven't seen any posts citing statistics about number of hours driven by self driving cars and number of accidents. Accidents where the blame can be attributed to the poor response or decision by the SD car that is.

The statistics should then be compared to those of other cars with humans in control. Only after this kind of study can a meaningful conclusion be made about the safety of SD cars.
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Old 7th March 2019, 05:11 PM   #908
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The current problem is the kind of roads etc. where self driving cars are tested.

It's possible to generate millions of miles of testing, on freeways, in perfect visibility, where all the car has to do is stay in its own lane, and keep a safe distance from the vehicle in front...

However, this can't really be extrapolated to the circumstances where most vehicle collisions occur. (Poor lighting, unmanaged intersections, loose surface, road damage, rain, snow, etc.)

Similarly making comparisons between brand new cars, with fully functioning braking systems vs collisions caused by poorly maintained cars, is problematic at best.

We've seen surprising circumstances, like a car trying to force its way past a stationary bus, cars driving into trucks (at low and high speed), a car that identifies a pedestrian crossing the road and then driving through her...

These things are somewhat disquieting.

Recent information about machine vision struggling to identify people with darker skin, because those people reflect less light, is also troubling.

I would really like to see statistics compiled that clearly identify the road and driving conditions managed by self-driving cars.

Unfortunately, those statistics are currently only collected for vehicle collisions, not for safe journeys, so it will be a long time before we can make meaningful comparisons.
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Old 11th March 2019, 05:21 AM   #909
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
Only until we get used to it.


Yeah, this. I was recently taking a tour bus through Vietnam, where traffic pretty much already involves hundreds of "traffic encounters where there won't be a collision but the passenger is convinced that there will be". Sure, I was freaked out, but the Vietnamese just took it all in stride, because to them it was normal.
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Old 12th March 2019, 03:24 PM   #910
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Originally Posted by Horatius View Post
Yeah, this. I was recently taking a tour bus through Vietnam, where traffic pretty much already involves hundreds of "traffic encounters where there won't be a collision but the passenger is convinced that there will be". Sure, I was freaked out, but the Vietnamese just took it all in stride, because to them it was normal.

Same thing in Thailand. I always advised others if they were travelling by bus, to make sure they didn't have a view out the front window. Buses are involved in many accidents in Thailand and the Thais just take this in their stride also.
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Old 13th March 2019, 01:55 AM   #911
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Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
Haven't read this entire thread but haven't seen any posts citing statistics about number of hours driven by self driving cars and number of accidents. Accidents where the blame can be attributed to the poor response or decision by the SD car that is.

The statistics should then be compared to those of other cars with humans in control. Only after this kind of study can a meaningful conclusion be made about the safety of SD cars.
Generally such statistics are measured in miles (or kilometers) driven rather than hours.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transp..._United_States

Quote:
The 2013 U.S. rate of 7.1 road fatalities per 1 billion vehicle-km is about double the 2013 rate in Sweden, which was 3.5 road fatalities per 1 billion vehicle-km.
As of October of last year, Waymo had driven 10 million miles in testing. (About 16 million kilometers). On average, with human drivers in the United States, there would be about 0.1 fatality for that distance. What it means is that we don't really have enough data to make a meaningful comparison, but even a single death for autonomous vehicles would mean they are less safe on average than human drivers.

Autonomous vehicles really need to drive several billion miles first, before a meaningful comparison can be made. Right now they are logging about 1 million/month.
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Old 13th March 2019, 09:52 AM   #912
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Originally Posted by Puppycow View Post
Generally such statistics are measured in miles (or kilometers) driven rather than hours.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transp..._United_States



As of October of last year, Waymo had driven 10 million miles in testing. (About 16 million kilometers). On average, with human drivers in the United States, there would be about 0.1 fatality for that distance. What it means is that we don't really have enough data to make a meaningful comparison, but even a single death for autonomous vehicles would mean they are less safe on average than human drivers.

Autonomous vehicles really need to drive several billion miles first, before a meaningful comparison can be made. Right now they are logging about 1 million/month.
Miles might be the usual statistic, but hours is probably a better metric in this case. Three hundred miles on a free-flowing motorway is not the same as three hundred miles in stop start commuter traffic.
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