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Old 11th January 2019, 09:19 AM   #601
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
No, the joke wasn't published here. An alleged summary of the alleged joke was posted here.
It is not an "alleged" summary. It is the joke. Patel has done the joke before. It is the only joke he does about black and gay men.

The issue for Patel was that SJWs don't listen to ideas (words in context), their brains are turned off to rational thought. What their brains are turned on to are trigger words and when they hear enough, regardless of context, they go into full "offence taken" mode.
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Old 11th January 2019, 09:22 AM   #602
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Originally Posted by Ron_Tomkins View Post
It is really interesting, though, because I'm realizing through this conversation that there's a group of people for whom language has this almost Religious Sacred connotation. So, using certain words like "black", "gay", etc, is sacrilegious. Or then, using the "wrong definition" of a word (like "triggered") is also a no-no. There's this very dysfunctional attitude toward language as if language was this Sacred thing you're not supposed to play around with. It's a very conservative and, frankly, plain dumb way of dealing with language.
I think in many instances the people who do this with language do so because they have nothing left to argue. Their points have been debunked but they just can't let go.
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Old 11th January 2019, 09:22 AM   #603
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Originally Posted by Ron_Tomkins View Post
It is really interesting, though, because I'm realizing through this conversation that there's a group of people for whom language has this almost Religious Sacred connotation. So, using certain words like "black", "gay", etc, is sacrilegious. Or then, using the "wrong definition" of a word (like "triggered") is also a no-no. There's this very dysfunctional attitude toward language as if language was this Sacred thing you're not supposed to play around with. It's a very conservative and, frankly, plain dumb way of dealing with language.
I won't comment, being a proponent of narrow definitions myself, even though I fall prey to the same issues I complain about.
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Old 11th January 2019, 09:25 AM   #604
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Originally Posted by GnaGnaMan View Post
Insulting people is illegal in much of the world. The protection of honor is recognised as a human right. It is a curious deficiency of english law that this protection is missing.
Insulting people is not illegal in very many places. Slander is but that is different from a mere insult.
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Old 11th January 2019, 09:26 AM   #605
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The sheer, vast number of discussions, from internet to real world, from minor to major, from esoteric to precise, from theoretical to pragmatic, that have been ruined by this growing idea that language is the tail that wags the dog that is reality has grown frankly terrifying.
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Old 11th January 2019, 10:01 AM   #606
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Originally Posted by Lambchops View Post
Without their precious persecution complex, the right wingers have nothing.

"I'm being oppressed!". Laughable.

The free market has decided that your so called "jokes" just aren't funny. Deal with it, snowflakes.
Patel's not a right winger.

And for the last couple days, there haven't really been any "right wingers" with a stake in this thread at all. The people you're disparaging are all on the left.
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Old 11th January 2019, 11:03 AM   #607
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
A pointless distinction. There is no disagreement as to the nature of the joke. You've still not shown any.
There is disagreement, and I've linked to two versions of the joke. Your dishonesty becomes very obvious when you leave that out when you quote me. You want to keep on pretending, and you're gaslighting!
http://www.internationalskeptics.com...6#post12560056

Quote:
Then you are arguing for a contradiction. Do you think that is rational?

Well hopefully now it's cleared up, yes?

Sorry, "I know you are but what am I?" is not a valid argument.

Whatever. Go on pretending. I think that most people - with the obvious exception of qayak, in this case - probably get it, and if they don't, I don't care enough to worry about it.
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Old 11th January 2019, 11:11 AM   #608
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Originally Posted by qayak View Post
It is not an "alleged" summary. It is the joke. Patel has done the joke before. It is the only joke he does about black and gay men.

The issue for Patel was that SJWs don't listen to ideas (words in context), their brains are turned off to rational thought. What their brains are turned on to are trigger words and when they hear enough, regardless of context, they go into full "offence taken" mode.

So it is the joke?! Wow! And there's no difference between this retelling of the alleged joke and the one in the OP?
And if Patel's done a joke before, he couldn't possibly have changed anything? He will tell the exact same joke the exact same way every time?
However, you're probablyright about certain people's brains being "turned off to rational thought," but I don't think that they're SJWs ...
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Old 11th January 2019, 11:15 AM   #609
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
There is disagreement, and I've linked to two versions of the joke.
It's THE SAME JOKE regardless. Did you really think I was refering to exact wording?

Quote:
Your dishonesty becomes very obvious when you leave that out when you quote me.
You completely lost track of the conversation, missed the point entirely, and now are trying to rationalise that by blaming me. No one's trying to gaslight you. I'm talking about the content of the joke, not the exact wording. There is no disagreement on the point and structure of the joke, and thus there's no one with a serious claim that it could ever be racist. Hence why theprestige said the outrage wasn't about racism at all, but about far-left power dynamics fantasies.

So what's "obvious" is apparently due to confusion on your part. Maybe you should be more careful before you start accusing people of being responsible for your own failings.

Quote:
Whatever. Go on pretending. I think that most people - with the obvious exception of qayak, in this case - probably get it, and if they don't, I don't care enough to worry about it.
Stop projecting. If you intent do discuss honestly, start doing so, but stop treating others like punching bags just because you're not getting your way. And you're still pretending like everybody who's NOT participating in this discussion somehow would agree with you -- jabba-style!
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Old 11th January 2019, 11:19 AM   #610
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
There is disagreement, and I've linked to two versions of the joke. Your dishonesty becomes very obvious when you leave that out when you quote me. You want to keep on pretending, and you're gaslighting!
http://www.internationalskeptics.com...6#post12560056
There are not two versions of the joke.

Your feeling that your thinking is different from reality has nothing to do with anyone gaslighting you. . .
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Old 11th January 2019, 12:03 PM   #611
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I flippin' hate the term "gaslighting*" Apparently at some point disagreeing with someone became a form of psychological warfare.

*As it is now commonly used, I know the history of the term before anyone "Well asckshualllies" me.
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Old 11th January 2019, 12:06 PM   #612
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
I flippin' hate the term "gaslighting*" Apparently at some point disagreeing with someone became a form of psychological warfare.
I almost posted that. It's just one more word that people have picked up while internetting, and are repeating without really understanding what it means. Like a child repeating words they hear from the adults regardless of whether the situation is correct for it. Amazing how many childlike behaviours we keep well into adulthood. Myself included.
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Old 11th January 2019, 12:33 PM   #613
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Now you apologize, since giving offense is something you try to avoid, and regret when you do it?
That wasn't an apology but otherwise yes.
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Old 11th January 2019, 12:36 PM   #614
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
I almost posted that. It's just one more word that people have picked up while internetting, and are repeating without really understanding what it means. Like a child repeating words they hear from the adults regardless of whether the situation is correct for it.
I've opined before that skeptics/rationalist spent so long in the early days of the internet reference things like logical fallacies, bad argumentatives, and other similar concepts in discussions we created a petard to be hoisted up by, which is why now "I call your argument a bad name, therefore I win" is such a popular tactic.

We over-used them as descriptive terms and now they are just magic words invoked like spells.
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Old 11th January 2019, 12:37 PM   #615
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Originally Posted by qayak View Post
Insulting people is not illegal in very many places. Slander is but that is different from a mere insult.
Source, please.
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Old 11th January 2019, 12:41 PM   #616
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Just words...
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Old 11th January 2019, 12:52 PM   #617
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Originally Posted by GnaGnaMan View Post
That wasn't an apology but otherwise yes.
Let me understand: Giving offense is something you try to avoid. You regret doing it. But when you do it, you won't apologize?
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Old 11th January 2019, 12:55 PM   #618
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
I've opined before that skeptics/rationalist spent so long in the early days of the internet reference things like logical fallacies, bad argumentatives, and other similar concepts in discussions we created a petard to be hoisted up by, which is why now "I call your argument a bad name, therefore I win" is such a popular tactic.

We over-used them as descriptive terms and now they are just magic words invoked like spells.
A good way to put it, yes.
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Old 11th January 2019, 01:01 PM   #619
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Let me understand: Giving offense is something you try to avoid. You regret doing it.
I aspire to that but I fall short.

Quote:
But when you do it, you won't apologize?
I do apologize.
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Old 11th January 2019, 01:12 PM   #620
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You guys understand that no offense was taken, right?
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Old 11th January 2019, 01:17 PM   #621
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
You guys understand that no offense was taken, right?
Yes, otherwise I would have apologized.
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Old 11th January 2019, 01:17 PM   #622
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Originally Posted by GnaGnaMan View Post
Yes, otherwise I would have apologized.
Apologised? Rather, you'd have a duel on your hands!
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Old 11th January 2019, 01:39 PM   #623
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Apologised? Rather, you'd have a duel on your hands!
All the more reason to apologize!

Some ultra-conservative student fraternities in Germany and surrounding countries keep the old duelling traditions alive.
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Old 11th January 2019, 01:41 PM   #624
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This entire thread seems like a really, really, really wordy way to say "People disagree on what things you should apologize for."
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Old 11th January 2019, 01:45 PM   #625
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Patel's not a right winger.

And for the last couple days, there haven't really been any "right wingers" with a stake in this thread at all. The people you're disparaging are all on the left.
The discussion is SJW on SJW violence.
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Old 11th January 2019, 01:58 PM   #626
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Originally Posted by qayak View Post
Insulting people is not illegal in very many places. Slander is but that is different from a mere insult.
In fact, slander and libel tend to be civil matters in the US and UK whereas in a lot of countries SOME forms of insult are criminalized. The vast majority of countries in fact do criminalize SOME forms of insult, although in some cases these are restricted to insults against the government, monarchs (alive or dead), religious figures. In my opinion these are preposterous laws despite their popularity. There are some countries which arguably have even worse laws. I was pretty shocked and sursprised by the laws in Japan and South Korea which can even have jail terms for publicly insulting people. Also, whereas in the US and the UK, stating truths is a defence against the civil charge of slander or libel (I believe the plaintiff has to demonstrate the falseness and malicious intent in the US and the defendant has to prove the truth of the statement in the UK), in some countries, merely harming the reputation of someone EVEN IF the statements are true can be prosecuted by law and result in a jail sentence.

All such laws are, in my humble opinion, insane.
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"Evolution and Ethics" T.H. Huxley (1893)
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Old 11th January 2019, 02:02 PM   #627
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
I've opined before that skeptics/rationalist spent so long in the early days of the internet reference things like logical fallacies, bad argumentatives, and other similar concepts in discussions we created a petard to be hoisted up by, which is why now "I call your argument a bad name, therefore I win" is such a popular tactic.

We over-used them as descriptive terms and now they are just magic words invoked like spells.
So what you’re saying is....
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"Evolution and Ethics" T.H. Huxley (1893)
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Old 11th January 2019, 02:07 PM   #628
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
This entire thread seems like a really, really, really wordy way to say "People disagree on what things you should apologize for."
I think the whole reaction and counter-reaction has been blown out of proportion, really.

I mean, ultimately, Patel wins from this. Few people had heard from him before, he still got paid for his set, he probably has new material. Similarly, the people who pulled the plug on his set win because they have done the Lord’s work of confronting evil or “inappropriateness” on stage and ended one man’s attempt to “speak to” or Asiasplain or heterosplain the black gay experience.

So it’s win-win! Yay!
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"Evolution and Ethics" T.H. Huxley (1893)
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Old 11th January 2019, 02:21 PM   #629
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Originally Posted by angrysoba View Post
The discussion is SJW on SJW violence.
In this SJW/point scoring, call-out culture its turtles all the way down. There will always be someone more offended and more marginalized than the next.

It's only a matter of time before they start consuming themselves on college campuses.
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Old 11th January 2019, 02:33 PM   #630
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Originally Posted by Tony99 View Post
In this SJW/point scoring, call-out culture its turtles all the way down. There will always be someone more offended and more marginalized than the next.

It's only a matter of time before they start consuming themselves on college campuses.
Pretty sure it's already started.
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Old 11th January 2019, 04:23 PM   #631
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Originally Posted by GnaGnaMan View Post
All the more reason to apologize!

Some ultra-conservative student fraternities in Germany and surrounding countries keep the old duelling traditions alive.
Well as the Romans discovered there's just nothing to do with Germanic barbarians.
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Old 11th January 2019, 04:25 PM   #632
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Originally Posted by angrysoba View Post
All such laws are, in my humble opinion, insane.
Assuming you mean aside from slander laws, which compensate someone for something that could have seriously damaged their lives, I agree.
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Old 11th January 2019, 04:50 PM   #633
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The way I see it, the crime is not in the insult, but in the fraud. Call a man a mother ****** to his face, and that's free speech.

Put it about that the man is involved in an incestuous relationship with his own mother, harming his reputation and his business, and that's a form of fraud that calls for sanction of the fraudster and restitution to his victim.
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Old 12th January 2019, 01:05 AM   #634
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Assuming you mean aside from slander laws, which compensate someone for something that could have seriously damaged their lives, I agree.
As far as I know, even slander is not a criminal offence in the UK and US but a civil offence. I don’t think slander should be criminalized.
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Old 12th January 2019, 03:31 AM   #635
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Originally Posted by GnaGnaMan View Post
Insulting people is illegal in much of the world. The protection of honor is recognised as a human right. It is a curious deficiency of english law that this protection is missing.
Okay, that's fine, but a couple of points.

First, and the minor point, I'm from Canada, and unless I am very misinformed I'm quite confident that what he was doing wasn't illegal where he was doing it. So if you object to it it can't be on the basis of either his lack of power to do so or the illegality of his behaviour, it must be on some other basis.

Second, and this is far more important: that anecdote was only an attempt to illustrate the point that sometimes people can do things that we can consider wrong in spite of their having both the power to do them and their actions being legal. Before we go into the details of any particular example, do you actually disagree with that?

ETA: And to be clear, I am not attempting here to say that the organisers of the event were wrong in kicking him off the stage. I honestly am not even sure where I stand on that question at this point. I do have strong feelings about the subjects that are coming up in this thread, but I do think that there are some circumstances where I'd kick someone off my stage if I was organising an event, and while Patel didn't (I don't think) reach that, I can see that in some versions of what happened there might be justification for his removal.
So, please respond to my post in the spirit in which it is written, which is really only about the underlying issue of whether or not there's even a discussion to be had, not attempting to give some conclusion to that discussion.
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Old 12th January 2019, 08:18 AM   #636
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Originally Posted by angrysoba View Post
As far as I know, even slander is not a criminal offence in the UK and US but a civil offence. I don’t think slander should be criminalized.
Yes, you are correct. My bad.
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Old 12th January 2019, 09:53 AM   #637
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
This entire thread seems like a really, really, really wordy way to say "People disagree on what things you should apologize for."
Yes. And that is at the crux of a lot of complex problems in human interactions.
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Old 12th January 2019, 06:15 PM   #638
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
I flippin' hate the term "gaslighting*" Apparently at some point disagreeing with someone became a form of psychological warfare.
Actually, we know when that point was, around 2013-14. In 1996 the number of politically left leaning professors in universities outnumbered right leaning professors 2:1. In psychology the ratio was higher, 4:1. Over the next 15 years the numbers went up, and up, and in 2016 the ratio was 17:1.

In 2013-14 it was first noticed that it was students, not faculty who were demanding speakers be banned from campus. Students made their complaints based on safety so universities were forced to respond. That's when you see the beginning of all these new words, safe-space, triggered, etc.

There is a group of professors who believe that it is time for universities to decide which path they are going to take, social justice, or truth. The two are incompatible. SJ relies on a homogeneous community of like minded thinkers who must follow an agreed upon dogma. Truth relies on a diverse community of many viewpoints who are willing to attack the work of others. It's the only way to overcome confirmation bias.

It can't happen soon enough in my view.
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Old 12th January 2019, 06:24 PM   #639
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
I flippin' hate the term "gaslighting*" Apparently at some point disagreeing with someone became a form of psychological warfare.

*As it is now commonly used, I know the history of the term before anyone "Well asckshualllies" me.
I asckuallie discovered a really interesting example of gaslighting when I was reading Roald Dahl's The Twits, recently.

In the story about a horrible married couple called The Twits, Mr Twit totally gaslights his wife by adding a thin disc of wood to the end of Mrs Twit's walking stick on a daily basis to make her think she is shrinking.
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"Evolution and Ethics" T.H. Huxley (1893)
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Old 12th January 2019, 07:52 PM   #640
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Originally Posted by angrysoba View Post
In the story about a horrible married couple called The Twits, Mr Twit totally gaslights his wife by adding a thin disc of wood to the end of Mrs Twit's walking stick on a daily basis to make her think she is shrinking.
That's gaslighting? I thought it was just a great practical joke!
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