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Old 13th December 2018, 08:02 AM   #41
SuburbanTurkey
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Originally Posted by Olmstead View Post

Also, look around you. There's an obesity epidemic and many people are ridiculously unhealthy, while all the vegans I know look 10 years younger than they are (anecdotal, I know). My point is, health really isn't much of an argument when too much meat is literally killing people.
I wouldn't be so sure that veganism would impact obesity rates that much. Veganism is a fairly niche dietary choice. I think a lot of people are attracted to veganism as they see it as a healthy lifestyle, so there's a good bit of self-selection there. People who are interested in eating healthy, be it a vegan diet or any other conscientious diet, are less likely to be obese. It just so happens that many vegans are also people who are more health conscious.

If veganism becomes more generally popular, then the motivations of the people practicing veganism will become more varied. If people are motivated for non-health reasons to become vegans (say, climate change), I don't see any reason why they wouldn't continue unhealthy eating habits that are vegan compliant.

There is plenty of calorie dense, delicious vegan food that people could easily overeat and remain obese. Fried starches, alcohol, and sweets are all vegan. If veganism became more popular, than vegan junk food would become a larger and larger industry. Veganism won't change people, people will change veganism.
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Old 13th December 2018, 08:02 AM   #42
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Originally Posted by varwoche View Post
In which case, still, challenge the argument. Challenging motives serves no positive purpose (except for extreme circumstances which would be a massive derail if I expanded). We all complain about vapid threads that consist mostly of neenering. Challenging someone's motives tends to lead to that.
The two aren't mutually-exclusive. You can challenge the arguments AND challenge the motivations at the same time.
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Old 13th December 2018, 08:10 AM   #43
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
The two aren't mutually-exclusive. You can challenge the arguments AND challenge the motivations at the same time.
Obviously. We can challenge arguments, challenge motives, create straw men, commit every logical fallacy in the book ... all in the same paragraph. So what? In general, it isn't productive.

I'll consider what you may have to say in response, but in deference to the thread topic I'll attempt not to reply. Sometimes I actually succeed at that.
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Old 13th December 2018, 08:17 AM   #44
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
I read it.
Yes, but I wanted you to see why it was qualified in the way it was.

Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
But the fact is that we evolved to reject it because it's harmful. You can usually infer that we evolved various abilities or functions for a 'reason'.It's not the end-all of the argument, but it can be a useful indicator, which is why I dislike the over-use of saying 'naturalistic fallacy!'.
Yes, but the point is saying "we evolved to do it!" is not a good enough reason. You don't even need to invoke evolution to say you shouldn't ingest ammonia. When someone says, "we evolved to do it!" look at why and whether or not it still applies. Does it apply to veganism? As far as I can see, the jury is out on that one.

Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
It means that we don't have the system to digest everything we need from plant matter so we use, as Joe said, the middle man to get it.
And yet, apparently vegans do live and breathe among us.

Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Nobody said "just".
Actually, I specified that it would be if...

This is why I worded it this way:

Quote:
The appeal to nature is a fallacy if we are arguing that we ought to do something purely based on the fact that we evolved to do something.
I don't think it is true that we have to be omnivores.

Oh, and by the way, don't question my motives. I eat a lot of meat and dairy.
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"Evolution and Ethics" T.H. Huxley (1893)
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Old 13th December 2018, 08:27 AM   #45
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Originally Posted by varwoche View Post
Obviously. We can challenge arguments, challenge motives, create straw men, commit every logical fallacy in the book ... all in the same paragraph. So what? In general, it isn't productive.
I think it can be very useful myself. YMMV.

Quote:
I'll consider what you may have to say in response, but in deference to the thread topic I'll attempt not to reply. Sometimes I actually succeed at that.
Tell me about it.

Originally Posted by angrysoba View Post
Yes, but the point is saying "we evolved to do it!" is not a good enough reason.
I think we've agreed to this enough times already.

Quote:
You don't even need to invoke evolution to say you shouldn't ingest ammonia.
No because in that case the reason is obvious: ammonia is a poison.

Generally we can look at biological functions and find some pretty good cause for their existence. I think we can infer that, by and large, they all have one. So as I said, it's not solid proof, but it's an indication that there's something behind it.

Quote:
And yet, apparently vegans do live and breathe among us.
Yes, but is there something missing to their diet, is the question.

Also, as you said earlier, it's modern technology and methods that allow veganism.

Quote:
Actually, I specified that it would be if...
Yeah but since I already addressed that I wanted to make sure you got that.

Quote:
I don't think it is true that we have to be omnivores.
No, I wouldn't say that it's a necessity either. Just optimal.

Quote:
Oh, and by the way, don't question my motives. I eat a lot of meat and dairy.
Have I questioned your motives? It certainly wasn't my intent.
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Old 13th December 2018, 08:39 AM   #46
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Also, as you said earlier, it's modern technology and methods that allow veganism.
Sure, and we can be glad of modern technology and methods for many things. I think, and hope, that in the future we will see a gradual and then perhaps precipitous decline in livestock meat with the rise lab meat which will certainly be better for the environment. I don't see humans going full vegan for a while, although much of the harms that vegans worry about will also be reduced.

Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Have I questioned your motives? It certainly wasn't my intent.
Nope. But this was as a "full disclosure"-type statement.
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"Evolution and Ethics" T.H. Huxley (1893)
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Old 13th December 2018, 08:42 AM   #47
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Genetically engineered giant lizards. Chop the tail off. It grows back.
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Old 13th December 2018, 08:42 AM   #48
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Originally Posted by angrysoba View Post
Sure, and we can be glad of modern technology and methods for many things. I think, and hope, that in the future we will see a gradual and then perhaps precipitous decline in livestock meat with the rise lab meat which will certainly be better for the environment.
Sure, only good can come of that, assuming the synthetic food works as intended.

Quote:
Nope. But this was as a "full disclosure"-type statement.
Ok, that's a relief.

...and I don't mean a type of carved art.
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Old 13th December 2018, 08:43 AM   #49
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Originally Posted by SusanB-M1 View Post
We evolved as omnivores. That seems to me to be the most sensible way of staying well.
I've tried making this point in other ways, but people refuse to listen. The blood of ten thousand murderers and rapists courses through my veins, yet the state -- a recent human invention found no where else in the animal kingdom -- prevents me from exercising my natural rights.

Quote:
veganism is only possible for those who can afford it.
The same goes for Costco, yet upper-middle class people love to talk about how much they're "saving." It's not like it takes a twelve pounds of grain to produce a single pound of beef.
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Old 13th December 2018, 08:46 AM   #50
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Originally Posted by Roboramma View Post
A meat tax? That would probably work to at least limit consumption.
There's a proposal in the news this morning to tax red meat (processed and unprocessed), but in order to contain the health-care externalities rather than environmental harm. Predictably, dumb, fat Americans are up in arms over it. "Carbs are the REAL problem!"
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Old 13th December 2018, 08:47 AM   #51
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
No, I wouldn't say that it's a necessity either. Just optimal.
I don't think it's necessarily optimal. Actually, some type of an omnivore diet probably is optimal, simply because it's such a broad term, but that isn't really helpful, and no one actually has an optimal diet. Quoting myself:

I never considered evolution a valid point. Evolution doesn't have a special will that will automatically turn an organism into the perfect receptacle for a certain diet. How an organism evolves is dependent on conditions that keep changing, and every organism will only ever move towards a better state to pass on its genes in a certain environment but never reach the ideal state to pass on its genes. In other words, just because we evolved into an organism that does fine as an omnivore (in an environment that is long gone, mind you), doesn't mean that this is the only acceptable diet, or even the best diet. There are many examples in the animal kingdom of terrible inefficiency.
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Old 13th December 2018, 08:50 AM   #52
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Originally Posted by Olmstead View Post
I don't think it's necessarily optimal.
What's with adding words that weren't part of the argument you're responding to?

Quote:
Actually, some type of an omnivore diet probably is optimal, simply because it's such a broad term, but that isn't really helpful, and no one actually has an optimal diet.
Again, you're changing my argument in response to it. I didn't say that anyone had an optimial diet, I said that omnivorous was the optimal solution compared to the alternatives. You're right, that's broad. So? It's still better than eating only meat or only veggies, so your objection isn't very useful.

Quote:
Quoting myself:
Tell that to a creationist.
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Old 13th December 2018, 09:06 AM   #53
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
I wouldn't be so sure that veganism would impact obesity rates that much. Veganism is a fairly niche dietary choice. I think a lot of people are attracted to veganism as they see it as a healthy lifestyle, so there's a good bit of self-selection there. People who are interested in eating healthy, be it a vegan diet or any other conscientious diet, are less likely to be obese. It just so happens that many vegans are also people who are more health conscious.

If veganism becomes more generally popular, then the motivations of the people practicing veganism will become more varied. If people are motivated for non-health reasons to become vegans (say, climate change), I don't see any reason why they wouldn't continue unhealthy eating habits that are vegan compliant.

There is plenty of calorie dense, delicious vegan food that people could easily overeat and remain obese. Fried starches, alcohol, and sweets are all vegan. If veganism became more popular, than vegan junk food would become a larger and larger industry. Veganism won't change people, people will change veganism.
I've often said the thing veganism needs is a chain restaurant called "The Fat Vegan," specializing in genuinely good food, regardless of how healthy or sustainable it might be. Because I feel it's worth reiterating that the food sucks. Even vegetarianism you can do a lot with, but vegan food seems to thrive on the suffering. It's modern day asceticism.
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Old 13th December 2018, 09:11 AM   #54
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At the very least can we agree that "not being vegan is reasonable logical or argumentative parallel to climate denial" is... at best not perfect?
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Old 13th December 2018, 09:17 AM   #55
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
What's with adding words that weren't part of the argument you're responding to?
Umm ... sorry ...


Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Again, you're changing my argument in response to it. I didn't say that anyone had an optimial diet, I said that omnivorous was the optimal solution compared to the alternatives. You're right, that's broad. So? It's still better than eating only meat or only veggies, so your objection isn't very useful.
And my point was that this isn't helpful, because the ideal omnivore diet probably only exist theoretically, i.e. something no human ever practiced or ever will. I believe that a modern person that excercises enough and eats a healthy vegan diet will be much healthier than any of our evolutionary ancestors, even though they slowly evolved to make the best use of their resources. You could argue that this person would be healthier if they added some meat to their diet, but whether this is true or not has nothing to do with what our ancestors ate thousands of years ago.
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Old 13th December 2018, 09:18 AM   #56
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
At the very least can we agree that "not being vegan is reasonable logical or argumentative parallel to climate denial" is... at best not perfect?
Indeed. 'Climate change denial' means one denies climate change is occurring. It doesn't mean one who doesn't take particular actions to combat climate change.
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Old 13th December 2018, 09:22 AM   #57
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
Indeed. 'Climate change denial' means one denies climate change is occurring. It doesn't mean one who doesn't take particular actions to combat climate change.
Well, that’s one form. There are others who say, “oh of course the climate is changing, it always does, always has done and will do. It has nothing to do with what WE are doing, though.”
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"Evolution and Ethics" T.H. Huxley (1893)
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Old 13th December 2018, 09:25 AM   #58
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Originally Posted by Olmstead View Post
And my point was that this isn't helpful, because the ideal omnivore diet probably only exist theoretically, i.e. something no human ever practiced or ever will.
Did you not read my post? I told you I'm not talking about the optimal omnivore diet, but comparing omnivore diets to their alternatives.

You're wasting your benefit of the doubt, here.
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Old 13th December 2018, 09:25 AM   #59
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Originally Posted by angrysoba View Post
Well, that’s one form. There are others who say, “oh of course the climate is changing, it always does, always has done and will do. It has nothing to do with what WE are doing, though.”
My point was that not adopting a particular diet to combat climate change doesn't make one a climate change denier.
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Old 13th December 2018, 09:27 AM   #60
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Originally Posted by angrysoba View Post
Well, that’s one form. There are others who say, “oh of course the climate is changing, it always does, always has done and will do. It has nothing to do with what WE are doing, though.”
Well that form isn't the literal title of the OP.
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Old 13th December 2018, 09:29 AM   #61
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
At the very least can we agree that "not being vegan is reasonable logical or argumentative parallel to climate denial" is... at best not perfect?
Wasn't really my point though. It's rather:

Climate change denial = people refusing to consider the idea that animal products are a big problem for reasons of convenience

Also, I'm interested in how this might hamper the possibility of sustainable solutions, just as similar beliefs about the climate (or at times selfish reasons) hampered the development of sustainable energy, etc.

Things kinnda got off topic though ...
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Old 13th December 2018, 09:32 AM   #62
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Originally Posted by Olmstead View Post
I don’t want to discuss whether veganism would be a great way to reduce our impact on the environment. There are many complex factors to consider, and they need to be considered by people that have the requisite background. What I do want to discuss is whether the consumption of animal products is so ingrained in modern society that it hampers our ability to even approach this issue. Cutting down on meat could be the biggest and simplest way for individuals to help the planet, so why is the idea met with such hatred by many? Are people so opposed to the idea of giving up meat that only a unanimous consensus would convince them? Are animal products such an important part of the economy that a serious effort to cut down on them would encounter widespread opposition from powerful groups? Is one reason for the lack of research on the subject that many climate scientists aren’t willing to consider it?

Anyway, umm … discuss.
Why are you talking about veganism instead of vegetarianism? Veganism, as opposed to just vegetarianism, is based not on health, not on the environment, but on a very moral view of the proper relationship between humans and animals. Logic has basically nothing to do with it. If someone doesn't share those moral precepts, there is no logical way to get them to agree to veganism.

So the entire premise of your question is wrong from the start. Veganism is like a religion (in that it centers around strong moral axioms that are in dispute), and you can't discuss religion scientifically.

I'll give you one example of how this plays out: honey. Honey is produced by bees. Bees are necessary for modern agriculture, which even vegans depend upon. It's essentially a byproduct of the production of crops. So none of the environmental arguments against meat apply to honey. And many vegetarians are OK with eating honey. But vegans are not OK with eating honey, because regardless of any environmental effects, it's still exploitation of animals.

So if you want to talk logically about how diet affects climate change, and how to optimize that, the first thing you've got to do is drop any activism for veganism, because advocating for veganism and advocating for minimizing climate change are completely different. They don't have the same premises.
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Old 13th December 2018, 09:33 AM   #63
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There are just too many necessary micro-nutrients in foods to chop any one item off the shopping list.

And so far as evolution, many of us have evolved/mutated to need some of those micronutrients. There are more "essentials" than just the vitamins and amino acids that we knew about when we were growing up. And a bunch of them are "semi-essentail"- some people need them, other make their own. Carnitine is one.

And as others here have pointed out, most vegrants have other ethics involved. Animal rights, need for high fiber diet (intestinal probs?), can't stand the thought of blood (possibly something I'll call menstra-phobia?) And the fact that animal food and grazing land is not fit for better useage.

And how much carbon is sequestered in cattle cud?

So nah, gimme a Big Mac.
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Old 13th December 2018, 10:02 AM   #64
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Originally Posted by Olmstead View Post
Wasn't really my point though. It's rather:

Climate change denial = people refusing to consider the idea that animal products are a big problem for reasons of convenience
But they're not a big problem unless they are in excessive quantities.
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Old 13th December 2018, 10:02 AM   #65
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this is such fun across various fora where there are supposedly critically thinking people. 99% get so insulted about taking meat away from them. It's like meat fogs everything else. I don't mind, but I would like one thing: them killing the pig/calf every week or so with their bare hands, ok, knife (dunno, a family could last with one pig a week, eating only chops)
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Old 13th December 2018, 10:08 AM   #66
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Originally Posted by kayle View Post
this is such fun across various fora where there are supposedly critically thinking people. 99% get so insulted about taking meat away from them. It's like meat fogs everything else. I don't mind, but I would like one thing: them killing the pig/calf every week or so with their bare hands, ok, knife (dunno, a family could last with one pig a week, eating only chops)
Yeah, figure that one out: even reasonable people don't like it when others propose to take something away from them without good reason. Truly, they must be irrational thinkers!

When you're done showing us how morally and intellectually superior you are to the rest of us, how about an argument for veganism that doesn't rely on axioms we don't share?
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Old 13th December 2018, 10:09 AM   #67
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Why are you talking about veganism instead of vegetarianism? Veganism, as opposed to just vegetarianism, is based not on health, not on the environment, but on a very moral view of the proper relationship between humans and animals. Logic has basically nothing to do with it. If someone doesn't share those moral precepts, there is no logical way to get them to agree to veganism.

So the entire premise of your question is wrong from the start. Veganism is like a religion (in that it centers around strong moral axioms that are in dispute), and you can't discuss religion scientifically.

I'll give you one example of how this plays out: honey. Honey is produced by bees. Bees are necessary for modern agriculture, which even vegans depend upon. It's essentially a byproduct of the production of crops. So none of the environmental arguments against meat apply to honey. And many vegetarians are OK with eating honey. But vegans are not OK with eating honey, because regardless of any environmental effects, it's still exploitation of animals.

So if you want to talk logically about how diet affects climate change, and how to optimize that, the first thing you've got to do is drop any activism for veganism, because advocating for veganism and advocating for minimizing climate change are completely different. They don't have the same premises.
Sigh ... veganism and vegetarianism are both loaded words. No, of course I'm not calling for an impossible world. If it's the case that some exploitation is necessary for humans to survive or even the world to survive, then that is an unfortunate necessity. But I'd like to see such harm minimised as much as possible. Perfect veganism doesn't exist, but I consider myself vegan because I try to do the least harm possible and to exploit animals as little as possible, i.e. unless absolutely necessary.

So sure, if it makes you feel better you can replace veganism with "the strictest vegetarianism that is viable".
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Old 13th December 2018, 10:09 AM   #68
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I love the whole "Oh so would you kill the animals yourself?" line.

First of all... yeah I've slaughtered animals before. Not that big of a deal.

Secondly are you gonna go pick fruit with migrant workers?
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Old 13th December 2018, 10:12 AM   #69
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Originally Posted by Olmstead View Post
Sigh ... veganism and vegetarianism are both loaded words. No, of course I'm not calling for an impossible world. If it's the case that some exploitation is necessary for humans to survive or even the world to survive, then that is an unfortunate necessity. But I'd like to see such harm minimised as much as possible. Perfect veganism doesn't exist, but I consider myself vegan because I try to do the least harm possible and to exploit animals as little as possible, i.e. unless absolutely necessary.

So sure, if it makes you feel better you can replace veganism with "the strictest vegetarianism that is viable".
So it IS about the morality of 'harming' animals by farming them, not anything to do with the environment. The latter is just a way to try to justify your way of life to others.
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Old 13th December 2018, 10:19 AM   #70
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Did you not read my post? I told you I'm not talking about the optimal omnivore diet, but comparing omnivore diets to their alternatives.

You're wasting your benefit of the doubt, here.
Sorry, I'm not trying to put words in your mouth. Maybe I misunderstood you.

My point is that an omnivore diet could literally mean anything, from five steaks a day with some celery on the side to a mostly vegan diet with some meat once a month. And my opinion is that there's no evolutionary reason why a healthy vegan diet would be any less healthy than a healthy omnivore diet, or that an average omnivore diet would be any healthier than an average vegan diet. It might be, but evolution isn't a compelling reason why.
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Old 13th December 2018, 10:24 AM   #71
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Originally Posted by Olmstead View Post
My point is that an omnivore diet could literally mean anything, from five steaks a day with some celery on the side to a mostly vegan diet with some meat once a month.
No, it couldn't literally mean anything because it excludes a number of diets which are NOT omnivorous. The fact that there's great variety within omnivorous diets is completely irrelevant. Stop bringing it up.
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Old 13th December 2018, 10:26 AM   #72
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
So it IS about the morality of 'harming' animals by farming them, not anything to do with the environment. The latter is just a way to try to justify your way of life to others.
What? Yes, in the very first paragraph I've explained that this is why I'm vegan. And this is the only way I ever explain the reason for my vegan diet, i.e. minimising the suffering of animals (not that I ever feel the need to justify it).

How reducing animal products would help the environment and the opposition to this idea is a separate issue, and I never pretended otherwise.
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Old 13th December 2018, 10:30 AM   #73
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Originally Posted by kayle View Post
this is such fun across various fora where there are supposedly critically thinking people. 99% get so insulted about taking meat away from them. It's like meat fogs everything else. I don't mind, but I would like one thing: them killing the pig/calf every week or so with their bare hands, ok, knife (dunno, a family could last with one pig a week, eating only chops)
I'm not sure that abattoir workers kill cows and pigs with their bare hands. That would likely cause a bottleneck in the production process, exacerbated by a shortage of abattoir workers.
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Old 13th December 2018, 10:31 AM   #74
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Originally Posted by Olmstead View Post
What? Yes, in the very first paragraph I've explained that this is why I'm vegan. And this is the only way I ever explain the reason for my vegan diet, i.e. minimising the suffering of animals (not that I ever feel the need to justify it).
Well call me crazy but being able and feeling the need to justify one's beliefs is what allows us to question and reevaluate them.

Quote:
How reducing animal products would help the environment and the opposition to this idea is a separate issue, and I never pretended otherwise.
Ok, then. Sorry for the confusion.
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Old 13th December 2018, 10:31 AM   #75
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Yeah, figure that one out: even reasonable people don't like it when others propose to take something away from them without good reason. Truly, they must be irrational thinkers!

When you're done showing us how morally and intellectually superior you are to the rest of us, how about an argument for veganism that doesn't rely on axioms we don't share?
Striving to be as vegan as possible might be the best way for an individual to help prevent climate change?
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Old 13th December 2018, 10:33 AM   #76
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Originally Posted by baron View Post
I'm not sure that abattoir workers kill cows and pigs with their bare hands. That would likely cause a bottleneck in the production process, exacerbated by a shortage of abattoir workers.
Even logistics aside, it's just a blatant appeal to emotions rather than an actual argument. Yes, killing animals harms them. Newsflash: killing plants harms them also, it just doesn't cause them pain. But that's the thing: unless we find some way to completely replace plant and animal food with Star Trek-like coloured cubes, we still have to kill to survive. It sucks, but that's life.

In fact, let's turn this around: Let vegans loose in the wild and wait to see how long it takes for them to kill a porcupine for meat. Let's test how morality withstands reality.
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Old 13th December 2018, 10:35 AM   #77
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Originally Posted by Olmstead View Post
Striving to be as vegan as possible might be the best way for an individual to help prevent climate change?
It's clear that the over-farming of animals is having an effect, but overwhelmingly the problem is fossil fuels. If you want to help prevent climate change (you can't, we're already locked on 2C increase), or at least try to limit its effects, write to your representatives, campaign, march, protest or whatever you need to do to get us rid of coal and gasoline.

Once you've done that, you can claim to have made a difference.
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Old 13th December 2018, 10:41 AM   #78
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Originally Posted by Olmstead View Post
Striving to be as vegan as possible might be the best way for an individual to help prevent climate change?
Not using air-conditioning would do more.
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Old 13th December 2018, 10:45 AM   #79
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
It's clear that the over-farming of animals is having an effect, but overwhelmingly the problem is fossil fuels. If you want to help prevent climate change (you can't, we're already locked on 2C increase), or at least try to limit its effects, write to your representatives, campaign, march, protest or whatever you need to do to get us rid of coal and gasoline.

Once you've done that, you can claim to have made a difference.
But why not do both if it's viable. Certainly that would limit the effects even more? If we're already so far along, why not consider every avenue?

Cutting down on animal products could be just as important as reducing CO2 emissions, but the public awareness about the issue seems decades behind.
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Old 13th December 2018, 10:58 AM   #80
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Even logistics aside, it's just a blatant appeal to emotions rather than an actual argument. Yes, killing animals harms them. Newsflash: killing plants harms them also, it just doesn't cause them pain. But that's the thing: unless we find some way to completely replace plant and animal food with Star Trek-like coloured cubes, we still have to kill to survive. It sucks, but that's life.
And as I say, the best way to improve animal welfare is to opt to buy from ethical, cruelty-free producers, not to go vegan, which is likely to produce the opposite effect. Indeed, animals farmed 'properly' enjoy the best quality of life of any creature on Earth aside from (some) domesticated pets. My major reservation is that they are killed young, which is not a cruelty issue, rather a purely ethical one. I don't feel too guilty exploiting an animal that is well housed and fed, has its medical needs taken care of, is free to roam and has its life ended quickly and painlessly. That latter privilege is not even afforded us humans. It's a sobering fact that practically all animals in the wild die in agony, whether from injury, disease, predation or starvation. Properly farmed, an animal can be spared all of this.

I must add, however, that there is still a lot of barbarism in the industry and this makes it difficult to source meat responsibly. This needs to be cracked down upon.
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