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Old 14th December 2018, 09:58 AM   #161
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Originally Posted by Olmstead View Post
But that's a useless thing to bring up.

"You should just walk to the store that's just 10 minutes away instead of taking the car each time."

"Yeah, but you have a kid, and I have none so shut up."
Moralising is fine when you do it, but not when others point out that based on your own premises there are better solutions still.
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Old 14th December 2018, 10:00 AM   #162
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Post 75:



That is exactly what my all-caps version said.
"Might be" and "is" are not exactly the same. Olmstead is saying it might be. You're accusing him of saying it is.
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Old 14th December 2018, 10:02 AM   #163
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
"Might be" and "is" are not exactly the same.
Let's not play word games, here. As a human being (presumably) you have the ability to read between the lines, and in context. I think Olmstead does think that it's the best way, not that it might be. Otherwise he wouldn't have linked his detractors to climate change deniers right in the thread title, before conversation had even begun.
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Old 14th December 2018, 10:18 AM   #164
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Let's not play word games, here. As a human being (presumably) you have the ability to read between the lines, and in context. I think Olmstead does think that it's the best way, not that it might be. Otherwise he wouldn't have linked his detractors to climate change deniers right in the thread title, before conversation had even begun.
I think that engaging the argument you infer, rather than the argument that was actually presented, is a recipe for needless strife.

Your claim that "is" and "might be" are exactly the same isn't word games. It's just a false claim. You should probably retract it at some point.
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Old 14th December 2018, 10:27 AM   #165
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Moralising is fine when you do it, but not when others point out that based on your own premises there are better solutions still.
Well, my next thread was going to be "Climate change and euthanasia" ...

My point is that today almost all reasonable people are happy to concede that using your car less would help curb climate change but the idea that reducing your meat intake would do the same is met with much more opposition. I don't see why it matters that there might be better ways.
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Old 14th December 2018, 10:28 AM   #166
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
I think that engaging the argument you infer, rather than the argument that was actually presented, is a recipe for needless strife.

Your claim that "is" and "might be" are exactly the same isn't word games. It's just a false claim. You should probably retract it at some point.
Do you mean I should actually retract it, or just probably?
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Old 14th December 2018, 10:29 AM   #167
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Originally Posted by Olmstead View Post
Well, my next thread was going to be "Climate change and euthanasia" ...

My point is that today almost all reasonable people are happy to concede that using your car less would help curb climate change but the idea that reducing your meat intake would do the same is met with much more opposition. I don't see why it matters that there might be better ways.
My comment was not, as you well know, in opposition to the OP but to a post that I keep having to remind people was posted back on page 2.
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Old 14th December 2018, 10:39 AM   #168
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
My comment was not, as you well know, in opposition to the OP but to a post that I keep having to remind people was posted back on page 2.
Fair enough.

How about bringing this somewhat back on track:

Do you think reducing the use of animal products would be a worthwhile avenue to consider in the battle to limit climate change?
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Old 14th December 2018, 10:40 AM   #169
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Originally Posted by Crawtator View Post
I can't help but wonder if this is not actually an anti-carnivore diet slant or an anti-big production of meat slant (or however you might want to phrase that idea). What about the eating of wildlife? More specifically, what about deer? Left unchecked, the population of deer in the US would explode very quickly, leading to very negative consequences such as destruction of crops, more road deaths, and destruction of property.
Um, this is the situation already, the annual hunt is not a slaughter, it does nothing to control the population.
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Old 14th December 2018, 10:41 AM   #170
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Originally Posted by Olmstead View Post
How about bringing this somewhat back on track:
DENIED!

Ok, sure.

Quote:
Do you think reducing the use of animal products would be a worthwhile avenue to consider in the battle to limit climate change?
Absolutely.
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Old 14th December 2018, 10:43 AM   #171
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Originally Posted by SusanB-M1 View Post
We evolved as omnivores. That seems to me to be the most sensible way of staying well. Do you take many supplements? Do you consider the effects on resources, etc when buying and consuming them?
What a bout babies - do you ... ... no, I will not go on. As someone on another forum pointed out, veganism is only possible for those who can afford it.
I passed this by yesterday, veganism is very affordable... it takes effort but is not expensive by any means.
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Old 14th December 2018, 10:52 AM   #172
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
My comment was not, as you well know, in opposition to the OP but to a post that I keep having to remind people was posted back on page 2.

A post that simply restates the "might be" claim from the OP?
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Old 14th December 2018, 11:05 AM   #173
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What is it with vegan products that pretend to be meat? Last month I bought a few of these culinary fraudsters just to see what they were like. 'Chicken' nuggets, some kind of beef burger analogue and a faux sausage are the ones that spring to mind, together with some unpretentious concoctions involving mushroom. These meat impostors were bizarre, though, horrifically fleshy and over-flavoured, like a new form of matter resembling living wicker. I can't say they tasted horrible although I did became more uneasy with each mouthful and subsequently experienced indigestion. I think it's best to either eat meat or not, and in the latter case do a proper job and stay away from things that pretend to be meat but aren't.
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Old 14th December 2018, 11:06 AM   #174
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
A post that simply restates the "might be" claim from the OP?
No. If you bothered to read the post I was responding to, he was talking about his main point, which was not what I was resp---


You know what, after four or five attempts to make one of you understand what I was responding to, I give up.
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Old 14th December 2018, 11:16 AM   #175
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
DENIED!

Ok, sure.



Absolutely.

Okay. Now, my understanding is that climate change denial is to a large extent the result of people refusing to accept facts because they don't want to give up something that they consider important, whether it be cars, their way of life, uncle Fred's coal mining job etc. or the result of businesses trying to protect their profits.

I believe that a diet incorporating less animal products to help the environment is met with similar opposition, both by people in general and by people in the industry, but while the abolition of fossil fuels is promoted by a widespread scientific consensus, the reduction of animal products isn't yet. I think in many ways the public awareness of this issue (and perhaps other issues) is a few decades behind and is doomed to go through the same sluggish process as the acceptance that fossil fuels are a problem, but maybe it wouldn't have to if more people noticed the similarities.
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Old 14th December 2018, 11:18 AM   #176
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Originally Posted by baron View Post
What is it with vegan products that pretend to be meat?
I have rule. If you can take piece of cauliflower, dip in hot sauce, and call it a "Vegetarian Hotwing" I can take a bowl of bacon and friend chicken skin, cover it in ranch dressing, and call it a salad.
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Old 14th December 2018, 11:39 AM   #177
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Yeah, figure that one out: even reasonable people don't like it when others propose to take something away from them without good reason. Truly, they must be irrational thinkers!

When you're done showing us how morally and intellectually superior you are to the rest of us, how about an argument for veganism that doesn't rely on axioms we don't share?
yes, another typical sign. thinking/nagging at vegans/vegeterians that they think they are morally and intellectually superior.
i don't think nothing. I am not even a strict vegeterian, but do eat very little animal products. and I would not kill, I would rather eat dry grain or die from hunger. You would kill, you survive and win, you are superior, wow-wow
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Old 14th December 2018, 11:39 AM   #178
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Originally Posted by baron View Post
What is it with vegan products that pretend to be meat? Last month I bought a few of these culinary fraudsters just to see what they were like. 'Chicken' nuggets, some kind of beef burger analogue and a faux sausage are the ones that spring to mind, together with some unpretentious concoctions involving mushroom. These meat impostors were bizarre, though, horrifically fleshy and over-flavoured, like a new form of matter resembling living wicker. I can't say they tasted horrible although I did became more uneasy with each mouthful and subsequently experienced indigestion. I think it's best to either eat meat or not, and in the latter case do a proper job and stay away from things that pretend to be meat but aren't.

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Old 14th December 2018, 11:39 AM   #179
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
I have rule. If you can take piece of cauliflower, dip in hot sauce, and call it a "Vegetarian Hotwing" I can take a bowl of bacon and friend chicken skin, cover it in ranch dressing, and call it a salad.
For some reason, a cauliflower "hot wings" sound like a perfectly cromulent vegetarian alternative. But a bacon, chicken skin, and ranch dressing "salad" just sounds like someone trying too hard at a game of silly buggers.

Also, you should seriously try cauliflower florets, drizzled with olive oil, sprinkled with spices, and baked on a cookie sheet until lightly brown. They are delicious. A "hot wing" version of that recipe would be pretty neat.
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Old 14th December 2018, 11:44 AM   #180
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superior animals... omnivores. is that really all you have got in the 21th century?
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Old 14th December 2018, 11:47 AM   #181
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
And to be clear I'm not trying to guilt anyone for having kids, saying never have children, or argue that if you have kids you inherently go into some sort of "carbon debt" you have to get out of.

But if your entire argument is a pure utilitarian "Don't do X because it causes Y" that can't start an arbitrary point and all the other stuff you do that causes Y gets ignored.

Either "Reduce CO2" is a sacrosanct goal or it isn't. If it's a goal within context, we have to discuss the context.
A couple of things. First, the argument is at the margin. If a person had a soccer team of kids, drove a Suburban, and ate meat six times a day, then that sucks, but she can't change the past. She can only alter current behavior. Spilled milk and all of that.

Second, different individual consumption patterns will not change anything. I am a childless vegan who drives a low emissions vehicle. My apartment is less than four-hundred square feet. If I had two kids, ate meat, and drove a Hummer, the pollution difference would not only be unnoticeable, it might even be unchanged. Farmers will produce the same amount of meat regardless of whether I breed ten kids or zero; whether I am a vegan or not. Auto-manufacturers will produce the same number of vehicles (even most special ordered Italian super-cars).

Pollution is a collective action problem. And the problem is not population, per se. It's consumption, especially American style consumption (having more kids means having more consumers). I recall an article claiming that if all of earth's 7.5 billion inhabitants lived like Americans, it would be the equivalent of having 72 billion people. Some first world countries like to brag that they're cutting emissions, but they're often just moving manufacturing to the developing world. The increased transportation costs to bring goods to market, and the (likely) lower environmental standards abroad means pollution could (theoretically) increase.

We already have nation-states confronting population, and fertility rates in rich countries have been leveling off. At this point, collectively, one of the most effective ways we can limit pollution is by eating less meat. It will be difficult -- if not impossible -- to get people to go vegan. As noted earlier, Americans refuse to alter their diet for reasons owing to health and vanity, so what hope is there for the Blue Marble? Well, we could get good-doers to go semi-vegetarian. Meatless Mondays, if widely observed, could have a significant impact. I would not mind at all if the hated "SJWs" encouraged/compelled businesses to go meatless on Mondays. I don't give a **** if "virtue-signaling" is involved as long as it works. It would mean less death/animal exploitation, and a slightly more sustainable planet.
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Old 14th December 2018, 11:49 AM   #182
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Originally Posted by kayle View Post
yes, another typical sign. thinking/nagging at vegans/vegeterians that they think they are morally and intellectually superior.
i don't think nothing. I am not even a strict vegeterian, but do eat very little animal products. and I would not kill, I would rather eat dry grain or die from hunger. You would kill, you survive and win, you are superior, wow-wow
The OP specifically mentioned vegans so that's what I'm going with. Ftr, I don't think vegetarians act morally superior because they've been brow beaten too many times as "not serious enough" by the vegans.
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Old 14th December 2018, 11:53 AM   #183
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Originally Posted by kayle View Post
yes, another typical sign. thinking/nagging at vegans/vegeterians that they think they are morally and intellectually superior.
Many of them think they are. Your first post here sure sounded like you were talking down to everyone who disagreed.

Quote:
i don't think nothing. I am not even a strict vegeterian, but do eat very little animal products. and I would not kill, I would rather eat dry grain or die from hunger. You would kill, you survive and win, you are superior, wow-wow
It has NOTHING to do with superiority. It has everything to do with survival. Were you lost in the forest for four days, I'm pretty sure your hunger would overwhelm any first-world, 21st century moral qualms you have about killing other lifeforms.
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Old 14th December 2018, 11:54 AM   #184
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Originally Posted by Olmstead View Post
Okay. Now, my understanding is that climate change denial is to a large extent the result of people refusing to accept facts because they don't want to give up something that they consider important, whether it be cars, their way of life, uncle Fred's coal mining job etc. or the result of businesses trying to protect their profits.
It's my general understanding as well, but I think there's quite a bit of genuine ignorance thrown in there as well, plus a lot of misinformation running around in their own social circles.
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Old 14th December 2018, 11:56 AM   #185
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Originally Posted by kayle View Post
superior animals... omnivores. is that really all you have got in the 21th century?
What has the current year have to do with any of this?

The pro-meat argument is not that we should maximise the amount of meat we use. It's that we should have a balanced diet that includes meat because that's what our biology has evolved to process, and it follows that we live healthier if we 'respect' that biology.

Perhaps if you reacted with less outrage and more reason, you'd have more productive conversations, here.
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Old 14th December 2018, 12:09 PM   #186
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It is best to think of veggie burgers as alternatives, never as a replacement

Even more so with vegetarian 'cheez'
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Old 14th December 2018, 12:35 PM   #187
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One of the actual veggie burgers I tried was a pretty good replacement- for the fries. It was one of those "not supposed to be imitation meat" patties being marketed to the "not even if it has the texture of meat either" vegans.

Somebody up thread brought up the most salient fact- If all of America went vegan, our GHG footprint would only drop by 2%. No wool would mean more plastic fibers, less manure would mean more oil for fertilizer (and there goes the "organic" food industry), no leather would mean more plastic resins for shoes. It's not just the rib-eye we would miss. "Fine Corinthian Vinyl"? No thanks.
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Old 14th December 2018, 12:50 PM   #188
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Originally Posted by Olmstead View Post
Fair enough.

How about bringing this somewhat back on track:

Do you think reducing the use of animal products would be a worthwhile avenue to consider in the battle to limit climate change?
Maybe, sure. If it can be shown that reducing the use of animal products in one area wouldn't just increase the negative impact in another area.

As Casebro mentioned, "No wool would mean more plastic fibers, less manure would mean more oil for fertilizer (and there goes the "organic" food industry), no leather would mean more plastic resins for shoes."
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Old 14th December 2018, 12:56 PM   #189
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
The pro-meat argument is not that we should maximise the amount of meat we use. It's that we should have a balanced diet that includes meat because that's what our biology has evolved to process, and it follows that we live healthier if we 'respect' that biology.
Well, that's a bad, scientifically illiterate argument. It doesn't follow that we will be healthier if we eat what we "evolved to eat", especially when you consider that one of the things we evolved to eat is nothing (and a whole lot of it). We have many and ancient adaptations to long periods of severe privation. Strangely, the "eat what we evolved to eat" crowd seldom puts a nothingburger on the menu. Then there's all the geophagia....

The reality is that we're a work in progress, and natural selection does not seek global optima. Our ancestors ate whatever they could get their hands on, and many of the adaptations we have are of the "This won't kill you immediately anymore" variety. This goes for cultural adaptations as well--smoking meat means you get to preserve your excess food, providing nutrition when it's scarce. It also means you're more likely to die of cancer.

This approach is just ass-backwards in any case. Why rely on evolutionary just-so stories when we have a science of nutrition?
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Old 14th December 2018, 01:53 PM   #190
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Originally Posted by Olmstead View Post
Well, my next thread was going to be "Climate change and euthanasia" ...

My point is that today almost all reasonable people are happy to concede that using your car less would help curb climate change but the idea that reducing your meat intake would do the same is met with much more opposition. I don't see why it matters that there might be better ways.
I think you are conflating a willingness to change with the knowledge of what a change will do.

I have actually been persuaded that reducing my intake of nutrition from animals and their products would reduce the negative impact I have on climate change however I have decided to not give up meat and animal products and will contribute to reduce my impact on climate change in other ways.
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Old 14th December 2018, 02:08 PM   #191
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Originally Posted by mumblethrax View Post
Why rely on evolutionary just-so stories when we have a science of nutrition?
Nutrition science is pretty iffy. We have very little good, reliable data. Too much of it is observational studies which are subject to confounding factors. Very few controlled studies are performed.

In regards to eating meat, we know that meat is an excellent source of protein, with a much better amino acid profile than plant proteins. You may be able to get all the protein you need from plants, but it's easier to do it by including meat. And if you're exercising regularly, including with resistance training, you need a fair amount of protein for best results, a lot more than the RDA. Do you NEED to eat meat in order to accomplish that? Maybe not. But it's certainly easier.
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Old 14th December 2018, 02:11 PM   #192
fuelair
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Originally Posted by Olmstead View Post
Well, my next thread was going to be "Climate change and euthanasia" ...

My point is that today almost all reasonable people are happy to concede that using your car less would help curb climate change but the idea that reducing your meat intake would do the same is met with much more opposition. I don't see why it matters that there might be better ways.
If meat did not taste great - especially smoked/grilled - you might have good results on that, but it does so you are fighting an uphill battle you are unlikely to win .

And as to the car thing, fine IF there is low cost, always available and gets extremely great mileage transportation system that is fast and reliable for pickup and return in your location!!!!!
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Old 14th December 2018, 02:18 PM   #193
fuelair
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Not having kids is the easiest and biggest impact any individual could have.
Excellent point, way too many people do not seem to choose to follow it!!!
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Old 14th December 2018, 02:34 PM   #194
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Nutrition science is pretty iffy.
It's a hell of a lot less iffy than pulling things out of your ass based misunderstandings about natural selection. Given the choice between weak evidence and manifest ********, I'll take the weak evidence.

Quote:
In regards to eating meat, we know that meat is an excellent source of protein, with a much better amino acid profile than plant proteins.
But worse than milk proteins and eggs. That argument implies an ovo-lacto vegetarian diet, and works against eating meat, rather than in favor of it. This is typical of the rigor people bring to even their fallback arguments in favor of eating meat.

Last edited by mumblethrax; 14th December 2018 at 02:36 PM.
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Old 14th December 2018, 02:47 PM   #195
Ziggurat
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Originally Posted by mumblethrax View Post
But worse than milk proteins and eggs. That argument implies an ovo-lacto vegetarian diet, and works against eating meat, rather than in favor of it. This is typical of the rigor people bring to even their fallback arguments in favor of eating meat.
Your own bias is showing. I wasn't arguing about what the perfect diet is, I was arguing about why eating meat can be good for you. Do you get the difference?
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Old 14th December 2018, 02:52 PM   #196
mumblethrax
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Your own bias is showing. I wasn't arguing about what the perfect diet is, I was arguing about why eating meat can be good for you. Do you get the difference?
I'm a vegan--my bias would not be in favor of an ovo-lacto vegetarian diet.

Anyway, this is typically disingenuous. If meat is a better source of protein than plants, and eggs are a better source of protein than meat, then this is not an argument that meat is good for you. Meat would then offer nothing beyond what you can get with eggs and plants (beyond heart disease and cancer).

This is just another face plant in a long line of face plants.
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Old 14th December 2018, 03:42 PM   #197
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Originally Posted by mumblethrax View Post
But worse than milk proteins and eggs. That argument implies an ovo-lacto vegetarian diet, and works against eating meat, rather than in favor of it. This is typical of the rigor people bring to even their fallback arguments in favor of eating meat.
Few people could stomach a daily diet of milk and eggs in any quantity, and even fewer would want to.
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Old 14th December 2018, 03:52 PM   #198
Elagabalus
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Originally Posted by baron View Post
Few people could stomach a daily diet of milk and eggs in any quantity, and even fewer would want to.
Lacto-ovo generally means that you can eat eggs and diary along with a vegetarian diet, i.e. it's not a diet that consists solely of eggs and diary and nothing else. Sadly, that form of vegetarian diet is outlawed by the vegan folks.
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Old 14th December 2018, 04:02 PM   #199
mumblethrax
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Originally Posted by baron View Post
Few people could stomach a daily diet of milk and eggs in any quantity, and even fewer would want to.
Who said anything about a "daily diet of milk and eggs"? That's not what an ovo-lacto vegetarian diet is.
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Old 14th December 2018, 05:06 PM   #200
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In 4.5 years I will be allowed by tax authorities to start pumping out fish that take 1.1 pounds of feed per pound of fish produced. We've selected the area, two bays with no people on the pacific ocean. By incredible coincidence while we were there staying at a village nearby in April we went to make a donation to the school. The principle turned out to be an Uncle of my wife. Boy did that clinch things for site selection.

Each fish consumes 10% more vegetative matter than eliminating meat altogether from your diet.

Beef is around 8:1 so 8 pounds of vegetative matter to produce one pound of beef. The point being that one very insignificant change in behavior can make huge gains in the objective. Changing from beef to fish. Or even to pork or poultry, but the best is fish.

It does not take drastic changes in behavior to accomplish most objectives. We look for where we can get huge gains with small changes in behavior. If you can get 90% of the job done with one little change, and then a drastic change in behavior is required on top of that to only gain 10% more... that makes no sense.

It especially makes no sense for someone to come 90% of the way, and the zealot to tell him no, this is unacceptable, it's 100% or you're wrong...

When you lay down sushemi and sushi quality fish, live and pristine, packed with Omega-3 fatty acids at uniform size on a regular schedule, a fraction the price of beef...

Against dead cow? Show me the cow. This fish is alive.

Against other fish? Two days old in a hold tainted with diesel, with ghastly predator scars and wounds from gill nets and handling, inconsistent sizing...

The Karma, the Zen here is people choosing your product because they love it. Instead of the dead cow. You don't have to guilt-trip them or shame them or give them the holier than thou routine.

Instead, they give you money. And as per Karma/Zen maxim you spend it on whiskey and whores. If you have any kind of spiritual insight, anyway.

Last edited by AlaskaBushPilot; 14th December 2018 at 05:53 PM.
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