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Old 20th December 2018, 06:31 PM   #81
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Originally Posted by baron View Post
It is so embarrassing I can't even watch the news any more. One of the most advanced nations on Earth is unable to prevent a plastic toy from flying about over an airport.
Intelligence agencies are not going to reveal what they know at this stage. However, drone experts are saying this is an industrial drone. The toys in the shops are blocked from going near an airport perimeter and have short battery life. These drones are all together more sophisticated.
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Old 20th December 2018, 06:33 PM   #82
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Originally Posted by fagin View Post
With all the Brexit **** going on, I'm surprised no one has suggested a squadron of Spitfires over here. Them was the days....
Don't diss the Spitfire.
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Old 20th December 2018, 06:35 PM   #83
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Originally Posted by RolandRat View Post
I get it that drones are small targets but do they really fly/manoeuvre so quickly a competent gunman couldn't shoot the thing out of the sky? I cannot believe that a couple of toys can shut down a major airport for so long, it's ridiculous.
The Royal Family are skilled in clay pigeon shooting and pheasant hunting, so maybe we should get Princes William and Harry to help out.
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Old 20th December 2018, 06:37 PM   #84
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Originally Posted by baron View Post
It's a bizarre situation. Either the operation is being overseen by the cast of Airplane! or there's something we're not being told. Police helicopter cameras can pin-point a mouse from five miles away, in the dark, yet apparently observing an object the size of a mini-fridge hovering 200 yards away in broad daylight is too demanding.
Of course there is a news 'blackout'. We can be sure that in the background the three police forces, army and the MOD will be frantically trying to pinpoint the culprits.
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Old 20th December 2018, 07:10 PM   #85
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Of course there is a news 'blackout'. We can be sure that in the background the three police forces, army and the MOD will be frantically trying to pinpoint the culprits.
#DroningWhileBlack
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Old 21st December 2018, 12:53 AM   #86
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Originally Posted by baron View Post
The trouble is the maximum sentence is five years, and I doubt they would get that as there has been no collision. The authorities have already ruled out terrorism (quite how, given that they have no knowledge whatsoever of the culprits or their motives, is unclear) so I'm unsure what else they could be charged with.
How is five years max a 'trouble'? Sounds perfectly adequate for this instance to me.
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Old 21st December 2018, 01:38 AM   #87
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Originally Posted by baron View Post
It's a bizarre situation. Either the operation is being overseen by the cast of Airplane! or there's something we're not being told. Police helicopter cameras can pin-point a mouse from five miles away, in the dark, yet apparently observing an object the size of a mini-fridge hovering 200 yards away in broad daylight is too demanding.
There's a difference between using IR cameras at night to detect heat sources (usually people), and using your eyeball/scope to spot something that's about a foot on each side.

For it to be hovering 200 yards away that would involve you getting within 200 yards of it. Gatwick is bigger than 200 yards across.
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Old 21st December 2018, 03:59 AM   #88
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Originally Posted by elgarak View Post
What if you have nothing to shoot at?

The drone(s) fly around for a bit. Then, after the airport shuts down, the operator lands the drone, and keeps mum. Police is looking, of course, but have nothing to go at. No drones flying around, no transmissions.

How long do you wait to re-open the airport? You have to wait and let the police (and military, or whoever) do their job to clear the incident. Takes time. That's what seems to be going on right now.
Not really. The airport was shut down for two full days and has only now partially re-opened. The culprits have not been traced and not a single drone has been shot down or captured.

It's not rocket science. If you can see it you can track it. There are multiple videos of these very drones on the internet! Are you suggesting one of the greatest military powers on Earth can't watch a toy and see where it goes, or trap it in a net? Are you kidding me?

Drone appears, helicopter takes off and either tracks it or captures it. What's the problem?

Originally Posted by Tolls View Post
There's a difference between using IR cameras at night to detect heat sources (usually people), and using your eyeball/scope to spot something that's about a foot on each side.
No there isn't, it's exactly the same principle except that we're not talking about a mouse five miles away under a bush, we're talking about a slow-moving object hanging in the air a few hundred yards away and clearly visible to the naked eye.

Originally Posted by Tolls View Post
For it to be hovering 200 yards away that would involve you getting within 200 yards of it. Gatwick is bigger than 200 yards across.
That's a puzzler. I wonder what method we could use to get rapidly closer to an object more than 200 yards away...
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Old 21st December 2018, 05:13 AM   #89
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Would a modern plane engine even notice that it sucked in a hobby drone?
I assume that goose Bones are tougher than plastic.
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Old 21st December 2018, 05:13 AM   #90
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Don Sheldon could have taken them out.
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Old 21st December 2018, 05:15 AM   #91
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Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
Would a modern plane engine even notice that it sucked in a hobby drone?
I assume that goose Bones are tougher than plastic.
While a modern jet engine may technically survive ingesting a goose, or a drone, it will still be a case for landing immediately.
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Old 21st December 2018, 05:27 AM   #92
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Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
Would a modern plane engine even notice that it sucked in a hobby drone?
I assume that goose Bones are tougher than plastic.
Depends on the impact speed. A drone could theoretically punch right through the wing of a plane, and certainly smash through the cockpit window killing both pilots. That's why five years maximum sentence is absurdly low for these crimes. The culprits are effectively threatening the lives of hundreds of people. It's terrorism, pure and simple, and the maximum sentence should be life.
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Old 21st December 2018, 06:21 AM   #93
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I like how this topic is hotly debated, but the Dutch police found a creative solution some time ago.
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Old 21st December 2018, 06:23 AM   #94
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Originally Posted by baron View Post
Depends on the impact speed. A drone could theoretically punch right through the wing of a plane, and certainly smash through the cockpit window killing both pilots. That's why five years maximum sentence is absurdly low for these crimes. The culprits are effectively threatening the lives of hundreds of people. It's terrorism, pure and simple, and the maximum sentence should be life.
I expect that there would be higher level charges if deaths resulted. I also suspect that, if any suspects are identified and jailed, they're also going to be sued to Hell and back.
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Old 21st December 2018, 06:41 AM   #95
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Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
Would a modern plane engine even notice that it sucked in a hobby drone?
I assume that goose Bones are tougher than plastic.

From the frequent use of words like "industrial", I was under the impression that these weren't hobby drones, but something more like Amazon delivery drones.
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Old 21st December 2018, 06:42 AM   #96
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Originally Posted by Eddie Dane View Post
According to reports, it didn't work:

https://www.theverge.com/2017/12/12/...s-rogue-drones
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Old 21st December 2018, 06:49 AM   #97
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There are as I have already posted commercial 'drone killers' available and already in use bythe military in the field.
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Old 21st December 2018, 07:10 AM   #98
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
There are as I have already posted commercial 'drone killers' available and already in use bythe military in the field.
If the drone was pre-programmed, surely it wouldn't be affected by such weapons, as it wouldn't be relying on a radio signal to keep it controlled?
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Old 21st December 2018, 07:28 AM   #99
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A review of one of the anti-drone shotgun shells:

https://youtu.be/vF2tnFC_q8A

Apparently not too effective.....
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Old 21st December 2018, 07:33 AM   #100
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Originally Posted by Bikewer View Post
A review of one of the anti-drone shotgun shells:

https://youtu.be/vF2tnFC_q8A

Apparently not too effective.....
There are so many gimmick shotgun shells out there.

Nearly all of them cost way more than a conventional round, and don't work as well.

Yet they persist.
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Old 21st December 2018, 08:27 AM   #101
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For all these suggested countermeasures, you all forget one thing: Response time.

The drone is spotted. How long then till countermeasures are deployed? If the answer is more than a few seconds, the drone can be zipped away. It's enough to get spotted often enough, and you can force the shutdown.

Countermeasures only work if they work fast and everywhere on the airport all the time. None of the proposals do.

The only one that could, ostensibly, work all the time is jamming. But airplane travel is heavily dependent on wireless signals, and broadcasting to jam will almost certainly interfere with something you do not want to be interfered with. And there's bound to be open frequency windows a clever DIYer could use. As far as I understand real operation, jamming and shutting down airplanes go hand-in-hand.

Really, there's not much you can do right now against this scenario. Just zip around the drone enough to be spotted. Lather, rinse, repeat with multiple people at different areas of the airport, and you can guarantee a shutdown.
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Old 21st December 2018, 08:39 AM   #102
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Originally Posted by elgarak View Post
For all these suggested countermeasures, you all forget one thing: Response time.

The drone is spotted. How long then till countermeasures are deployed? If the answer is more than a few seconds, the drone can be zipped away. It's enough to get spotted often enough, and you can force the shutdown.
Drones don't zip anywhere, even the fastest is slower than a family saloon car. There is video of this drone pottering about above the airfield. If it's slow enough to video it's slow enough to catch or at least track. It would cost virtually nothing (in comparison to shutting down an airport) to have at least one helicopter airborne at all times, negating the need to consider response times at all.
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Old 21st December 2018, 11:47 AM   #103
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
A laser seems even worse than a bullet. Especially if you're trying to bring down drones near a busy airport.

Again, jamming seems like the better solution. With lasers, a plane behind a drone gets a laser hole.
I'm not suggesting that some amateur should be manning the laser. If there is a plane behind, wait till there isn't. Also, lasers can be focused on the approximate distance of the drone, so the beam disperses behind that.


Quote:
With jammers, a plane behind a drone gets a temporary disruption in remote control and GPS signals. One of which the plane doesn't need at all, and the other of which the plane can almost certainly do without for extended periods of time.

Some work would have to be done, to make sure the jammer isn't going to interfere with the plane's own avionics.

And all the jammer technology also already exists, so it's just a question of adaptation, which has also already been answered: Jamming technology has already been adapted to the task of bringing down drones.
The problem with jammers is that drones are, or can be, autonomous. You can program the entire flight for a drone previous to launch. So what is there to jam? Its GPS? Perhaps, but that will not bring it down, only knock it out of course, which might be better than nothing, but not enough.

One possibility is to use RADAR technology to fry it's electronics. But that has it's own problems.

An immediate solution would seem to be helicopters. I much doubt that a commercial drone can stay airborne in the downdraft from a helicopter.

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Old 21st December 2018, 12:07 PM   #104
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BBC reports that Gatwick has been shut down again now because of a possible drone sighting. Within the past hour, I think.
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Old 21st December 2018, 12:30 PM   #105
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Shoot some pellets over their direction with dental floss streamers.
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Old 21st December 2018, 01:06 PM   #106
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Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
BBC reports that Gatwick has been shut down again now because of a possible drone sighting. Within the past hour, I think.
Jesus wept, you'd think it was War of the Worlds, not a miserable bit of plastic controlled by some soy boy hanging out of his parents' attic skylight.
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Old 21st December 2018, 01:46 PM   #107
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Originally Posted by baron View Post
Jesus wept, you'd think it was War of the Worlds, not a miserable bit of plastic controlled by some soy boy hanging out of his parents' attic skylight.
I've seen a number of articles suggesting it may have been a commercial drone, which can approach or exceed the weight of bowlilng balls. Pretty bad to run into at 150 knots.

Has this been resolved?
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Old 21st December 2018, 02:20 PM   #108
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Originally Posted by baron View Post
Drones don't zip anywhere, even the fastest is slower than a family saloon car. There is video of this drone pottering about above the airfield. If it's slow enough to video it's slow enough to catch or at least track. It would cost virtually nothing (in comparison to shutting down an airport) to have at least one helicopter airborne at all times, negating the need to consider response times at all.
Uh ... so the drone takes off, posing a risk to aircraft. The helicopter immediately pursues it?? Are you kidding? What's the comparative risk? And what happens after a month of no drones? They fly helicopters during all commercial flying hours forever?

Meanwhile the drone can take off from anywhere within threatening range, and that includes well outside the airport's perimeter, putting it a mile or two from the helicopter. Nutty plan is nuts.
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Old 21st December 2018, 02:24 PM   #109
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Originally Posted by Giordano View Post
I've seen a number of articles suggesting it may have been a commercial drone, which can approach or exceed the weight of bowlilng balls. Pretty bad to run into at 150 knots.
Indeed. Miserable bit of metal.
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Old 21st December 2018, 02:28 PM   #110
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Originally Posted by GlennB View Post
Uh ... so the drone takes off, posing a risk to aircraft. The helicopter immediately pursues it?? Are you kidding?
No. I was referring to all times during the shut down, during which the drone appeared and disappeared repeatedly. Are you suggesting 40 hours is insufficient to get a helicopter off the ground?

Originally Posted by GlennB View Post
What's the comparative risk? And what happens after a month of no drones? They fly helicopters during all commercial flying hours forever?
By then they should have implemented what they should have implemented five years ago; drone busting technologies.

Originally Posted by GlennB View Post
Meanwhile the drone can take off from anywhere within threatening range, and that includes well outside the airport's perimeter, putting it a mile or two from the helicopter. Nutty plan is nuts.
So your plan is to do nothing and allow any airport in the UK to be shut down indefinitely, at any time, whenever some fool decides to play around with a toy they got off Amazon. Great idea, keep 'em coming.
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Old 21st December 2018, 02:38 PM   #111
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Intelligence agencies are not going to reveal what they know at this stage. However, drone experts are saying this is an industrial drone. The toys in the shops are blocked from going near an airport perimeter and have short battery life. These drones are all together more sophisticated.
How on earth are the "toys in the shops blocked from going near an airport perimeter"? I think you have just made that up.
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Old 21st December 2018, 03:32 PM   #112
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
How on earth are the "toys in the shops blocked from going near an airport perimeter"? I think you have just made that up.
Hmmm. Not impossible, is it?
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Old 21st December 2018, 03:34 PM   #113
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Originally Posted by baron View Post
No. I was referring to all times during the shut down, during which the drone appeared and disappeared repeatedly. Are you suggesting 40 hours is insufficient to get a helicopter off the ground?
No, just that those 40 hours could happen at any UK airport at any time, given the nature of these drones.

Are you suggesting that a helicopter - with multiple crews, to cover all flight hours - be stationed at every airport at all times just in case? The nearest police helicopter might well be 30 mins away and easily spotted by the drone pilot.
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Old 21st December 2018, 03:47 PM   #114
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Originally Posted by GlennB View Post
No, just that those 40 hours could happen at any UK airport at any time, given the nature of these drones.

Are you suggesting that a helicopter - with multiple crews, to cover all flight hours - be stationed at every airport at all times just in case? The nearest police helicopter might well be 30 mins away and easily spotted by the drone pilot.

I don't see why we don't just re-purpose existing assets.



Word is they were incredibly effective at their initial task.
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Old 21st December 2018, 04:03 PM   #115
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Old 21st December 2018, 04:09 PM   #116
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Old 21st December 2018, 04:25 PM   #117
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Nowhere for them to deplane to, probably.

I speculate a communication gap of some sort. The airport could have shuffled some planes around, freed up some gates, rolled out stairs, etc. But that's additional effort and disruption. If the authorities think they'll have it all cleared up in half an hour or so, it's more expedient to just wait it out and then resume normal operations. And if the authorities keep saying, "just 30 minutes more, we promise", then an airport could easily end up waiting several hours without intending to.
Not to mention that they would want to start clearing the backlog immediately the problem was resolved, not wait for people to board the first planes.
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Old 21st December 2018, 05:23 PM   #118
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Originally Posted by tyr_13 View Post
The English don't have archers anymore? Deplorable.
OMG, Charles the Mad wasn't mad at all! He said the French would have their revenge for Agincourt by sending "demons of the air" to bedevil England! It just took a little longer than anticipated.
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Old 21st December 2018, 05:49 PM   #119
carlvs
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
How on earth are the "toys in the shops blocked from going near an airport perimeter"? I think you have just made that up.
Actually, it is called "geofencing," and some drone manufacturers have this feature implemented in their devices firmware. According to this article, systems of this type uses GPS data of known restricted air spaces to warn and/or block drones from flying in or into them.

However, even though geofencing can solve some problems, it can introduce others...

Quote:
"One is that the boundaries of prohibited areas sometimes overlap in complicated ways. Many no-fly areas are not simple geometric shapes and straight lines but instead follow rivers, roads, or other geographical features. So the no-fly zones end up looking like ink blots on Rorschach tests. Navigating through the resulting mazes can be tricky.

"...Aviation industry observers point out that sometimes GPS reception can be unreliable...

"Additionally, an operator may lose control of a drone if the automatic control kicks in during a brush with a no-fly boundary...

"Finally, manually controlled drones lacking GPS canít observe geofences..."
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Old 21st December 2018, 07:21 PM   #120
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Originally Posted by baron View Post
Jesus wept, you'd think it was War of the Worlds, not a miserable bit of plastic controlled by some soy boy hanging out of his parents' attic skylight.
And guerrilla forces can tie down a technologically advanced and superior force.
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