ISF Logo   IS Forum
Forum Index Register Members List Events Mark Forums Read Help

Go Back   International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Social Issues & Current Events
 


Welcome to the International Skeptics Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today.
Tags LeBron James , racism charges , racism issues

Reply
Old 22nd December 2018, 08:33 AM   #1
William Parcher
Show me the monkey!
 
William Parcher's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 22,055
LeBron James talks like a racist

Originally Posted by The Washington Post quoting LeBron James
"In the NFL they got a bunch of old white men owning teams and they got that slave mentality," LeBron James said. "And it's like, 'This is my team. You do what the **** I tell y'all to do. Or we get rid of y'all.'"
https://www.washingtonpost.com/sport...toward-players

To me this sounds like a racist statement. Does this represent acceptable everyday racism against white people? I don't know how society will react to what James just said, but I can imagine that if a white person said a comparable thing about black people there would be widespread outrage at the discovery of yet another white racist. I can also imagine serious consequences if something like that happened.

Racism should not be acceptable coming from anyone regardless of their race or who they are and that includes LeBron James. I post this here rather than the Sports Forum because this is a Social Issue.

Edited by Agatha:  Edited quote for rule 10. Please be careful when copying and pasting from other sources that you do not c&p any rule breaches
__________________
Bigfoot believers and Bigfoot skeptics are both plumb crazy. Each spends more than one minute per year thinking about Bigfoot.

Last edited by Agatha; 23rd December 2018 at 09:29 AM.
William Parcher is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd December 2018, 08:40 AM   #2
Pterodactyl
Graduate Poster
 
Pterodactyl's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2013
Posts: 1,090
White men can be acceptably vilified by anyone.

You know this, man.
Pterodactyl is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd December 2018, 08:43 AM   #3
Whip
Graduate Poster
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
Posts: 1,326
I'm trying to figure out how the NBA is different? Or are all their teams owned by old black men?
Whip is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd December 2018, 08:46 AM   #4
theprestige
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 32,629
I'm more intrigued by James' idea that having a job is like being a slave.
theprestige is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd December 2018, 08:53 AM   #5
3point14
Pi
 
3point14's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 17,015
Which teams aren't owned by rich white men?

Green Bay and...?

I really have no idea.
__________________
Up the River!

Anyone that wraps themselves in the Union Flag and also lives in tax exile is a [redacted]
3point14 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd December 2018, 09:15 AM   #6
Thermal
Philosopher
 
Thermal's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Location: NJ USA. We Don't Like You Either
Posts: 6,747
Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
I'm more intrigued by James' idea that having a job is like being a slave.
And an obscenely well paying job to boot. It's not exactly slavery for your boss to expect you to deliver.

The good Mr James does not seem to appreciate the subtle difference between slavery and being paid millions of dollars a year for part-time work doing what you love
__________________
"Half of what he said meant something else, and the other half didn't mean anything at all" -Rosencrantz, on Hamlet
Thermal is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd December 2018, 09:25 AM   #7
Porpoise of Life
Illuminator
 
Porpoise of Life's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2014
Posts: 4,742
Come on, he's right! Slaves were told to do as their owners commanded, or they'd be fired and told to look for gainful employment elsewhere... right?

On the other hand... Trying to spin this entitled millionaire's griping as evil racism that should have consequences smacks of "look, look, black people do it too" and "if you think this shouldn't have consequences, then why complain about racist white people?"

So congrats, childishness all around!
Porpoise of Life is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd December 2018, 09:25 AM   #8
Thermal
Philosopher
 
Thermal's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Location: NJ USA. We Don't Like You Either
Posts: 6,747
There's also that weird idea that POC can't be racist because they are not 'in power'. Meaning you have carte blanche to be hateful to whitey. Cause that makes sense.
__________________
"Half of what he said meant something else, and the other half didn't mean anything at all" -Rosencrantz, on Hamlet
Thermal is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd December 2018, 09:30 AM   #9
Whip
Graduate Poster
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
Posts: 1,326
Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
And an obscenely well paying job to boot. It's not exactly slavery for your boss to expect you to deliver.

The good Mr James does not seem to appreciate the subtle difference between slavery and being paid millions of dollars a year for part-time work doing what you love
not only that but blacks breaking the color barrier in sports long ago.
Whip is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd December 2018, 09:34 AM   #10
baron
Guest
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 8,627
Those poor black slaves. Some are only on $25m a year.
baron is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd December 2018, 10:33 AM   #11
Giordano
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Posts: 15,325
Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
https://www.washingtonpost.com/sport...toward-players

To me this sounds like a racist statement. Does this represent acceptable everyday racism against white people? I don't know how society will react to what James just said, but I can imagine that if a white person said a comparable thing about black people there would be widespread outrage at the discovery of yet another white racist. I can also imagine serious consequences if something like that happened.

Racism should not be acceptable coming from anyone regardless of their race or who they are and that includes LeBron James. I post this here rather than the Sports Forum because this is a Social Issue.
Separate from what I view as hyperbole in his remarks, I do not see this as racism at all. If one is arguing that they are the victim of racism it is impossible to not mention the race of the people you view as victimizing you for that reason.

The conservative meme is that only minorities and liberals are racist because they are the ones who talk about race... Amusing concept!
Giordano is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd December 2018, 10:43 AM   #12
LSSBB
Devilish Dictionarian
 
LSSBB's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: An elusive house at Bachelors Grove Cemetery
Posts: 19,950
Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
I'm more intrigued by James' idea that having a job is like being a slave.
This. Especially a particularly lucrative job.
__________________
"You must not let your need to be right be more important than your need to find out what's true." - Ray Dalio, Principles
LSSBB is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd December 2018, 11:02 AM   #13
Kings Full
Thinker
 
Join Date: Jan 2018
Location: Texas
Posts: 142
Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
I'm more intrigued by James' idea that having a job is like being a slave.
Right, as everyone knows the owner of the local Jimmy Johns is willing to let his employees do as they please and always treats them with the utmost courtesy and respect.

It must be so hard on LeBron!
__________________
I decided to take the train to work one day and as luck would have it I sat across from a stunningly beautiful young Indonesian girl. I kept saying to myself, please don't get an erection, please don't get an erection.... but she did!
Kings Full is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd December 2018, 11:28 AM   #14
Mumbles
Philosopher
 
Mumbles's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 6,693
Well, he's completely correct, so...what's the problem?
Mumbles is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd December 2018, 11:42 AM   #15
Thermal
Philosopher
 
Thermal's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Location: NJ USA. We Don't Like You Either
Posts: 6,747
In a hardcore communist sense, maybe.

Except again for those millions and fame and assorted perks of being a professional athlete. Missed all that as part of a slave's lot in school, I guess
__________________
"Half of what he said meant something else, and the other half didn't mean anything at all" -Rosencrantz, on Hamlet
Thermal is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd December 2018, 11:43 AM   #16
lionking
In the Peanut Gallery
 
lionking's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Melbourne
Posts: 43,187
Originally Posted by Mumbles View Post
Well, he's completely correct, so...what's the problem?
Well a post like this took a while.

Leaving aside the “slave”:hyperbole (some posting in this thread revel in hyperbole) LeBron is correct and the comment is not racist.
__________________
A fanatic is one who can't change his mind and won't change the subject.

Sir Winston Churchill
lionking is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd December 2018, 11:50 AM   #17
Giordano
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Posts: 15,325
I feel the need to point out that professional sports in the USA are hardly an example of a free market economy. If after years of training, effort, and screening one has reached the rarified levels required to play professional basketball in the USA, there is only one "game in town;" the NBA. One then has no other choice but to be hired by, and live by the rules defined by the owners of the NBA. It is not the same as being a software developer who, if unhappy with Microsoft, can look for a job with Google. If you want to play professional basketball in the USA it is the NBA or nothing. The "other choice" is a totally different career, a job completely different from the one you trained for and aspired to since you were a child.

Sure, superficially it is hard to feel sorry for the $25 million a year successes. But there are an enormous number of players seeking this career who are discarded for every one of these successes. Players who stall out in high school, college, or in the NBA itself and are left at loose ends and without significant financial resources. What is the ratio? A hundred to one? A thousand to one? And even the very few multi-million dollar successes often have their careers ended instantly with a single injury, or end up with severe chronic pain thats haunts them for decades after their retirements.

NBA players are certainly not slaves and the comparison is outrageous. But nor is being a professional basketball player as free or as secure as being a software developer. The NBA is a monopoly and not just another job.

Last edited by Giordano; 22nd December 2018 at 11:51 AM.
Giordano is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd December 2018, 12:00 PM   #18
William Parcher
Show me the monkey!
 
William Parcher's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 22,055
Originally Posted by Giordano View Post
Separate from what I view as hyperbole in his remarks, I do not see this as racism at all. If one is arguing that they are the victim of racism it is impossible to not mention the race of the people you view as victimizing you for that reason.
The hyperbole reveals what seems to be racism. James could have said the same thing differently...

"In the NFL they got a bunch of owners," LeBron James said. "And their mentality is like, 'This is my team. You do what the **** I tell y'all to do. Or we get rid of y'all.'"

That would state his gripe. But instead he targets the owners as being white and having slave-owner mentality.

Is hyperbole really an escape from what appears to be racism? "Oh, that guy isn't really racist he's just running off his mouth." Think about the consequences that people have faced when their public hyperbole includes references to another race. How many have we seen knocked out of their position in life because they said the wrong thing about another race? Plenty!

Edited by Agatha:  Edited for rule 10
__________________
Bigfoot believers and Bigfoot skeptics are both plumb crazy. Each spends more than one minute per year thinking about Bigfoot.

Last edited by Agatha; 23rd December 2018 at 12:33 PM.
William Parcher is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd December 2018, 12:06 PM   #19
Thermal
Philosopher
 
Thermal's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Location: NJ USA. We Don't Like You Either
Posts: 6,747
Originally Posted by Giordano View Post
I feel the need to point out that professional sports in the USA are hardly an example of a free market economy. If after years of training, effort, and screening one has reached the rarified levels required to play professional basketball in the USA, there is only one "game in town;" the NBA. One then has no other choice but to be hired by, and live by the rules defined by the owners of the NBA. It is not the same as being a software developer who, if unhappy with Microsoft, can look for a job with Google. If you want to play professional basketball in the USA it is the NBA or nothing. The "other choice" is a totally different career, a job completely different from the one you trained for and aspired to since you were a child.

Sure, superficially it is hard to feel sorry for the $25 million a year successes. But there are an enormous number of players seeking this career who are discarded for every one of these successes. Players who stall out in high school, college, or in the NBA itself and are left at loose ends and without significant financial resources. What is the ratio? A hundred to one? A thousand to one? And even the very few multi-million dollar successes often have their careers ended instantly with a single injury, or end up with severe chronic pain thats haunts them for decades after their retirements.

NBA players are certainly not slaves and the comparison is outrageous. But nor is being a professional basketball player as free or as secure as being a software developer. The NBA is a monopoly and not just another job.
The same could be said for a Hollywood actor. Being at the top of one's proffesion is hardly slavish.

I'm having a hard time thinking of something less slavish. What is the involuntary and uncompensated servitude angle again?
__________________
"Half of what he said meant something else, and the other half didn't mean anything at all" -Rosencrantz, on Hamlet
Thermal is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd December 2018, 12:22 PM   #20
Giordano
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Posts: 15,325
Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
The hyperbole reveals what seems to be racism. James could have said the same thing differently...

"In the NFL they got a bunch of owners," LeBron James said. "And their mentality is like, 'This is my team. You do what the **** I tell y'all to do. Or we get rid of y'all.'"

That would state his gripe. But instead he targets the owners as being white and having slave-owner mentality.

Is hyperbole really an escape from what appears to be racism? "Oh, that guy isn't really racist he's just running off his mouth." Think about the consequences that people have faced when their public hyperbole includes references to another race. How many have we seen knocked out of their position in life because they said the wrong thing about another race? Plenty!
There is no question that he is accusing the owners of racism and/or running a system based on racism. His gripe includes his view that the owners run their organization from a racist mentality. I don't know whether he is right or wrong (he lives that career and is immersed in how the NBA runs every day, whereas I know almost nothing about it). If he is right then his statement is not hyperbole; if he wrong than his choice of words is over the top. But this is how he sees it, and for the reason I stated, he is not being racist.

Last edited by Agatha; 23rd December 2018 at 12:34 PM. Reason: Edited quote for rule 10
Giordano is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd December 2018, 12:30 PM   #21
Giordano
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Posts: 15,325
Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
The same could be said for a Hollywood actor. Being at the top of one's proffesion is hardly slavish.

I'm having a hard time thinking of something less slavish. What is the involuntary and uncompensated servitude angle again?
I disagree. There are many, many choices for an actor, even in Hollywood and even if solely restricted to movies. Multiple studios, multiple producers, multiple production companies, multiple sources of funding, etc. Actors move between these all the time. Beyond that there are many non-Hollywood venues one can act and many levels of acting: television, playhouses, etc. that further increase the choices available to them. Acting is not restricted in any way comparable to that seen in the NBA or in many other professional sports.
Giordano is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd December 2018, 12:36 PM   #22
abaddon
Penultimate Amazing
 
abaddon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Posts: 18,380
Somebody tell me who Lebron James is and why I should give a rats about him?
__________________
Who is General Failure? And why is he reading my hard drive?


...love and buttercakes...
abaddon is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd December 2018, 01:02 PM   #23
baron
Guest
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 8,627
Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
The same could be said for a Hollywood actor. Being at the top of one's proffesion is hardly slavish.

I'm having a hard time thinking of something less slavish. What is the involuntary and uncompensated servitude angle again?
The bosses are white. That's enough to cry racism, the rest - such as their employees being literally the most privileged group of people to walk the earth - doesn't matter.
baron is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd December 2018, 01:02 PM   #24
Thermal
Philosopher
 
Thermal's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Location: NJ USA. We Don't Like You Either
Posts: 6,747
Originally Posted by Giordano View Post
I disagree. There are many, many choices for an actor, even in Hollywood and even if solely restricted to movies. Multiple studios, multiple producers, multiple production companies, multiple sources of funding, etc. Actors move between these all the time. Beyond that there are many non-Hollywood venues one can act and many levels of acting: television, playhouses, etc. that further increase the choices available to them. Acting is not restricted in any way comparable to that seen in the NBA or in many other professional sports.
Well, that's true, but a retired athlete has options in coaching, sportscasting, and the other related fields. Not to mention a rather sizeable kitty for any other entrepreneurial jaunt.
__________________
"Half of what he said meant something else, and the other half didn't mean anything at all" -Rosencrantz, on Hamlet
Thermal is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd December 2018, 01:06 PM   #25
Thermal
Philosopher
 
Thermal's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Location: NJ USA. We Don't Like You Either
Posts: 6,747
Originally Posted by abaddon View Post
Somebody tell me who Lebron James is and why I should give a rats about him?
American dude living in for what most would consider unreachable luxury and opulence who evidently finds it inhumanly cruel to do for a living what most do for fun.

#slavewages
__________________
"Half of what he said meant something else, and the other half didn't mean anything at all" -Rosencrantz, on Hamlet
Thermal is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd December 2018, 01:18 PM   #26
Giordano
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Posts: 15,325
Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Well, that's true, but a retired athlete has options in coaching, sportscasting, and the other related fields. Not to mention a rather sizeable kitty for any other entrepreneurial jaunt.
True, but those are not playing basketball, which, from my limited interactions with athletes, is what many athletes live and die for.

Also professional coaching falls fully under the control of the NBA, and even sportscasting at the professional level is undoubtably strongly influenced by the NBA organization. I doubt an individual on the outs with the NBA is going to find it easy to be hired as a sportscaster for NBA games on a major TV network.
Giordano is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd December 2018, 01:40 PM   #27
Giordano
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Posts: 15,325
Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
American dude living in for what most would consider unreachable luxury and opulence who evidently finds it inhumanly cruel to do for a living what most do for fun.

#slavewages
And rich CEOs complain about the thread count in the sheets in their $10,000 a night luxury hotel rooms. That is just how people are. At least I can see LeBron James complaints as relating to, and potentially helping other, less well off players.

I also doubt that playing professional basketball is as unrelenting "fun" as you appear to be suggesting. It is brutal mentally and physically with the real prospect of a career-ending injury during any game or even any practice. And with near constant physical conditioning, intense practice sessions, and the over-reaching "are you scoring enough to keep on the team" question overhanging much of their day to day life (at least during the sports season and to some extent beyond).

Pure "fun" is a pick up game on Saturday with your buddies when your very job is not on the line, you can quit any time you wish, you are not being judged by a million people including your boss, and you can get a beer later. I am certain that professional basketball players have fun at their work (as do I). But it is a much more complex and unalloyed form of fun than just enjoying a game, just as my fun at my work is offset by the inevitable unpleasant obligations, worries, concerns, and exhausting efforts.

Again,I am not crying for James: multiple millions of dollar salaries must help a lot. But as I posted, many do not achieve his level of success and I can see the complexities. I do not demean him or his right to put forward the problems as he sees them. He is paid to play basketball, not hush money.

Last edited by Giordano; 22nd December 2018 at 01:42 PM.
Giordano is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd December 2018, 01:47 PM   #28
mgidm86
Philosopher
 
mgidm86's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Posts: 5,200
Originally Posted by Giordano View Post

... snip ...

...it is hard to feel sorry for the $25 million a year successes.


... snip ...


NBA players are certainly not slaves and the comparison is outrageous.
Well said

Is Lebron a racist? Don't know, don't care. What he said sure doesn't help racial tensions, but that's not his responsibility. He just comes across as another very stupid whining self-important celebrity.
__________________
Franklin understands certain kickbacks you obtain unfairly are legal liabilities; however, a risky deed's almost never detrimental despite extra external pressures.
mgidm86 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd December 2018, 01:57 PM   #29
paiute
Graduate Poster
 
paiute's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Posts: 1,331
Most of you are missing something. The NBA, where James is employed, is a player's league. The NFL is an owner's league. He was commenting on the relationship between ownership and players in the NFL. With that in mind, carry on.

https://theundefeated.com/features/p...layers-league/
__________________
A Novel and Efficient Synthesis of Cadaverine
Organic chemistry, vengeful ghosts, and high explosives. What could possibly go wrong?
Now free for download!
http://www.scribd.com/doc/36568510/A...-of-Cadaverine
paiute is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd December 2018, 02:04 PM   #30
cullennz
Embarrasingly illiterate
 
cullennz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 14,888
I think people are being a bit harsh to down play LeBron's concerns here.

A quick Google tells me he is only on 36.5 million dollars a year.

Most of us if we think about it probably wouldn't even get out of bed for that

The irony is he will probably retire and buy shares in a basketball team
__________________
I generally oppose gun control, but I support the ban on assault weapons and I support a slightly longer waiting period to purchase a gun. With today’s Internet technology we should be able to tell within 72-hours if a potential gun owner has a record.

Source: The America We Deserve, by Donald Trump, p.102 , Jul 2, 2000

Last edited by cullennz; 22nd December 2018 at 02:05 PM.
cullennz is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd December 2018, 02:11 PM   #31
baron
Guest
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 8,627
Originally Posted by Giordano View Post
And rich CEOs complain about the thread count in the sheets in their $10,000 a night luxury hotel rooms. That is just how people are. At least I can see LeBron James complaints as relating to, and potentially helping other, less well off players.

I also doubt that playing professional basketball is as unrelenting "fun" as you appear to be suggesting. It is brutal mentally and physically with the real prospect of a career-ending injury during any game or even any practice. And with near constant physical conditioning, intense practice sessions, and the over-reaching "are you scoring enough to keep on the team" question overhanging much of their day to day life (at least during the sports season and to some extent beyond).

Pure "fun" is a pick up game on Saturday with your buddies when your very job is not on the line, you can quit any time you wish, you are not being judged by a million people including your boss, and you can get a beer later. I am certain that professional basketball players have fun at their work (as do I). But it is a much more complex and unalloyed form of fun than just enjoying a game, just as my fun at my work is offset by the inevitable unpleasant obligations, worries, concerns, and exhausting efforts.

Again,I am not crying for James: multiple millions of dollar salaries must help a lot. But as I posted, many do not achieve his level of success and I can see the complexities. I do not demean him or his right to put forward the problems as he sees them. He is paid to play basketball, not hush money.
Whilst it's true that most basketball players won't make it, the rewards of those who do are pretty much unparalleled. Money beyond imagining and all the fame you could want (assuming you're into that sort of thing, which of course they all are). Very few other vocations offer that, and none outside sports and acting. I changed career from technology to the arts some ten years back, making a hobby into a profession, and I'm now fortunate enough to be working for the top companies in the world doing a job most people only dream of. Competition is stronger than for any NBA position but here's the difference - if I bust my balls working into my 70s I can expect to earn in total what some of these NBA players collect in a month. I get told what to do and when to do it and I'm happy with that. If I started whining about being a slave people would think I'd lost my mind, and they would be right.
baron is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd December 2018, 02:11 PM   #32
lobosrul5
Graduate Poster
 
lobosrul5's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2017
Posts: 1,561
Originally Posted by Giordano View Post
I feel the need to point out that professional sports in the USA are hardly an example of a free market economy. If after years of training, effort, and screening one has reached the rarified levels required to play professional basketball in the USA, there is only one "game in town;" the NBA. One then has no other choice but to be hired by, and live by the rules defined by the owners of the NBA. It is not the same as being a software developer who, if unhappy with Microsoft, can look for a job with Google. If you want to play professional basketball in the USA it is the NBA or nothing. The "other choice" is a totally different career, a job completely different from the one you trained for and aspired to since you were a child.

Sure, superficially it is hard to feel sorry for the $25 million a year successes. But there are an enormous number of players seeking this career who are discarded for every one of these successes. Players who stall out in high school, college, or in the NBA itself and are left at loose ends and without significant financial resources. What is the ratio? A hundred to one? A thousand to one? And even the very few multi-million dollar successes often have their careers ended instantly with a single injury, or end up with severe chronic pain thats haunts them for decades after their retirements.

NBA players are certainly not slaves and the comparison is outrageous. But nor is being a professional basketball player as free or as secure as being a software developer. The NBA is a monopoly and not just another job.
First off, you're kind of wrong. There are a few other pro basketball leagues in the world that US players can and have gone to. As for the NFL, well there the CFL (a slightly different game, but same skill sets), and that's really it. That said, the NFL has special dispensation to act as a cartel in the USA in exchange for not scheduling games on Friday or Saturday before December. Its not as bad as it was before free agency though when a players team owner had total control of his football career. Also, as I understand it, NBA contracts are paid out 100% unless a player quits unlike the NFL, its guaranteed money
lobosrul5 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd December 2018, 02:41 PM   #33
sadhatter
Philosopher
 
sadhatter's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 8,382
Originally Posted by Giordano View Post
Separate from what I view as hyperbole in his remarks, I do not see this as racism at all. If one is arguing that they are the victim of racism it is impossible to not mention the race of the people you view as victimizing you for that reason.

The conservative meme is that only minorities and liberals are racist because they are the ones who talk about race... Amusing concept!
You are wrong and I can prove so with a simple hypothetical.

You, myself and our black friend are hanging out. Let's call him Jeff. He has a story to tell about a mutual Co worker who we will call bill.

Jeff says to us.

"Bill called me a ****** , then said that me, my entire family, and anyone who looks like me should be rounded up and shot. He then proceeded to say that after that we should nuke Africa just to be sure no more people like me could sneak in. "

1. Is it obvious that racist remarks were made to Jeff (assuming his story is true)?

If your answer is no, then we need to discuss a definition of racist remark.

If it is yes.

2. Tell me bill's race. We know he is racist, so by your definition real life you and I should know his race by the statements made about him or it would be impossible for Jeff to relay this information workout saying his race.
sadhatter is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd December 2018, 02:43 PM   #34
3point14
Pi
 
3point14's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 17,015
Originally Posted by lobosrul5 View Post
First off, you're kind of wrong. There are a few other pro basketball leagues in the world that US players can and have gone to



He could go play here:

https://www.eurohoops.net/en/top-lis...ague-salaries/
__________________
Up the River!

Anyone that wraps themselves in the Union Flag and also lives in tax exile is a [redacted]

Last edited by 3point14; 22nd December 2018 at 02:46 PM.
3point14 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd December 2018, 02:57 PM   #35
Cain
Straussian
 
Cain's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Los Angeles
Posts: 12,676
It's getting out of hand. We can't have the inmates running the prison.
__________________
April 13th, 2018:
Ranb: I can't think of anything useful you contributed to a thread in the last few years.
Cain is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd December 2018, 03:51 PM   #36
johnny karate
... and your little dog too.
 
johnny karate's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 11,874
LeBron’s statement was stupid hyperbole. *shrugs*

He also didn’t compare being a professional athlete to slavery, so it looks like the stupid is contagious and spread to this thread.
johnny karate is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd December 2018, 04:26 PM   #37
Giordano
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Posts: 15,325
Originally Posted by lobosrul5 View Post
First off, you're kind of wrong. There are a few other pro basketball leagues in the world that US players can and have gone to. As for the NFL, well there the CFL (a slightly different game, but same skill sets), and that's really it. That said, the NFL has special dispensation to act as a cartel in the USA in exchange for not scheduling games on Friday or Saturday before December. Its not as bad as it was before free agency though when a players team owner had total control of his football career. Also, as I understand it, NBA contracts are paid out 100% unless a player quits unlike the NFL, its guaranteed money
You might notice that I was very careful to indicate the USA specifically in my posts. I don't see abandoning one's country just to have a job as a trivial option to the NBA. But aren't we discussing the NFL now? And citing the CFL as an option vs the NFL is just silly. They are truly completely different leagues.
Giordano is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd December 2018, 04:56 PM   #38
Hungry81
Master Poster
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 2,074
Yeah change sports and NBA for Hollywood and players for actors and you have exactly the same sob story.

There are plenty of careers that someone could really really want and work and study hard towards, and then not get through no fault of their own due to, timing, bias, nepotisim, disability, bad luck or other unfortunate circumstances etc. Additionally Most jobs many people aspire to have no where near the levels of pay and societal status even if enthused aspirants do achieve them. Comparing his situation to slavery is not just hyperbole it is ignorant and should not compared it to atrocities such as slavery as it diminishes and trivialises the experience of those who have been through more comparable situations, as well as the perception of those on the sidelines. It is comparable to stolen valour in a sense. Does he also consider Anglo-European sports people as slaves as well?

Last edited by Hungry81; 22nd December 2018 at 05:08 PM.
Hungry81 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd December 2018, 05:04 PM   #39
Hungry81
Master Poster
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 2,074
Originally Posted by Giordano View Post
I feel the need to point out that professional sports in the USA are hardly an example of a free market economy. If after years of training, effort, and screening one has reached the rarified levels required to play professional basketball in the USA, there is only one "game in town;" the NBA. One then has no other choice but to be hired by, and live by the rules defined by the owners of the NBA. It is not the same as being a software developer who, if unhappy with Microsoft, can look for a job with Google. If you want to play professional basketball in the USA it is the NBA or nothing. The "other choice" is a totally different career, a job completely different from the one you trained for and aspired to since you were a child.

Sure, superficially it is hard to feel sorry for the $25 million a year successes. But there are an enormous number of players seeking this career who are discarded for every one of these successes. Players who stall out in high school, college, or in the NBA itself and are left at loose ends and without significant financial resources. What is the ratio? A hundred to one? A thousand to one? And even the very few multi-million dollar successes often have their careers ended instantly with a single injury, or end up with severe chronic pain thats haunts them for decades after their retirements.

NBA players are certainly not slaves and the comparison is outrageous. But nor is being a professional basketball player as free or as secure as being a software developer. The NBA is a monopoly and not just another job.
Originally Posted by Giordano View Post
I disagree. There are many, many choices for an actor, even in Hollywood and even if solely restricted to movies. Multiple studios, multiple producers, multiple production companies, multiple sources of funding, etc. Actors move between these all the time. Beyond that there are many non-Hollywood venues one can act and many levels of acting: television, playhouses, etc. that further increase the choices available to them. Acting is not restricted in any way comparable to that seen in the NBA or in many other professional sports.
As in sports, Multiple teams, many different countries, local, state and country level, various international competitions, a multitude of other non playing roles, other similar sports. Hell start a campaign, lobby recruit and fundraise and get your own league started. Everyone has dreams, not everyone achieves them. Move on like everyone else has to. At least the op has millions of dollars to cry into.
Hungry81 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd December 2018, 05:17 PM   #40
BobTheCoward
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 16,054
Originally Posted by Cain View Post
It's getting out of hand. We can't have the inmates running the prison.
The NBA is probably the sport that can be most enjoyed without extra baggage. And that has a lot to do with the player driven nature of the league.
BobTheCoward is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Reply

International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Social Issues & Current Events

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 11:15 AM.
Powered by vBulletin. Copyright ©2000 - 2019, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.

This forum began as part of the James Randi Education Foundation (JREF). However, the forum now exists as
an independent entity with no affiliation with or endorsement by the JREF, including the section in reference to "JREF" topics.

Disclaimer: Messages posted in the Forum are solely the opinion of their authors.