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Old 3rd January 2019, 08:34 AM   #81
Nessie
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
Royal Navy has been asked for assistance.
Asylum claims in the UK;

http://www.europarl.europa.eu/extern...default_en.htm

2011 - 26,915
2012 - 28,800
2013 - 30,585
2014 - 32,785
2015 - 38,800
2016 - 38,785
2017 - 33,780

Compare that to Germany

2011 - 53,235
2017 - 222,560

Imagine how we would react if there really was a crisis!
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Old 3rd January 2019, 09:00 AM   #82
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Navy has sent an Offshore Patrol Boat.
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Old 3rd January 2019, 10:17 AM   #83
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Originally Posted by baron View Post
And I disagree. Not only is it not exceptional in terms of demonstrating the results of allowing mass immigration, it's the gold standard of examples, followed closely by Sweden.
You continuing to insist does not make it true. Germany had a very large number arrive in a short space of time, which clearly takes longer to assimilate and employ.

[quote]That's speculation. Also, you're interpreting the rhetoric of 'hostile environment' to mean 'breaking international law', which it absolutely does not mean but which is what it would mean if refugees were refused entry. I could speculate the opposite. Best stick to the figures, which show that more claims were rejected than accepted.

Figures like these?

2014
Grants of asylum = 11,906
Other grants = 1,466
Refused or withdrawn = 10,473

2015
Grants of asylum = 13,847
Other grants = 1,777
Refused or withdrawn = 13,268

Quote:
Also, we have this:

Quote:
Most applications for asylum are made by those already in the country (90% of applications) rather than by people at their time of arriving in the UK at a port. Applicants tend to be young and male.
We know the last part but the first part casts doubt on the alleged altruistic motives of these thousands of young men. They aren't in so much danger that they claim asylum as soon as they can, but hey, they kind of like it here so wouldn't it be nice if they could stay...
Unless you can show that the delay between arrival and application is excessive, none of the above carries any weight.
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Old 3rd January 2019, 10:18 AM   #84
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Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
Asylum claims in the UK;

http://www.europarl.europa.eu/extern...default_en.htm

2011 - 26,915
2012 - 28,800
2013 - 30,585
2014 - 32,785
2015 - 38,800
2016 - 38,785
2017 - 33,780

Compare that to Germany

2011 - 53,235
2017 - 222,560

Imagine how we would react if there really was a crisis!
No, but according to baron Germany is totally typical, and can be used to characterise the whole of Europe.
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Old 3rd January 2019, 10:20 AM   #85
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
Navy has sent an Offshore Patrol Boat.
Seems fair - why should the Border Agency have all the fun?

Last edited by Information Analyst; 3rd January 2019 at 10:24 AM.
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Old 3rd January 2019, 01:49 PM   #86
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Originally Posted by Information Analyst View Post
You continuing to insist does not make it true. Germany had a very large number arrive in a short space of time, which clearly takes longer to assimilate and employ.
Yes, and for the nth time it's a great example of what happens when a country accepts practically every migrant who turns up on its borders.

Originally Posted by Information Analyst View Post
Figures like these?

2014
Grants of asylum = 11,906
Other grants = 1,466
Refused or withdrawn = 10,473

2015
Grants of asylum = 13,847
Other grants = 1,777
Refused or withdrawn = 13,268
Ah, the old trick of selectively posting from a mystery source in the hope nobody will discover it and present the full facts.

Year Percent Rejected
2004 73.6%
2005 68.7%
2006 66.2%
2007 62.9%
2008 60.2%
2009 59.7%
2010 61.7%
2011 55.9%
2012 55.1%
2013 53.4%
2014 43.9%
2015 45.9%
2016 60.2%

https://researchbriefings.files.parl...03/SN01403.pdf

So we can see that in the 13 years to 2016, every year aside from 2014 and 2015 have seen majority rejections. The most recent year saw almost 2 in 3 applications rejected.

So I'll say again: Let's stick to the facts, which show more claims rejected than accepted.

Originally Posted by Information Analyst View Post
Unless you can show that the delay between arrival and application is excessive, none of the above carries any weight.
I would imagine that any delay is excessive when your life hangs in the balance.
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Old 3rd January 2019, 01:57 PM   #87
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Originally Posted by baron View Post
I would imagine that any delay is excessive when your life hangs in the balance.
Not to mention counter-productive since patiently waiting like you're supposed to means everyone gets to declare you a benefits sponge.

Last edited by Delphic Oracle; 3rd January 2019 at 01:59 PM.
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Old 3rd January 2019, 01:58 PM   #88
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Originally Posted by Delphic Oracle View Post
Not to mention counter-productive since patiently waiting like you're supposed to means everyone gets to declare you a benefits sponge.
There you go, another reason. Thanks for supporting my argument.
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Old 3rd January 2019, 02:14 PM   #89
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Asylum threads are always fun. the same old faces with the same old nasty bigotry.
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Old 3rd January 2019, 04:31 PM   #90
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Originally Posted by Arcade22 View Post
When there's over 1000 asylum seekers arriving every day they can call it a "crisis".
Aye, it's such a nightmare with the conflict in Greece, Italy, France and Spain that they have to escape from those countries...
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Old 4th January 2019, 02:01 AM   #91
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Originally Posted by Mikemcc View Post
Aye, it's such a nightmare with the conflict in Greece, Italy, France and Spain that they have to escape from those countries...
Should only other countries offer asylum then?
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Old 4th January 2019, 03:07 AM   #92
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Originally Posted by Archie Gemmill Goal View Post
Should only other countries offer asylum then?
It is a sneaky argument that asylum should be claimed in the first safe country someone can get to, as the UK is physically far harder to get to than most other European countries, Ireland (and /or Iceland) being the hardest.
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Old 4th January 2019, 03:39 AM   #93
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Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
It is a sneaky argument that asylum should be claimed in the first safe country someone can get to, as the UK is physically far harder to get to than most other European countries, Ireland (and /or Iceland) being the hardest.
Itís not a sneaky argument, itís a legal one that is quite easy to look up.
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Old 4th January 2019, 04:39 AM   #94
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Originally Posted by lionking View Post
Itís not a sneaky argument, itís a legal one that is quite easy to look up.
Its both. But its simply a copout. It pretends that the issue is how the people arrived but given that there is no legal way for such people to arrive in the UK it is simply a figleaf to cover for the real intent and that is that asylum seekers should be excluded from the UK.
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Old 4th January 2019, 04:42 AM   #95
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Originally Posted by Archie Gemmill Goal View Post
Its both. But its simply a copout. It pretends that the issue is how the people arrived but given that there is no legal way for such people to arrive in the UK it is simply a figleaf to cover for the real intent and that is that asylum seekers should be excluded from the UK.

Perhaps we could send them to Australia.
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Old 4th January 2019, 04:48 AM   #96
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The way the system should work in theory is that the asylum seeker arrives in Greece or Italy or wherever is assessed rapidly and quickly transited to another country. But this breaks down because countries like the UK and a lot of its small minded people don't want to accept asylum seekers. these people are advocating a system where it is simply someone else's problem. and its disgusting that they tey to couch that in terms of concern for the welfare of those undertaking the dangerous journey.
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Old 4th January 2019, 04:50 AM   #97
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Originally Posted by Mojo View Post
Perhaps we could send them to Australia.
As I said earlier, Australia takes more than its fair share of refugees.

But how would you run an immigration system? Itís tragic that so many people live in ****** countries, but the answer isnít that they be allowed to simply arrive in the 20 or so really desirable destinations and be granted asylum. The UK has the right to set conditions of its immigration system.
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Old 4th January 2019, 04:54 AM   #98
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Originally Posted by Archie Gemmill Goal View Post
The way the system should work in theory is that the asylum seeker arrives in Greece or Italy or wherever is assessed rapidly and quickly transited to another country. But this breaks down because countries like the UK and a lot of its small minded people don't want to accept asylum seekers. these people are advocating a system where it is simply someone else's problem. and its disgusting that they tey to couch that in terms of concern for the welfare of those undertaking the dangerous journey.
No, the UK and other countries donít want to accept a large number of asylum seekers who usually arrive illegally. They rightly want to have control of their immigration system.
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Old 4th January 2019, 05:09 AM   #99
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Originally Posted by lionking View Post
As I said earlier, Australia takes more than its fair share of refugees.

But how would you run an immigration system? Itís tragic that so many people live in ****** countries, but the answer isnít that they be allowed to simply arrive in the 20 or so really desirable destinations and be granted asylum. The UK has the right to set conditions of its immigration system.
But no countries get to decide who are going to be refugees, when that will happen, nor their escape routes. Refugees are not tourists. Their travel is usually not optional.
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Old 4th January 2019, 05:23 AM   #100
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Originally Posted by lionking View Post
As I said earlier, Australia takes more than its fair share of refugees.

So a few more wonít make much of a difference, will they?
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Old 4th January 2019, 05:25 AM   #101
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Originally Posted by Mojo View Post
So a few more wonít make much of a difference, will they?
Worst. Argument. Ever.
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Old 4th January 2019, 05:48 AM   #102
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Originally Posted by Mojo View Post
So a few more wonít make much of a difference, will they?
Actually, our immigrants have made differences. Big differences! And all of them have been positive for the most part. But what most people forget is that Australia is a country founded by immigrants. Even our aboriginal history of 60,000 years plus starts with immigration from India and South East Asia. Now we are a very heterogeneous society, and most of us have migrant and refugee roots of some sort.

The thing is, anyone who has studied European history quickly learns that the forced movements of peoples across Europe due to war and other calamities has been happening for as long as its history has been recorded. Just about all major historical European events have involved refugees. So this latest influx from the Middle East is just the latest in a long series of similar events going back thousands of years. It simply isn't special at all except perhaps for its size. Although it is not the biggest refugee crisis to hit Europe in recent times - that happened 75 years ago.

Looking deeper, it can probably be shown empirically that refugee cultures influenced and blended with indigenous cultures across Europe, adding to them and enhancing them. Not always smoothly, of course. But the world became richer overall as a result. This is what gets overlooked when people start talking about and getting mired in restrictions and quotas.
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Old 4th January 2019, 06:00 AM   #103
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Originally Posted by Norman Alexander View Post
Actually, our immigrants have made differences. Big differences! And all of them have been positive for the most part. But what most people forget is that Australia is a country founded by immigrants. Even our aboriginal history of 60,000 years plus starts with immigration from India and South East Asia. Now we are a very heterogeneous society, and most of us have migrant and refugee roots of some sort.

The thing is, anyone who has studied European history quickly learns that the forced movements of peoples across Europe due to war and other calamities has been happening for as long as its history has been recorded. Just about all major historical European events have involved refugees. So this latest influx from the Middle East is just the latest in a long series of similar events going back thousands of years. It simply isn't special at all except perhaps for its size. Although it is not the biggest refugee crisis to hit Europe in recent times - that happened 75 years ago.

Looking deeper, it can probably be shown empirically that refugee cultures influenced and blended with indigenous cultures across Europe, adding to them and enhancing them. Not always smoothly, of course. But the world became richer overall as a result. This is what gets overlooked when people start talking about and getting mired in restrictions and quotas.
That's a very native position to take and ignores the elephant in the room, which is culture. Germans migrating to America or Irish migrating to Australia or Poles migrating to England cause little in the way of cultural friction. Assimilation is a given and overall positive contribution is almost assured. It's absurd to apply the same reasoning into a huge influx of Somalis or Eritreans or Pakistanis to England or Sweden or any other Western country. The figures don't look terrible when you take them together, but dig a little deeper and you'll see the huge contribution made by some immigrants is set off against the societal retardation of others. Encourage the good immigration, stop the bad, it's as simple as that.
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Old 4th January 2019, 06:21 AM   #104
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Originally Posted by Mojo View Post
So a few more won’t make much of a difference, will they?
Immigration has been a massive plus to Australia. We are a multicultural country. But I still contend that we have the right to control immigration. As does the UK
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Old 4th January 2019, 07:50 AM   #105
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Originally Posted by lionking View Post
No, the UK and other countries donít want to accept a large number of asylum seekers who usually arrive illegally. They rightly want to have control of their immigration system.
Asylum and immigration are two separate things often conflated by bigots.

You cannot with any credibility bomb/arm/support countries, refuse to deal with the consequences of that, take away any legal route for those people to get to your country and then complain that they enter by non standard means.
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Old 4th January 2019, 07:52 AM   #106
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Originally Posted by lionking View Post
Immigration has been a massive plus to Australia. We are a multicultural country. But I still contend that we have the right to control immigration. As does the UK
And an obligation to provide asylum to those who require it.
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Old 4th January 2019, 08:09 AM   #107
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Originally Posted by baron View Post
Yes, and for the nth time it's a great example of what happens when a country accepts practically every migrant who turns up on its borders.
But they did more than that - they actively encouraged migrants to settle in Germany, rather than the other EU countries they were already in.

Quote:
Ah, the old trick of selectively posting from a mystery source in the hope nobody will discover it and present the full facts.

Year Percent Rejected
2004 73.6%
2005 68.7%
2006 66.2%
2007 62.9%
2008 60.2%
2009 59.7%
2010 61.7%
2011 55.9%
2012 55.1%
2013 53.4%
2014 43.9%
2015 45.9%
2016 60.2%

https://researchbriefings.files.parl...03/SN01403.pdf

So we can see that in the 13 years to 2016, every year aside from 2014 and 2015 have seen majority rejections. The most recent year saw almost 2 in 3 applications rejected.

So I'll say again: Let's stick to the facts, which show more claims rejected than accepted.
Not really. This thread is about whether we have a "migrant crisis" and the validity of asylum claims now. Older figures are superfluous, while 2016's are incomplete. This is fairly obvious given that 2016 has initial decisions in only 61% of cases, compared to an average of 89% in the previous 12 years (range 84% to 94%). The number of appeals lodged in 2016 is also low compared to previous years.

Quote:
I would imagine that any delay is excessive when your life hangs in the balance.
Except that life is no longer hanging in the balance once a person reaches the country they are aiming for. Just how they arrive may also have a bearing on how quickly they claim asylum. I think you are reading too much into them not going in search of a police officer the minute they set foot on a British beach.
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Old 4th January 2019, 09:58 AM   #108
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Originally Posted by Archie Gemmill Goal View Post
Asylum and immigration are two separate things often conflated by bigots.

You cannot with any credibility bomb/arm/support countries, refuse to deal with the consequences of that, take away any legal route for those people to get to your country and then complain that they enter by non standard means.
What legal routes have been taken away from people trying to enter the UK?

When did the UK bomb / arm Pakistan? Somalia? Iran? Eritrea? Shall I go on?

Originally Posted by Information Analyst View Post
But they did more than that - they actively encouraged migrants to settle in Germany, rather than the other EU countries they were already in.
Well, they opened their borders and welcome anybody who wished to turn up. That's what the far left want for the UK, and they argue that the more immigration a country has, the more cultured and prosperous it will become. The best way to counter this, should common sense fail, is to look at the European countries that have been host to the largest influxes of non-EU immigrants in recent years, Germany being out in front, then Sweden, maybe France, etc. The situations of each may well differ but the overall the lessons can be learned.

In the case of Germany, Merkel was under no illusions that her actions would seriously harm her country. In 2010 she said

Originally Posted by Merkel
We are a country which, at the beginning of the 1960s, actually brought guest workers to Germany. Now they live with us and we lied to ourselves for a while, saying that they won't stay and that they will have disappeared again one day. That's not the reality. This multicultural approach -- saying that we simply live side by side and are happy about each other -- this approach has failed, utterly failed.
Nobody was thinking of the citizens of Germany when they opened their borders to the world.


Originally Posted by Information Analyst View Post
Not really. This thread is about whether we have a "migrant crisis" and the validity of asylum claims now.
We had moved on from that. I don't believe the UK has a migrant crisis, although it does need to toughen up on immigration.

Originally Posted by Information Analyst View Post
Older figures are superfluous, while 2016's are incomplete. This is fairly obvious given that 2016 has initial decisions in only 61% of cases, compared to an average of 89% in the previous 12 years (range 84% to 94%). The number of appeals lodged in 2016 is also low compared to previous years.
As I say, we can only go on the figures, and the figures show a majority rejection. The trend dipped in 2014 but is now returning to historic values.

Originally Posted by Information Analyst View Post
Except that life is no longer hanging in the balance once a person reaches the country they are aiming for. Just how they arrive may also have a bearing on how quickly they claim asylum. I think you are reading too much into them not going in search of a police officer the minute they set foot on a British beach.
I don't agree. If you're fleeing for your life, the first thing you want to do on reaching a place of safety is ensure you're not going to get sent back to where you came from, so you claim asylum as soon as you can. There are hundreds of charities and schemes to help people do this. If they fail to do this then we can only question their motives.
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Old 4th January 2019, 10:38 AM   #109
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Originally Posted by Archie Gemmill Goal View Post
And an obligation to provide asylum to those who require it.
Are you arguing for completely open UK borders? Where each and every of the 10s of millions of refugees can claim asylum if they manage the task of getting there?
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Old 4th January 2019, 11:32 AM   #110
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Originally Posted by Information Analyst View Post
No, but according to baron Germany is totally typical, and can be used to characterise the whole of Europe.
Much as I dislike supporting baron (IMO many of his views are generally racist) I don't think that is what he is implying.

AIUI, he is saying that Germany is the gold standard as an example of what will happen if mass immigration were allowed, e.g. totally open borders.
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Old 4th January 2019, 11:44 AM   #111
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Originally Posted by Archie Gemmill Goal View Post
And an obligation to provide asylum to those who require it.
And that's the catch isn't it....

Trying to work out if the asylum seekers you are processing right now, really are people in mortal danger in their own country due to political, religious or cultural persecution (i.e. refugees) or if they are simply looking for a better place to live (i.e. economic migrants) trying to short-cut the immigration system.

It cannot be easy to make that assessment.
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Old 4th January 2019, 11:52 AM   #112
Archie Gemmill Goal
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Originally Posted by lionking View Post
Are you arguing for completely open UK borders? Where each and every of the 10s of millions of refugees can claim asylum if they manage the task of getting there?
Claiming asylum and being granted it are different things. The UK has an obligation to accept legitimate asylum seekers in cooperation with other countries around the world.
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Old 4th January 2019, 11:53 AM   #113
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Originally Posted by lionking View Post
Itís not a sneaky argument, itís a legal one that is quite easy to look up.
https://www.refugeecouncil.org.uk/po...sylum_-_page_4

"There is no such thing as an Ďillegalí or Ďbogusí asylum seeker.
Under international law, anyone has the right to apply for asylum in any country that has signed the 1951 Convention and to remain there until the authorities have assessed their claim.

There is nothing in international law to say that refugees must claim asylum in the first country they reach.
A European regulation allows a country such as the UK to return an adult asylum seeker to the first European country they reached. This means that countries on the edge of Europe have responsibility for a lot more asylum seekers than others. Some of the countries through which people travel to get to Europe are not safe places and many have not signed the Refugee Convention, meaning that people who remain there will not get international protection and be able to rebuild their lives.

It is recognised in the 1951 Convention that people fleeing persecution may have to use irregular means in order to escape and claim asylum in another country Ė there is no legal way to travel to the UK for the specific purpose of seeking asylum. (United Nations 1951 Convention Relating to the Status of Refugees)"

https://www.freemovement.org.uk/refu...ord_on_the_law

"in the landmark case of R v Uxbridge Magistrates Court (ex parte Adimi) [1999] Imm AR 560 Lord Justice Simon Brown held that refugees did not have to claim asylum in countries through which they pass to reach safety in order to be protected by Article 31:"

"The Dublin Regulation system, which enables the UK and other signatories to return claimants back to EU countries through which they have passed (in certain circumstances, if their finger prints have been taken, for example), generally means that an asylum claim should in theory be decided within the EU in the country by which the refugee entered the EU. It is not an obligation imposed on refugees, but it does lead to removals to safe countries within the EU."
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Old 4th January 2019, 11:57 AM   #114
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
And that's the catch isn't it....

Trying to work out if the asylum seekers you are processing right now, really are people in mortal danger in their own country due to political, religious or cultural persecution (i.e. refugees) or if they are simply looking for a better place to live (i.e. economic migrants) trying to short-cut the immigration system.

It cannot be easy to make that assessment.
Well thats not a catch thats what the system is for and is designed to be able to so. But you assess an application once it has been made, you dont preemptively dismiss applicants based on prejudice.

And as a home Secretary you definitely don't go on TV to tell the world you will do everything in your power to make sure the claims are rejected and the people sent back.

Personally I would rather our politicians were less quick to drop bombs on people if they arent prepared to clean up the mess
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Old 4th January 2019, 11:57 AM   #115
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Originally Posted by lionking View Post
No, the UK and other countries donít want to accept a large number of asylum seekers who usually arrive illegally. They rightly want to have control of their immigration system.
How does an asylum seeker arrive legally in the UK? Is there some way that a person fleeing persecution can phone ahead and advise they are on their way?

Does buying a plane ticket and arriving at Heathrow make the entry into the UK legal, but other methods are illegal?
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Old 4th January 2019, 12:51 PM   #116
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Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
https://www.refugeecouncil.org.uk/po...sylum_-_page_4

"There is no such thing as an Ďillegalí or Ďbogusí asylum seeker.
Of course there is. If someone seeks asylum on bogus grounds they're a bogus asylum seeker. How else would you describe them?

Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
How does an asylum seeker arrive legally in the UK? Is there some way that a person fleeing persecution can phone ahead and advise they are on their way?

Does buying a plane ticket and arriving at Heathrow make the entry into the UK legal, but other methods are illegal?
Well, yeah. And it even applies to the likes of you and me. Next time you fly abroad, instead of travelling by train or plane, trying sneaking in on an unregistered dinghy or underneath a wagon. The border guards will enthusiastically detail your transgressions.
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Old 4th January 2019, 01:07 PM   #117
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It's only a migrant crisis in the sense that it might sway certain 'brexit' votes that might be coming up in the near future.

EDIT: Prod the people with 'crisis', then their mp has to think again etc.

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Old 4th January 2019, 01:17 PM   #118
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Originally Posted by baron View Post
Of course there is. If someone seeks asylum on bogus grounds they're a bogus asylum seeker. How else would you describe them?
I would only call them bogus once it has been shown their claim is bogus.

Quote:
Well, yeah. And it even applies to the likes of you and me. Next time you fly abroad, instead of travelling by train or plane, trying sneaking in on an unregistered dinghy or underneath a wagon. The border guards will enthusiastically detail your transgressions.
You mean that asylum seekers are legal if they can afford a ticket and enter by rail, ferry or plane, but illegal if they use other means to enter the country? What if they arrive by taxi?
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Old 4th January 2019, 01:23 PM   #119
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Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
I would only call them bogus once it has been shown their claim is bogus.
Me too, but you said there was no such thing as a bogus asylum seeker.

Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
You mean that asylum seekers are legal if they can afford a ticket and enter by rail, ferry or plane, but illegal if they use other means to enter the country? What if they arrive by taxi?
Taxi is great. You know this, I'm not sure why you're asking. A plane ticket from France to the UK costs a good deal less than £2K - £5K, which is what they pay to be smuggled across the channel in a rubber dingy, or a stolen trawler, or the £10K+ which is what many pay for their route up from Greece.
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Old 4th January 2019, 01:26 PM   #120
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Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
I would only call them bogus once it has been shown their claim is bogus.



You mean that asylum seekers are legal if they can afford a ticket and enter by rail, ferry or plane, but illegal if they use other means to enter the country? What if they arrive by taxi?
Someone without a valid visa to enter the UK would generally be denied boarding of a plane ferry or train in any case.

There is pretty much no legal way for.most if not all asylum seekers to get to the UK.
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