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Old 5th January 2019, 02:18 PM   #161
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post

Except that is only true when you cherry pick and highlight the bits that fit your argument, and selectively ignore those that do not.

Here is one that does not...
... but you ignore it because it doesn't fit in with your blinkered narrative.
With him it's black and white. Either you want open borders and permit literally anybody to enter the country, even terrorists and criminals, or you're a bigot who would rather families die in a desert than admit a single refugee.
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Old 5th January 2019, 02:54 PM   #162
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Originally Posted by baron View Post
Yes it is, if non-conventional means avoiding border control and processing. You could argue that if an asylum seeker called ahead from his dinghy and alerted UK authorities then that's a grey area, and it is unlikely any legal routes would be pursued, but essentially it's illegal to come in under the radar, even if the intent is there to present yourself soon after arrival. Of course, asylum seekers are rarely prosecuted for this because what would be the point, but it's still UK law (and the law of every other country in the world AFAIK).
Incorrect. You are again conflating HOW people arrive in a country with WHAT THEY DO AFTER ARRIVAL. Their means of travel is not a reason to automatically deny them the opportunity to "complete Customs clearance properly".

Let's take air travel. Millions of people arrive by air in the UK from overseas every day. By far the majority have "valid papers" and clear Customs successfully. However on occasion a few of them have no documentation and apply verbally to Customs officers for asylum. It is at this point that their quest for legal entry begins, not at any point up until then including finding their way to their starting airport, getting the money for a plane ticket, or getting on the flight.

Now let's consider someone tunneling under Donny's newly constructed wall steel slats picket fence from Mexico to the USA. As soon as they arrive on US soil they are then obliged to perform whatever US Customs clearance procedures are required to lawfully stay in the USA. That includes requesting asylum. Only then does their quest for legal entry begin. This is why many refugees from Mexico try to hand themselves over to US Border Guards as soon as possible. They have made it into the USA, now they have to try to stay there. It is then up to US authorities to do the right thing - proper housing and prompt processing...even if their asylum bid is ultimately unsuccessful.

In Australia, we are guilty of the worst offense of tying means of entry with potential success of asylum bid. It is policy that anyone arriving unannounced in our northern waters - our so-called "boat people" - are automatically assumed to be the work of people-smugglers and removed to indefinite offshore detention in what are essentially tropical concentration camps. The intention is the discourage others from trying the same route (it doesn't work, btw) although this is cloaked as "preventing drownings at sea". Once incarcerated, the asylum-seekers are left there for years without their asylum claims being processed, in order to further discourage other potential boat people. This has led to suicides and all sorts of other really bad PR for Australia. And it is frankly inhumane, worse than what is happening on the US southern border. Because the irony is that the vast majority of refugees now fly into Australian airports as tourists and then become visa-overstayers. And yet they don't get sent to our offshore detention centres, those we don't admit simply get deported, i.e. fail to meet asylum status just like some boat-people. Public opinion on this is divided, but the general feeling is offshore detention, i.e. discriminating on the basis of how an asylum seeker arrived, is inhumane and that there must be better answers.
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Old 5th January 2019, 03:14 PM   #163
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Originally Posted by Norman Alexander View Post
Incorrect. You are again conflating HOW people arrive in a country with WHAT THEY DO AFTER ARRIVAL. Their means of travel is not a reason to automatically deny them the opportunity to "complete Customs clearance properly".
That's an obligation, not an opportunity. It's you who is conflating method of entry with subsequent action. If entry is made illegally then it's illegal and nothing that happens afterwards can change that. Whether that illegality is acted upon or not, whether it is factored into the immigration process, whether it is recorded or simply ignored, that doesn't change the fact that it is an illegal act.

Originally Posted by Norman Alexander View Post
Let's take air travel. Millions of people arrive by air in the UK from overseas every day. By far the majority have "valid papers" and clear Customs successfully. However on occasion a few of them have no documentation and apply verbally to Customs officers for asylum. It is at this point that their quest for legal entry begins, not at any point up until then including finding their way to their starting airport, getting the money for a plane ticket, or getting on the flight.
That's not the same thing. They have passed the checks at the other side and are presenting themselves to customs; all that is legal. If they don't have the required documentation to stay that's another issue entirely. If they are found to have false documents then that's potentially a criminal issue, although there is provision (more accurately a recommendation) in the charter to waive legal proceedings in these cases if it can be shown that the refugee had no other option but to fly on forged documents. In any case, the point is that this method of entry is not illegal, but trying to get in on false documents may well be.

Originally Posted by Norman Alexander View Post
Now let's consider someone tunneling under Donny's newly constructed wall steel slats picket fence from Mexico to the USA. As soon as they arrive on US soil they are then obliged to perform whatever US Customs clearance procedures are required to lawfully stay in the USA. That includes requesting asylum. Only then does their quest for legal entry begin.
No it doesn't. They have already entered at the point, and they have done so illegally. What then begins is their quest for asylum. It's perfectly possible for someone to enter a country illegal and become a legal immigrant, or asylum seeker.

Originally Posted by Norman Alexander View Post
This is why many refugees from Mexico try to hand themselves over to US Border Guards as soon as possible. They have made it into the USA, now they have to try to stay there. It is then up to US authorities to do the right thing - proper housing and prompt processing...even if their asylum bid is ultimately unsuccessful.
Indeed. That doesn't alter the fact that their entry may have been illegal.

Originally Posted by Norman Alexander View Post
In Australia, we are guilty of the worst offense of tying means of entry with potential success of asylum bid. It is policy that anyone arriving unannounced in our northern waters - our so-called "boat people" - are automatically assumed to be the work of people-smugglers and removed to indefinite offshore detention in what are essentially tropical concentration camps. The intention is the discourage others from trying the same route (it doesn't work, btw) although this is cloaked as "preventing drownings at sea". Once incarcerated, the asylum-seekers are left there for years without their asylum claims being processed, in order to further discourage other potential boat people. This has led to suicides and all sorts of other really bad PR for Australia. And it is frankly inhumane, worse than what is happening on the US southern border. Because the irony is that the vast majority of refugees now fly into Australian airports as tourists and then become visa-overstayers. And yet they don't get sent to our offshore detention centres, those we don't admit simply get deported, i.e. fail to meet asylum status just like some boat-people. Public opinion on this is divided, but the general feeling is offshore detention, i.e. discriminating on the basis of how an asylum seeker arrived, is inhumane and that there must be better answers.
Indeed, it's a poor method. That doesn't alter the fact that entering a country using non-approved methods is illegal.
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Old 5th January 2019, 04:07 PM   #164
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Originally Posted by baron View Post
With him it's black and white. Either you want open borders and permit literally anybody to enter the country, even terrorists and criminals, or you're a bigot who would rather families die in a desert than admit a single refugee.

Whereas with some it’s precisely the other way round.
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Old 5th January 2019, 06:14 PM   #165
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Originally Posted by baron View Post
That's an obligation, not an opportunity. It's you who is conflating method of entry with subsequent action. If entry is made illegally then it's illegal and nothing that happens afterwards can change that. Whether that illegality is acted upon or not, whether it is factored into the immigration process, whether it is recorded or simply ignored, that doesn't change the fact that it is an illegal act.
There is no such thing as an illegal ENTRY method. The illegality is in failing to meet STAY requirements AFTER entry. Those are separate things. In the case of air travel, traveling by aircraft does not in itself constitute "illegal entry". Failure to meet entry requirements AFTER YOU LAND is the illegality. It is perfectly OK to not even make it out of the airport under certain circumstances, but that is after you get off the plane.

Quote:
That's not the same thing. They have passed the checks at the other side and are presenting themselves to customs; all that is legal. If they don't have the required documentation to stay that's another issue entirely. If they are found to have false documents then that's potentially a criminal issue, although there is provision (more accurately a recommendation) in the charter to waive legal proceedings in these cases if it can be shown that the refugee had no other option but to fly on forged documents. In any case, the point is that this method of entry is not illegal, but trying to get in on false documents may well be.
What checks at the other side? And in what way does that matter at the port of entry? They only do exit checks for their own countries. Do you expect foreign countries to do entry checks for the UK if that is the destination? There is no guarantee that any exit checks for anything will be done at all. Perhaps they will be glad to be rid of criminals to somewhere else.



Quote:
No it doesn't. They have already entered at the point, and they have done so illegally. What then begins is their quest for asylum. It's perfectly possible for someone to enter a country illegal without meeting residence requirements and become a legal immigrant, or asylum seeker.
No they haven't. I fixed it for you.


Quote:
Indeed, it's a poor method. That doesn't alter the fact that entering a country using non-approved methods is illegal.
Is there a list of approved methods published? Where would I find those?
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Old 6th January 2019, 01:42 AM   #166
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Originally Posted by baron View Post
T.... That doesn't alter the fact that entering a country using non-approved methods is illegal.
How does someone seeking asylum from Syria arrive in the UK legally?

Please go through the process you expect them to follow.
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Old 6th January 2019, 02:03 AM   #167
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Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
How does someone seeking asylum from Syria arrive in the UK legally?

Please go through the process you expect them to follow.
Really? Through the first country they arrive in outside Syria where they seek asylum and then apply for a visa to immigrate to the UK.

Have you not seen posts here about the difference between asylum and immigration? You are all over the place. You seem to be arguing that everyone has the right to seek asylum in the country of their choice, while also knowing this is simply not possible.
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Old 6th January 2019, 02:11 AM   #168
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Originally Posted by lionking View Post
Really? Through the first country they arrive in outside Syria where they seek asylum and then apply for a visa to immigrate to the UK.
To clarify, how is it possible for a Syrian to arrive legally in the UK and then claim asylum?

Quote:
Have you not seen posts here about the difference between asylum and immigration? You are all over the place. You seem to be arguing that everyone has the right to seek asylum in the country of their choice, while also knowing this is simply not possible.
I have been discussing the issues around claiming asylum. I have not been dealing with general immigration issues.

I do think and there are laws which say that people do have the right to claim asylum where they want to. Obviously, when it comes to the practicalities, the possibilities vary significantly.
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Old 6th January 2019, 03:29 AM   #169
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Originally Posted by Norman Alexander View Post
There is no such thing as an illegal ENTRY method.
You keep saying that. For example, the US law is that

Originally Posted by Wiki
The illegal entry of non-nationals into the United States is a misdemeanor according to the Immigration and Nationality Act of 1965, which prohibits non-nationals from entering or attempting to enter the United States at any time or place which has not been designated by an immigration officer, and also prohibits non-nationals from eluding inspection by immigration officers.
The same is true for most countries although the details vary. That's why truck drivers into the UK can be fined £2500 per person if immigrants are found to be on board their wagons. The notion that these people might leap out and claim asylum is irrelevant, the crime is solely based upon the method of entry, not what they do once they're here, and they are deemed illegal immigrants. They can become legal by going through the proper channels or validating their documents (unlikely) but that's after they arrive.

Anyhow, there's not much further we can go on this. The fact is that issues of legality are often determined by the method of entry (a dinghy, under a wagon, etc.).
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Old 6th January 2019, 03:32 AM   #170
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Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
I do think and there are laws which say that people do have the right to claim asylum where they want to. Obviously, when it comes to the practicalities, the possibilities vary significantly.
Sorry, utter rubbish. You are saying that refugees can arrive in, say, Vietnam and claim asylum in Canada? ********.
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Old 6th January 2019, 03:39 AM   #171
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Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
To clarify, how is it possible for a Syrian to arrive legally in the UK and then claim asylum?
He just said. Get a visa, fly here and claim asylum. Thousands have done it already. Why would a Syrian not be able to do this? These aren't undocumented people who live in mud huts, they're just ordinary people who have been displaced due to war. Their travel options are no worse than yours or mine. Furthermore, Syrian refugees have been selected directly from the over-the-border camps and I believe that's still ongoing.
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Old 6th January 2019, 04:44 AM   #172
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Originally Posted by lionking View Post
Really? Through the first country they arrive in outside Syria where they seek asylum and then apply for a visa to immigrate to the UK.
Their application would be rejected as they wouldn't meet the requirements to immigrate. So there is no legal way.

Quote:
Have you not seen posts here about the difference between asylum and immigration? You are all over the place. You seem to be arguing that everyone has the right to seek asylum in the country of their choice, while also knowing this is simply not possible.
Of course it's 'possible'. it may not be the preferred method or ideal but its certainly possible.
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Old 6th January 2019, 04:45 AM   #173
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Originally Posted by lionking View Post
Sorry, utter rubbish. You are saying that refugees can arrive in, say, Vietnam and claim asylum in Canada? ********.
No he is saying that someone who wants to claim asylum in Canada can travel to Canada and claim asylum there. They don't have to claim asylum in Pakistan just because they pass through it to get to Canada.
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Old 6th January 2019, 07:04 AM   #174
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Originally Posted by lionking View Post
Sorry, utter rubbish. You are saying that refugees can arrive in, say, Vietnam and claim asylum in Canada? ********.
If someone fleeing from China managed to get to Vietnam, I suppose they could go to the Canadian embassy and try and claim asylum there. How that would go down with the Canadians, I do not know.

But someone fleeing China may not be safe in Vietnam.
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Old 6th January 2019, 07:12 AM   #175
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Originally Posted by baron View Post
He just said. Get a visa, fly here and claim asylum. Thousands have done it already.
Can you evidence that is how they did it? They contact the UK, ask for a visa stating the purpose of the visit is to claim asylum and then they get a plane ticket in Syria and the Syrian authorities just let them leave?

Quote:
Why would a Syrian not be able to do this?
Because it is a dictatorship where those in danger from the government and who need asylum are more likely to be killed than allowed out the country on a visa.

Quote:
These aren't undocumented people who live in mud huts, they're just ordinary people who have been displaced due to war. Their travel options are no worse than yours or mine. Furthermore, Syrian refugees have been selected directly from the over-the-border camps and I believe that's still ongoing.
That is refugees, which is different from the asylum seekers I have been discussing. I would differentiate between those who have left because their house had been blown up and they had no work due to the war, from those whom Assad wants to have killed.
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Old 6th January 2019, 07:37 AM   #176
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Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
Can you evidence that is how they did it? They contact the UK, ask for a visa stating the purpose of the visit is to claim asylum and then they get a plane ticket in Syria and the Syrian authorities just let them leave?
You'd have to ask them. The fact is that thousands have done it, hundreds of thousands if you count those who managed to get asylum in other EU countries.

Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
Because it is a dictatorship where those in danger from the government and who need asylum are more likely to be killed than allowed out the country on a visa.
Millions of people have left Syria in the past few years.

Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
That is refugees, which is different from the asylum seekers I have been discussing. I would differentiate between those who have left because their house had been blown up and they had no work due to the war, from those whom Assad wants to have killed.
I don't see as it makes a difference. If a bomb's heading towards you it's a moot point whether it's intentional or accidental.
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Old 6th January 2019, 07:46 AM   #177
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Originally Posted by baron View Post
You'd have to ask them. The fact is that thousands have done it....
So you don't know, but you are certain it is possible for a Syrian in Syria to get a visa to claim asylum in the UK and with that visa board a plane in Syria and fly directly to the UK.



I cannot even find any evidence of normal commercial flights that go directly to and from the UK and Syria.

I think you are talking crap.
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Old 6th January 2019, 08:07 AM   #178
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Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
So you don't know, but you are certain it is possible for a Syrian in Syria to get a visa to claim asylum in the UK and with that visa board a plane in Syria and fly directly to the UK.

Who said they have to board a plane in Syria? Now you're making things up. We have 11,000 Syrian refugees in this country as we speak. Not one of them came across the Channel in a dinghy or under a wagon. Now you might want to pretend they're not here and that it's impossible for them to be here, but the fact is they are here and as such, it's clear that it is perfectly possible for Syrians to be granted asylum in the UK after a successful and legal application process.

Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
I cannot even find any evidence of normal commercial flights that go directly to and from the UK and Syria.

I think you are talking crap.
You have no idea what you're talking about, do you?
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Old 6th January 2019, 08:59 AM   #179
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Wait, wasn't it yesterday that someone poo-poo'd the idea of getting a visa, immigrating, and then suddenly wanting an asylum?

Remember all that earnest humanitarian concern over people in boats?

Now, when discussing "how to legally claim asylum" all the empathy for this poor human in danger is a distant second to important points of bureaucratic procedural minutiae.

I mean, of course people are just going to hang out in tent city slums for years, certainly no impulse to "take matters into their own hands" will enter into anyone's thinking. It is quite rational to believe that Syrian A being rejected because his 3rd cousin's father-in-law is part of the FSA is just going to glibly accept that decision and go find a rock to crawl under and die quietly so as to not inconvenience anyone.
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Old 6th January 2019, 09:06 AM   #180
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Originally Posted by Delphic Oracle View Post
Wait, wasn't it yesterday that someone poo-poo'd the idea of getting a visa, immigrating, and then suddenly wanting an asylum?
No.

Originally Posted by Delphic Oracle View Post
Remember all that earnest humanitarian concern over people in boats?

Now, when discussing "how to legally claim asylum" all the empathy for this poor human in danger is a distant second to important points of bureaucratic procedural minutiae.

I mean, of course people are just going to hang out in tent city slums for years, certainly no impulse to "take matters into their own hands" will enter into anyone's thinking. It is quite rational to believe that Syrian A being rejected because his 3rd cousin's father-in-law is part of the FSA is just going to glibly accept that decision and go find a rock to crawl under and die quietly so as to not inconvenience anyone.
Perhaps if you made an argument rather than engage in an unbalanced rant you'd get further.
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Old 6th January 2019, 09:30 AM   #181
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Originally Posted by baron View Post
No.



Perhaps if you made an argument rather than engage in an unbalanced rant you'd get further.
Perhaps if you engaged in good faith rather than exchange barbs and feign ignorance you'd get further.
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Old 6th January 2019, 09:32 AM   #182
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Originally Posted by Delphic Oracle View Post
Perhaps if you engaged in good faith rather than exchange barbs and feign ignorance you'd get further.
That's the answer I expected.
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Old 6th January 2019, 09:37 AM   #183
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Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
So you don't know, but you are certain it is possible for a Syrian in Syria to get a visa to claim asylum in the UK and with that visa board a plane in Syria and fly directly to the UK.



I cannot even find any evidence of normal commercial flights that go directly to and from the UK and Syria.

I think you are talking crap.
Its probably not incredibly easy to get a visa either, what with the Consulate being closed and all. And that's without mentioning that they would have to commit visa fraud to obtain one anyway.
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Old 6th January 2019, 10:23 AM   #184
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Originally Posted by Norman Alexander View Post
Let's take air travel. Millions of people arrive by air in the UK from overseas every day. By far the majority have "valid papers" and clear Customs successfully. However on occasion a few of them have no documentation and apply verbally to Customs officers for asylum. It is at this point that their quest for legal entry begins, not at any point up until then including finding their way to their starting airport, getting the money for a plane ticket, or getting on the flight..

Really? They must do things differently in your neck of the woods, because here in NZ (and I'm sure in Australia as well) if you don't have a valid visa for your destination, the airline will not permit you to board the aircraft. The only exception is if your destination country has visa-free entry to citizens of your country, Same applies to shipping companies... the won't board you without a visa
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Old 6th January 2019, 10:33 AM   #185
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Originally Posted by lionking View Post
Really? Through the first country they arrive in outside Syria where they seek asylum and then apply for a visa to immigrate to the UK.
Yep, this is exactly the way refugees and asylum seeker come to NZ. With one or two exceptions, they do not simply turn up on our shores.

There was one exception a few years back when some people arrived on an aircraft after having destroyed their passports and documentation on the flight.
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Old 6th January 2019, 11:17 AM   #186
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Originally Posted by baron View Post
If entry is made illegally then it's illegal and nothing that happens afterwards can change that. Whether that illegality is acted upon or not, whether it is factored into the immigration process, whether it is recorded or simply ignored, that doesn't change the fact that it is an illegal act.
I asked you yesterday to cite the law being broken, also for a clarification as to why you have think "fit young men" (a phrase you use repeatedly) are inherently a problem. I'm still waiting for answers to both.
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Old 6th January 2019, 11:32 AM   #187
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Originally Posted by Information Analyst View Post
I asked you yesterday to cite the law being broken, also for a clarification as to why you have think "fit young men" (a phrase you use repeatedly) are inherently a problem. I'm still waiting for answers to both.
The dog ate it, sir, please don't give me a detention!

Maybe if you debated instead of badgering me with moronic questions you'd begin to understand the basics of the topic. Then again, I have my doubts.
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Old 6th January 2019, 12:06 PM   #188
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
Really? They must do things differently in your neck of the woods, because here in NZ (and I'm sure in Australia as well) if you don't have a valid visa for your destination, the airline will not permit you to board the aircraft. The only exception is if your destination country has visa-free entry to citizens of your country, Same applies to shipping companies... the won't board you without a visa
it was at one point at least known for asylum seekers to destroy their paperwork between landing and getting to passport control by flushing them down the toilet.
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Old 6th January 2019, 12:07 PM   #189
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
Yep, this is exactly the way refugees and asylum seeker come to NZ. With one or two exceptions, they do not simply turn up on our shores.

There was one exception a few years back when some people arrived on an aircraft after having destroyed their passports and documentation on the flight.
this is the way the tiny handful of refugees NZ decides to admit by this process arrive. now what about the rest?
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Old 6th January 2019, 02:03 PM   #190
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Originally Posted by baron View Post
The dog ate it, sir, please don't give me a detention!

Maybe if you debated instead of badgering me with moronic questions you'd begin to understand the basics of the topic. Then again, I have my doubts.
So you can't cite the legislation you imply is broken by people seeking non-conventional entry to the UK, nor can you explain why you are so obsessed with "fit young men" specifically doing so? If you can't - or won't - answer such simple questions, you're clearly not really interested in debate.
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Old 6th January 2019, 02:13 PM   #191
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Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
How does someone seeking asylum from Syria arrive in the UK legally?

Please go through the process you expect them to follow.
1) Get on a plane to Heathrow OR get on the ferry to Dover OR or row across the Channel in a little row-boat. Emulating Bleriot in reverse will also suffice. Do dirigibles still run these days?

2) On arrival, immediately advise a UK Customs and Immigration officer they wish to seek asylum. This is the critical bit related to illegality, but it is unrelated to part (1).


You MAY be confusing the request for asylum with the granting of asylum. They are two separate things. And I have not said that all asylum-seekers will be successful. That's where any illegalities arise.
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Old 6th January 2019, 02:31 PM   #192
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Oh, what's this?

Saudi woman 'trapped at Bangkok airport trying to flee family'

After all, when you do it the legal way, no problems!
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Old 6th January 2019, 02:55 PM   #193
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Originally Posted by Norman Alexander View Post
1) Get on a plane to Heathrow OR get on the ferry to Dover OR or row across the Channel in a little row-boat. Emulating Bleriot in reverse will also suffice. Do dirigibles still run these days?

2) On arrival, immediately advise a UK Customs and Immigration officer they wish to seek asylum. This is the critical bit related to illegality, but it is unrelated to part (1).
Arghhhhhhh!!!!

Originally Posted by immigration_act_1971
Section 24) Illegal entry and similar offences.

(1) A person who is not [F1a British citizen] shall be guilty of an offence punishable on summary conviction with a fine of not more than [F2[F3level 5]on the standard scale] or with imprisonment for not more than six months, or with both, in any of the following cases:—

(a) if contrary to this Act he knowingly enters the United Kingdom in breach of a deportation order or without leave;
Enters the UK without leave.

That means the instant the person crosses the border, regardless of their intent, their motives or anything else, they have committed a crime. They will commit a further crime if they then misrepresent their situation or provide false documents, or overstay after being granted leave (should that happen).

Now I suppose you could argue that the guy clinging to the underside of a wagon or bouncing around in a dinghy on the high seas has all the required paperwork and just wants to add spice to the experience, but that tends not to be the case.
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Old 6th January 2019, 05:22 PM   #194
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Originally Posted by Archie Gemmill Goal View Post
this is the way the tiny handful of refugees NZ decides to admit by this process arrive. now what about the rest?
Jesus H. Tap-dancing Christ!! Can you actually read? THERE ARE NO "THE REST"!

Asylum seekers and refugees DO NOT simply turn up in this country or row a boat from Myanmar (or wherever) to NZ.

THEY ARE BROUGHT HERE BY THE NZ GOVERNMENT!

Honestly. Debating with you is like bashing my head against a brick wall.
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Old 7th January 2019, 02:34 AM   #195
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Originally Posted by baron View Post
Who said they have to board a plane in Syria?
You, when you said they should have to claim asylum in the first country they get to.

Quote:
Now you're making things up. We have 11,000 Syrian refugees in this country as we speak. Not one of them came across the Channel in a dinghy or under a wagon.
How do you know that?

Quote:
Now you might want to pretend they're not here
Which is you lying about what I have been saying.

Quote:
and that it's impossible for them to be here, but the fact is they are here and as such, it's clear that it is perfectly possible for Syrians to be granted asylum in the UK after a successful and legal application process.



You have no idea what you're talking about, do you?
How did they legally get into the UK? You now have them flying in from other countries, yet you were saying it is illegal for them to get into the UK from another country where they could claim asylum.

My point stands, they do not need to and may not be able to enter the UK through a legal method and it is wrong to demand they do something that is not possible.
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Old 7th January 2019, 02:37 AM   #196
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
Jesus H. Tap-dancing Christ!! Can you actually read? THERE ARE NO "THE REST"!

Asylum seekers and refugees DO NOT simply turn up in this country or row a boat from Myanmar (or wherever) to NZ.

THEY ARE BROUGHT HERE BY THE NZ GOVERNMENT!

Honestly. Debating with you is like bashing my head against a brick wall.
The rest refers to the millions currently sitting in camps around the world or in the case of this thread risking life and limb to get into countries around the world that trwat them as invaders.

That this never occured to you is telling I think.
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Old 7th January 2019, 02:37 AM   #197
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The point is that it is not possible to get directly to NZ or the UK by a legal method. Asylum seekers have to travel through other countries first. So it is wrong to demand they can only claim asylum in the first country they get to and should not be allowed to claim asylum in the country they want to do to.
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Old 7th January 2019, 02:40 AM   #198
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Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
You, when you said they should have to claim asylum in the first country they get to.



How do you know that?



Which is you lying about what I have been saying.



How did they legally get into the UK? You now have them flying in from other countries, yet you were saying it is illegal for them to get into the UK from another country where they could claim asylum.

My point stands, they do not need to and may not be able to enter the UK through a legal method and it is wrong to demand they do something that is not possible.
Also the past is not thr present. it is pefectly possible for thousands of people to have arrived in the UK via routes which are no longer possible as the government has been switching them off.

The UK has also opted out of taking their quota via EU programs.
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Old 7th January 2019, 02:40 AM   #199
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Originally Posted by Norman Alexander View Post
1) Get on a plane to Heathrow OR get on the ferry to Dover OR or row across the Channel in a little row-boat. Emulating Bleriot in reverse will also suffice. Do dirigibles still run these days?

2) On arrival, immediately advise a UK Customs and Immigration officer they wish to seek asylum. This is the critical bit related to illegality, but it is unrelated to part (1).


You MAY be confusing the request for asylum with the granting of asylum. They are two separate things. And I have not said that all asylum-seekers will be successful. That's where any illegalities arise.
There are no direct flights from Syria to Heathrow or Syrian ferries to Dover. Asylum seekers to the UK HAVE to go through other countries first.

It is therefore wrong when some demand asylum seekers can only be accepted if they arrive directly and legally from their home country.
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Old 7th January 2019, 02:45 AM   #200
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Originally Posted by Archie Gemmill Goal View Post
Also the past is not thr present. it is pefectly possible for thousands of people to have arrived in the UK via routes which are no longer possible as the government has been switching them off.

The UK has also opted out of taking their quota via EU programs.
AFAIK, the bulk of Syrian refugees in the UK came from refugee camps in Turkey and Lebanon, where the UK had government representatives who processed applicants and then arranged transport.
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