ISF Logo   IS Forum
Forum Index Register Members List Events Mark Forums Read Help

Go Back   International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Social Issues & Current Events
 


Welcome to the International Skeptics Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today.
Reply
Old 2nd January 2019, 07:01 AM   #41
Thermal
Philosopher
 
Thermal's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Location: NJ USA. We Don't Like You Either
Posts: 7,065
Ok, been trying to figure out why the forum interest in white power playlists. Seems that not only are there different kinds of skinheads but some didn't beat minorities with baseball bats. Actually, I should say there were different kinds. AFAICT, an American skin is still what I know them as: a violent white supremacist.

Looking at the WP page (still trying to wrap my head around non-nazi skins), it seems they didn't actually do anything, it was more a style and fashion thing?
__________________
"Half of what he said meant something else, and the other half didn't mean anything at all" -Rosencrantz, on Hamlet
Thermal is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 2nd January 2019, 07:16 AM   #42
Childlike Empress
Ewige Blumenkraft
 
Childlike Empress's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Ivory Tower
Posts: 16,631
Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
(still trying to wrap my head around non-nazi skins)

There are even organized SkinHeads Against Racial Prejudice.
Childlike Empress is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 2nd January 2019, 07:16 AM   #43
luchog
Neo-Post-Retro-Revivalist
 
luchog's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: The Emerald City
Posts: 15,291
Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
So it's the precence of the thread itself that you are objecting to and not whether or not the incident is a racist incident?

Might I suggest you use the forum function to ignore threads you're disinterested in so that you don't feel obliged to inform the rest of us every time?

Because it's not actually true that they're uninterested in the subject, despite their protestations. The problem is that they're very interested in the subject, and even more interested in being able to control any and all discourse regarding the subject. Complaints such as this are a distraction tactic, used to shift the discussion away from the subject of racism, since they are unable to refute it directly, and to indirectly personalize the debate and thus divert attention from the real issue at hand.

It's a variation of "arguing the person" rather than the topic, where the "person" is the larger group seeking to discuss the topic; as well as a moderately more subtle "shouting down" tactic. By bogging down the thread in what is essentially administrative nitpicking, they've effectively hijacked the thread and stifled useful debate, or at least drowned it out with noise.
__________________
"All opinions are not equal. Some are a very great deal more robust, sophisticated and well supported in logic and argument than others." -- Douglas Adams
"The absence of evidence might indeed not be evidence of absence, but it's a pretty good start." -- PhantomWolf
"Let's see the buggers figure that one out." - John Lennon
luchog is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 2nd January 2019, 07:18 AM   #44
carlitos
"más divertido"
 
carlitos's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 19,676
Originally Posted by varwoche View Post
Yes, I did. While the article implies that "hardcore skinheads" generally listen to genres other than metal, they listen to enough metal to warrant mention, at least according to the writer.
In the context of that article, "hardcore" refers to the music listened to by the skinheads, not that this type of skinhead is a harder-core skinhead than some less hardcore skinhead. It's a little vague, but that might have been the source of any confusion that followed.

I'm of the opinion that the racist gentlemen were merely expressing their dismay for Phil Collins co-opting their hairstyle.
carlitos is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 2nd January 2019, 07:20 AM   #45
luchog
Neo-Post-Retro-Revivalist
 
luchog's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: The Emerald City
Posts: 15,291
Originally Posted by Childlike Empress View Post
There are even organized SkinHeads Against Racial Prejudice.

Too bad SHARPs are still raging homophobes/transphobes.
__________________
"All opinions are not equal. Some are a very great deal more robust, sophisticated and well supported in logic and argument than others." -- Douglas Adams
"The absence of evidence might indeed not be evidence of absence, but it's a pretty good start." -- PhantomWolf
"Let's see the buggers figure that one out." - John Lennon
luchog is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 2nd January 2019, 07:29 AM   #46
Dave Rogers
Bandaged ice that stampedes inexpensively through a scribbled morning waving necessary ankles
 
Dave Rogers's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Cair Paravel, according to XKCD
Posts: 28,835
Originally Posted by carlitos View Post
I'm of the opinion that the racist gentlemen were merely expressing their dismay for Phil Collins co-opting their hairstyle.
I suspect it would be more accurate to say that their hairstyle co-opted Phil Collins.

Dave
__________________
Me: So what you're saying is that, if the load carrying ability of the lower structure is reduced to the point where it can no longer support the load above it, it will collapse without a jolt, right?

Tony Szamboti: That is right
Dave Rogers is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 2nd January 2019, 07:45 AM   #47
Thermal
Philosopher
 
Thermal's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Location: NJ USA. We Don't Like You Either
Posts: 7,065
Originally Posted by Childlike Empress View Post
There are even organized SkinHeads Against Racial Prejudice.
Damn. My apologies to you, deadrose, and anyone else for an earlier comment I posted about skins being vermin. I honestly never heard of a skinhead as anything but a particularly violent neo-nazi who liked shaving their head.

There was another similar group called Straight Edge that I recall, I think mostly interested in no drugs or racism, but adopted a hardcore punk look and music tastes. They used to be confused with skins here on the East Coast USA.
__________________
"Half of what he said meant something else, and the other half didn't mean anything at all" -Rosencrantz, on Hamlet
Thermal is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 2nd January 2019, 07:53 AM   #48
Thermal
Philosopher
 
Thermal's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Location: NJ USA. We Don't Like You Either
Posts: 7,065
Originally Posted by luchog View Post
Because it's not actually true that they're uninterested in the subject, despite their protestations. The problem is that they're very interested in the subject, and even more interested in being able to control any and all discourse regarding the subject. Complaints such as this are a distraction tactic, used to shift the discussion away from the subject of racism, since they are unable to refute it directly, and to indirectly personalize the debate and thus divert attention from the real issue at hand.

It's a variation of "arguing the person" rather than the topic, where the "person" is the larger group seeking to discuss the topic; as well as a moderately more subtle "shouting down" tactic. By bogging down the thread in what is essentially administrative nitpicking, they've effectively hijacked the thread and stifled useful debate, or at least drowned it out with noise.
Some of us are interested in the subject, but we can't seem to get a discussion going about it without being insulted. It's a bit frustrating.

Look at this LWB OP: mostly a discussion of musical tastes of unrelated groups that used to call themselves by the same name. Does that discussion have anything to do with the topic of a racist beating of a deejay?
__________________
"Half of what he said meant something else, and the other half didn't mean anything at all" -Rosencrantz, on Hamlet
Thermal is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 2nd January 2019, 08:17 AM   #49
baron
Guest
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 8,627
Originally Posted by luchog View Post
Because it's not actually true that they're uninterested in the subject, despite their protestations. The problem is that they're very interested in the subject, and even more interested in being able to control any and all discourse regarding the subject. Complaints such as this are a distraction tactic, used to shift the discussion away from the subject of racism, since they are unable to refute it directly, and to indirectly personalize the debate and thus divert attention from the real issue at hand.

It's a variation of "arguing the person" rather than the topic
baron is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 2nd January 2019, 08:25 AM   #50
Gilbert Syndrome
Philosopher
 
Gilbert Syndrome's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Liverpool, UK
Posts: 6,095
Originally Posted by Childlike Empress View Post
Couldn't believe that any skinheads would want to listen to heavy metal, so I checked it out and from a linked article in the linked article, by the same author:




So this seems to be a terrible misunderstanding where the DJ thought "hard stuff" meant Heavy Metal meant Iron Maiden and Black Sabbath, with the unavoidable consequences...

I have only a very vague idea about what these "while [skin color]" threads are about and only clicked on this one because of the author. But yeah, no skinheads listen to heavy metal, that's kind of a certainty.
Not to quibble, but a lot of skinheads who were into right-leaning Punk and Thrash, eventually followed some of those bands into more rock-driven metal. A lot of Thrash bands eventually grew into more of a hair-metal style thing. "Heavy Metal" can be a broad spectrum. Plus, some skinheads are so idiotic that they listen to all manner of things.
__________________
Generic proclamation of positivity:

Scouse saying - Go 'ed, is right, nice one, boss, well in, sound, belter, made up.

Usage: 'Go 'ed, lad, get us an ale in, nice one.'
Gilbert Syndrome is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 2nd January 2019, 08:26 AM   #51
varwoche
Penultimate Amazing
 
varwoche's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Puget Sound
Posts: 12,686
Originally Posted by carlitos View Post
In the context of that article, "hardcore" refers to the music listened to by the skinheads, not that this type of skinhead is a harder-core skinhead than some less hardcore skinhead. It's a little vague, but that might have been the source of any confusion that followed.

I'm of the opinion that the racist gentlemen were merely expressing their dismay for Phil Collins co-opting their hairstyle.
To be clear, my aim here is to mock people who worship labels, and who claim to possess One True Definition, none of which is relevant here.

The definition of "skinhead" that most Americans are familiar with, a definition embraced by the perps themselves (according to the article), relating to an incident that occurred in America ... that definition makes perfect sense in this context. The diversionary, off-topic posturing about the history of skinheads is simply diversionary, off-topic posturing.

The debate between CE and baron about who and who is not a real skinhead is utterly priceless.
__________________
To survive election season on a skeptics forum, one must understand Hymie-the-Robot.

Last edited by varwoche; 2nd January 2019 at 08:33 AM.
varwoche is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 2nd January 2019, 08:28 AM   #52
theprestige
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 33,197
Originally Posted by luchog View Post
Because the most important take-away from this incident is that people are incorrectly associating subcultures and musical genres.
I'm not sure there is an important take away from this incident.
theprestige is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 2nd January 2019, 08:30 AM   #53
Gilbert Syndrome
Philosopher
 
Gilbert Syndrome's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Liverpool, UK
Posts: 6,095
Originally Posted by Childlike Empress View Post
Far from all "white power types" are skinheads and far from all skinheads are "white power types". Skinhead "culture" - both the original one and the white-power infiltrated kind - and heavy metal are pretty antagonistic.
Skinheads of the 80's were basically just so inept that they'd latch onto any band in the LA area and attend their shows whilst wearing Nazi/white power slogans. So many non-racist bands suffered these idiots at their shows, bands like TSOL, SSD, Dead Kennedy's (who received backlash for having a black drummer) etc.

Many people mistake the DK track "Nazi Punks **** Off" as being an anti-racist song, though it's more about elitism in the Punk community.
__________________
Generic proclamation of positivity:

Scouse saying - Go 'ed, is right, nice one, boss, well in, sound, belter, made up.

Usage: 'Go 'ed, lad, get us an ale in, nice one.'
Gilbert Syndrome is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 2nd January 2019, 08:32 AM   #54
JoeMorgue
Self Employed
Remittance Man
 
JoeMorgue's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Florida
Posts: 17,052
And we've successfully been Bobbed into talking about a hijack about whether or not a specific subcategory of racist listens to a specific label of music.
__________________
- "Ernest Hemingway once wrote that the world is a fine place and worth fighting for. I agree with the second part." - Detective Sommerset
- "Stupidity does not cancel out stupidity to yield genius. It breeds like a bucket-full of coked out hamsters." - The Oatmeal
- "To the best of my knowledge the only thing philosophy has ever proven is that Descartes could think." - SMBC
JoeMorgue is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 2nd January 2019, 08:33 AM   #55
baron
Guest
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 8,627
Originally Posted by varwoche View Post
The definition of "skinhead" that most Americans are familiar with, a definition embraced by the perps themselves (according to the article), relating to an incident that occurred in America ... that definition makes perfect sense in this context. The diversionary, off-topic posturing about the history of skinheads is simply diversionary, off-topic posturing.
To be fair, you were the one who started it.

As regards the diversion, there is nothing to divert from. Without the discussion of music and Bad Manners and skinhead history there is nothing to talk about there, as evidenced by the fact that nobody has even tried. A group of neo-Nazis attacked a black guy whilst using racist epithets. Well...

That's bad.

You're right, that's bad.

Nazis are so racist.

Sure, it's a nasty incident.

Those skinheads, though.


And so forth.
baron is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 2nd January 2019, 08:33 AM   #56
Gilbert Syndrome
Philosopher
 
Gilbert Syndrome's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Liverpool, UK
Posts: 6,095
Originally Posted by varwoche View Post
Thank you for noticing my sophisticated taste!

Here's a blurb about "hardcore skinheads". It says they're into heavy metal. Apparently there are a lot of people who have formed the same impression as I have, misguided though we may be.
AFAIK, "hardcore skinheads" will listen to a lot of things, I don't think there's a handbook of particular music they have to enjoy.
__________________
Generic proclamation of positivity:

Scouse saying - Go 'ed, is right, nice one, boss, well in, sound, belter, made up.

Usage: 'Go 'ed, lad, get us an ale in, nice one.'
Gilbert Syndrome is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 2nd January 2019, 08:35 AM   #57
Gilbert Syndrome
Philosopher
 
Gilbert Syndrome's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Liverpool, UK
Posts: 6,095
Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
And we've successfully been Bobbed into talking about a hijack about whether or not a specific subcategory of racist listens to a specific label of music.
Was there much else to discuss with regards to the story of a DJ being beaten up while black, though? Seems there's plenty of "while black" threads, a discussion on what does or does not constitute as being a favourite tune for a skinhead seems about as worthy a chat as anything else, IMO.
__________________
Generic proclamation of positivity:

Scouse saying - Go 'ed, is right, nice one, boss, well in, sound, belter, made up.

Usage: 'Go 'ed, lad, get us an ale in, nice one.'
Gilbert Syndrome is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 2nd January 2019, 08:35 AM   #58
baron
Guest
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 8,627
Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
I'm not sure there is an important take away from this incident.
Don't play heavy metal to neo-Nazis if you're black?

I don't know, it could help someone.
baron is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 2nd January 2019, 08:35 AM   #59
varwoche
Penultimate Amazing
 
varwoche's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Puget Sound
Posts: 12,686
Originally Posted by baron View Post
To be fair, you were the one who started it.
Pay better attention please.
__________________
To survive election season on a skeptics forum, one must understand Hymie-the-Robot.
varwoche is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 2nd January 2019, 08:36 AM   #60
baron
Guest
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 8,627
Originally Posted by varwoche View Post
Pay better attention please.
To...?
baron is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 2nd January 2019, 08:41 AM   #61
Gilbert Syndrome
Philosopher
 
Gilbert Syndrome's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Liverpool, UK
Posts: 6,095
Originally Posted by baron View Post
I saw Bad Manners live around '88 or '89, the best gig I've ever been to. The next day I was black and blue. They did a couple of tracks with 'Skinhead' in the title but that's about as far as their involvement with the original skinhead movement goes.
Tbf, Bad Manners weren't really much of a skinhead band, they also weren't ever really serious about anything, a bit like Madness.
__________________
Generic proclamation of positivity:

Scouse saying - Go 'ed, is right, nice one, boss, well in, sound, belter, made up.

Usage: 'Go 'ed, lad, get us an ale in, nice one.'
Gilbert Syndrome is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 2nd January 2019, 08:49 AM   #62
Gilbert Syndrome
Philosopher
 
Gilbert Syndrome's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Liverpool, UK
Posts: 6,095
Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Damn. My apologies to you, deadrose, and anyone else for an earlier comment I posted about skins being vermin. I honestly never heard of a skinhead as anything but a particularly violent neo-nazi who liked shaving their head.

There was another similar group called Straight Edge that I recall, I think mostly interested in no drugs or racism, but adopted a hardcore punk look and music tastes. They used to be confused with skins here on the East Coast USA.
Many original skinheads were black. Being that it came from a combination of reggae, blues, bluebeat, ska, dancehall, etc, then came across to the UK and Europe along with the dress code of slick suits and hats, eventually you got 2-Tone, The Selectar/Specials, etc.

Straight Edge was a blurred subgenre that basically came about due to kids not being allowed into certain Punk shows, so X's were drawn on hands to signify that they wouldn't be drinking. It all went a bit mad and elitist from there, but Minor Threat were one of the initial bands who wanted to make shows more accessible to younger kids who were annoyed at being left out of so age-restricted shows.

Racist skinheads just evolved out of the whole muddy mess of Punk/Skinhead subculture and attached themselves to certain bands. The Clash got a major following of NF supporters because they took the tune "White Riot" literally.
__________________
Generic proclamation of positivity:

Scouse saying - Go 'ed, is right, nice one, boss, well in, sound, belter, made up.

Usage: 'Go 'ed, lad, get us an ale in, nice one.'
Gilbert Syndrome is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 2nd January 2019, 08:50 AM   #63
carlitos
"más divertido"
 
carlitos's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 19,676
Originally Posted by baron View Post
To be fair, you were the one who started it.

As regards the diversion, there is nothing to divert from. Without the discussion of music and Bad Manners and skinhead history there is nothing to talk about there, as evidenced by the fact that nobody has even tried. A group of neo-Nazis attacked a black guy whilst using racist epithets. Well...

That's bad.

You're right, that's bad.

Nazis are so racist.

Sure, it's a nasty incident.

Those skinheads, though.


And so forth.
And again, baron is correct.

Last edited by carlitos; 2nd January 2019 at 08:51 AM. Reason: Added quote - fast moving thread!
carlitos is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 2nd January 2019, 08:50 AM   #64
Dave Rogers
Bandaged ice that stampedes inexpensively through a scribbled morning waving necessary ankles
 
Dave Rogers's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Cair Paravel, according to XKCD
Posts: 28,835
Originally Posted by Childlike Empress View Post
But yeah, no skinheads listen to heavy metal, that's kind of a certainty.
You left out the word "true".

Dave
__________________
Me: So what you're saying is that, if the load carrying ability of the lower structure is reduced to the point where it can no longer support the load above it, it will collapse without a jolt, right?

Tony Szamboti: That is right
Dave Rogers is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 2nd January 2019, 08:51 AM   #65
luchog
Neo-Post-Retro-Revivalist
 
luchog's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: The Emerald City
Posts: 15,291
Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Look at this LWB OP: mostly a discussion of musical tastes of unrelated groups that used to call themselves by the same name. Does that discussion have anything to do with the topic of a racist beating of a deejay?

That was rather my point. It's all part of the same obfuscation/avoidance tactic.

What I don't get is why people keep engaging the obvious trolls, and thus adding to the noise. It's blatantly obvious that 1) they're not arguing honestly, they're simply attempting to either sidetrack and drown out debate, or to preach their own worldview rather than debate; and 2) no amount of debate is ever going to convince them.

It's rather irritating when you've tried to ignore the obvious trolls, and other people keep responding to them, thus effectively negating the value of ignoring them in the first place.
__________________
"All opinions are not equal. Some are a very great deal more robust, sophisticated and well supported in logic and argument than others." -- Douglas Adams
"The absence of evidence might indeed not be evidence of absence, but it's a pretty good start." -- PhantomWolf
"Let's see the buggers figure that one out." - John Lennon

Last edited by luchog; 2nd January 2019 at 08:54 AM.
luchog is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 2nd January 2019, 08:58 AM   #66
MRC_Hans
Penultimate Amazing
 
MRC_Hans's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Posts: 21,863
Originally Posted by Childlike Empress View Post
So what, now it's about a current event AND a social issue. Fits the subforum perfectly. In case you're interested in the topic you obviously know nothing about, here's the standard book. I know quite a bit about it because I'm very interested in Jamaican music, especially Ska and early Reggae, and how it came to Europe. And in history of youth cultures in general.
What I know about the music preferences of cultural subgroups is irrelevant (although you can't deduce what I do know from my post). As far as I'm concerned, they can prefer whatever music they like, as long as they don't beat up people for not playing it.

Hans
__________________
Experience is an excellent teacher, but she sends large bills.
MRC_Hans is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 2nd January 2019, 09:06 AM   #67
Thermal
Philosopher
 
Thermal's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Location: NJ USA. We Don't Like You Either
Posts: 7,065
Originally Posted by luchog View Post
That was rather my point. It's all part of the same obfuscation/avoidance tactic.

What I don't get is why people keep engaging the obvious trolls, and thus adding to the noise. It's blatantly obvious that 1) they're not arguing honestly, they're simply attempting to either sidetrack and drown out debate, or to preach their own worldview rather than debate; and 2) no amount of debate is ever going to convince them.

It's rather irritating when you've tried to ignore the obvious trolls, and other people keep responding to them, thus effectively negating the value of ignoring them in the first place.
I don't follow? The posters historically lambasted as (((((deniers))))) have met the topic squarely. These skins are scum. Not suprising, considering the scum they are. Period. The thread drift was by others. So....who are the trolls?
__________________
"Half of what he said meant something else, and the other half didn't mean anything at all" -Rosencrantz, on Hamlet
Thermal is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 2nd January 2019, 09:10 AM   #68
JoeMorgue
Self Employed
Remittance Man
 
JoeMorgue's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Florida
Posts: 17,052
Originally Posted by luchog View Post
It's rather irritating when you've tried to ignore the obvious trolls, and other people keep responding to them, thus effectively negating the value of ignoring them in the first place.
Oh it's almost as if people making random stupid noise isn't as easy to just magically ignore as people make it out to be and "just ignore them" isn't the wonder fix all for it.

I've said it before, I'm saying it now, and I'll say it again. You can ignore people talking about disruptive elements in threads exactly at perfect 1:1 ratio as easily as people can ignore the disruptive elements.

If you can't magically tune out people complaining about trolls it shouldn't be that hard for you to understand why other people can't magically tune out the trolls in the first place.
__________________
- "Ernest Hemingway once wrote that the world is a fine place and worth fighting for. I agree with the second part." - Detective Sommerset
- "Stupidity does not cancel out stupidity to yield genius. It breeds like a bucket-full of coked out hamsters." - The Oatmeal
- "To the best of my knowledge the only thing philosophy has ever proven is that Descartes could think." - SMBC
JoeMorgue is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 2nd January 2019, 10:10 AM   #69
luchog
Neo-Post-Retro-Revivalist
 
luchog's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: The Emerald City
Posts: 15,291
Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
If you can't magically tune out people complaining about trolls it shouldn't be that hard for you to understand why other people can't magically tune out the trolls in the first place.

It's almost as if you're trying to justify trolling.

I have trolls on ignore. I don't see their posts. What I do see is endless digressions of noise from people responding to their posts, all of which is the same thing over and over and over, depressingly predictable, while any actual discussion in the thread is drowned out and buried under dozens of posts of noise. It's hard to find an actual post to respond to when there are page after page of repetitive nonsense, and only one or two actual on-topic posts per page at best.
__________________
"All opinions are not equal. Some are a very great deal more robust, sophisticated and well supported in logic and argument than others." -- Douglas Adams
"The absence of evidence might indeed not be evidence of absence, but it's a pretty good start." -- PhantomWolf
"Let's see the buggers figure that one out." - John Lennon
luchog is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 2nd January 2019, 10:10 AM   #70
p0lka
Graduate Poster
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 1,304
Originally Posted by Hlafordlaes View Post
sounds like the anti nowhere league, I thought that genre was classed as hardcore punk.
p0lka is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 2nd January 2019, 10:17 AM   #71
Gilbert Syndrome
Philosopher
 
Gilbert Syndrome's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Liverpool, UK
Posts: 6,095
Originally Posted by p0lka View Post
sounds like the anti nowhere league, I thought that genre was classed as hardcore punk.
ANL where definitely part of the Hardcore movement, but it was a pretty broad spectrum which blurred between the Punk of the late 70's and the Thrash of the mid-to-late 80's, etc.

Lots of bands ended up growing their hair out and abandoning the Punk elements for more metal sounds/looks, bands like Gang Green, SSD, Cro Mags, etc.
__________________
Generic proclamation of positivity:

Scouse saying - Go 'ed, is right, nice one, boss, well in, sound, belter, made up.

Usage: 'Go 'ed, lad, get us an ale in, nice one.'
Gilbert Syndrome is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 2nd January 2019, 10:21 AM   #72
luchog
Neo-Post-Retro-Revivalist
 
luchog's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: The Emerald City
Posts: 15,291
Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
I don't follow? The posters historically lambasted as (((((deniers))))) have met the topic squarely. These skins are scum. Not suprising, considering the scum they are. Period. The thread drift was by others. So....who are the trolls?

I guess we have different definitions of "met the topic squarely". I don't see complaining about the existence of LWB threads as "meeting the topic squarely", I see it as avoidance of the topic just as much as petty arguments over irrelevant details are avoidance of the topic.
__________________
"All opinions are not equal. Some are a very great deal more robust, sophisticated and well supported in logic and argument than others." -- Douglas Adams
"The absence of evidence might indeed not be evidence of absence, but it's a pretty good start." -- PhantomWolf
"Let's see the buggers figure that one out." - John Lennon
luchog is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 2nd January 2019, 10:29 AM   #73
carlitos
"más divertido"
 
carlitos's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 19,676
The music angle is a much more interesting topic than "nazis attack black guy," plus it's actually intrinsic to the story here. The owner of a record label that releases racist music attacked a DJ for not playing heavy enough music.
carlitos is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 2nd January 2019, 10:38 AM   #74
Childlike Empress
Ewige Blumenkraft
 
Childlike Empress's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Ivory Tower
Posts: 16,631
Originally Posted by MRC_Hans View Post
(although you can't deduce what I do know from my post)

I was easily able to do so by the scare quotes you put around "skinheads". You can as well admit that you had no clue (thanks Thermal), you're with the vast majority of people.
Childlike Empress is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 2nd January 2019, 10:38 AM   #75
JoeMorgue
Self Employed
Remittance Man
 
JoeMorgue's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Florida
Posts: 17,052
Originally Posted by luchog View Post
It's almost as if you're trying to justify trolling.
Hardly. In my ideal world the Trolls wouldn't be here, not given soapboxes we're all patting each other on the back over about how good we are at ignoring them.

Quote:
I have trolls on ignore. I don't see their posts. What I do see is endless digressions of noise from people responding to their posts, all of which is the same thing over and over and over, depressingly predictable, while any actual discussion in the thread is drowned out and buried under dozens of posts of noise. It's hard to find an actual post to respond to when there are page after page of repetitive nonsense, and only one or two actual on-topic posts per page at best.
Then if you don't like people responding to trolls you can ignore them too.

Again either that's the answer or it isn't. Right now you want people to ignore posters they find disruptive because you are incapable of ignoring posters you find disruptive.
__________________
- "Ernest Hemingway once wrote that the world is a fine place and worth fighting for. I agree with the second part." - Detective Sommerset
- "Stupidity does not cancel out stupidity to yield genius. It breeds like a bucket-full of coked out hamsters." - The Oatmeal
- "To the best of my knowledge the only thing philosophy has ever proven is that Descartes could think." - SMBC
JoeMorgue is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 2nd January 2019, 10:46 AM   #76
Thermal
Philosopher
 
Thermal's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Location: NJ USA. We Don't Like You Either
Posts: 7,065
Originally Posted by luchog View Post
I guess we have different definitions of "met the topic squarely". I don't see complaining about the existence of LWB threads as "meeting the topic squarely", I see it as avoidance of the topic just as much as petty arguments over irrelevant details are avoidance of the topic.
I mean in this thread specifically. Everyone I see condemns the racist violence with one voice. So...what do we have to talk about? Hey, how about the kind of music skins like?

These LWB are really starting to look like bait to coax posters into questioning the narrative then dogpiling and beating them with the Woke Stick. That's the meta objection floating around, I think.
__________________
"Half of what he said meant something else, and the other half didn't mean anything at all" -Rosencrantz, on Hamlet
Thermal is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 2nd January 2019, 11:05 AM   #77
luchog
Neo-Post-Retro-Revivalist
 
luchog's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: The Emerald City
Posts: 15,291
Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
H
Again either that's the answer or it isn't. Right now you want people to ignore posters they find disruptive because you are incapable of ignoring posters you find disruptive.



Have fun tilting at your straw men.

Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
These LWB are really starting to look like bait to coax posters into questioning the narrative then dogpiling and beating them with the Woke Stick. That's the meta objection floating around, I think.

No, that's far from the actual objection, just a straw man of your own making. Those are piling up badly here. If you're actually interested in what I and others are saying, you can go here: http://www.internationalskeptics.com...8#post12549478

As has been repeatedly pointed out, the point of these threads, which certain people have insisted on evading as much as possible, is to demonstrate the breadth and depth of a problem that the white establishment has consistently denied exists in our "post-racial" America. The pat denialism that so many engage in is an effective demonstration just how effectively the racists and denialists have been at controlling the discourse and pushing their "post-racial" and plausible denial narratives. The "well it happens to white people to" is their most common tactic, completely ignoring the fact that black people and other minorities are disproportionately affected at vastly higher rates by these types of incidents. But the ostriches would rather buy into the denialist narrative and avoid confronting the sheer scope of the problem, because it's much more comfortable to do that than risk social unrest.
__________________
"All opinions are not equal. Some are a very great deal more robust, sophisticated and well supported in logic and argument than others." -- Douglas Adams
"The absence of evidence might indeed not be evidence of absence, but it's a pretty good start." -- PhantomWolf
"Let's see the buggers figure that one out." - John Lennon

Last edited by luchog; 2nd January 2019 at 11:16 AM.
luchog is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 2nd January 2019, 11:07 AM   #78
JoeMorgue
Self Employed
Remittance Man
 
JoeMorgue's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Florida
Posts: 17,052
Originally Posted by luchog View Post


Have fun tilting at your straw men.
Why not just ignore me?
__________________
- "Ernest Hemingway once wrote that the world is a fine place and worth fighting for. I agree with the second part." - Detective Sommerset
- "Stupidity does not cancel out stupidity to yield genius. It breeds like a bucket-full of coked out hamsters." - The Oatmeal
- "To the best of my knowledge the only thing philosophy has ever proven is that Descartes could think." - SMBC
JoeMorgue is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 2nd January 2019, 11:21 AM   #79
carlitos
"más divertido"
 
carlitos's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 19,676
Originally Posted by luchog View Post

No, that's far from the actual objection, just a straw man of your own making. Those are piling up badly here. If you're actually interested in what I and others are saying, you can go here: http://www.internationalskeptics.com...8#post12549478
I clicked the link, and your characterization of people who criticize these threads broke my irony meter.

Originally Posted by luchog
they so desperately want to ignore it, to pretend it doesn't exist, to play like everything is sunshine and flowers and rainbow-puking unicorns.

Last edited by carlitos; 2nd January 2019 at 11:22 AM. Reason: clarity
carlitos is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 2nd January 2019, 12:07 PM   #80
Thermal
Philosopher
 
Thermal's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Location: NJ USA. We Don't Like You Either
Posts: 7,065
Originally Posted by luchog View Post


Have fun tilting at your straw men.




No, that's far from the actual objection, just a straw man of your own making. Those are piling up badly here. If you're actually interested in what I and others are saying, you can go here: http://www.internationalskeptics.com...8#post12549478

As has been repeatedly pointed out, the point of these threads, which certain people have insisted on evading as much as possible, is to demonstrate the breadth and depth of a problem that the white establishment has consistently denied exists in our "post-racial" America. The pat denialism that so many engage in is an effective demonstration just how effectively the racists and denialists have been at controlling the discourse and pushing their "post-racial" and plausible denial narratives. The "well it happens to white people to" is their most common tactic, completely ignoring the fact that black people and other minorities are disproportionately affected at vastly higher rates by these types of incidents. But the ostriches would rather buy into the denialist narrative and avoid confronting the sheer scope of the problem, because it's much more comfortable to do that than risk social unrest.
But you make my point for me: a couple dozen examples over a year in a country of hundreds of millions is not exactly showing higher rates of mistreatment. Hell, a hundred a day would be statistically insignificant. I could probably find similar incidences of people being struck by lightning. Is that a topic of daily national interest, too?

Even if the kid from Mowing the Lawn While Black was shown to have police called on him by neighborhood busybodies regularly, it might show this higher incidence of harassment (which I completely agree happens). To use your example of justification, I had police called on me twice last year for being on someone's property. So my takeaway from that story was 'wait, you call that Living While Black? Its a normal thing'. That's one of the reasons the meme is shooting itself in the foot.
__________________
"Half of what he said meant something else, and the other half didn't mean anything at all" -Rosencrantz, on Hamlet
Thermal is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Reply

International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Social Issues & Current Events

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 08:14 PM.
Powered by vBulletin. Copyright ©2000 - 2019, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.

This forum began as part of the James Randi Education Foundation (JREF). However, the forum now exists as
an independent entity with no affiliation with or endorsement by the JREF, including the section in reference to "JREF" topics.

Disclaimer: Messages posted in the Forum are solely the opinion of their authors.