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Old 2nd January 2019, 09:05 AM   #41
JoeMorgue
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1. What the hell is a "Real Transgender?" How the hell can you differentiate a personal identity? If she says she's a transgender, she's is one. Out of all the places you can't play the No True Scotsman card something that is totally self-defining is the first one.

2. Yeah yeah "Hardy har lookit that manly looking woman" jokes really make me believe people have actual serious and well thought out issues with this.
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Old 2nd January 2019, 09:08 AM   #42
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
1. What the hell is a "Real Transgender?" How the hell can you differentiate a personal identity? If she says she's a transgender, she's is one. Out of all the places you can't play the No True Scotsman card something that is totally self-defining is the first one.

2. Yeah yeah "Hardy har lookit that manly looking woman" jokes really make me believe people have actual serious and well thought out issues with this.
He is a manly looking woman, are you denying this?
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Old 2nd January 2019, 09:18 AM   #43
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Originally Posted by Pterodactyl View Post
Haven't seen a thread for this one yet, so might as well.




https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/us-new...clerk-13795054

Video below:

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I AGREE
What we urgently need is a gender-neutral pronoun.

That said .... someone might need to cool down a bit.

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Old 2nd January 2019, 09:21 AM   #44
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Originally Posted by bluesjnr View Post
He is a manly looking woman, are you denying this?
I'm denying I care enough about to mock someone over it.
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Old 2nd January 2019, 09:24 AM   #45
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Originally Posted by RolandRat View Post
This topic has actually had a bit of impact on my work. A person called in, this person sounded male, so my colleague addressed him as sir. This person took offence at that and is now in the process of litigation. As a result, the staff have to undergo "gender training", problem is management cant agree on a gender neutral pronoun.

How are you supposed to guess what someone wants to identify as from a phone call? Or if you see someone and they look like a man, sound like a man, are you really in the wrong if you address them as a man?
Totally agree. My problem with this incident in the OP is that these days, people dress in all manners, and act in all manners, guessing how a person identifies on a whim isn't always easy.

In hindsight, I'm sure the clerk may have addressed him as a "she," I don't know. The clerk clearly didn't think anything of it.

Funnily enough, where I'm from, I call everyone either "mate" or "love," sometimes I've gotten them mixed up, lol, but it's not an insult, it's just a mistake. I've said "thanks, mate," to a few women, accidentally, but luckily they understood my mistake.

Plenty of men wear make-up and dress effeminately, but they still identify as men. So there's an obviously blurred line here.
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Old 2nd January 2019, 09:32 AM   #46
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Originally Posted by MRC_Hans View Post
What we urgently need is a gender-neutral pronoun.

.....,

Hans
I kind of like "mate". Everybody is somebody's mate, or wishes they were and aren't going to admit they aren't.
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Old 2nd January 2019, 09:40 AM   #47
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Originally Posted by casebro View Post
I kind of like "mate". Everybody is somebody's mate, or wishes they were and aren't going to admit they aren't.
I always use it, but round here, some women feel it is more of a male-oriented label, and as such don't particularly wish to be called it. Outside of the North, I've found some women don't even particularly like to be called "love," either, which isn't intended to be rude.
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Old 2nd January 2019, 09:47 AM   #48
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Originally Posted by bluesjnr View Post
He is a manly looking woman, are you denying this?
Steady on, I go for manly looking women. He's a manly looking man, like Marv out of Sin City.





(and for the snowflakes, I reserve the right to make fun of anybody who puts themselves out there like he did, not for being transgender but for being a cock).
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Old 2nd January 2019, 09:50 AM   #49
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Originally Posted by baron View Post
(and for the snowflakes, I reserve the right to make fun of anybody who puts themselves out there like he did, not for being transgender but for being a cock) vagina.
Correct rude bit assigned.
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Usage: 'Go 'ed, lad, get us an ale in, nice one.'
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Old 2nd January 2019, 09:53 AM   #50
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Originally Posted by Gilbert Syndrome View Post
Correct rude bit assigned.
I thank you, sir.
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Old 2nd January 2019, 09:57 AM   #51
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Originally Posted by baron View Post
I thank you, sir.
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Generic proclamation of positivity:

Scouse saying - Go 'ed, is right, nice one, boss, well in, sound, belter, made up.

Usage: 'Go 'ed, lad, get us an ale in, nice one.'
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Old 2nd January 2019, 10:00 AM   #52
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Originally Posted by casebro View Post
I kind of like "mate". Everybody is somebody's mate, or wishes they were and aren't going to admit they aren't.


Don't try that in Canada!
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Old 2nd January 2019, 10:02 AM   #53
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Originally Posted by Horatius View Post
I love it when an annoyed American takes offense to me calling them "mate", it really does play out a lot like that clip.

I'm not your mate, pal.

Almost always ends with me replying with I'm not your pal, mate.
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Old 2nd January 2019, 10:13 AM   #54
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My (née) nephew has been staying at my house for several months. Se has been in transition for some time. Always been a handsome lad, very tall, with a magnificent full beard. Still has the beard but is growing the hair much longer and taking hormones so the body is changing as well.

I still have trouble with the pronouns and remind ser once in a while that it will take me (and the rest of the family) some time to make that transition as well. Se usually understands when someone makes a genuine mistake and when they are being malicious. Until the transition is much more advanced it is difficult for me to use gender-specific pronouns (as she requests).

btw, I came up with my own pronouns (above) because I haven't liked any of the ones I've heard so far. But I don't like "cis"gendered, either.
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Old 2nd January 2019, 10:27 AM   #55
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Originally Posted by alfaniner View Post
My (née) nephew has been staying at my house for several months. Se has been in transition for some time. Always been a handsome lad, very tall, with a magnificent full beard. Still has the beard but is growing the hair much longer and taking hormones so the body is changing as well.

I still have trouble with the pronouns and remind ser once in a while that it will take me (and the rest of the family) some time to make that transition as well.
I don't imagine the full beard helps.
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Old 2nd January 2019, 10:31 AM   #56
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Originally Posted by alfaniner View Post
My (née) nephew has been staying at my house for several months. Se has been in transition for some time. Always been a handsome lad, very tall, with a magnificent full beard. Still has the beard but is growing the hair much longer and taking hormones so the body is changing as well.

I still have trouble with the pronouns and remind ser once in a while that it will take me (and the rest of the family) some time to make that transition as well. Se usually understands when someone makes a genuine mistake and when they are being malicious. Until the transition is much more advanced it is difficult for me to use gender-specific pronouns (as she requests).

btw, I came up with my own pronouns (above) because I haven't liked any of the ones I've heard so far. But I don't like "cis"gendered, either.
Excuse me, but ... I will call anybody the gender they prefer, within reason, but requesting to be addressed as a female while wearing a full beard is ridiculous.

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Old 2nd January 2019, 10:37 AM   #57
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Originally Posted by alfaniner View Post
btw, I came up with my own pronouns (above) because I haven't liked any of the ones I've heard so far. But I don't like "cis"gendered, either.
How about "niece?"

Another poster here / at the JREF used to use "Zee" and "Zir" for he/she and his/her.

Last edited by carlitos; 2nd January 2019 at 10:38 AM.
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Old 2nd January 2019, 10:41 AM   #58
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I absolutely think we should, as a society, develop and encourage the use of non-gendered language.

I also think it will make absolutely no difference to the overall issue because some; not all, not most, probably not even many, but enough so it isn't statistically meaningless, of transgender people would just go on to demand another distinction so they are still "special."
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Old 2nd January 2019, 10:44 AM   #59
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Originally Posted by Mike! View Post
You are surely not implying s/he is just a creep who likes to go in womens bathrooms?
No, I'm implying that this is exactly what a conservative idiot thinks that a transgender person acts like. To me, this comes across as a Poe or an act designed to finally have an example of what conservatives have been claiming for a long time now because in reality, transgender people are the victims rather than the victimizers.

So suddenly we get this video of an obvious man, charging around a store saying foolish things, kicking a display down and so on and claiming to be a woman.

It raises an alarm to me that it's a set-up from some people who wish that transgendered people were demonized or just non-existent and it isn't an actual, real, transgendered person who was having a bad week.
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Old 2nd January 2019, 10:45 AM   #60
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
I absolutely think we should, as a society, develop and encourage the use of non-gendered language.

I also think it will make absolutely no difference to the overall issue because some; not all, not most, probably not even many, but enough so it isn't statistically meaningless, of transgender people would just go on to demand another distinction so they are still "special."
Yeah, so what if some do? Why is it any skin off your nose?
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Old 2nd January 2019, 10:50 AM   #61
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Originally Posted by baron View Post
He's a manly looking man, like Marv out of Sin City.
damn that's funny
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Old 2nd January 2019, 01:29 PM   #62
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Originally Posted by The Norseman View Post
No, I'm implying that this is exactly what a conservative idiot thinks that a transgender person acts like. To me, this comes across as a Poe or an act designed to finally have an example of what conservatives have been claiming for a long time now because in reality, transgender people are the victims rather than the victimizers.

So suddenly we get this video of an obvious man, charging around a store saying foolish things, kicking a display down and so on and claiming to be a woman.

It raises an alarm to me that it's a set-up from some people who wish that transgendered people were demonized or just non-existent and it isn't an actual, real, transgendered person who was having a bad week.
Do you get to decide who is really trans or are you part of a group that does?

Not all trans people can pass well, you seem to be using this and acting like an idiot as evidence against what this person claims is their self identity.

Trans people are human, this is why threads like this are stupid, pick any group and you can find news articles to write a narrative.
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Old 2nd January 2019, 01:58 PM   #63
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
1. What the hell is a "Real Transgender?" How the hell can you differentiate a personal identity? If she says she's a transgender, she's is one. Out of all the places you can't play the No True Scotsman card something that is totally self-defining is the first one.

2. Yeah yeah "Hardy har lookit that manly looking woman" jokes really make me believe people have actual serious and well thought out issues with this.
Sorry you have to sound like a 'SJW cuck' again. More seriously, you make many good points in this thread.

___________________________

On the thread itself, her behavior shows she was acting like a dick. Yes, it could have been a really bad day/last straw/etc, but of course that doesn't mean her actions were not dickish.

Continually and seeming purposefully misgendering her is also acting like a dick. That is true in the store, and in the thread.
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Old 2nd January 2019, 02:00 PM   #64
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Originally Posted by tyr_13 View Post
Sorry you have to sound like a 'SJW cuck' again. More seriously, you make many good points in this thread.
I'm swinging back and forth between SJW and SJW Hater that sooner or later I'm gonna forget which thread I'm in and start arguing with myself.
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Old 2nd January 2019, 02:09 PM   #65
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
I absolutely think we should, as a society, develop and encourage the use of non-gendered language.

I also think it will make absolutely no difference to the overall issue because some; not all, not most, probably not even many, but enough so it isn't statistically meaningless, of transgender people would just go on to demand another distinction so they are still "special."

Ah, there is a sensitive topic of discussion insider the transgender community on this one, and it basically goes as you say. That is to say, there is a very small minority of transgender people who are motivated, in part or in whole, by being performative. Part of that can be a love of conflict and victimhood.

It's difficult to discuss because so many groups use that as a reason to dismiss all or most transgender people (TERFs love that argument). That dismissal is of course, blatant nonsense because the existence of a characteristic that exists in all human populations and communities in any specific community cannot be used to invalidate that community. There are murderers in every population. And rapists. And drama queens. And people who like pineapple.

I'll give an example from outside the gender realm. Furies are a marginalized group, and get a lot of hatred directed at them. The primary motivation of the vast majority of Furydom is not a desire to experience such hatred or marginalization. The overwhelming motivation is 'this is fun' and they kept at it in spite of the hatred, not because of it. The hatred of Furies has decreased over time. Most in that community like that. But for some, the drama and conflict, and maybe victimhood, was either a draw or became conflated with the identity. The decrease thus feels wrong, and this subgroup of performative Furies have gone to greater lengths to oppose decreases in hatred for them, or done things to keep being marginalized.

The increase of Nazi Furies in the last few years is largely not because a lot of Furies were already Nazis or became them (although both obviously happened); it is in large part because they want the negative attention.

Is that unique to Furies? Nope. Just like it isn't unique to the trans community, nor the GOP, or any other group. (I do think it is more prevelent in some groups though, specifically Raiders fans.)
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Old 2nd January 2019, 02:47 PM   #66
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Wow. Just learnt that “Nazi Furries” is a thing.

Best thread ever.
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Old 2nd January 2019, 02:51 PM   #67
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Originally Posted by tyr_13 View Post
Furies are a marginalized group, and get a lot of hatred directed at them.
That's unnecessary. If you steer clear of murdering your mother or father you shouldn't have any problem with them.
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Old 2nd January 2019, 02:56 PM   #68
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Originally Posted by Pterodactyl View Post
Wow. Just learnt that “Nazi Furries” is a thing.

Best thread ever.
Yeah, but nobody "likes" pineapple.
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Old 2nd January 2019, 03:19 PM   #69
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Originally Posted by baron View Post
That's unnecessary. If you steer clear of murdering your mother or father you shouldn't have any problem with them.
Eh, Athena is the one you really have to convince, and just war deities have each other's backs so I'm good.


(Adding 'Furries' to auto-correct now...)
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Old 2nd January 2019, 03:58 PM   #70
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Originally Posted by Gilbert Syndrome View Post
Totally agree. My problem with this incident in the OP is that these days, people dress in all manners, and act in all manners, guessing how a person identifies on a whim isn't always easy.

In hindsight, I'm sure the clerk may have addressed him as a "she," I don't know. The clerk clearly didn't think anything of it.

Funnily enough, where I'm from, I call everyone either "mate" or "love," sometimes I've gotten them mixed up, lol, but it's not an insult, it's just a mistake. I've said "thanks, mate," to a few women, accidentally, but luckily they understood my mistake.

Plenty of men wear make-up and dress effeminately, but they still identify as men. So there's an obviously blurred line here.
But what's more likely in this case:

1)She was enraged the first time the cashier called her "sir", and the camera just coincidentally started right after the first time;

2) the cashier (and possibly the other customer) had repeatedly called her "sir", despite her increasingly angry objections, and the video starts after she's become outraged?

In my (admittedly limited) experience, trans people will, if you make a mistake, either go about their business, or if it's going to be a long interaction will correct gently, and as long as you accept it, they're fine.
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Old 2nd January 2019, 03:59 PM   #71
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Originally Posted by tyr_13 View Post
Ah, there is a sensitive topic of discussion insider the transgender community on this one, and it basically goes as you say. That is to say, there is a very small minority of transgender people who are motivated, in part or in whole, by being performative. Part of that can be a love of conflict and victimhood.

It's difficult to discuss because so many groups use that as a reason to dismiss all or most transgender people (TERFs love that argument). That dismissal is of course, blatant nonsense because the existence of a characteristic that exists in all human populations and communities in any specific community cannot be used to invalidate that community. There are murderers in every population. And rapists. And drama queens. And people who like pineapple.

I'll give an example from outside the gender realm. Furies are a marginalized group, and get a lot of hatred directed at them. The primary motivation of the vast majority of Furydom is not a desire to experience such hatred or marginalization. The overwhelming motivation is 'this is fun' and they kept at it in spite of the hatred, not because of it. The hatred of Furies has decreased over time. Most in that community like that. But for some, the drama and conflict, and maybe victimhood, was either a draw or became conflated with the identity. The decrease thus feels wrong, and this subgroup of performative Furies have gone to greater lengths to oppose decreases in hatred for them, or done things to keep being marginalized.

The increase of Nazi Furies in the last few years is largely not because a lot of Furies were already Nazis or became them (although both obviously happened); it is in large part because they want the negative attention.

Is that unique to Furies? Nope. Just like it isn't unique to the trans community, nor the GOP, or any other group. (I do think it is more prevelent in some groups though, specifically Raiders fans.)
Forgive my ignorance, but what are Furies?
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Old 2nd January 2019, 04:08 PM   #72
RecoveringYuppy
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Misspelling of Furry I think. Might be better off remaining ignorant.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Furry_fandom
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Old 2nd January 2019, 05:48 PM   #73
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Originally Posted by sadhatter View Post
Do you get to decide who is really trans or are you part of a group that does?
Seriously?



Quote:
Not all trans people can pass well, you seem to be using this and acting like an idiot as evidence against what this person claims is their self identity.
Yup. In this case, yes. People who have a long history of being abused and victimized don't really behave in these ways; yet it perfectly acts out what conservative idiots think what happens every day with transpeople.

I'm suspicious of this being real and that's all. Of course I could be wrong that should go without saying.
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Old 2nd January 2019, 10:00 PM   #74
cullennz
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Originally Posted by The Norseman View Post
Seriously?




Yup. In this case, yes. People who have a long history of being abused and victimized don't really behave in these ways; yet it perfectly acts out what conservative idiots think what happens every day with transpeople.

I'm suspicious of this being real and that's all. Of course I could be wrong that should go without saying.
Just idiot people who are "conservatives" ?
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I generally oppose gun control, but I support the ban on assault weapons and I support a slightly longer waiting period to purchase a gun. With today’s Internet technology we should be able to tell within 72-hours if a potential gun owner has a record.

Source: The America We Deserve, by Donald Trump, p.102 , Jul 2, 2000
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Old 3rd January 2019, 03:08 AM   #75
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Originally Posted by MRC_Hans View Post
Excuse me, but ... I will call anybody the gender they prefer, within reason, but requesting to be addressed as a female while wearing a full beard is ridiculous.

Hans


You're sure about that?
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Old 3rd January 2019, 03:17 AM   #76
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Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
You're sure about that?
I so thought that link was going here.
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Old 3rd January 2019, 03:18 AM   #77
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Can anyone tell me how, without asking, I tell the difference between a pre transition transsexual who would like to be called 'Miss' and a transvestite who just thinks he looks good in a frock and would like to be called 'Sir'?
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Old 3rd January 2019, 03:20 AM   #78
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Originally Posted by Ian Osborne View Post
I so thought that link was going here.
Don't knock Wurst.
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Old 3rd January 2019, 03:30 AM   #79
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Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
Can anyone tell me how, without asking, I tell the difference between a pre transition transsexual who would like to be called 'Miss' and a transvestite who just thinks he looks good in a frock and would like to be called 'Sir'?
Only afterwards...
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Old 3rd January 2019, 05:25 AM   #80
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Originally Posted by Ian Osborne View Post
I so thought that link was going here.
To be completely fair Conchita is a character and Thomas Neuwirth is happily identifying as a male.

If you made a mistake what is the Wurst that could happen?
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