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Old 3rd January 2019, 02:10 PM   #121
mgidm86
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
A discussion of default pronouns in a thread about an incident involving default pronouns is literally the opposite of a derail.
Perhaps he meant that he is the derail.

About the thread - not enough people care about transgenders and their pronoun issues. It's just the truth. I don't. I'm never rude to people deliberately. If someone gets mad like this guy did, too gawdamn bad.

People need to get over themselves, it's becoming an epidemic.

Quote:
I think we'll find out that this is fake, or a set up.
Several posters have made this claim. Is it just that hard to believe that a transgendered can behave badly?
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Old 3rd January 2019, 03:49 PM   #122
Gilbert Syndrome
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Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
'Mate' is okay, for interactions that aren't acrimonious.

'Love', or, more likely, 'Luv' can be a bit dangerous, some will view it as condescending. As a general rule, the further south you are, the more likely 'Luv' will cause offense.
Yeah, I was speaking about this yesterday. For me, I'm so used to doing it, but I tend to forget that some women may find it offensive, though I don't mean it to be.

It's even worse when I call a woman "mate." I mean, it's not really an insult, cos they could technically be a mate, but for some reason, in the North, it's more of a thing to say to a bloke, unless you're close friends with the girl you're calling "mate."
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Old 3rd January 2019, 03:54 PM   #123
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
"Do you prefer ma'am or sir?"

"I prefer to complete this transaction and be on my way. Call me whatever makes that happen soonest."

"Here's your change. Enjoy your game. Have a nice day."

"Thanks, you too."

ETA: Apparently it's a typically Californian trait, to make business transactions as terse and functional as possible. I don't know about that, but I do know that when I'm at the register, I'm laser-focused on completing the few steps necessary to be done, with ideally zero nonessential activity. Idle chitchat? Making conversation? Boop to that. Finding out my preferred pronoun seems like a complete waste of time. I don't care. You don't care. Just take my money and give me my receipt. Say whatever you want, as long as I don't have to pay attention to it and it doesn't slow you down.

Anyone who comes to the register looking to have their preferred pronouns respected is doing it wrong, in my opinion. Preferred pronouns are completely irrelevant to the intended outcome. Unless the intended outcome isn't actually exchanging money for goods and services. In which case, you shouldn't be at the register in the first place. See "doing it wrong" above.
I tend to agree with this.

Although one thing I would say is that in some places they ask their employees to have a bit of chit chat and for them to ask a person what they'd wish to be called. My bank does it all the time, and I say the same thing every time, "call me what you like, I've been called worse."
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Old 3rd January 2019, 04:02 PM   #124
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Originally Posted by alfaniner View Post
On my last trip to Florida, I got called "Boss" a few times (not disrespectfully). I understand this may be second nature for former prisoners, but these varied people didn't appear to be fresh out of the clink.
I sometimes get called "boss" in work. I don't know how I feel about it.
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Old 3rd January 2019, 04:57 PM   #125
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Originally Posted by MRC_Hans View Post
Excuse me, but ... I will call anybody the gender they prefer, within reason, but requesting to be addressed as a female while wearing a full beard is ridiculous.



Hans
Customer Walks into McDonalds. "Excuse me I would like a big mac.

Without the meat patties
And without the lettuce,
Oh and no cheese or pickles
Oh and add twelve chicken nuggets and a fillet o fish patty to it."

Cashier "So you want a fillet o fish burger with chicken nuggets and special sauce?"

Customer " How dare you sir!, I told you i was ordering a Big Mac. Are you mocking me? "

Cashier "ok then."

Customer "Why are you charging me for A gillet o fish and Chicken nuggets? that is not what I ordered. I clearly ordered a big mac you bigot. I told you I wanted a big mac, and I told you what I wanted on itGet me your manager. I hope someone has recorded this interaction so it can be uploaded to woketube.com.

Cashier "But sir those items have different pri.."
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Old 3rd January 2019, 06:49 PM   #126
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Originally Posted by Gilbert Syndrome View Post
Tbf, I certainly wouldn't be asking every potential trans person I saw whether they wanted to be called sir or miss. I'd rather just avoid calling them either of the two, I'd rather call the person by his or her name.
Then don't ask.

See how simple that is? You see or have to interact with a person who's blurred the lines amongst genders. You going to assume one or the other? Why not assume neither and just avoid using direct forms of address.

"Hi there, may I help you?"
"Will that be cash or charge, then?"
"You want fries with that?"
"Good morning, what can I do for you?"

I could go through several dozen such lines. No where do you need to throw in the superfluous and gratuitous Sir or Ma'am.
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Old 4th January 2019, 02:47 AM   #127
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Originally Posted by Foolmewunz View Post
Then don't ask.

See how simple that is? You see or have to interact with a person who's blurred the lines amongst genders. You going to assume one or the other? Why not assume neither and just avoid using direct forms of address.

"Hi there, may I help you?"
"Will that be cash or charge, then?"
"You want fries with that?"
"Good morning, what can I do for you?"

I could go through several dozen such lines. No where do you need to throw in the superfluous and gratuitous Sir or Ma'am.


That's fine until you need to attract their attention, then it's almost impossible not to refer to them by some moniker, even if it's jut "Hey, you!"
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Old 4th January 2019, 03:15 AM   #128
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Pronouns are superfluous 95% of the time any way.

Mate is the go to in NZ for me whatever sex, if it is really needed.

Doing hospitality jobs over seas years ago was slightly more confusing, but you get round it
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Old 4th January 2019, 03:29 AM   #129
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Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
That's fine until you need to attract their attention, then it's almost impossible not to refer to them by some moniker, even if it's jut "Hey, you!"
How about 'Excuse me'?
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Old 4th January 2019, 04:36 AM   #130
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Originally Posted by Ian Osborne View Post
How about 'Excuse me'?
Yes, that might work.

It's not quite as easy as that though.

As the person whom you've been serving - using no gendered language so as not to offend - leaves, they leave their wallet on the counter. You have maybe three seconds, if that, before they're back in the crowd of shoppers. At that point, I think there's really little time to apply thought and reflection on gender identity in the modern age and go looking for alternatives to 'excuse me miss/sir/madam'.
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Old 4th January 2019, 04:41 AM   #131
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Old 4th January 2019, 09:45 AM   #132
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Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
Yes, that might work.

It's not quite as easy as that though.

As the person whom you've been serving - using no gendered language so as not to offend - leaves, they leave their wallet on the counter. You have maybe three seconds, if that, before they're back in the crowd of shoppers. At that point, I think there's really little time to apply thought and reflection on gender identity in the modern age and go looking for alternatives to 'excuse me miss/sir/madam'.
“Hey, wait, you forgot your wallet!” springs to mind without any particular forethought. If you’re not drilled to include sir or madam it’s easy to forget it even when you’d intended to use it.

As an 80s kid I’m now reminded of the running gag from “you can’t do that on television” where the mom, practicing Avon Calling, always addressed her practice customers as “sir or madam, as the case may be”
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Old 4th January 2019, 11:18 AM   #133
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Call me an *******, but if I were working as a clerk at this store, someone forgot their wallet and I called out, "Excuse me, sir, you forgot your wallet!" and was told, "That's not my preferred gender pronoun, you *******!", I'd simply look them in the eye, take the wallet and drop it in the garbage and reply, "Oh...my mistake."

This raving lunatic just wanted to lunatic. There is no excuse for his/her reaction in the video...even repeated misuse of the pronoun would not excuse the kicking of merchandise over.
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Old 4th January 2019, 11:44 AM   #134
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Originally Posted by Crawtator View Post
Call me an *******, but if I were working as a clerk at this store, someone forgot their wallet and I called out, "Excuse me, sir, you forgot your wallet!" and was told, "That's not my preferred gender pronoun, you *******!", I'd simply look them in the eye, take the wallet and drop it in the garbage and reply, "Oh...my mistake."
I'd open up the wallet, check the ID and say, "It says here 'Richard Johnson', sex:Male'. Do you still want your wallet, sir?"
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Old 4th January 2019, 11:58 AM   #135
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Originally Posted by alfaniner View Post
I'd open up the wallet, check the ID and say, "It says here 'Richard Johnson', sex:Male'. Do you still want your wallet, sir?"
That would work too!
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Old 4th January 2019, 01:02 PM   #136
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Excuse me, individual, would you mind stepping out of the store before I call the police?
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Old 4th January 2019, 01:06 PM   #137
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You could always use a gender neutral noun such as 'lover', 'monkey' or 'sausage'.
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Old 4th January 2019, 01:28 PM   #138
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Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
You're sure about that?
Yes. I am sure. A few very rare individuals can have a beard while female, but that does not mean that people cannot normally assume that a bearded person is male. If you are one such female and don't want to risk being mistaken for a male, .... shave, or don't blame people for being mistaken.

But this is beside the subject. The person in question is not a biological female, and does shave.

Hans
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Old 4th January 2019, 01:31 PM   #139
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Originally Posted by bluesjnr View Post
To be completely fair Conchita is a character and Thomas Neuwirth is happily identifying as a male.

If you made a mistake what is the Wurst that could happen?
Wurst, of course, means sausage. So it is Conchita with the sausage.

Great show, really.

Hans
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Old 4th January 2019, 01:36 PM   #140
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Originally Posted by Hungry81 View Post
Customer Walks into McDonalds. "Excuse me I would like a big mac.

Without the meat patties
And without the lettuce,
Oh and no cheese or pickles
Oh and add twelve chicken nuggets and a fillet o fish patty to it."

Cashier "So you want a fillet o fish burger with chicken nuggets and special sauce?"

Customer " How dare you sir!, I told you i was ordering a Big Mac. Are you mocking me? "

Cashier "ok then."

Customer "Why are you charging me for A gillet o fish and Chicken nuggets? that is not what I ordered. I clearly ordered a big mac you bigot. I told you I wanted a big mac, and I told you what I wanted on itGet me your manager. I hope someone has recorded this interaction so it can be uploaded to woketube.com.

Cashier "But sir those items have different pri.."
Well, I think this is hypothetical. I don't think The Golden Seagull restaurants make specials on that level. Not that I would know. I would only visit one if the alternative was starvation.

Hans
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Old 4th January 2019, 01:38 PM   #141
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Originally Posted by Gilbert Syndrome View Post
I tend to agree with this.

Although one thing I would say is that in some places they ask their employees to have a bit of chit chat and for them to ask a person what they'd wish to be called. My bank does it all the time, and I say the same thing every time, "call me what you like, I've been called worse."
AH, yes. Here we say "call me what you like as long as you don't call me early in the morning."

Hans
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Old 4th January 2019, 01:44 PM   #142
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Originally Posted by mgidm86 View Post
Several posters have made this claim. Is it just that hard to believe that a transgendered can behave badly?
Not really, but ... this ... person is going to have a very difficult life with that attitude.

Ideal conversation:

Attendant: "Here you are sir."

Transsexual customer: "Well, I identify as a female so please say madam, or mam."

Attendant: "Ah, yes, madam. Sorry."

Customer: "No problem. Happens all the time."

Attendant: "Yes, must be a drag."


Hans
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Old 5th January 2019, 07:17 AM   #143
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Originally Posted by MRC_Hans View Post
Yes. I am sure. A few very rare individuals can have a beard while female, but that does not mean that people cannot normally assume that a bearded person is male.
That's not what you said. You said:

Originally Posted by MRC_Hans View Post
requesting to be addressed as a female while wearing a full beard is ridiculous.
Which is a blanket statement that just isn't true, as evidenced by the link I supplied. There's nothing ridiculous about a lady who is able to grow a beard wanting to be addressed as a female - because she's female.


Quote:
But this is beside the subject. The person in question is not a biological female, and does shave.

Hans
But I'm afraid your statement was still false.
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Old 5th January 2019, 07:18 AM   #144
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Originally Posted by MRC_Hans View Post
Not really, but ... this ... person is going to have a very difficult life with that attitude.

Ideal conversation:

Attendant: "Here you are sir."

Transsexual customer: "Well, I identify as a female so please say madam, or mam."

Attendant: "Ah, yes, madam. Sorry."

Customer: "No problem. Happens all the time."

Attendant: "Yes, must be a drag."


Hans
I chuckled.
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Old 5th January 2019, 07:50 AM   #145
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Originally Posted by Foolmewunz View Post
Then don't ask.

See how simple that is? You see or have to interact with a person who's blurred the lines amongst genders. You going to assume one or the other? Why not assume neither and just avoid using direct forms of address.

"Hi there, may I help you?"
"Will that be cash or charge, then?"
"You want fries with that?"
"Good morning, what can I do for you?"

I could go through several dozen such lines. No where do you need to throw in the superfluous and gratuitous Sir or Ma'am.
This is pretty much what I said, though. I would just not bother. But I don't think anyone should be branded as being a villain for doing otherwise. As far as I can tell, this store clerk hadn't intended any offense, yet it's become an outrage for a lot of people who really probably just love to be outraged about such things, cos what else are they gonna do in between crossword puzzles and TV soaps?
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Old 5th January 2019, 08:45 AM   #146
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Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
Which is a blanket statement that just isn't true, as evidenced by the link I supplied. There's nothing ridiculous about a lady who is able to grow a beard wanting to be addressed as a female - because she's female.
Well, since you seem to like to nitpick: A female who wants to be addressed as such should very much think twice before growing a beard even if she can.

Hans
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Old 5th January 2019, 08:50 AM   #147
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Originally Posted by MRC_Hans View Post
Well, since you seem to like to nitpick:

Not really trying to nitpick. Just trying to note that blanket statements aren't really helpful and that , nearly always, there are exceptions. I figured this was kind of the place for that sort of thing.


Quote:
A female who wants to be addressed as such should very much think twice before growing a beard even if she can.
Why?


Quote:
Hans
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Old 5th January 2019, 08:56 AM   #148
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Originally Posted by MRC_Hans View Post
A female who wants to be addressed as such should very much think twice before growing a beard even if she can.
EFA
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Old 5th January 2019, 08:59 AM   #149
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Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
Not really trying to nitpick. Just trying to note that blanket statements aren't really helpful and that , nearly always, there are exceptions. I figured this was kind of the place for that sort of thing.
That is called nitpicking.

Quote:
Why?
Uh, because she would very likely be mistaken for a man, perhaps?

... seriously ...

Oh, ya. And why would she be that? Because biological males wearing women's clothes very seriously outnumber biological females able to grow a beard. OK?

Uh, wait .... I am, of course, referring to a real, like, serious beard, not the slight stubble many women have on their upper lip if you look close.

... mmmm I think this covers it.

Hans
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Old 5th January 2019, 09:03 AM   #150
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Originally Posted by MRC_Hans View Post
That is called nitpicking.
I don't think so.


Quote:
Uh, because she would very likely be mistaken for a man, perhaps?

... seriously ...

Oh, ya. And why would she be that? Because biological males wearing women's clothes very seriously outnumber biological females able to grow a beard. OK?

Is the unwritten statement following on from this "And everyone wants to be the same as everyone else?"



Quote:
Uh, wait .... I am, of course, referring to a real, like, serious beard, not the slight stubble many women have on their upper lip if you look close.

... mmmm I think this covers it.

Hans
Some people don't find 'because that's the way everyone else does it' to be a convincing argument.
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Old 5th January 2019, 09:17 AM   #151
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Originally Posted by MRC_Hans View Post
Not really, but ... this ... person is going to have a very difficult life with that attitude.

Ideal conversation:

Attendant: "Here you are sir."

Transsexual customer: "Well, I identify as a female so please say madam, or mam."

Attendant: "Ah, yes, madam. Sorry."

Customer: "No problem. Happens all the time."

Attendant: "Yes, must be a drag."


Hans
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Old 5th January 2019, 09:28 AM   #152
Ron Swanson
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When people around Pawnee get too chummy with me, I like to address them by the wrong pronoun, and the wrong name, to make sure, they know I don't really care about them,
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Old 5th January 2019, 09:42 AM   #153
Ron_Tomkins
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Originally Posted by Ron Swanson View Post
When people around Pawnee get too chummy with me, I like to address them by the wrong pronoun, and the wrong name, to make sure, they know I don't really care about them,
Yes, that's a good one.
Ultimately, the most devastating weapon is to completely ignore the person as if they weren't in the room. But I recognize that in this particular case, it's very hard to ignore a lunatic that's screaming at your face.
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"I am a collection of water, calcium and organic molecules called Carl Sagan"

Carl Sagan
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Old 5th January 2019, 09:51 AM   #154
Ron Swanson
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Originally Posted by Pterodactyl View Post
Wow. Just learnt that “Nazi Furries” is a thing.

Best thread ever.
Now you made me feel awkward of the fact, I've known about Nazi Furrys for at least ten years
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Old 5th January 2019, 09:56 AM   #155
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Originally Posted by Gilbert Syndrome View Post
.......Plenty of men wear make-up and dress effeminately, but they still identify as men. So there's an obviously blurred line here.
This is a GREAT point, my neighbour for example is gay as all get out (do people still say that) ... and occasionally dresses up in"girls" clothes and makeup (like a few times a year) for gay bar hopping in Toronto ...

But he's a man and looks manly and has no desire to be called 'she' even while in "drag" ... therefore an offended person's appearance or clothing is not a deciding factor in assigning pronouns.
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Old 5th January 2019, 09:57 AM   #156
Ron Swanson
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Originally Posted by baron View Post
Just address them as Mein Fuhrrer.
Mine Furry?
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Old 5th January 2019, 10:01 AM   #157
Ron Swanson
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Originally Posted by Gilbert Syndrome View Post
... I understand the frustration from the person identifying as being a woman, but at the end of the day, you don't fly off the handle ....
In this case it's obvious to me the transgender / cross dresser is using her / his anger to substantiate their gender ...

Based on the "fact" if you get REALLY angry someone called you "sir" then obviously you ARE a female!
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Old 5th January 2019, 10:07 AM   #158
Ron Swanson
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Originally Posted by bytewizard View Post
Just say "Greetings, fellow citizen". Wait, I guess not.
Is "How are you today?" acceptable?
Z

This reminded me of an event many years ago

One time I was on a job (as an apprentice) and just meandering around waiting to get in the tool crib ...

The Foreman comes up to me and says "How are you today" .. so I said "Fine thank-you how are you" .. and he went into a tirade (I still remember his words)

"I didn't walk all the way across the ******* turbine floor to enquire about your ******* health ... do you have some kind of productive ******* work you can be doing!"

IDK why but I still think that's so funny
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Old 5th January 2019, 10:08 AM   #159
Ron Swanson
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Originally Posted by Ron_Tomkins View Post
Yes, that's a good one.
Ultimately, the most devastating weapon is to completely ignore the person as if they weren't in the room. But I recognize that in this particular case, it's very hard to ignore a lunatic that's screaming at your face.
agreed!
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Old 5th January 2019, 10:09 AM   #160
Gilbert Syndrome
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Originally Posted by Ron Swanson View Post
This is a GREAT point, my neighbour for example is gay as all get out (do people still say that) ... and occasionally dresses up in"girls" clothes and makeup (like a few times a year) for gay bar hopping in Toronto ...

But he's a man and looks manly and has no desire to be called 'she' even while in "drag" ... therefore an offended person's appearance or clothing is not a deciding factor in assigning pronouns.
Exactly, it's all very uncertain, and as such makes any kind of attempt at deciding what a person may or may not like to be called, pretty difficult.


Originally Posted by Ron Swanson View Post
In this case it's obvious to me the transgender / cross dresser is using her / his anger to substantiate their gender ...

Based on the "fact" if you get REALLY angry someone called you "sir" then obviously you ARE a female!
It's all very over-the-top, and the reaction to it on social media is also a bit overblown, IMO. There's so much outrage over so many silly things these days, and it's all down to the fact that people want to be seen to be outraged and offended, and want to be seen to be accepting of literally anything, no matter how truly ridiculous it may be. People in 2019 really do have too much bloody time on their hands.
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Generic proclamation of positivity:

Scouse saying - Go 'ed, is right, nice one, boss, well in, sound, belter, made up.

Usage: 'Go 'ed, lad, get us an ale in, nice one.'
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