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Old 4th January 2019, 08:10 AM   #1
Captain_Swoop
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South Carolina demands right to discriminate against Jews and non-Protestants

Quote:
THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION is considering whether to grant a South Carolina request that would effectively allow faith-based foster care agencies in the state the ability to deny Jewish parents from fostering children in its network. The argument, from the state and from the agency, is that the federal Religious Freedom Restoration Act should not force a Protestant group to work with Jewish people if it violates a tenet of their faith.
Of course they are, who didn't see this coming?

https://theintercept.com/2018/10/19/...ll-ministries/

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Old 4th January 2019, 08:54 AM   #2
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At which point it would become illegal for the state to use those faith-based agencies. Non-news.
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Old 4th January 2019, 10:23 AM   #3
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Originally Posted by casebro View Post
At which point it would become illegal for the state to use those faith-based agencies. Non-news.
Assuming the article is factual, it's very much newsworthy that the administration would try to implement policies such as this. Even if it fails.

Never mind evidence that the government is trying to implement bigoted policies! That's non-news!
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Old 4th January 2019, 10:32 AM   #4
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Fixed it for me:
Originally Posted by varwoche View Post
Assuming the article is factual, it's very much newsworthy that the administration would try to implement policies such as this. Even if it fails.

Never mind evidence proof that the government is trying to actually implementing bigoted policies! That's non-news!
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Old 4th January 2019, 10:39 AM   #5
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Originally Posted by casebro View Post
At which point it would become illegal for the state to use those faith-based agencies. Non-news.

Nothing to see here. Just an attempted subversion of possibly the most revered legal document in the world. Who's worried about that. Pansies.
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Old 4th January 2019, 11:17 AM   #6
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Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
Nothing to see here. Just an attempted subversion of possibly the most revered legal document in the world. Who's worried about that. Pansies.
Thanks for this, I'll get my mockery right one of these days...
Never mind that a state government has actually implemented bigoted, unconstitutional policies, and the federal government has indicated support. That's non-news!
This is non-news in an alternate universe.
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Old 4th January 2019, 11:49 AM   #7
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Originally Posted by varwoche View Post
This is non-news in an alternate universe.
Unfortunately, we seem to have spent the last couple of years living in it.

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Old 4th January 2019, 02:07 PM   #8
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To start off with, I pretty much hate religion.

The way I read this is that a Christian Foster Care group wants to place kids in Christian foster homes only. Why shouldn't they be able to do so?

Are they funded by the state? If so then I see a problem. End of story for me.

They are a "faith-based" foster care agency. I know little about foster care and all the red tape involved, so I'm asking - what's the problem? I mean I see Trumps name in the OP but that doesn't automatically make me against it.
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Old 4th January 2019, 04:05 PM   #9
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Originally Posted by mgidm86 View Post
To start off with, I pretty much hate religion.

The way I read this is that a Christian Foster Care group wants to place kids in Christian foster homes only. Why shouldn't they be able to do so?

Are they funded by the state? If so then I see a problem. End of story for me.

They are a "faith-based" foster care agency. I know little about foster care and all the red tape involved, so I'm asking - what's the problem? I mean I see Trumps name in the OP but that doesn't automatically make me against it.
Therein lies your problem. It's actually happening. And the governor gave it a thumbs up, via an executive order.

Miracle Hill receives federal funds. They're not allowed to discriminate based on religion. Notwithstanding, the religious nuts who run HHS indicate they support the discrimination.
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Old 4th January 2019, 04:24 PM   #10
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Originally Posted by varwoche View Post
Therein lies your problem. It's actually happening. And the governor gave it a thumbs up, via an executive order.

Miracle Hill receives federal funds. They're not allowed to discriminate based on religion. Notwithstanding, the religious nuts who run HHS indicate they support the discrimination.
This is the point!

In addition: do SC government officials intend to use Miracle Hill to place children who fall under their auspices? This too would be an unconstitutional establishment of religion.
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Old 4th January 2019, 04:28 PM   #11
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Originally Posted by casebro View Post
At which point it would become illegal for the state to use those faith-based agencies. Non-news.
Only if the court filled up with christian nationalists thinks it would be. But that is legislating from the bench and totally immoral.
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Old 4th January 2019, 04:30 PM   #12
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Originally Posted by varwoche View Post
Therein lies your problem. It's actually happening. And the governor gave it a thumbs up, via an executive order.

Miracle Hill receives federal funds. They're not allowed to discriminate based on religion. Notwithstanding, the religious nuts who run HHS indicate they support the discrimination.
Of course they are, its unconstitutionality doesn't stop the government, see how the courts got around that with the Bush faith based initiatives by ruling that no one had the standing to challenge the unconstitutional behavior in court.

But no republican give anything for any of the bill of rights other than the second amendment.
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Old 5th January 2019, 09:58 AM   #13
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
Only if the court filled up with christian nationalists thinks it would be. But that is legislating from the bench and totally immoral.
Wasn't the latest news from SCOTUS that the current bench upheld Planned Parenthood? So no, the Fundy Xtians are not all-powerful.

And this quote from the OP- "THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION is considering...". It doesn't say Trump is doing anything else but "considering". But the TDAs here already know whatever he does will be bad for somebody.
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Old 5th January 2019, 11:34 AM   #14
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Originally Posted by casebro View Post
Wasn't the latest news from SCOTUS that the current bench upheld Planned Parenthood? So no, the Fundy Xtians are not all-powerful.

And this quote from the OP- "THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION is considering...". It doesn't say Trump is doing anything else but "considering". But the TDAs here already know whatever he does will be bad for somebody.
Highlight: When exactly do you think is the best time to debate and challenge new policy initiatives: when they are first being considered or after they have already been implemented? It seems to me that the former is the most effective and logical time.

And the quote in the OP says more than just Trump is considering an unstated "something"; it presents a specific policy that is believed to be under consideration. And from my perspective that policy is a very bad idea. The belief it is under consideration may be incorrect, although clearly the issue is already "out there" in SC political debates. Or the policy may indeed be under consideration but will aborted after pushback and the fact that it was ever under consideration will be denied (the goal of discussing and opposing it now). Or the administration may be well on the way to attempting to implement it but a challenge might still halt or modify it. But in any of these 3 cases challenging the policy now is the time to do it. At worse it was not under active consideration and debating it/opposing it now might help keep it that way.

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Old 5th January 2019, 11:47 AM   #15
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It's discrimination, regardless of whether they get public funds or not.
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Old 5th January 2019, 12:07 PM   #16
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Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
It's discrimination, regardless of whether they get public funds or not.
Yeah, but in terms of the law the USA allows discrimination in certain contexts. The rules are not simple: the Roman Catholic Church is permitted to hire only Roman Catholics as priests. However if a Catholic Church seeks to hire a custodian they cannot discriminate based on religion. The concept is that religion is core to the job of priest but not of custodian. As an individual I can discriminate against people based on religion, ethnicity, etc. (e.g. who I invite to dinner) but I cannot discriminate as a public business (government funded or not).

All in all it is a delicate balance that works imperfectly. But fundamentalists want to push that balance way toward "My beliefs are the only correct ones and I can do anything I want to anyone else because God himself tells me I am right." Yet at the same time they are complaining about imaginary introductions of Sharia law into the USA.
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Old 5th January 2019, 12:47 PM   #17
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Originally Posted by mgidm86 View Post
To start off with, I pretty much hate religion.

The way I read this is that a Christian Foster Care group wants to place kids in Christian foster homes only. Why shouldn't they be able to do so?

Are they funded by the state? If so then I see a problem. End of story for me.

They are a "faith-based" foster care agency. I know little about foster care and all the red tape involved, so I'm asking - what's the problem? I mean I see Trumps name in the OP but that doesn't automatically make me against it.
Originally Posted by casebro View Post
Wasn't the latest news from SCOTUS that the current bench upheld Planned Parenthood? So no, the Fundy Xtians are not all-powerful.

And this quote from the OP- "THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION is considering...". It doesn't say Trump is doing anything else but "considering". But the TDAs here already know whatever he does will be bad for somebody.
Originally Posted by casebro View Post
At which point it would become illegal for the state to use those faith-based agencies. Non-news.
First they came for the Jews, but I wasn't a Jew...

What you're missing when you dismiss this as Trump haters and just a Christian agency is that this is one more Evangelical extremist incursion into government and beyond.

From a link within the OP article: HOW A GAY FRIENDLY AND “VERY PRO-CHOICE” TRUMP CREATED THE MOST ANTI-CHOICE, ANTI-LGBT ADMINISTRATION IN GENERATIONS (Caps aren't mine)
Quote:
But then Donald Trump won.

Wynne quickly came back to public service, becoming an early and influential member of the HHS transition team. A woman who’d just recently been a low-level functionary within the agency now had influence over staffing it at the highest levels, and, until the new director arrived, she was effectively running ORR. She got herself named Counselor for Human Services Policy, one of the most powerful positions within the department.

“The Counselor is the point person for the secretary and the agency on all major policy and program decisions,” explained Jeff Hild, who served under Obama as chief of staff for HHS’s Administration for Children & Families. “It’s a crucial position, and pretty under-the-radar as it’s not public-facing. But the people who have held that job are some of the most experienced and respected in the field of human services. During the Obama administration, the Counselors had decades of experience prior to taking on the role, including as senior staff in Congress and leaders at prominent think tanks.”

Wynne is none of that. But she does have one critical qualification: She is zealously opposed to abortion — and a slew of her allies in the movement soon poured into the building.
It's not so much that these are anti-abortionist, it's that they are filling staff positions with religious extremists.

The OP is one more example of the infiltration bubbling to the surface. It's not just a Christian foster agency, it's a move to indoctrinate all the kids that pass through their agency.
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Old 5th January 2019, 01:50 PM   #18
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Five centuries after Westphalia... Gosh.
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Old 5th January 2019, 02:05 PM   #19
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Originally Posted by casebro View Post
Wasn't the latest news from SCOTUS that the current bench upheld Planned Parenthood? So no, the Fundy Xtians are not all-powerful.

And this quote from the OP- "THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION is considering...". It doesn't say Trump is doing anything else but "considering". But the TDAs here already know whatever he does will be bad for somebody.
You overlooked that the Governor signed an executive order allowing the discrimination. Is that non-news?

You also overlooked the second link (see post #9) in which we learn:
Quote:
McMaster appealed directly to Steven Wagner, acting assistant secretary for the Administration for Children and Families (ACF), the division at the Department of Health and Human Services that administers the federal program
...
In response to follow-up inquiries in March from McMaster’s staff, Wagner promised that he was “pushing this hard” within HHS.
So no, the administration is doing more than merely considering it. Not to mention, what exactly is there to consider?
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Old 5th January 2019, 02:42 PM   #20
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Originally Posted by varwoche View Post
Therein lies your problem. It's actually happening. And the governor gave it a thumbs up, via an executive order.

Miracle Hill receives federal funds. They're not allowed to discriminate based on religion. Notwithstanding, the religious nuts who run HHS indicate they support the discrimination.
Thank you. Didn't really want to defend them, I'd love to see all religion just disappear.
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Old 5th January 2019, 06:28 PM   #21
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Quick question: How will they identify Jews and non-Protestants in order to discriminate? do they have special tattoos in mind?
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Old 5th January 2019, 06:47 PM   #22
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Originally Posted by Norman Alexander View Post
Quick question: How will they identify Jews and non-Protestants in order to discriminate? do they have special tattoos in mind?

They require prospective foster parents to provide a reference from their "pastor," and also to submit a written testimony of their faith and salvation.
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Old 7th January 2019, 10:02 AM   #23
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It is a kind of genius end run around the first amendment. They don't discriminate against jews and gays, they just outsource all the adoptions to christian organizations that discriminate against jews and gays.

Then of course no one has standing to challenge it in court and no matter how unconstitutional it is you get to keep it up. The perfect conservative solution to some of those pesky rights they hate in the constitution.
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Old 10th January 2019, 08:36 AM   #24
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Oh, pish posh! SC are mere pikers when it comes to wanting to legislate people out of existence. The ironically named Liberty Council is canvassing congress critters to get LGBTQ folk written out of the Justice for Victims of Lynching Act!!


https://www.nbcnews.com/feature/nbc-...id=recommended

Seems that their head bigot thinks anti-lynching is a gateway drug and once you acknowledge that they have a right not to by lynched, why pretty soon they'll be wanting to sit at a lunch counter or marry your sister.

It's so sad when you hear these themes reworked after a hundred years and just being applied to whatever the new target group is.
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Old 10th January 2019, 09:51 AM   #25
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
Of course they are, who didn't see this coming?

https://theintercept.com/2018/10/19/...ll-ministries/
Forcible transfer of children (which is what the state is doing when children are taken into foster care) from one group (like Protestants) to another group (like Jews) is genocide.

Would a Jewish family be OK with their child being taken into foster care and placed with a Catholic family? Would the Jewish community at large be OK with this?

Of course, this policy isn't about the Jews but since the news story is spinning it that way, I'll go along.
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Old 10th January 2019, 11:32 AM   #26
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********. Bad parents losing their children and people who aren't bad parents taking them in do not a gene group make. Some might argue that if you've decided that 'bad parents' is a group, then it deserves to go extinct before its children die or are forced to grow up maimed. The religion or ethnicity of ether bad parents or people who aren't bad parents is irrelevant as all are represented in those two groups.

Should there be a massive push to take children away based on religion, it'll hardly be a minority group managing to absorb the children of the majority. Even the First Nations children weren't all adopted and had to be housed in orphanage boarding schools. Speaking of orphanages, when was the last time you heard of one locally (or statewide, or nationwide)?
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Old 10th January 2019, 02:12 PM   #27
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Originally Posted by CaptainHowdy View Post
Forcible transfer of children (which is what the state is doing when children are taken into foster care) from one group (like Protestants) to another group (like Jews) is genocide.

Religion is not a race or ethnicity, and no one is being killed. This is patently ridiculous.
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Old 10th January 2019, 02:54 PM   #28
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Originally Posted by Silly Green Monkey View Post
Some might argue that if you've decided that 'bad parents' is a group, then it deserves to go extinct before its children die or are forced to grow up maimed. The religion or ethnicity of ether bad parents or people who aren't bad parents is irrelevant as all are represented in those two groups.
I thought of it in sort of this way.

The law allows for consideration of religion in cases where religion matters. In principle, you could argue that Christian parents have the right to insist that their children are exposed to a Christian environment.

But in this case, the issue is that supposedly-Christian parents have created a situation that is dangerous to their kids, and so the kids need to go live with someone else.

I'm not sure these are the parents we want to defer to in determining what is best for the kids. "Yeah, I'm an alcoholic drug user who beats my kids, but it is important to me that they are in a Christian home"

I'm not seeing it.
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Old 10th January 2019, 02:59 PM   #29
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Originally Posted by Myriad View Post
They require prospective foster parents to provide a reference from their "pastor," and also to submit a written testimony of their faith and salvation.
I'll prepare a template document right away and make it publicly available. I'll even advise people how to start a non-profit "Reformed Jewish Protestant" church if I have to.

So I will ask again: How will they determine who is Jewish or non-Protestant? If I say I'm Protestant, how do you prove I am not?
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Old 10th January 2019, 05:26 PM   #30
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Originally Posted by CaptainHowdy View Post
Forcible transfer of children (which is what the state is doing when children are taken into foster care) from one group (like Protestants) to another group (like Jews) is genocide.
No. The destruction of a distinct ethnic or cultural people group is genocide. Forcibly separating *all* the children from their heritage is one way to accomplish this.

Fostering *some* children is not genocide. You may want to stop and consider how thoroughly you've poisoned the well of all your other arguments, past and future, with this absurd and dishonest hyperbole.
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Old 11th January 2019, 11:50 AM   #31
CaptainHowdy
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
No. The destruction of a distinct ethnic or cultural people group is genocide. Forcibly separating *all* the children from their heritage is one way to accomplish this.
You're definition is rather narrow. I'll stick to UN definition.

Quote:
Fostering *some* children is not genocide. You may want to stop and consider how thoroughly you've poisoned the well of all your other arguments, past and future, with this absurd and dishonest hyperbole.
You know that using an official definition of genocide undermines all the arguments I will make in the future? That's quite a skill you have there.
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Old 11th January 2019, 03:09 PM   #32
theprestige
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Originally Posted by CaptainHowdy View Post
You're definition is rather narrow. I'll stick to UN definition.
The UN definition actually makes sense. Your interpretation of it does not.

Quote:
You know that using an official definition of genocide undermines all the arguments I will make in the future? That's quite a skill you have there.
You're not using the official definition, though. You're trying to apply a context-free snippet of the official definition in a context where it doesn't make sense.

Last edited by theprestige; 11th January 2019 at 03:10 PM.
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Old 12th January 2019, 03:50 AM   #33
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Originally Posted by CaptainHowdy View Post
Forcible transfer of children (which is what the state is doing when children are taken into foster care) from one group (like Protestants) to another group (like Jews) is genocide.

Would a Jewish family be OK with their child being taken into foster care and placed with a Catholic family? Would the Jewish community at large be OK with this?

Of course, this policy isn't about the Jews but since the news story is spinning it that way, I'll go along.
Except that having a non-religious approach does not prevent people adopting into the same religion as the parents. It just prevents it being compulsory.




Or indeed this:
Originally Posted by Silly Green Monkey View Post
********. Bad parents losing their children and people who aren't bad parents taking them in do not a gene group make. Some might argue that if you've decided that 'bad parents' is a group, then it deserves to go extinct before its children die or are forced to grow up maimed. The religion or ethnicity of ether bad parents or people who aren't bad parents is irrelevant as all are represented in those two groups.

Should there be a massive push to take children away based on religion, it'll hardly be a minority group managing to absorb the children of the majority. Even the First Nations children weren't all adopted and had to be housed in orphanage boarding schools. Speaking of orphanages, when was the last time you heard of one locally (or statewide, or nationwide)?
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Old 14th January 2019, 11:03 AM   #34
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Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
Nothing to see here. Just an attempted subversion of possibly the most revered legal document in the world. Who's worried about that. Pansies.
Well we all know that Republicans revere the Constitution. Except for the parts they don't like. Of course, only a left wing activist judge would rule that discriminating against non-Christians violates the first amendment.
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Old 6th February 2019, 05:26 PM   #35
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From the wonderful state that started the Civil War......
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Old 6th February 2019, 06:45 PM   #36
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Still haven't got an answer: How will they determine who is Jewish or non-Protestant? If I say I'm Protestant and have a letter from some obscure pastor in Germany, how do you prove I am not?

Because if they can't identify these people, how can they separate them?
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Old 7th February 2019, 11:27 AM   #37
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Originally Posted by Norman Alexander View Post
Still haven't got an answer: How will they determine who is Jewish or non-Protestant? If I say I'm Protestant and have a letter from some obscure pastor in Germany, how do you prove I am not?

Because if they can't identify these people, how can they separate them?

They are the ones requiring the proof.

"If you live here and are Protestant, then you should have a local church you attend. Have that pastor send us a letter."

Or: "We don't know your pastor in Germany. But here's the business card of a local pastor who speaks German. Have him talk to your guy and then send us a letter."

And: "If you're not willing to do those things, then we won't consider placing a child with you."

The "you can't prove I'm not" approach doesn't even work for buying a bottle of beer if you're young looking. You think it can get you a child to adopt?
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Old 7th February 2019, 12:53 PM   #38
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So the group does not coinsider Catholics to be Christians?
Does not surprise me. Anti Catholism is still pretty widespread among evangelicals;they just find it a good tactic to hide it most of the time.
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Old 7th February 2019, 12:57 PM   #39
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And the truly digusting thing is that Trump really does not really give a damn about religious issues. He is basically just buying the support of Christian Fundies who are whoring themselves out to somebody they know is a hypocrite when it comes to moral issues.
It is enough to make one vomit.
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Old 7th February 2019, 03:28 PM   #40
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
And the truly digusting thing is that Trump really does not really give a damn about religious issues. He is basically just buying the support of Christian Fundies who are whoring themselves out to somebody they know is a hypocrite when it comes to moral issues.
It is enough to make one vomit.

Never underestimate the human capacity for self-deception. I know several Evangelicals who fully believe that Trump had a "change of heart" and is "appointed by G-D".
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