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Old 11th January 2019, 05:48 AM   #41
jimbob
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Slightly off-topic, but you can use the mean if you eliminate data points beyond standard deviation.
Why bother? Median tells you what half the population is above and half below.
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Old 11th January 2019, 05:57 AM   #42
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
Yes, I bet Vixen's American friend is extremely proud and will vote for Trump's space force next time.




The Wall won't stop all kinds of aliens!

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We never talk politics, but strangely enough, she has a confederate flag on her lawn and goes to shooting practice, having acquired a handgun.
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Old 11th January 2019, 06:13 AM   #43
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Originally Posted by Spock Jenkins View Post
Or people that diligently save, invest wisely, spend conservatively, and stay out of debt. 5% would exceed my salary.

For from a 1% and paid my own way through college. First one in my family to graduate college.
Sure, I could say the same thing. As meager as my income was, I do have assets. But how much tax did people like Trump pay? 50% of people would pay less than $3,000 per year.
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Old 11th January 2019, 06:19 AM   #44
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Originally Posted by rjh01 View Post
Looked at the report and it says Australians are rich for two reasons
1. House prices are very high.
2. Australians have heaps of money tied up in superannuation. This money cannot be touched until retirement.
The report is by Crdit Suisse and is thus geared towards pinpointing 'individuals of high net worth'.

It states the median per adult in Australia is USD191K. It then jumps to 'household income' and states:

Quote:
A person needs net assets of just
USD 4,210 to be among the wealthiest half of
world citizens in mid-2018. However, USD
93,170 is required to be a member of the top
10% of global wealth holders, and USD
871,320 to belong to the top 1%.
Top 10%? Seriously? The average pension pot of current retirees is 126K for men and 60K for women (this is probably due to the old habit of women being housewives and the idea of private pensions for all being relatively recent).*

Also when you factor in debt:

Quote:
The time series for debt has moved broadly in
line with non-financial assets, as might be
expected given the correlation between mortgage debt and house prices. This century, debt
per adult grew at a fast rate (9%) until the
financial crisis, but has been flat since then, and
only recently overtook the previous peak value
achieved in 2007. Nowadays global household
debt equates to 15.0% of net wealth, compared
to 17.5% in 2009.
The contribution of debt to net wealth is somewhat ambiguous. On the one hand, it leads
directly to lower levels of measured wealth. But
rising debt fuels demand for assets and supports
asset price inflation, both of which tend to raise
the level of wealth. In that respect, the rapid
growth prior to 2007 and its subsequent decline
may help explain the time path of changes in
other components of wealth especially nonfinancial wealth although cause and effect are
difficult to untangle.

So in other words, although debt (mortgages, loans credit cards, leases) is deducted from a person's total 'wealth', nonetheless, debt drives up the value of the assets (houses, cars, investment and saving schemes).

Whilst the average Australian, American or European is 'wealthy' as compared to the rest of the world, a person could still fall into the lower 'wealth' percentages of their country and perceive themselves as being 'in poverty', although compared to the Third World, they are super-rich and 'rolling in it'.


*Of those who have a pension plan at all.
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Old 11th January 2019, 06:23 AM   #45
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Originally Posted by lionking View Post
And?

Most wealth is not liquid.

The more important thing to take away is that the wealth inequality in Australia is low by international standards. And having high levels of superannuation means that Australians do not have to stash away every cent for retirement. Hence more travel and fun to be had.
Travel is surely a subjective choice? Plenty of young adults take gap years to 'travel' yet have hardly any individual wealth at all. All you need is a backpack, resourcefulness and there is nothing to stop you.
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Old 11th January 2019, 06:26 AM   #46
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Originally Posted by jimbob View Post
Why bother? Median tells you what half the population is above and half below.
You still often use standard deviation to exclude extremes when calculating median.
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Old 11th January 2019, 06:26 AM   #47
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Originally Posted by Roboramma View Post
I think it's certainly a much better measure than mean wealth, for reasons that you point out.

There are still a few issues. One is that it may be comparing apples to oranges to some extent, given that cost of living in different places varies. If*, for instance, houses in Austrailia are very expensive but in Canada they are cheap, does that make Canadians poorer?

Casebro also mentions the issue of lifestyle. If one population is saving more but earning less than another population, they can still end up with more wealth than the other population because they tend to spend more of their income (on holidays, dining out, etc.).

To what extent those issues would change the story, I don't know, and they are just as much issues with measures of mean wealth as median wealth, so, again, you are certainly right that median wealth is a better measure than mean wealth.

*this is purely a hypothetical, I have no idea of the comparitive prices of real estate between Canada and Australia.
That's right. Don't forget to factor in tax. You might have a home worth >1m in the UK, but when you die, anything over 320K (or thereabouts) is taxed at almost a half of the excess in Inheritance Tax, not to mention capital gains tax, if sold.

In some countries, you are taxed at lower amounts than this.
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Old 11th January 2019, 06:27 AM   #48
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Originally Posted by MikeG View Post
I've no great interest in economics, so I haven't thought about this much or looked at opinions either way............but is this necessarily a good thing? I mean, I've no doubt that Burkina Faso or Chad, for instance, would rate extremely highly on any comparison of international wealth inequality.
No, you would find great social distance, as in, for example, Brazil or Argentina.
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Old 11th January 2019, 06:33 AM   #49
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Travel is surely a subjective choice? Plenty of young adults take gap years to 'travel' yet have hardly any individual wealth at all. All you need is a backpack, resourcefulness and there is nothing to stop you.
Had a look where Australia is on a map? What a silly post.
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Old 11th January 2019, 06:37 AM   #50
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
You still often use standard deviation to exclude extremes when calculating median.
The problem with using either, is that I wouldn't be surprised if the figures are based only on those who are earning, and possibly excludes those persons of working age who do not work (for example, the unemployed, pensioners, young mothers, the disabled).

In a country like the UK, class is also a factor. So whilst most people being working class will earn a median of XK pa, the middle-classes will likely earn X+YK, thus skewing the median upwards.
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Old 11th January 2019, 06:39 AM   #51
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Originally Posted by lionking View Post
Had a look where Australia is on a map? What a silly post.
I have had literally dozens and dozens of Aussie and Kiwi work colleagues, who whilst travelling around Europe or even living in the UK for a few years, who cannot have been so wealthy they didn't need to work their way through their travels.
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Old 11th January 2019, 06:58 AM   #52
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
The problem with using either, is that I wouldn't be surprised if the figures are based only on those who are earning, and possibly excludes those persons of working age who do not work (for example, the unemployed, pensioners, young mothers, the disabled).

In a country like the UK, class is also a factor. So whilst most people being working class will earn a median of XK pa, the middle-classes will likely earn X+YK, thus skewing the median upwards.
There are lots things you are not surprised about, yet you never provide evidence to support your surprise, and you are usually wrong.
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Old 11th January 2019, 07:21 AM   #53
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Originally Posted by lionking View Post
There are lots things you are not surprised about, yet you never provide evidence to support your surprise, and you are usually wrong.
Sounds like you have a grudge?

Quote:
The word "median" literally means the middle and, as it pertains to salaries, it is the one that, if you list in numerical order all the salaries for every individual working in an occupation, falls in the middle of the list. Half the individuals on that list earns less than the median and half earns more.
There you go.
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Old 11th January 2019, 07:24 AM   #54
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
The problem with using either, is that I wouldn't be surprised if the figures are based only on those who are earning, and possibly excludes those persons of working age who do not work (for example, the unemployed, pensioners, young mothers, the disabled).
Standard deviation helps to eliminate that, whether you use the mean or the median, assuming you're wrong. And if you're right, where's the problem?
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Old 11th January 2019, 07:37 AM   #55
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Standard deviation helps to eliminate that, whether you use the mean or the median, assuming you're wrong. And if you're right, where's the problem?
It means statistically, it could be a misleading figure, if assumptions are not stated.

Yes, leaving out the extreme ends of the standard deviations could work, but that assumes salaries follow a normal distribution. It is probably more a poisson distribution.
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Old 11th January 2019, 07:57 AM   #56
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
It means statistically, it could be a misleading figure, if assumptions are not stated.

Yes, leaving out the extreme ends of the standard deviations could work, but that assumes salaries follow a normal distribution. It is probably more a poisson distribution.
Hmmm. I love fish.
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Old 11th January 2019, 08:39 AM   #57
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
The problem with using either, is that I wouldn't be surprised if the figures are based only on those who are earning, and possibly excludes those persons of working age who do not work (for example, the unemployed, pensioners, young mothers, the disabled).

In a country like the UK, class is also a factor. So whilst most people being working class will earn a median of XK pa, the middle-classes will likely earn X+YK, thus skewing the median upwards.
There is no reason to suppose it is limited to those who are earning, and every reason to suppose it isn't.
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US 16.4% of GDP of which 48.2% is public expenditure - 7.9% of GDP is public spending
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Old 11th January 2019, 11:04 AM   #58
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Originally Posted by jimbob View Post
There is no reason to suppose it is limited to those who are earning, and every reason to suppose it isn't.
Crdit Suisse will not be interested in those without money. It is a report drawn up for international bankers, by international bankers. It is not a sociological survey.

Its scope is limited to the working population and where to target high-earning potential investors.
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Old 11th January 2019, 11:51 AM   #59
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Crdit Suisse will not be interested in those without money. It is a report drawn up for international bankers, by international bankers. It is not a sociological survey.

Its scope is limited to the working population and where to target high-earning potential investors.
From the report:
https://www.credit-suisse.com/media/...eport-2018.pdf


Quote:
For convenience, we disregard the relatively small
amount of wealth owned by children on their own
account, and frame our results in terms of the global
adult population, which totaled 5.0 billion in 2018
.
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UK 8.5% of GDP of which 83.3% is public expenditure - 7.1% of GDP is public spending
US 16.4% of GDP of which 48.2% is public expenditure - 7.9% of GDP is public spending
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Old 11th January 2019, 12:24 PM   #60
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Originally Posted by lionking View Post
I have wondered why Australians travel so much. Its because we are bloody rich.
I thought it was so you could get away from the Australian wildlife, 99% of which wants to kill you. (Except for maybe the Koala, but even then it wouldn't surprise me to find out they were venomous.)
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Old 11th January 2019, 12:31 PM   #61
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Originally Posted by Segnosaur View Post
I thought it was so you could get away from the Australian wildlife, 99% of which wants to kill you. (Except for maybe the Koala, but even then it wouldn't surprise me to find out they were venomous.)
No, they are riddled with chlamydia though.

There are even volcanoes that have erupted within human occupancy in Australia, and whose eruptions seem to have been recorded in myth.
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US 16.4% of GDP of which 48.2% is public expenditure - 7.9% of GDP is public spending
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Old 11th January 2019, 02:22 PM   #62
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
You still often use standard deviation to exclude extremes when calculating median.
No need. The Median automatically excludes extremes. 50% of the population will be above and the other 50% will be below the median. So it does not matter if 20% of the population are all super rich or only slightly richer than the rest, the median will be the same.
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Old 11th January 2019, 02:34 PM   #63
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Old 11th January 2019, 04:20 PM   #64
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Originally Posted by rjh01 View Post
No need. The Median automatically excludes extremes. 50% of the population will be above and the other 50% will be below the median. So it does not matter if 20% of the population are all super rich or only slightly richer than the rest, the median will be the same.
Exactly. I thought people understood median easily enough.
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Old 11th January 2019, 04:24 PM   #65
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Sounds like you have a grudge?



There you go.
I know what a median is. As usual your link is useless as it refers to median salaries, and this study deals with median wealth.
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