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Old 31st January 2017, 09:17 AM   #1
Dancing David
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Proof of Immortality, V for Very long discussion

Originally Posted by caveman1917 View Post
Neither is there a singular "functioning brain", there are multiple neurons and connections between them, and they are a changing array.



Would you then, by the same standard, agree that we could not discuss there being a cardinality to "brains"?
There is a standard definition of 'brain' (in neurology,medicine) the definition of 'self' or 'sense of self' is lacking. (Even by the low standards of the R&P forum)

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Old 31st January 2017, 09:18 AM   #2
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Originally Posted by caveman1917 View Post
The substrate changing is the "sense of self" changing. Unless it's a dualistic thing? So would you agree that the "substrate" is not a "countable thing"? If so, do you have an example of a "countable thing"?
That is the point, sense of self is not countable...
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Old 31st January 2017, 09:32 AM   #3
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Originally Posted by Dancing David View Post
There is a standard definition of 'brain' (in neurology,medicine) the definition of 'self' or 'sense of self' is lacking. (Even by the low standards of the R&P forum)
Originally Posted by Dancing David View Post
That is the point, sense of self is not countable...
You didn't answer my questions.
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Old 31st January 2017, 09:57 AM   #4
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Originally Posted by caveman1917 View Post
... If so, do you have an example of a "countable thing"?
Originally Posted by caveman1917 View Post
You didn't answer my questions.
There are possible injections between a car (I think in english it's called) plate number and the natural numbers. Would you please specify a working injection between "senses of self" and NN, so we can get rid of some ambiguity?
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Old 31st January 2017, 10:01 AM   #5
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Originally Posted by wea View Post
There are possible injections between a car (I think in english it's called) plate number and the natural numbers.
Are we backtracking on the "uncountable means not having a cardinality" thing?

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Would you please specify a working injection between "senses of self" and NN, so we can get rid of some ambiguity?
Is "senses of self" a set? If no, define what you mean by "injection between 'senses of self' and NN".
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Old 31st January 2017, 10:25 AM   #6
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Originally Posted by caveman1917 View Post
Is "senses of self" a set? If no, define what you mean by "injection between 'senses of self' and NN".
You seem to be the only one here thinking "they" could be countable (but Jabba). The definition of countable for a set, if I remember correctly, is that each element can be associated to a natural number. I'm not the one supposed to define that association, you are.
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Old 31st January 2017, 10:34 AM   #7
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Originally Posted by wea View Post
The definition of countable for a set, if I remember correctly, is that each element can be associated to a natural number.
Go argue with jsfisher and let me know what the conclusion is.

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I'm not the one supposed to define that association, you are.
If you're claiming that it's uncountable then it's up to you to show that it is.
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Old 31st January 2017, 10:59 AM   #8
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Originally Posted by caveman1917 View Post
If you're claiming that it's uncountable then it's up to you to show that it is.
For me, this "sense of self" is the generic name that is used to refer to the class of (ever-changing) illusions that brains generate about their activity (processes), in order to internally refer to the sum of those activities as a "unity" or a "thing" (or a "self"). This is a phylogenetic adaptation, not a thing. It's the name we use for a class of processes, not a defined entity with any defined boundary. I can't even imagine how someone (you) could try to say it's countable, it's even vaguely defined as a concept. Can you show "senses of self"? Can you order them?
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Old 31st January 2017, 11:34 AM   #9
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Originally Posted by caveman1917 View Post
You didn't answer my questions.
That is my answer, I guess you don't agree.
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Old 31st January 2017, 11:58 AM   #10
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Originally Posted by wea View Post
It's the name we use for a class of processes, not a defined entity with any defined boundary.
Well then, thread solved. Jabba you are indeed immortal because your sense of self does not have a defined boundary. It is everywhere in the universe for all time.

Quote:
I can't even imagine how someone (you) could try to say it's countable, it's even vaguely defined as a concept.
Being deliberately vague about something does not imbue that something with almost magical properties such as having no boundaries.

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Can you show "senses of self"? Can you order them?
Can you do that with brains?
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Old 31st January 2017, 12:00 PM   #11
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Originally Posted by Dancing David View Post
That is my answer, I guess you don't agree.
I'll take that as "nothing is countable".
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Old 31st January 2017, 12:06 PM   #12
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Originally Posted by caveman1917 View Post
Well then, thread solved. Jabba you are indeed immortal because your sense of self does not have a defined boundary. It is everywhere in the universe for all time.
Like Santa Klaus. Do you understand what an illusion is, caveman1917?

ETA: maybe is it "delusion"? english not my native language etc etc.

Quote:
Can you do that with brains?
Sure I can show brains. I can even count them. And order them (by weight, e.g.).
Now it's your time with "senses of self".

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Old 31st January 2017, 12:24 PM   #13
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Originally Posted by wea View Post
Like Santa Klaus. Do you understand what an illusion is, caveman1917?

ETA: maybe is it "delusion"? english not my native language etc etc.
If you think a sense of self isn't bounded by the substrate of which it is an emergent property then you're the one with the illusions, I would say.

Quote:
Sure I can show brains. I can even count them. And order them (by weight, e.g.).
Now it's your time with "senses of self".
Every brain is associated with a "sense of self", so the answer is the same as you do with brains.
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Old 31st January 2017, 12:33 PM   #14
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Originally Posted by caveman1917 View Post
Every brain is associated with a "sense of self", so the answer is the same as you do with brains.

No, not every brain has a "sense of self", it's the other way around.

The issue is that Jabba claims you can't count it the same as you do with brains, which is why people keep asking him to count "going 60 mph".
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Old 31st January 2017, 12:52 PM   #15
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Originally Posted by caveman1917 View Post
Every brain is associated with a "sense of self", so the answer is the same as you do with brains.
It has been said a lot of times in the parent thread, it's not one brain -> one sense of self, unique and immutable. It's a process. In a year or an hour etc. etc. your self perception won't be the same. On a timescale large enough it can be demonstrated (even to identity disorders, split brains etc.). Where are you going to set the limit? A ms? a ns? Why?
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Old 31st January 2017, 12:54 PM   #16
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Originally Posted by wea View Post
It has been said a lot of times in the parent thread, it's not one brain -> one sense of self, unique and immutable. It's a process. In a year or an hour etc. etc. your self perception won't be the same.
Neither will your brain. What's with the special pleading all the time?
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Old 31st January 2017, 02:11 PM   #17
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Originally Posted by caveman1917 View Post
I'll take that as "nothing is countable".
I take that as an exaggeration and speculation on your part
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Old 1st February 2017, 05:08 AM   #18
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Originally Posted by caveman1917 View Post
Neither will your brain. What's with the special pleading all the time?
There is an operational definition for brain, e.g. a working human brain is some 1011 neurons in a skull. Over time molecules are substituted, the "identity" of a particular brain is attributed to the remaining largest portion etc. It can be measured, weighted etc. by observers.
I'm still waiting for your operational definition of "sense of self". As far as I can tell "sense of self" can be observed only by its "owner", any relative statement is subjective. To declare it countable you need an injection on the natural numbers. Your function will hopefully work, as said, on Santa Klaus(es). Or the perception of hunger and fear or fantasy or emotion. I've repeatedly said I think it's a hopelessly ill-defined concept, whose existence doesn't mean there is a corresponding thing. I'd find it useful to stand corrected, why are you refusing to give your operational definition of "senses of self"?

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Old 1st February 2017, 08:23 AM   #19
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- This will take a while -- if at all.

- Iíve said it before, and must admit that the logic seems to be missing somethingÖ

1) You are the only thing (or process) that you know for sure actually exists!
2) The likelihood of you currently existing Ė given OOFLam Ė is one/∞, or virtually zero!
3) If you didnít currently exist, it would be as if there was nothing at all!
4) If you never existed, there might as well never be anything at all...

- This is what I mean by ďtarget meaningfulness.Ē Iím claiming that targets donít require red and white circles, that you and I make for real targets, that Mt Rainier is impressive, but itís not nearly as meaningful as we are.
- Iím pretty sure that this is why toontown thinks that your perspective is so important.

- Your importance and likelihood, together, are really coincidental and impressive. And my current existence and importance, together, are even more so.
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Old 1st February 2017, 08:29 AM   #20
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Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
- This will take a while -- if at all.

- Iíve said it before, and must admit that the logic seems to be missing somethingÖ

1) You are the only thing (or process) that you know for sure actually exists!
Completely irrelevant.

Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
2) The likelihood of you currently existing Ė given OOFLam Ė is one/∞, or virtually zero!
Despite discussing this for over four years, you still have not demonstrated this to be true.

Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
3) If you didnít currently exist, it would be as if there was nothing at all!
Completely irrelevant.

Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
4) If you never existed, there might as well never be anything at all...
Completely irrelevant.

Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
- This is what I mean by ďtarget meaningfulness.Ē Iím claiming that targets donít require red and white circles, that you and I make for real targets, that Mt Rainier is impressive, but itís not nearly as meaningful as we are.
All you're doing is doubling down on the Texas Sharpshooter fallacy.

Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
- Iím pretty sure that this is why toontown thinks that your perspective is so important.
And that's why he's wrong. The first step in critical thinking is to remove your own perspective and attempt to look at things objectively.

Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
- Your importance and likelihood, together, are really coincidental and impressive.
They are neither.
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Old 1st February 2017, 08:30 AM   #21
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And we're back to solipsism, as though it's never been discussed before...

Sorry, Jabba: you are not important to the universe. You're only important to yourself and those close to you. Deal with it.

Meanwhile, your self is a process, not an entity.

And you still refuse to acknowledge not only this point but the very obvious point that your existence under H (the proper, scientific version of H in which there is only your body) is far ore likely than your existence under Jabba's H (the one where you have not only a body, but a body and a soul).
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Old 1st February 2017, 08:30 AM   #22
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Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
- This will take a while -- if at all.

- Iíve said it before, and must admit that the logic seems to be missing somethingÖ

1) You are the only thing (or process) that you know for sure actually exists!
2) The likelihood of you currently existing Ė given OOFLam Ė is one/∞, or virtually zero!
3) If you didnít currently exist, it would be as if there was nothing at all!
4) If you never existed, there might as well never be anything at all...

- This is what I mean by ďtarget meaningfulness.Ē Iím claiming that targets donít require red and white circles, that you and I make for real targets, that Mt Rainier is impressive, but itís not nearly as meaningful as we are.
- Iím pretty sure that this is why toontown thinks that your perspective is so important.

- Your importance and likelihood, together, are really coincidental and impressive. And my current existence and importance, together, are even more so.
How many "going 60 mph" are there?
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Old 1st February 2017, 08:55 AM   #23
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Caveman,
- Will you talk with me?
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Old 1st February 2017, 08:56 AM   #24
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Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
- This will take a while -- if at all.

- Iíve said it before, and must admit that the logic seems to be missing somethingÖ

1) You are the only thing (or process) that you know for sure actually exists!
2) The likelihood of you currently existing Ė given OOFLam Ė is one/∞, or virtually zero!
3) If you didnít currently exist, it would be as if there was nothing at all!
4) If you never existed, there might as well never be anything at all...

Jabba, are you then willing to admit that the entire universe may only just have arisen ten minutes ago and may disappear ten minutes from now?

Are you willing to admit that the physical laws that seem to govern the workings of the universe (like gravity) are not knowable and may have reversed themselves ten times in the last 20 seconds?

Are you willing to admit that you were created in a tank by superinteligent aliens as part of some biological computer or something, that you are in that tank now, and that they will kill you when you become obsolete without you ever finding out about the simulation?

That's what solipsism means.


Quote:
- Your importance and likelihood, together, are really coincidental and impressive.

No, no, no. You've mixed up your solipsism and the material universe. If you are important because you are the only thing that you know exists, then you cannot determine how likely you are. All you know is that you exist. Your likelihood is 1. If you didn't exist, you wouldn't know you
didn't exist and there would be (to you) no universe at all.

In a material universe, you can calculate the likelihood of you being born or of you having lived events exactly as you did. It's a wildly large number which gets rapidly smaller as limits are set. The likelihood of your DNA being combined from your parents, for example, was far greater than the likelihood of each of their DNA being combined by their parents (and then growing up as they did, meeting, having children when they did).

But in a material universe, people exist. Your solipsistic argument for your importance goes away.

You've mixed two unmixable things.
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Old 1st February 2017, 08:58 AM   #25
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Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
Caveman,
- Will you talk with me?

Sigh. You've found your new Least Critical Poster, have you?

Where in your patented rules for debate does it say that you get to pick your opposition's spokesperson?
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Old 1st February 2017, 09:10 AM   #26
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Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
Caveman,
- Will you talk with me?
Why? You have plenty of people responding to you with very reasonable, thoughtful and complete answers.
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Old 1st February 2017, 09:17 AM   #27
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Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
-
[...] Iím claiming that targets donít require red and white circles, that you and I make for real targets, that Mt Rainier is impressive, but itís not nearly as meaningful as we are.
How is Mt Rainier less meaningful than us?
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Old 1st February 2017, 09:18 AM   #28
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Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
Caveman,
- Will you talk with me?
No. I think I'm pretty much done with this thread for now.
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Old 1st February 2017, 09:41 AM   #29
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Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
- This will take a while -- if at all.
No, it won't take long at all. All you've done today is what you have always done: come up with a new word or phrase to express the same begged question as before and try to get people to agree it forms part of H. You romanticize about your sense of self and on that basis alone demand that your subjective view must make you an objectively different living creature. That has nothing to do with the scientific model of consciousness, so it has no bearing on H or P(E|H).

Quote:
Iíve said it before, and must admit that the logic seems to be missing somethingÖ
The essence of a begged question is that it's missing something, in this case evidence for the proposition you're trying to establish. You want to say there's something especially "meaningful" about your existence as opposed to, say, a banana or a mountain. What's missing is the evidence that this is the case under H. You give us only a solipsist plea.

Quote:
You are the only thing (or process) that you know for sure actually exists!
Stop trying to equivocate between an entity and property. And no, we discussed and refuted your solipsism months ago. Don't just run it up the flagpole again as if it's a new idea.

Quote:
The likelihood of you currently existing Ė given OOFLam Ė is one/∞, or virtually zero!
Not by any valid argument. This is the conclusion you're trying to prove. Repeatedly stating it over and over again as if it were an axiom doesn't help you.

Further, you can't seem to decide whether only you exist or whether seven billion people exist or whether an unknown number of people exist across all dimensions of space and time. And your newfound solipsism defeats the notion that there must be an actual number of "potential" selves besides your one solipsistic self. You can't have your cake and eat it too.

It's one thing when you're simply making up numbers to put into an equation and pretending some useful information comes out of it. It's another thing when variables start the computation with one value and then arbitrarily acquire different values as needed in the midst of the computation. Shall we dispense with the notion that mathematics has anything whatsoever to do with what you're trying here?

Quote:
If you didnít currently exist, it would be as if there was nothing at all!
If you never existed, there might as well never be anything at all...

- This is what I mean by ďtarget meaningfulness.Ē
And what you've defined that as is simply your unsupported assertion that there's objectively "something" special about you because you feel there is. We went through all this angsty hogwash months ago and dispelled it. You're just trying to bring it up again.

Quote:
Iím claiming that targets donít require red and white circles, that you and I make for real targets, that Mt Rainier is impressive, but itís not nearly as meaningful as we are.
No. "Impressive" and "meaningful" are not concepts under H, let alone quantified ones. They have absolutely no bearing on H or P(E|H).

Quote:
Iím pretty sure that this is why toontown thinks that your perspective is so important.
...and why Toontown is just as wrong as you are, and why he can't shoehorn all this touchy-feely nonsense into a statistical argument any better than you can.
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Old 1st February 2017, 09:43 AM   #30
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Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
Caveman, Will you talk with me?
Are you looking for substantive feedback regarding your hypothesis? Or are you just scrambling to find someone to agree with you?
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Old 1st February 2017, 09:44 AM   #31
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Originally Posted by John Jones View Post
How is Mt Rainier less meaningful than us?
Duh, it doesn't have a soul angsty, insecure sense of self.
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Old 1st February 2017, 08:49 PM   #32
John Jones
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Originally Posted by caveman1917 View Post
No. I think I'm pretty much done with this thread for now.
Good choice. It's five years old now, and has gone precisely nowhere.

Jabba? Have you any comment?
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Old 1st February 2017, 08:59 PM   #33
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Originally Posted by John Jones View Post
Good choice. It's five years old now, and has gone precisely nowhere.

Jabba? Have you any comment?

Maybe he wants to go back around and tell us how he excluded everything except immortality from ~H. We haven't done that one in a while.
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Old 1st February 2017, 09:07 PM   #34
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Originally Posted by John Jones View Post
Good choice. It's five years old now, and has gone precisely nowhere.

Jabba? Have you any comment?
I shall self censor and decline to post what I really think.
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Old 1st February 2017, 09:50 PM   #35
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Old 2nd February 2017, 12:27 AM   #36
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Originally Posted by Loss Leader View Post
Maybe he wants to go back around and tell us how he excluded everything except immortality from ~H. We haven't done that one in a while.

Has he done that ever?
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Old 2nd February 2017, 05:11 AM   #37
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Can someone summarize the results of this discussion? Is the proof complete yet?
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Old 2nd February 2017, 05:20 AM   #38
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Originally Posted by TubbaBlubba View Post
Can someone summarize the results of this discussion? Is the proof complete yet?
Yes, the proof was perfect on day one. Getting everyone to see its perfection is taking a little time.
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Old 2nd February 2017, 05:20 AM   #39
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Originally Posted by TubbaBlubba View Post
Can someone summarize the results of this discussion? Is the proof complete yet?
Complete and airtight. We're all going to live forever, the Shroud of Turin is real, and spending half a decade not talking to one arbitrary spokesperson for the other side at a time is the best form of debate.
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Old 2nd February 2017, 06:55 AM   #40
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I am continually baffled Jabba.
You come here to this "hall of skeptics", presumably under some misunderstanding that if you can "win" an argument here, with the harshest of critics, then you must be correct.

But then, you ignore all 99% critics and instead desperately seek 1 person who might say yes to you in a field of dozens saying no.
Quoting Toontown as if he's fully on your side and he's a skeptic, therefore we lose, is kinda silly.

Why are you posting here again? I just don't understand. Who is it you are trying to fool?

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