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Old 2nd February 2017, 08:00 AM   #41
sackett
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Jabba's trying to fool himself, of course.

And succeeding.
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Old 2nd February 2017, 08:44 AM   #42
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Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
3) If you didn’t currently exist, it would be as if there was nothing at all!
4) If you never existed, there might as well never be anything at all...
Jabba, while I would be sad if you ceased to existed, why would it be as if there was nothing at all? I certainly see the other parts of existence. If you never existed, my experience would not include Jabba, but the rest of existence would still be there.

My awareness of something does not change whether or not it exists. That is true for "souls" or someone's capability to use logic as well.
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Old 2nd February 2017, 09:59 AM   #43
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Originally Posted by JoeBentley View Post
Complete and airtight. We're all going to live forever, the Shroud of Turin is real, and spending half a decade not talking to one arbitrary spokesperson for the other side at a time is the best form of debate.

And if the only thing you know about something is that it has four legs, you can conclude that it is a dog.
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Old 2nd February 2017, 10:07 AM   #44
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Originally Posted by Mojo View Post
And if the only thing you know about something is that it has four legs, you can conclude that it is a dog.
Correction, there is a 1 over infinity chance that its "not-a-dog"
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Old 2nd February 2017, 11:02 AM   #45
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Actually, I think I may have got that wrong. I think the argument was that if something has four legs, that is evidence that it is a dog even if it weighs 15,000lbs and has a trunk.
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Old 2nd February 2017, 01:42 PM   #46
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Originally Posted by Mojo View Post
Actually, I think I may have got that wrong. I think the argument was that if something has four legs, that is evidence that it is a dog even if it weighs 15,000lbs and has a trunk.
You're joking, but I spent three years in law school learning the difference between "evidence" and "proof." I have to dig out my old "John and Mary" hypotheticals from my Yrreg days.


ETA: Found it. The conversation starts here. But be warned <SNIP>

Edited by Locknar:  Breach of rule 12 content removed.
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Old 2nd February 2017, 02:01 PM   #47
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Originally Posted by Loss Leader View Post
You're joking, but I spent three years in law school learning the difference between "evidence" and "proof." I have to dig out my old "John and Mary" hypotheticals from my Yrreg days.
Proof is what you drink, right?
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Old 2nd February 2017, 02:12 PM   #48
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Originally Posted by CriticalThanking View Post
Jabba, while I would be sad if you ceased to existed, why would it be as if there was nothing at all? I certainly see the other parts of existence. If you never existed, my experience would not include Jabba, but the rest of existence would still be there.

My awareness of something does not change whether or not it exists. That is true for "souls" or someone's capability to use logic as well.
Jabba is falling back on Solipsism for the ∞ argument for the hundredth time.

It has never worked for him before.
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Old 3rd February 2017, 02:59 AM   #49
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Originally Posted by Loss Leader View Post
You're joking, but I spent three years in law school learning the difference between "evidence" and "proof."
Originally Posted by jsfisher View Post
Proof is what you drink, right?
IIRC that was the thread that spawned the "Proof is for whiskey, I'd settle for some evidence" quote.
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Old 3rd February 2017, 10:22 AM   #50
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For now, here’s what I think.


1. We take our selves, our consciousnesses, totally for granted.
2. When, in truth, we are the very last things (or processes) we should take for granted.
3. This idea seems impossible to communicate effectively…
4. We simply shouldn’t be here; yet we take ourselves totally for granted.
5. Where in the hell did we come from?

6. Nothing makes sense.
7. Either there has always been something, or at one time there was nothing.
8. That at one time there was nothing certainly doesn't make sense.
9. However, that there has always been something doesn't make sense either…
10. And, that sometime there will be nothing, also doesn’t make sense.
11. My best guess is that time is infinite – that there has always been something, and will always be something.
12. But then, that’s a pretty weak guess, and maybe a better guess is that my parameters are somehow wrong to begin with.
13. How about multiverses?
14. But still, one way or another, infinity seems to make the most sense.
15. As does there being an infinity of potential selves, awarenesses or consciousnesses.
16. And if so, the likelihood of my current existence, and the posterior probability of OOFLam must both be virtually zero.

17. And then, I am the only thing (or process) that I know for sure actually exists!
18. I don’t think that I’m the only thing (or process) that exists – unless, we are (somehow) all the same.
19. This isn’t solipsism – it’s the truth.
20. But then, the likelihood of me currently existing – given OOFLam – is one/∞, or virtually zero!

21. Now, this doesn’t mean that OOFLam is necessarily wrong -- unless I’m a legitimate target, it only means that the likelihood of me currently existing – given OOFLam – is one/∞, or virtually zero!

22. If I didn’t currently exist, it would be as if there were nothing!
23. If I never existed, it would be as if there were(?) never anything...
24. This is what I mean by “target meaningfulness.”
25. There are different shades of target -- some targets are much more obvious than are others.
26. I’m claiming that targets don’t require red and white circles, that you and I make for real targets, that Mt Rainier is impressive, but Mt Rainier is not nearly as meaningful as are we.
27. My importance and likelihood, together, are really coincidental and impressive.
28. I suspect that the posterior probability of an hypothesis that claims the likelihood of an occurring event to be virtually zero should be considered probably wrong…
29. I suspect that modern science is well off the mark, and at some point we'll figure that what is now considered modern science will be compared to the science before Copernicus.

30. That’s all I can think of for now.
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Old 3rd February 2017, 10:23 AM   #51
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Quote:
But then, the likelihood of me currently existing – given OOFLam – is one/∞, or virtually zero!
You still haven't demonstrated that.
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Old 3rd February 2017, 10:27 AM   #52
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So you continue to refuse to consider a single thing that anyone has ever said to you. Gosh, what a surprise.
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Old 3rd February 2017, 10:36 AM   #53
Hokulele
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Originally Posted by Jabba
3. This idea seems impossible to communicate effectively…

That is because you refuse to listen to what other people are saying.
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Old 3rd February 2017, 10:48 AM   #54
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Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
1. We take our selves, our consciousnesses, totally for granted.
2. When, in truth, we are the very last things (or processes) we should take for granted.
3. This idea seems impossible to communicate effectively…
4. We simply shouldn’t be here; yet we take ourselves totally for granted.
5. Where in the hell did we come from?

6. Nothing makes sense.
All interesting discussion/questions, but not relevant to proof of immortality.

I'll be Bach.
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Old 3rd February 2017, 10:49 AM   #55
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Originally Posted by Jabba
7. Either there has always been something, or at one time there was nothing.
8. That at one time there was nothing certainly doesn't make sense.
9. However, that there has always been something doesn't make sense either…
Whether or not you can make sense of something has little bearing on its truth value. I have a math degree, but don't have a hope of doing the math around space-time without much, much more study. I am arrogant, but not arrogant enough to claim that because tensors don't make sense to me people who use/study them are wrong.

I'll be Beethoven.
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Old 3rd February 2017, 10:51 AM   #56
CriticalThanking
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Originally Posted by Jabba
10. And, that sometime there will be nothing, also doesn’t make sense.
11. My best guess is that time is infinite – that there has always been something, and will always be something.
12. But then, that’s a pretty weak guess, and maybe a better guess is that my parameters are somehow wrong to begin with.
13. How about multiverses?
14. But still, one way or another, infinity seems to make the most sense.
AS long as you admit you have no evidence for that, no one will challenge that you are free to say which answer "feels" best to you.

I'll be darned.
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Old 3rd February 2017, 10:56 AM   #57
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Originally Posted by Jabba
15. As does there being an infinity of potential selves, awarenesses or consciousnesses.
16. And if so, the likelihood of my current existence, and the posterior probability of OOFLam must both be virtually zero.
And we are finally to something on the thread topic! It may feel understandable/right to you, but to convince others, you need evidence and decent logic. Many in the thread have patiently pointed out the problems with what you have presented.

I recommend you look for the Skeptics Guide to the Universe or Quackcast episodes on P value and Bayes. They don't get into the math, but they bring up critical points - there must be prior plausibility before the results can be useful. A P value of 0.005 does not prove magic exists. At best it means more study (or better study definition and controls) might be warranted.

I'll be in my tent.
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Old 3rd February 2017, 11:07 AM   #58
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Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
For now, here’s what I think.
Same pointless navel-gazing dump as before. Jabba, you're a mature adult. Start writing like one, not like an angsty teenager.

Quote:
19. This isn’t solipsism – it’s the truth.
No, it's solipsism.

Quote:
20. But then, the likelihood of me currently existing – given OOFLam – is one/∞, or virtually zero!
No. You have no Big Denominator to make this happen. Further, your new love affair with solipsism undermines the "potential selves" thing you were using for the past three months to try to get you Big Denominator to happen.

Quote:
30. That’s all I can think of for now.
And it's garbage, Jabba. It's no better than the same woo-woo garbage you've been slinging for going-on five years now. There's no usable math anywhere in this post, and you've obviously settled into a long-term plan to repeat the same garbage over and over again regardless of what's said to you.

So the question you really need to answer at this point is why a rational person should listen to you?
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Old 3rd February 2017, 11:11 AM   #59
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Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
For now, here’s what I think.


1.We take our selves, our consciousnesses, totally for granted.
2.When, in truth, we are the very last things (or processes) we should take for granted.
3.This idea seems impossible to communicate effectively…
4.We simply shouldn’t be here; yet we take ourselves totally for granted.
5.Where in the hell did we come from?

6.Nothing makes sense.
7.Either there has always been something, or at one time there was nothing.
8.That at one time there was nothing certainly doesn't make sense.
9.However, that there has always been something doesn't make sense either…
10.And, that sometime there will be nothing, also doesn’t make sense.
11.My best guess is that time is infinite – that there has always been something, and will always be something.
12.But then, that’s a pretty weak guess, and maybe a better guess is that my parameters are somehow wrong to begin with.
13.How about multiverses?
14.But still, one way or another, infinity seems to make the most sense.
15.As does there being an infinity of potential selves, awarenesses or consciousnesses.
16.And if so, the likelihood of my current existence, and the posterior probability of OOFLam must both be virtually zero.

17.And then, I am the only thing (or process) that I know for sure actually exists!
18.I don’t think that I’m the only thing (or process) that exists – unless, we are (somehow) all the same.
19.This isn’t solipsism – it’s the truth.
20.But then, the likelihood of me currently existing – given OOFLam – is one/∞, or virtually zero!

21.Now, this doesn’t mean that OOFLam is necessarily wrong -- unless I’m a legitimate target, it only means that the likelihood of me currently existing – given OOFLam – is one/∞, or virtually zero!

22.If I didn’t currently exist, it would be as if there were nothing!
23.If I never existed, it would be as if there were(?) never anything...
24.This is what I mean by “target meaningfulness.”
25. There are different shades of target -- some targets are much more obvious than are others.
26. I’m claiming that targets don’t require red and white circles, that you and I make for real targets, that Mt Rainier is impressive, but Mt Rainier is not nearly as meaningful as are we.
27.My importance and likelihood, together, are really coincidental and impressive.
28.I suspect that the posterior probability of an hypothesis that claims the likelihood of an occurring event to be virtually zero should be considered probably wrong…
29. I suspect that modern science is well off the mark, and at some point we'll figure that what is now considered modern science will be compared to the science before Copernicus.

30.That’s all I can think of for now.
Thank god! He ran out of numbers!

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Old 3rd February 2017, 11:13 AM   #60
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Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
1. We take our selves, our consciousnesses, totally for granted.
Meaningless.

Quote:
2. When, in truth, we are the very last things (or processes) we should take for granted.
Equally meaningless.

Quote:
3. This idea seems impossible to communicate effectively…
Other people would take that information in a different direction.

Quote:
4. We simply shouldn’t be here;
Begging the question.

Quote:
yet we take ourselves totally for granted.
Meaningless.

Quote:
Where in the hell did we come from?
Answered multiple times.


Quote:
Nothing makes sense.
To you maybe.

Quote:
Either there has always been something, or at one time there was nothing.
Meaningless truism that has nothing to do with anything.

Quote:
That at one time there was nothing certainly doesn't make sense.
Argument from incredulity.

Quote:
However, that there has always been something doesn't make sense either…
Argument from incredulity / bad attempt in a making a force fake paradox.

Quote:
And, that sometime there will be nothing, also doesn’t make sense.
Further argument from incredulity.

Quote:
My best guess is that time is infinite – that there has always been something, and will always be something.
Evidence-less assertion.

Quote:
But then, that’s a pretty weak guess, and maybe a better guess is that my parameters are somehow wrong to begin with.
Jabba how is it your primary argument is how much your arguments don't make sense because think don't make sense to you?

Quote:
How about multiverses?
They are part of a balanced breakfast? They are a word you heard in a sci-fi movie and think you can drop into an argument despite not understanding it?

Quote:
But still, one way or another, infinity seems to make the most sense.
You missed like... all the step in that argument.

Quote:
As does there being an infinity of potential selves, awarenesses or consciousnesses.
Wrong.

Quote:
And if so, the likelihood of my current existence, and the posterior probability of OOFLam must both be virtually zero.
Wronger.

Quote:
And then, I am the only thing (or process) that I know for sure actually exists!
Congratulations you rediscovered solipsism for the billionth time.

Quote:
I don’t think that I’m the only thing (or process) that exists – unless, we are (somehow) all the same.
Wronger than wrong.

Quote:
This isn’t solipsism – it’s the truth.
Wronger still.

Quote:
But then, the likelihood of me currently existing – given OOFLam – is one/∞, or virtually zero!
Not even wrong.

Quote:
Now, this doesn’t mean that OOFLam is necessarily wrong -- unless I’m a legitimate target, it only means that the likelihood of me currently existing – given OOFLam – is one/∞, or virtually zero!
Fractally wrong.

Quote:
If I didn’t currently exist, it would be as if there were nothing!
Self centered egotism. Also wrong.

Quote:
If I never existed, it would be as if there were(?) never anything...
Even more self centered bordering on delusions of Godhood. Also wrong.

Quote:
This is what I mean by “target meaningfulness.”
Word Salad.

Quote:
There are different shades of target -- some targets are much more obvious than are others.
Time Cube.

Quote:
I’m claiming that targets don’t require red and white circles, that you and I make for real targets, that Mt Rainier is impressive, but Mt Rainier is not nearly as meaningful as are we.
Wronger than the wrongest wrong that has ever been wronged.

Quote:
My importance and likelihood, together, are really coincidental and impressive.
Self center and wrong.

Quote:
I suspect that the posterior probability of an hypothesis that claims the likelihood of an occurring event to be virtually zero should be considered probably wrong.
Wrong.

Quote:
I suspect that modern science is well off the mark, and at some point we'll figure that what is now considered modern science will be compared to the science before Copernicus.
Wrong and self defeating since you, somehow with a straight face, keep claiming you are using science.

Quote:
That’s all I can think of for now.
You'll be back.
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Old 3rd February 2017, 11:32 AM   #61
abaddon
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Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
For now, here’s what I think.


1. We take our selves, our consciousnesses, totally for granted.
Some do and some do not. Your gross generalisation fails.

Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
2. When, in truth, we are the very last things (or processes) we should take for granted.
Restatement of point one. Useless.

Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
3. This idea seems impossible to communicate effectively…
Nope. You are unable to communicate what you intend. There is a difference in there.

Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
4. We simply shouldn’t be here; yet we take ourselves totally for granted.
Why should we not be here? You have never explained why not.

Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
5. Where in the hell did we come from?
Primordial soup. There is no deity.

Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
6. Nothing makes sense.
Wait. You can't figure it out therefore nobody else can? Is that you claim du jour?

Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
7. Either there has always been something, or at one time there was nothing.
So what? Neither supports your deity of choice. Why you think it might is anyone's guess.

Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
8. That at one time there was nothing certainly doesn't make sense.
So you claim. Prove it

Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
9. However, that there has always been something doesn't make sense either…
Then your deity of choice is out the window and thrown under the bus.

Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
10. And, that sometime there will be nothing, also doesn’t make sense.
Why? Demonstrate that at some point in the future there will not be nothing. You cannot.

Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
11. My best guess is that time is infinite – that there has always been something, and will always be something.
Wild guesses are utterly useless.

Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
12. But then, that’s a pretty weak guess, and maybe a better guess is that my parameters are somehow wrong to begin with.
That has already been established.

Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
13. How about multiverses?
What about them?

Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
14. But still, one way or another, infinity seems to make the most sense.
Not demonstrated. It is simply crap you made up

Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
15. As does there being an infinity of potential selves, awarenesses or consciousnesses.
Already demonstrated to be false.

Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
16. And if so, the likelihood of my current existence, and the posterior probability of OOFLam must both be virtually zero.
Already demonstrated to be false.

Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
17. And then, I am the only thing (or process) that I know for sure actually exists!
Really? Jump off a tall building and tell us all how it worked out for you afterwards.

Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
18. I don’t think that I’m the only thing (or process) that exists – unless, we are (somehow) all the same.
19. This isn’t solipsism – it’s the truth.
Nope that is outright solipsism.

Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
20. But then, the likelihood of me currently existing – given OOFLam – is one/∞, or virtually zero!
Already demonstrated to be false.

Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
21. Now, this doesn’t mean that OOFLam is necessarily wrong -- unless I’m a legitimate target, it only means that the likelihood of me currently existing – given OOFLam – is one/∞, or virtually zero!
Texas sharpshooter again. Stop it.

Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
22. If I didn’t currently exist, it would be as if there were nothing!
Nope. It would be as if YOU never existed. Everyone else would continue on as normal.
Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
23. If I never existed, it would be as if there were(?) never anything...
Mostly, we wouldn't care and would simply get on with our lives as normal if you never existed. You seem to have an inflated notion of your own existence. It isn't real.

Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
24. This is what I mean by “target meaningfulness.”
Nope. What you really mean is that you consider yourself to be some fashion of special snowflake and that you consider all of the rest of us to be figments of your solipsist imaginings.

Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
25. There are different shades of target -- some targets are much more obvious than are others.
Agreed. You are an obvious target.

Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
26. I’m claiming that targets don’t require red and white circles, that you and I make for real targets, that Mt Rainier is impressive, but Mt Rainier is not nearly as meaningful as are we.
What a load. You have already taken the solipsist path. None of the rest of us even exist.

Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
27. My importance and likelihood, together, are really coincidental and impressive.
You are not coincidental (except trivially). You are not impressive. You are not important. None of us are. You might just as well be claiming to be jesus.

Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
28. I suspect that the posterior probability of an hypothesis that claims the likelihood of an occurring event to be virtually zero should be considered probably wrong…
Why? We already know that you are utterly wrong. There well may be other levels of wrong in your claims, but once your basic claims have been demonstrated to be devoid of any foundation, why should anyone waste the time to travel down that road?

Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
29. I suspect that modern science is well off the mark, and at some point we'll figure that what is now considered modern science will be compared to the science before Copernicus.
The Gallileo appeal by covert means. No. Ain't going to happen.

Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
30. That’s all I can think of for now.
Let me get this straight. All you can think of is the litany of failed arguments you have presented for years and ignore the copious rebuttals presented at every step. You are stating that this is the best you can do? Is that correct?
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Old 3rd February 2017, 11:52 AM   #62
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Originally Posted by Beady View Post
Thank god! He ran out of numbers!

Do you mean to say that 30=∞
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Old 3rd February 2017, 12:07 PM   #63
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Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
For now, here’s what I think.
17. And then, I am the only thing (or process) that I know for sure actually exists!
I see this as a frequent setting off point for idealism, I think it is just an assumption
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Old 3rd February 2017, 12:16 PM   #64
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There's nothing new here. Jabba ignores everything that has been addressed and then simply re-posts the same items with no new insight added.
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Old 3rd February 2017, 12:19 PM   #65
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Originally Posted by Monza View Post
There's nothing new here. Jabba ignores everything that has been addressed and then simply re-posts the same items with no new insight added.
If he posts the same thing twice, is it the same post? Or two different posts?

Does that mean there are an infinite number of potential posts?

If so, the likelihood of any one post existing is virtually zero.

I'll be in my bunk.
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Old 3rd February 2017, 02:42 PM   #66
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Really? You're just going to repeat yourself Jabba? This is getting too boring even for me.

Fine, you win. I agree. You have proved immortality. Go post my concession on whatever website you want and bask in your immortality.
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Old 3rd February 2017, 03:09 PM   #67
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Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
For now, here’s what I think.

<Snip the same mistakes as always>
This is what you've - wrongly - thought for over four years, Jabba. Don't you think it's about time you responded to some of the posts pointing out the fatal flaws in it? Or at least made some attempt to understand them?
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Old 3rd February 2017, 03:10 PM   #68
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Originally Posted by Monza View Post
There's nothing new here. Jabba ignores everything that has been addressed and then simply re-posts the same items with no new insight added.
At this point it kinda feels like we're exploiting a known bug to trigger a server crash. I wonder if this means Jabba's going to select a new LCP.
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Old 3rd February 2017, 03:35 PM   #69
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Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
For now, here’s what I think.
1. We take our selves, our consciousnesses, totally for granted.
Wrong
Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
2. When, in truth, we are the very last things (or processes) we should take for granted.
Since most of us don't take our consciousness for granted, this is moot.
Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
3. This idea seems impossible to communicate effectively…
That is because it is wrong.
Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
4. We simply shouldn’t be here; yet we take ourselves totally for granted.
Why shouldn't we be here?
Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
5. Where in the hell did we come from?
Have you heard of evolution?

Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
6. Nothing makes sense.
Codswallop. Lots of things make sense. Some things require study to understand.
Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
7. Either there has always been something, or at one time there was nothing.
And so...?
Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
8. That at one time there was nothing certainly doesn't make sense.
It is less likely than the alternative, but we will need to get closer to T=0 before we can know for sure.
Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
9. However, that there has always been something doesn't make sense either…
Why not?
Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
10. And, that sometime there will be nothing, also doesn’t make sense.
Has anyone proposed this other than you?
Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
11. My best guess is that time is infinite – that there has always been something, and will always be something.
Your best guess might be right, but I'll stick with science.
Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
12. But then, that’s a pretty weak guess, and maybe a better guess is that my parameters are somehow wrong to begin with.
Ya think?
Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
13. How about multiverses?
How about them? It's an hypothesis, one among many others.
Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
14. But still, one way or another, infinity seems to make the most sense.
To you. Not to many other people.
Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
15. As does there being an infinity of potential selves, awarenesses or consciousnesses.
See above.
Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
16. And if so, the likelihood of my current existence, and the posterior probability of OOFLam must both be virtually zero.
Utter unmitigated codswallop.

Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
17. And then, I am the only thing (or process) that I know for sure actually exists!
Pure solipsism
Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
18. I don’t think that I’m the only thing (or process) that exists – unless, we are (somehow) all the same.
Still solipsism
Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
19. This isn’t solipsism – it’s the truth.
No, it's solipsism.
Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
20. But then, the likelihood of me currently existing – given OOFLam – is one/∞, or virtually zero!
Codswallop and solipsism writ large.

Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
21. Now, this doesn’t mean that OOFLam is necessarily wrong -- unless I’m a legitimate target, it only means that the likelihood of me currently existing – given OOFLam – is one/∞, or virtually zero!
No, that doesn't follow.

Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
22. If I didn’t currently exist, it would be as if there were nothing!
Only to YOU. That is the solipsistic view. If you didn't exist, the rest of the world would just carry on regardless.
Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
23. If I never existed, it would be as if there were(?) never anything...
Again, only from your solipsistic perspective. If you never existed, the universe would carry on just as it is.
Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
24. This is what I mean by “target meaningfulness.”
Which is the very definition of the Texas Sharpshooter fallacy.
Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
25. There are different shades of target -- some targets are much more obvious than are others.
Codswallop.
Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
26. I’m claiming that targets don’t require red and white circles, that you and I make for real targets, that Mt Rainier is impressive, but Mt Rainier is not nearly as meaningful as are we.
Nonsense (I got fed up with typing codswallop).
Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
27. My importance and likelihood, together, are really coincidental and impressive.
More solipsism. There is nothing coincidental or impressive about anyone's existence.
Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
28. I suspect that the posterior probability of an hypothesis that claims the likelihood of an occurring event to be virtually zero should be considered probably wrong…
I suspect that you have no real idea about how to use Bayes' Theorem.
Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
29. I suspect that modern science is well off the mark, and at some point we'll figure that what is now considered modern science will be compared to the science before Copernicus.
In a thousand years, if humans are still in existence, I expect that science will have answered many more questions and rescinded some things that we currently think are true. But so what? That doesn't mean that your deity of choice exists, or that immortality is true, or that a solipsistic world view is more valid than the currently accepted hypothesis that we are here now, we won't be here forever, and that none of us is individually necessary to the universe.

Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
30. That’s all I can think of for now.
And yet, none of it made a lick of sense.

ETA I'll be on my sofa.
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Old 3rd February 2017, 05:20 PM   #70
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Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
For now, here’s what I think.


1. We take our selves, our consciousnesses, totally for granted.
[....]

30. That’s all I can think of for now.
This is your 19th Nervous Breakdown. It's all you have talked about for 5 years.
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Old 3rd February 2017, 07:26 PM   #71
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Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
Where in the hell did we come from?

I don't know about you, but I just came from the Stop & Shop.


Quote:
6. Nothing makes sense.

Which is why we assume as little as possible and test the rest in a repeatable, falsifiable manner.


Quote:
13. How about multiverses?

How about them? I think they've got a good chance to win the pennant this years.



Quote:
20. But then, the likelihood of me currently existing – given OOFLam – is one/∞, or virtually zero!

You've never shown that the denominator is infinity. There is no such thing as "virtually" zero. Low probability events happen all the time.


Quote:
22. If I didn’t currently exist, it would be as if there were nothing!

Well, there'd be one guy less. But I'm sure they could have still found a buyer for your house.


Quote:
24. This is what I mean by “target meaningfulness.”

That's not what anybody else means by it, to the extent it's a real term.



Quote:
Mt Rainier is impressive, but Mt Rainier is not nearly as meaningful as are we.

Rear Admiral Peter Rainier would be so sad to hear that. Not only did he beat increadible odds by existing but he got a volcano named after him.


Quote:
27. My importance and likelihood, together, are really coincidental and impressive.

Neither is coincidental. They actually appear to be the same thing. There may have been a small chance that you would exist as you are today, but if you didn't exist you wouldn't be "important" by your definition. It's like me pointing out the astonishing coincidence that my wife both gave birth and is a female.


Quote:
29. I suspect that modern science is well off the mark

"I suspect the groom would like to delay."

-Four Weddings and a Funeral
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Old 4th February 2017, 12:55 AM   #72
Filippo Lippi
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Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
For now, here’s what I think.


1. We take our selves, our consciousnesses, totally for granted.
2. When, in truth, we are the very last things (or processes) we should take for granted.
3. This idea seems impossible to communicate effectively…
4. We simply shouldn’t be here; yet we take ourselves totally for granted.
5. Where in the hell did we come from?

6. Nothing makes sense.
7. Either there has always been something, or at one time there was nothing.
8. That at one time there was nothing certainly doesn't make sense.
9. However, that there has always been something doesn't make sense either…
10. And, that sometime there will be nothing, also doesn’t make sense.
11. My best guess is that time is infinite – that there has always been something, and will always be something.
12. But then, that’s a pretty weak guess, and maybe a better guess is that my parameters are somehow wrong to begin with.
13. How about multiverses?
14. But still, one way or another, infinity seems to make the most sense.
15. As does there being an infinity of potential selves, awarenesses or consciousnesses.
16. And if so, the likelihood of my current existence, and the posterior probability of OOFLam must both be virtually zero.

17. And then, I am the only thing (or process) that I know for sure actually exists!
18. I don’t think that I’m the only thing (or process) that exists – unless, we are (somehow) all the same.
19. This isn’t solipsism – it’s the truth.
20. But then, the likelihood of me currently existing – given OOFLam – is one/∞, or virtually zero!

21. Now, this doesn’t mean that OOFLam is necessarily wrong -- unless I’m a legitimate target, it only means that the likelihood of me currently existing – given OOFLam – is one/∞, or virtually zero!

22. If I didn’t currently exist, it would be as if there were nothing!
23. If I never existed, it would be as if there were(?) never anything...
24. This is what I mean by “target meaningfulness.”
25. There are different shades of target -- some targets are much more obvious than are others.
26. I’m claiming that targets don’t require red and white circles, that you and I make for real targets, that Mt Rainier is impressive, but Mt Rainier is not nearly as meaningful as are we.
27. My importance and likelihood, together, are really coincidental and impressive.
28. I suspect that the posterior probability of an hypothesis that claims the likelihood of an occurring event to be virtually zero should be considered probably wrong…
29. I suspect that modern science is well off the mark, and at some point we'll figure that what is now considered modern science will be compared to the science before Copernicus.

30. That’s all I can think of for now.
New thread, new list of abject bollocks
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Old 4th February 2017, 08:58 AM   #73
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- I think I'm done...

- As you might expect, I still think I'm right -- but I also think that I've run out of steam.
- I kept hoping that I could figure out a way to express my opinion so that a couple of road dogs here would see what I mean and, at least roughly, agree -- but, no such luck.

- As you also might expect, I can't resist repeating the basic idea -- i.e., seems like there has to be an infinity of potential selves/"souls" (whatever they are). And, if so, OOFLam must be wrong -- given OOFLam, the likelihood of my current existence should be virtually zero. And, any reasonably possible alternative explanation should outweigh chance and luck by a long shot.
- I think that does it...

- Though, I think I'll write to Marilyn vos Savant.
- I may be back.
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Old 4th February 2017, 09:00 AM   #74
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We all see what you mean, Jabba, but we will never agree because we - unlike you - also see why you are wrong.
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Old 4th February 2017, 09:23 AM   #75
theprestige
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NVM
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Old 4th February 2017, 10:08 AM   #76
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Jabba, if you think you're right, but you can't show how you're right, you're not right.
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Old 4th February 2017, 10:11 AM   #77
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The problem is, Jabba, you refuse to even consider that there is no such thing as a soul.
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Old 4th February 2017, 10:18 AM   #78
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Jabba believe it or not while I will not do you the disservice of being dishonest by telling that this thread has not been treated with a high degree of, at most charitable, bemusement by most involved for some time now even after all this we don't want you to just walk away in a huff.

We want you to learn something or at the very least demonstrate the ability to take in and process information on any level. It's just so frustrating that everything you say and do is just so antithetical to that.
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Old 4th February 2017, 10:19 AM   #79
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Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
I think I'm done...
You were done years ago. But just as you did in the Shroud thread, you kept arguing long after you lost. Effective debate stops after one party loses. It doesn't continue in perpetuity so that the losing party can figure out a way to save face.

Quote:
As you might expect, I still think I'm right --
You aren't.

Yes, I can be that confident. Certain arguments are just broken at their very core, and yours is one of them. The only reason it has taken so long for you to concede is that you haven't been honest either with yourself or with your critics. You have pursued a failed argument simply because you don't want to admit error. It's nothing more noble than face-saving.

You've had literally dozens of very smart people attempt to correct your errors, and you have behaved incredibly rudely toward them. These are people who volunteered their time and efforts on your behalf, and you won't give the satisfaction of admitting they've been right all along.

Quote:
I kept hoping that I could figure out a way to express my opinion so that a couple of road dogs here would see what I mean and, at least roughly, agree -- but, no such luck.
Yes, it's been painfully obvious that all you want is approval. You promised us a mathematical proof. But now we're back to where it started and where it should have stayed -- your opinion. As many have told you, believe whatever you want. But don't pretend you can prove your beliefs mathematically unless you know how to deliver the goods.

You don't.

Quote:
As you also might expect, I can't resist repeating the basic idea -- i.e., seems like there has to be an infinity of potential selves/"souls" (whatever they are).
There isn't. Probability just doesn't work that way. This is the third thread (by my count) that you've started trying to apply probability to mystical questions in an effort to prove them. The result in all three has been a clear demonstration that you don't understand probability. Own it, and move on with your life.

Quote:
And, any reasonably possible alternative explanation should outweigh chance and luck by a long shot.
No, this is just the same false dilemma every fringe claimant uses. You come up with some particular method and standard by which to dismiss the prevailing view and then hope your unevidenced, unsupported woo claim holds by default.

That's not how proof works, mathematical or otherwise. False dilemmas don't let you do that.
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Old 4th February 2017, 10:19 AM   #80
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So now, at the end of all things, Jabba still thinks he's the best man in this argument.

"End of all things." Harh! It is to laugh harshly! He'll be back.
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