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29th December 2011, 03:26 PM | #1 |
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Now a PM from Randi
I don't know who is responsible for this, but can I assume to speak for the majority of members by saying WE GET IT. Some of us might be thick, but stickies, banners and emails have got the "please donate" message through quite successfully. Now a PM? Know what the letter "P" stands for?
Now I may be the only member to be singled out by the great man, and if so, I apologize, but I somehow doubt it. |
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29th December 2011, 03:27 PM | #2 |
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I got two of them.
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29th December 2011, 03:28 PM | #3 |
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So did I.
But more to lionking's point, enough is enough but a PM is too much. |
29th December 2011, 03:28 PM | #4 |
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I got it, too. He asked me to double my donations, which I will gladly do as well.
Hmm, how much is 2xN, when N is... This thing Randi is doing a bit similarly as all those charlatans, beg for money from people poorer than himself, without much describing what it is being used for. His sizeable salary, that is. |
29th December 2011, 03:31 PM | #5 |
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I only got the one, which I filed away under "quid pro quo"; use Randi's forums, expect him to hit you up for the occasional donation.
If there's one thing I've learned about the Internet, it's that anything that can be used as a marketing vector, will be used as a marketing vector. If Randi ever contrives to make the signal to noise ratio unberable, I'll move on. |
29th December 2011, 03:37 PM | #6 |
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I didn't even notice I had a PM til I saw this thread. Looking on the bright side, I can tell my conjuror father that I had a personal message from Randi...
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29th December 2011, 03:40 PM | #7 |
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I just got a pm too, and I'm very annoyed.
I saw the email notification in my inbox, and took the time out of my busy day to check the message because I like to respond to private messages on forums as quickly as possible. It took all of my self control not to flame Randi when I saw that the pm was a begging letter. I'm sick of the spam on this forum. I've already opted out of the emails, but on this forum we're inundated with donation buttons, ads, and "notices" & "announcements" which turn out to be just more begging. I understand that nonprofits need to engage in fundraising, but if you annoy people with constant spamming they won't donate because they're mad at you. I'm off to update my bookmarks to go directly to the forum so that I can at least bypass the begging letters on the front page of the JREF website. |
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29th December 2011, 03:41 PM | #8 |
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Yes spam is the word.
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29th December 2011, 03:46 PM | #9 |
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29th December 2011, 03:50 PM | #10 |
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29th December 2011, 03:52 PM | #11 |
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I'm donating Spam. Well, the no name equivalent. Some food for thought.
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29th December 2011, 04:01 PM | #12 |
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I had just seen the e-mail, read through it and would have considered a donation if I could afford it right now. Unfortunately, I can't.
I got a PM with the identical text about a minute later. Really, one would have been enough. Two is annoying and I doubt that it's very effective, either. |
29th December 2011, 04:05 PM | #13 |
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The tone of both the PM and the multiple emails I've received is the wrong approach at least for me. Don't give me that Sally Struthers-esqe "won't you please help us fight the woos" routine. Focus on how the JREF specifically intends to use its resources in the new year, and what it's done in the past year.
There are lots of worthy causes out there, and I'm more concerned with the effectiveness of the various charities soliciting my money than I am with the abstract "worthiness" of their cause. (Because frankly, that's a comparison the JREF is likely to lose.) |
29th December 2011, 04:07 PM | #14 |
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Agree.
And I'm sorry but my precious few dollars I donate to charity are going to something far more important than some imagined noble fight against people who believe in ghosts/etc. Like the March of Dimes, American Cancer Society etc. This was a ridiculous request IMO. |
29th December 2011, 04:50 PM | #15 |
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I don't mind giving to "less important" causes, because less important causes may still be important, and we don't all have to give to the same things. So it's not like I think the JREF needs to close up shop simply because it's not fighting cancer. But yeah, they'd better come up with a better pitch than this appeal to emotion.
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29th December 2011, 04:58 PM | #16 |
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29th December 2011, 04:59 PM | #17 |
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I'm glad I'm not the only one annoyed by this. I joined this forum to have discussions with other rational people, not to be spammed with demands for money.
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29th December 2011, 05:01 PM | #18 |
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29th December 2011, 05:06 PM | #19 |
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29th December 2011, 05:12 PM | #20 |
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I tried to PM Randi back, however he does not accept PMs. My message to him was
Quote:
If Randi does not follow the rules like rule 6 (. You will not spam, flood or otherwise post in a manner that disrupts the functioning of the Forum...) it sort of undermines the mods and the forum. Might report the OP. Just in case Darat is not a toothless tiger in this case. |
29th December 2011, 05:14 PM | #21 |
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This is the JREF's forum you know. The money he's begging for pays for this free service we are all benefiting from. I don't think this counts as spam. (Although I was annoyed by it too.)
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29th December 2011, 05:24 PM | #22 |
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I disagree. Look at the big picture
1. Several e-mails sent out. 2. If he wanted money in exchange for the use of this forum he should say so and not what he did say. 3. If anyone else had done it (like me) I am sure the admins would have said something. 4. There are other methods of raising money from us. 5. How much money did these PMs raise? 6. If it was not Randi who sent out the PMs then please look at rule 7 "You may only have one Membership account. Only the person registering an account may use it." |
29th December 2011, 05:45 PM | #23 |
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29th December 2011, 05:49 PM | #24 |
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I can't say I was even annoyed by it. I rolled my eyes a little (because I got it twice), but it didn't really affect me at all otherwise. I'd love to donate, but am currently out of work, so I can't. When I can, I will. It'd be nice if I could reply to say such, and get nothing more until that time, but it's a couple of seconds of my time otherwise.
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29th December 2011, 05:56 PM | #25 |
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29th December 2011, 05:56 PM | #26 |
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That was not what these messages were mostly about,though.
Quote:
Also, I do very much hope this message was indeed by Randi. Again, no argument about breaches of the MA, but I'd feel betrayed (cheated; manipulated; something to that effect) if others simply used Randi's name in order to get me to donate money. (I don't care if he composed it, or pressed the send-button. But if he did not read and approve the final version of the text that would be a very bad thing.) |
29th December 2011, 06:03 PM | #27 |
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For me, it's not a 'spamming' thing. As Lisa notes, this is the JREF's forum; they have every right to use the forum to make announcements and news related to the JREF, including asking for donations.
What bothers me is that it is redundant, annoying, and pointless. Every member here has already seen the big, dominant banner at the top of the page asking us to donate. Most of us have received emails (I've gotten at least 6 in the last half year) asking us to donate. There are periodic announcements in the forums asking us to donate. We get it. You want us to donate. Thing is, we are already fully aware of this issue, and if we were going to donate, we would have done so already. Pestering us with another message, this time in the form of a PM, isn't going to have any positive effect; quite the opposite, it's going to have exactly the effect we see here, with people feeling pissed off and upset...thereby decreasing the likelihood of our support for the JREF's work. You want to send me a PM? No problem. Send me a PM that says, "This month, this is what the JREF did", and then give me an update about what you're actually doing (yeah, we can read it on SWIFT...but I suspect a lot of people don't read it, besides which, repeated repetition of an already clear message doesn't really seem to be an issue with JREF's current leadership). At the end of the PM, make a brief appeal for funds to help you continue your work. A PM that is giving me information about what the JREF is doing would not go amiss, in my book. It'd be nice to have that kind of communication. But "We're going to keep hammering you from every direction possible" -- emails, banner ads, forum announcements, and now PMs -- that is a very poorly conceived strategy. This, of course, ignores the issue (raised by others) that much of this constant bombardment of fundraising appeals is being sent to people who aren't in the U.S., who don't live in an area where the JREF is active, and who have other local/regional charities that will benefit much more practically from our involvement (I'm in China, and running my own NGO here, among other things). Please -- D.J., Randi, or whoever else is responsible for this -- show some class and dignity. This smacks of desperation and cheap tactics. I love the JREF's work. But this stuff just hurts your efforts and reputation. |
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29th December 2011, 06:12 PM | #28 |
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29th December 2011, 06:39 PM | #29 |
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If someone asked me if participating in this forum is worth fifty bucks a year, well... damn right it is.
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29th December 2011, 06:42 PM | #30 |
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29th December 2011, 06:59 PM | #31 |
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29th December 2011, 07:01 PM | #32 |
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I did donate - but that's just over a year ago now, I think. But I do believe that the JREF is worthy of donations as such. That's not my issue here at all,
I am not sure if the forum really provides 50$ worth of value compared to countless other free communities. As pointed out above, the JREF has hired staff and everything. Only a small fraction of our donations would go to the forum, really. (Oh, I like the community, but the measurable services are fairly ordinary, really. And the community wouldn't really get any of my donated money, either.) |
29th December 2011, 07:10 PM | #33 |
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I got 2.
Meh, they're easy to delete. I suspect when you are begging for donations that some people get around to it after being reminded multiple times. This year all my charity went to promoting independent investigative reporting. |
29th December 2011, 07:14 PM | #34 |
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And not to derail the OP too much...but the JREF also has decreased the time and effort it puts into this forum. In the past, we had Jeff Wagg as an official JREF staff member who was specifically responsible to oversee the forum, and respond to forum issues. With Jeff's departure, the JREF essentially distanced itself from any such role, and now has a more hands-off attitude towards the forum (beyond using it as a fund-raising tool).
Yes, they put money into maintaining this forum...but considering that the entire mod and admin team are volunteers, the amount of money that the JREF spends on this forum is quite small, doubtful to exceed more than a few hundred dollars a year. I'm not seeking to start a hate-fest, I like a lot of the work that the JREF does. I was sorry (and disappointed) at their decision to invest fewer resources in this forum, but that's their decision. But the 'cost' of running this forum isn't really much of an argument for either side of the question of their fund-raising methods. |
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29th December 2011, 07:14 PM | #35 |
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Even aside from the anti-woo aspects of the forum, you can find threads here on pretty much any subject under the sun. You can get answers to pretty much any question you can think of from experts in a myriad of disciplines. Want to know about Etruscan architecture, or Han dynasty pottery, or late Paleozoic life forms? Start a thread; your answer will be forthcoming.
Maybe there are other communities with such a depth and breadth of scholarship, but I bet they're not as much fun as this one. This place has probably added five points to my IQ and made me a much better critical thinker. It's well worth the occasional begging e-mail, and well worth the occasional Benjamin. YMMV. |
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29th December 2011, 07:20 PM | #36 |
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A quick addition to my first post, about the PMs:
If I were to get periodic PMs from James Randi or DJ Grothe on other issues (what's happening at JREF, an expression of gratitude for our participation in the forums, etc.); If either of them were to pop into threads occasionally to express their own thoughts, and contribute to conversations; If they were to feel the forums were important enough to designate a JREF staff member to oversee the forums...then I probably wouldn't mind the occasional PM also asking me to donate. But when they do none of the above, and the only time they send me a PM or get involved in the forum is to ask for money...then to me it seems rather mercenary, and it's gonna' generate some negative responses. It just seems to me that there are a lot more productive, positive, and effective ways they could be using to communicate with and engage with us, if they want us giving them our money. |
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29th December 2011, 07:22 PM | #37 |
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On the necessity of fundraising at the JREF
Thanks to everyone for the comments on our end-year fundraising campaign. As fact-based skeptics, a bit of information may be helpful in avoiding some incorrect conclusions about JREF's tax-deductible fundraising efforts:
1. JREF sends fewer donation appeals than other successful nonprofits. JREF adheres to best-practices in the field of nonprofit messaging. The social science of donor appeals shows that even willing donors generally need a few reminders in order to make the donation. This is counterintuitive, because we all assume that if you care, you will give. But the data shows otherwise -- repetition works. 2. All nonprofits do heavy donation appeals at the end of the year, and in the the nonprofit world, about 35% of all donations to a given nonprofit come in at year's end. If you are involved with other successful nonprofits, you know this because you will have received a number of appeals from them during this time period. 3. The JREF had for many years ran substantial deficits (some years surpassing hundreds of thousands of dollars in a given year) and when I came aboard as president, we reorganized in order to eliminate those deficits, even while expanding programs. Part of the reorganization included the need to raise money from new donors. In 2010, I am happy to say that we had a 42% increase in donations and memberships over 2009 and this year so far we have had around a 25% increase over 2010's donations and memberships, and a 39% increase in the number of donations and memberships this year over last year, which is a positive trend. The increase in support has allowed us to accomplish more to advance skepticism than ever before. 4. The JREF currently has only 655 paid members. The JREF forum currently has 28,877 members, of which, I'd guess a couple thousand are "active." I would bet that many of these active forum members don't know that the JREF does anything other than host a discussion forum. Relatively few of the members of the forum contribute to the organization, even though there are a couple forum members who are substantial donors in support of the organization's important mission, for which we are very grateful. Even so, I suspect that the donations from these forum members each year do not cover the direct costs to the JREF of maintaining the forum, which can be around $1,000 per month (we have worked to reduce these costs over the last couple years). We provide the forum as a free service in support of the online skeptics community and to provide an online storehouse of skeptical knowledge and discussion on topics of our concern. JREF is obviously not doing it because it benefits JREF financially. 5. When our development staff suggested sending Randi's letter as a PM to members of the forum, I approved the decision. I believe the message was sent twice to a small number of people by mistake. 6. Regarding people abroad receiving appeals -- I am happy to say that JREF receives donations to support its important work from all around the world, but if anyone would like not to receive such appeals, they can click the unsubscribe link at the bottom of every email to opt out of either the fundraising emails or all emails including our monthly newsletter. 7. Everyone at the JREF cares deeply about this mission, and we recognize that in order to survive as a little nonprofit, we must raise money from those who care as deeply about our mission as we do. We have detailed specifically what your donations will support in previous messages: http://www.randi.org/site/index.php/...37-static/1471 . Raising money is frankly somewhat new for the JREF, and I personally believe it is somewhat of an automatic uphill battle since skeptics may be predisposed against fundraising to start with. 8. Regarding Rand's salary: executive salaries at the JREF have been covered by one single donor. This means that all donations during campaigns like the Season of Reason go to programs and operations and not to executive salaries. Additionally, for those interested, it should be noted that 100% of Randi's speaking fees and honoraria go to the foundation. 9. I am currently in bed with the flu and slightly drunk on Nyquil and so ask you to excuse my long response. It reminds me of Churchill's apology for the long letter he sent someone: he didn't have the time to make it shorter. D.J. |
29th December 2011, 07:23 PM | #38 |
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After being deluged with begging on the main randi.org page, the repeated video postings on Youtube, and constant banner ads, I got 2 (count 'em, 2) emails telling me I had a PM that was exactly the same thing.
This is spam, pure and simple. And way over the top. It's not the way to treat your admirers or benefactors. |
29th December 2011, 07:25 PM | #39 |
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I actually feel better, I thought I was being singled out because I didn't ever donate. I really wish I could afford to. I thought the donation was tax deductible but it seems like maybe it's not.
If it IS tax deductible it does make sense that he would send it now so that people can claim it when they do their taxes next year. If it isn't tax deductible I think it's not very smart to send it out at this time of year. Even though I'm an atheist I like to celebrate the holiday season, I've been invited to a few parties to which I've brought wine and other such things. So I'm really broke this time of year. A better time would be tax return season. |
29th December 2011, 07:41 PM | #40 |
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DJ, thanks for the detailed (if drug-induced) response; a few quick responses:
That's great...but as mentioned above, it'd come across much better if almost the entire extent of yours or Randi's involvement in this forum wasn't fund-raising appeals. Other than the occasional comment on a JREF issue, or asking us for money, I don't really see you guys involved at all. This communicates a message -- even if not intended -- that "we're only interested in you as a source of money". Please see above where I suggested practical, positive ways that you could be communicating with us more actively, so that a fund-raising appeal would be just one of many interactions between us and the JREF; not the only interaction we have with you.
Quote:
As mentioned above, I'm in China, and I run my own NGO. I'm not going to donate to any U.S.-based organization, for the simple reason that I'm not in the U.S., and you don't really do much here in China. So repeated messages asking me over and over for money...its not that terribly welcome, and honestly seems a little lazy on the JREF's part. Just use a shotgun approach, no strategy or targeting of the appeals at all.
Quote:
Quote:
And I'm sorry, DJ...but who's fault is that? Where are the JREF staff who regularly interact with and are involved with the forum members? A generic PM sent to all the members is going to accomplish far, far less than having someone from the JREF who regularly interacts with the forum membership, and keeps them aware of what the JREF is doing. Jeff Wagg used to do this job (and did it very well), but since his departure, the JREF has essentially dropped the ball on this. A once-a-year generic PM, or mass emails sent to everyone who's ever given you an email address, are not doing anything to engage members, or attract them to the JREF's work. 5. When our development staff suggested sending Randi's letter as a PM to members of the forum, I approved the decision. I believe the message was sent twice to a small number of people by mistake.
Quote:
Quote:
Fund-raising is, in large part, about building relationships with your donors. Interacting with them, dialoguing with them, etc. Here in the forums, you guys have a great chance to do just that...and you don't.
Quote:
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