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Old 29th December 2011, 07:50 PM   #41
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Wolfman has a point regarding JREF participation. Since Jeff left, I hardly even associate the forums with the actual Foundation, despite it sharing a name and being funded by the parent organization.

And I have no idea what JREF has been doing with it's money. I know it's all out in the open if I care to look, but when being asked for money I like to be told what it might be used for. As an example, I get emails from several elephant "assistance" organizations and they send emails detailing various good deeds and general info that have occured. They do not appeal to emotion.

THink about that. A group dedicated to protecting one particular animal doesn't appeal to emotion. Are there many good reasons for an American like me to actually give a damn about asian eles other than emotion? Probably not, but they get me to send some money by clearly pointing out the good work they do.
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Old 29th December 2011, 07:50 PM   #42
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Originally Posted by Dunstan View Post
The tone of both the PM and the multiple emails I've received is the wrong approach at least for me. Don't give me that Sally Struthers-esqe "won't you please help us fight the woos" routine. Focus on how the JREF specifically intends to use its resources in the new year, and what it's done in the past year.
Bolding mine.

This is a very good point.

A skeptical (and educational) organization should have details in its solicitations about what it plans to do in the future (and perhaps what it has done in the past) with our money

It would be a good contrast to all of the other organizations that don't let you know where the money is going at all.
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Old 29th December 2011, 07:50 PM   #43
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Wolfman, frankly, JREF staff as busy nonprofit professionals have very little time to spend on the forum. We are grateful that longtime volunteers moderate the forum. I do know that in years past some JREF paid staffers spent much of their time on forum matters, adjudicating controversies, moderating discussions, etc., but such involvement is pretty atypical in the nonprofit world -- and again, it is not something we have the staff hours to devote to, considering that we all already work well over 40 hours per week doing our full-time jobs. I hope you understand and that those who are interested in supporting the JREF do end up supporting it, and that those who aren't will register their complaints and then be able to put things in the sort of perspective I attempted to in my earlier response.

Now I'm back to my green haze. I'm sorry I won't be able to continue a back-and forth debating these issues with you.
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Old 29th December 2011, 07:50 PM   #44
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You’re asking the Liberals here to donate their own money????

Good luck!

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Old 29th December 2011, 07:53 PM   #45
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OnlyTellTheTruth: Good point. This is precisely why in our appeals and at the banners at the top of the forum you are taken to just such a listing: http://www.randi.org/site/index.php/...37-static/1471.

Cheers..
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Old 29th December 2011, 07:57 PM   #46
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Originally Posted by DJGrothe View Post
I do know that in years past some JREF paid staffers spent much of their time on forum matters, adjudicating controversies, moderating discussions, etc., but such involvement is pretty atypical in the nonprofit world -- and again, it is not something we have the staff hours to devote to, considering that we all already work well over 40 hours per week doing our full-time jobs.
Yes, heaven forbid you actually show INTEREST in a forum you run. The nerve of it all!
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Old 29th December 2011, 08:00 PM   #47
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Originally Posted by DJGrothe View Post
8. Regarding Rand's salary: executive salaries at the JREF have been covered by one single donor. This means that all donations during campaigns like the Season of Reason go to programs and operations and not to executive salaries. Additionally, for those interested, it should be noted that 100% of Randi's speaking fees and honoraria go to the foundation..

SO, your salaries total 543662, and contributions/grants total 368445. Now, you did say executive salaries (290,000) but I do want to just mention right now that's rather deceptive wording.

From the 990 form, lectures and presentations did gross you 569,245$ USD and cost you 817,458$ USD.

Also, I do find it interesting you've moved from savings to traded securities, but that's just me~!
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Old 29th December 2011, 08:00 PM   #48
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Originally Posted by jhunter1163 View Post
Even aside from the anti-woo aspects of the forum, you can find threads here on pretty much any subject under the sun. You can get answers to pretty much any question you can think of from experts in a myriad of disciplines. Want to know about Etruscan architecture, or Han dynasty pottery, or late Paleozoic life forms? Start a thread; your answer will be forthcoming.
Yeah, after a few "let me google that for you" links and a handfull of smart-aleck comments.

Originally Posted by DJGrothe View Post
OnlyTellTheTruth: Good point. This is precisely why in our appeals and at the banners at the top of the forum you are taken to just such a listing: http://www.randi.org/site/index.php/...37-static/1471.

Cheers..
OK, sure, but the actual plea should contain that info; we want details, not heart tugging.

Also, I think Wolfman already addressed that in post #27.



...and HI DJ!! Good to see you on, and that you are reading about this issue.
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Old 29th December 2011, 08:01 PM   #49
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Originally Posted by DJGrothe View Post
JREF adheres to best-practices in the field of nonprofit messaging.
Somehow, Mr. Grothe, I don't think you have your finger on the pulse of your target audience.

Quote:
We provide the forum as a free service in support of the online skeptics community and to provide an online storehouse of skeptical knowledge and discussion on topics of our concern. JREF is obviously not doing it because it benefits JREF financially.
Right. So, you don't expect the PM begging for money, the one that you just sent to everyone on the forum, to benefit the JREF financially? I see. Gee, you guys are swell.

Quote:
5. When our development staff suggested sending Randi's letter as a PM to members of the forum, I approved the decision. I believe the message was sent twice to a small number of people by mistake.
I got two. I wonder how many folks only got one. Anybody?

Quote:
Raising money is frankly somewhat new for the JREF, and I personally believe it is somewhat of an automatic uphill battle since skeptics may be predisposed against fundraising to start with.
I understand the need to raise funds. I just don't like being treated like a mark.

Quote:
9. I am currently in bed with the flu and slightly drunk on Nyquil and so ask you to excuse my long response. D.J.
Get well soon.
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Old 29th December 2011, 08:05 PM   #50
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I only got one.
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Old 29th December 2011, 08:07 PM   #51
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I didn't get a PM, I feel left out.
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Old 29th December 2011, 08:08 PM   #52
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Oh no! A PM?! The nerve! And a banner ad on the top of the page of the forum I use for free and that gives me hours of entertainment and interaction with like-minded people!

Stop this fund-raising insanity! How will Celtic Rose ever get that precious time back? Lionking had to spend almost a minute this year alone deleting 3 or 4 emails!

What a bunch of whiny, selfish brats.
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Old 29th December 2011, 08:09 PM   #53
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Originally Posted by kajata View Post
Oh no! A PM?! The nerve! And a banner ad on the top of the page of the forum I use for free and that gives me hours of entertainment and interaction with like-minded people!

Stop this fund-raising insanity! How will Celtic Rose ever get that precious time back? Lionking had to spend almost a minute this year alone deleting 3 or 4 emails!

What a bunch of whiny, selfish brats.
.... There's this thing about repeatedly asking. Or you could just be a snarky person who insults the other side. That works too.
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Old 29th December 2011, 08:10 PM   #54
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Originally Posted by DJGrothe View Post
<with snips. Thanks to everyone for the comments on our end-year fundraising campaign. As fact-based skeptics, a bit of information may be helpful in avoiding some incorrect conclusions about JREF's tax-deductible fundraising efforts:

4. The JREF currently has only 655 paid members.
Thanks for the info. OK, you talked me into it :-) The forum is worth it.

Can't afford to join though, shame as the pigasus looks cute.
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Old 29th December 2011, 08:11 PM   #55
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This motivated me to finally donate to PBS.

Randi makes at least 200 grand a year from the foundation. If he trimmed his salary...
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Old 29th December 2011, 08:12 PM   #56
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Originally Posted by kajata View Post
How will Celtic Rose ever get that precious time back?
I think I'll start by putting you on ignore and not spending any more time reading your posts.
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Old 29th December 2011, 08:12 PM   #57
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Old 29th December 2011, 08:17 PM   #58
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Originally Posted by SphereGuy View Post
I didn't get a PM, I feel left out.
I got two. I'll send you one!
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Old 29th December 2011, 08:19 PM   #59
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Originally Posted by kajata View Post
Oh no! A PM?! The nerve! And a banner ad on the top of the page of the forum I use for free and that gives me hours of entertainment and interaction with like-minded people!

Stop this fund-raising insanity! How will Celtic Rose ever get that precious time back? Lionking had to spend almost a minute this year alone deleting 3 or 4 emails!

What a bunch of whiny, selfish brats.
If I knocked on your door every day seeking donations, would you be annoyed? After all it only takes seconds to slam the door in my face.
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Old 29th December 2011, 08:28 PM   #60
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Originally Posted by lionking View Post
If I knocked on your door every day seeking donations, would you be annoyed? After all it only takes seconds to slam the door in my face.
You make a good point. I'm going to fire off a letter to JREF insisting they stop emailing/PMing me every day seeking donations.
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Old 29th December 2011, 08:30 PM   #61
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Originally Posted by DJGrothe View Post
Wolfman, frankly, JREF staff as busy nonprofit professionals have very little time to spend on the forum. We are grateful that longtime volunteers moderate the forum. I do know that in years past some JREF paid staffers spent much of their time on forum matters, adjudicating controversies, moderating discussions, etc., but such involvement is pretty atypical in the nonprofit world -- and again, it is not something we have the staff hours to devote to, considering that we all already work well over 40 hours per week doing our full-time jobs. I hope you understand and that those who are interested in supporting the JREF do end up supporting it, and that those who aren't will register their complaints and then be able to put things in the sort of perspective I attempted to in my earlier response.

Now I'm back to my green haze. I'm sorry I won't be able to continue a back-and forth debating these issues with you.
DJ,

Appreciate that you don't want a debate...but please consider the message you seem to (inadvertently, I'm sure) be communicating here. Essentially, the thousands of JREF members are important to you as a fund-raising source...but that in return for our donations, you don't have the time or intend to make the effort to interact with us.

I'm not seeking to be a nay-sayer. I respect and support the work that the JREF does. I'm seeking to offer constructive advice on how you guys could do better.

First, you seem to treat participation in these forums as some sort of zero-sum issue...that its an expenditure of time and energy that isn't justified. But tons of research on fund-raising has more than amply demonstrated that having more direct interaction with donors, and building relationships with them, leads to far more donations than does simply sending out emails asking for money. Its an approach I've tried to take with my own NGO, and it has yielded (modest) benefits.

If I got a PM from you or Randi each month, telling me the latest news from the JREF, what you've been doing, and what you're planning to do...along with a short message at the bottom mentioning that donations will help further your cause...not only would I not object to that, I'd appreciate it as a personal touch that many other NGOs don't have; and I'm sure that many members here would not only know more about what the JREF does (and its connection to these forums), but they'd be willing to donate more money. It's something that would take maybe 20 minutes each month to do...but would be received far, far more positively than some generic fund-raising message that's sent without any other interaction or communication from your organization.

It honestly rather mystifies me that you first comment on how few members are likely aware of the link between the JREF and these forums; identify those members as important potential donors; but then dismiss efforts to use these forums actively for more than pleas for money to not be worthwhile. Doesn't it seem more likely that if the only thing those members ever hear from you is "Please give us money", its gonna' be a turn-off?

Communication and relationship-building are very important tools in the fund-raiser's efforts. These forums could be a valuable tool for you guys in that regard, were you to use it that way. A specific forum for "DJ's Thoughts", where once a month you make a post on a particular issue, then other members can respond with their thoughts and ideas; you wouldn't have to respond to everything they said, it might take a maximum of 1-2 hours time each month...but it would give people a more personal point of contact with you, a feeling that they're communicating with the JREF's leadership, and that you're interacting with them. Or, as I mentioned previously, a monthly PM sent to all members (more than a cut-and-paste from SWIFT), informing them of what you've been doing this month, with a quick request for donations at the end of it.

Such things would, it seems to me, lead to A) greater forum awareness of the JREF and what it does, and B) lead to more donations to the JREF. All of which would more than justify the few hours each month that would be required for such an effort.

I apologize if I seem overly critical, or making a mountain out of a molehill; I happen to think the JREF's work is worthwhile, and I'd simply like to see you using more effective methods to accomplish your goals.
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Old 29th December 2011, 08:33 PM   #62
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Originally Posted by DJGrothe View Post
Wolfman, frankly, JREF staff as busy nonprofit professionals have very little time to spend on the forum. We are grateful that longtime volunteers moderate the forum. I do know that in years past some JREF paid staffers spent much of their time on forum matters, adjudicating controversies, moderating discussions, etc., but such involvement is pretty atypical in the nonprofit world -- and again, it is not something we have the staff hours to devote to, considering that we all already work well over 40 hours per week doing our full-time jobs. I hope you understand and that those who are interested in supporting the JREF do end up supporting it, and that those who aren't will register their complaints and then be able to put things in the sort of perspective I attempted to in my earlier response.
There's plenty of ways for the JREF to be involved in its own forum that don't involve having paid staffers do moderating. In fact, I'd say the Jeff Wagg role is far from ideal (not a criticism of Jeff himself).

Here's one example off the top of my head. I just looked at the most recent page of the SWIFT blog, and although there's a comments functionality, the posts there have a total of 3, 3, 14, 1, and 4 comments respectively, which is not exactly a lively discussion. Why shouldn't the comments link refer to this forum? Incidentally, the answer can't be "because we don't want people to have to register just to comment on a SWIFT post" -- you apparently do have to register for comments, and it's a SEPARATE registration from the Forum, as my login info doesn't work there. Why wouldn't you want to introduce folks who read SWIFT to the Forum, and remind Forumites of the new writers on SWIFT?

In your earlier post, you wrote "I would bet that many of these active forum members don't know that the JREF does anything other than host a discussion forum."

As Wolfman said, whose fault is that? And more to the point, do you think they know now? That PM wasn't very informative on that point.

Yes, yes, I know: there's a link on randi.org somewhere. Well, that's nice and proactive of you. Strange that you know from research that people have to be asked to donate multiple times, but you seem to expect that those same people will diligently search out the information that might lead them to do so.

I'm sure a year from now you'll still be complaining that many of the 28,000+ members of the Forum don't seem to know what the JREF does. If only you had some way of communicating with them....
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Old 29th December 2011, 08:41 PM   #63
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Originally Posted by JJM 777 View Post
I got it, too. He asked me to double my donations, which I will gladly do as well.

Hmm, how much is 2xN, when N is...

This thing Randi is doing a bit similarly as all those charlatans, beg for money from people poorer than himself, without much describing what it is being used for. His sizeable salary, that is.
Evidence for these assertions, please.
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Old 29th December 2011, 08:41 PM   #64
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Here's the point. I have donated twice this year to causes raised by forum members. I knew these members, knew why these causes were important to them and their communities, knew exactly where the money was going and knew how personally grateful the members were. They didn't keep on asking for donations. I interact with them still.

I believe this more personal, subtle appeal would be more successful than the industrial strength, state of the art appeal we see here.
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Old 29th December 2011, 08:43 PM   #65
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Originally Posted by thaiboxerken View Post
Evidence for these assertions, please.
Randi's salary is available on JREF's filed Form 990's. It is 195k. (And no, this is not typical for JREF's profit range.)
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Old 29th December 2011, 08:46 PM   #66
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Originally Posted by KoihimeNakamura View Post
Randi's salary is available on JREF's filed Form 990's. It is 195k. (And no, this is not typical for JREF's profit range.)
Seems to me that the assertion that these donations go to Randi's salary has already been refuted. "Paid for by a single donor."
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Old 29th December 2011, 08:47 PM   #67
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Did you read my post upstream? You know, where I noted that's possible but that's a significant chunk of the total donations? No? I don't post here just to amuse myself, you know.
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Old 29th December 2011, 08:48 PM   #68
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Originally Posted by DJGrothe View Post
<snip>

4. The JREF currently has only 655 paid members. The JREF forum currently has 28,877 members, of which, I'd guess a couple thousand are "active." <snip>
D.J.
As of this post the number of Active Members = 2,679. It was close to 3,000 not long ago. The definition of an active member is someone who has made at least one post in the last month. To find out how many active members there are check the index page - http://www.internationalskeptics.com...orumindex.php? At the bottom there are some stats.
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Old 29th December 2011, 08:54 PM   #69
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Wolfman, if you subscribe to the JREF email list, you get the equivalent of a PM every month in the form of an email newsletter which updates you on JREF activities. If we sent the same update as a PM to all forum members, I predict we would get spamming complaints.

The forum is important for the reasons I stated, but paid staff involvement with the forum is really a matter of limited staff resources. I can imagine that for people who invest a lot of their personal time in this online community, this seems sort of backward, since they spend so much time on it, and they believe the nonprofit professionals at the JREF ought to, as well. But after reorganizing, we have decided that we advance our mission more effectively by focusing on communications and media relations, creating educational modules and digital publishing, doing web videos and podcasts, putting on local events and speaking tours, conducting the MDC, etc etc than we would by spending large amounts of time in discussions on skeptical and other topics with those of like mind on online discussion forums, as some JREF staffers had done in the past. I'll also note that what little promotion of the JREF's activities we have done on the forum so far has often been met with criticism and sometimes impressive hostility, since forumites "don't come here to see ads for the JREF." Such is maybe just the nature of skeptics, or of this forum in particular. Even so, we have promoted the forum more heavily recently than in years past, including in our new printed brochures, on our tabling banners and with sponsor table space at TAM, and in the TAM printed program.

Fundraising is relationship building. The PM from Randi is an invitation to begin building a relationship with the JREF to forumites who may not now know much about it -- to get to know us better, and to help us with our important work if they are able. I believe JREF staff have gotten to know the forum rather well, its culture and personality. And I am happy to say that we have developed relationships with more people who care about the mission of the JREF recently than in many years prior. If you care about the mission and activities of the JREF, I invite you to get more involved, in addition to discussing things on the forum.

I accept your apology, and have assumed all along your complaints were made in the spirit of helpfulness, and that any seeming negativity is just par for the course. I would suspect that only at a skeptics nonprofit would there be a complaint thread about getting a fundraising appeal by the nonprofit that hosts the discussion forum. Again, we assume it is just sort of par for the course.

Last edited by JREF Staff; 29th December 2011 at 09:06 PM. Reason: typo
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Old 29th December 2011, 08:55 PM   #70
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Originally Posted by CelticRose View Post
I think I'll start by putting you on ignore and not spending any more time reading your posts.
An absolutely beautiful riposte. Bravo!
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Old 29th December 2011, 08:59 PM   #71
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Originally Posted by Wolfman View Post
...and if getting drunk on Nyquil is what would get you (or other JREF staff) to be more involved here, then I'd be happy to make a donation to pay for a crate of Nyquil to be donated to the JREF
Oh, I hadn't realised it was a whip round for drug money. Hang on, I'll get my chequebook...

(A study by the Open University revealed that the british public gave less to a beggar with a sign saying "I need money" or "Alcoholic, please help" than they did to one saying "Heroin addict, please help" (possibly they thought the latter more likely to rob them, or someone else, if they didn't get enough donations). I don't suppose that's of much value to JREF's fundraising strategy...)
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Old 29th December 2011, 09:04 PM   #72
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Originally Posted by kajata View Post
Oh no! A PM?! The nerve! And a banner ad on the top of the page of the forum I use for free and that gives me hours of entertainment and interaction with like-minded people!

Stop this fund-raising insanity! How will Celtic Rose ever get that precious time back? Lionking had to spend almost a minute this year alone deleting 3 or 4 emails!

What a bunch of whiny, selfish brats.
Sorry but I have to agree with this post. We come and indulge on the message board and it's probably a nice part of a lot of people's lives. So what that people got asked for money a bunch of times.

For crying out loud people, grow up. Its the same crap in the Forum Management thread on regular basis. If you hate it so much leave.
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Old 29th December 2011, 09:06 PM   #73
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Originally Posted by truethat View Post
Sorry but I have to agree with this post. We come and indulge on the message board and it's probably a nice part of a lot of people's lives. So what that people got asked for money a bunch of times.

For crying out loud people, grow up. Its the same crap in the Forum Management thread on regular basis. If you hate it so much leave.
I'll point you to lionking's response.
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Old 29th December 2011, 09:12 PM   #74
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Originally Posted by DJGrothe View Post
The forum is important for the reasons I stated, but paid staff involvement with the forum is really a matter of limited staff resources. I can imagine that for people who invest a lot of their personal time in this online community, this seems sort of backward, since they spend so much time on it, and they believe the nonprofit professionals at the JREF ought to, as well. But after reorganizing, we have decided that we advance our mission more effectively by focusing on communications and media relations, creating educational modules and digital publishing, doing web videos and podcasts, putting on local events and speaking tours, conducting the MDC, etc etc than we would by spending large amounts of time in discussions on skeptical and other topics with those of like mind on online discussion forums, as some JREF staffers had done in the past.
Wasn't that in Jeff Wagg's job description?
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Old 29th December 2011, 09:13 PM   #75
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I see this kind of thing on here all the time. How pathetic is it to complain that we don't have a forum messenger to come to the forum to update the posters about what's going on in JREF.

AYFKM? Most of the people on this site don't donate, we don't involve ourselves on what goes on with the foundation as a Non Profit, yet we expect to be "Kept in the loop" because we're too lazy to go see what's going on???

There's a main page and newsletter, but we still want to be coddled as if we are somehow important to the JREF foundation when we don't support it, we don't care about it and we are not up to date on what it is doing.

Sorry but who the he double hockey sticks do you all think you are. You are participants on a message board that you get to use for free, you act as if you are share holders or something.

Seriously man. Pathetic.
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Old 29th December 2011, 09:18 PM   #76
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Originally Posted by KoihimeNakamura View Post
Cain: Only 195k.
My bad!

In another post you mention his salary's atypical given the size of foundation. What's a more conventional compensation?
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Old 29th December 2011, 09:20 PM   #77
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Cain: For Randi, I.. don't know. I was using the CEO compensation because the report I was using has no real good comparisons. For the 500k-1 million bracket, the highest paid percentile was 120k, average somewhere in the 60-70k range if I recall.

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Old 29th December 2011, 10:04 PM   #78
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You must remember that Randi generates more income than his salary by his speaking and other engagements.
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Old 29th December 2011, 10:11 PM   #79
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Originally Posted by truethat View Post
For crying out loud people, grow up. Its the same crap in the Forum Management thread on regular basis. If you hate it so much leave.
For crying out loud person, grow up. People are just expressing their opinions and several are making constructive suggestions. If you hate it so much, leave (the thread).
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Old 29th December 2011, 10:20 PM   #80
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Originally Posted by truethat View Post
Sorry but who the he double hockey sticks do you all think you are. You are participants on a message board that you get to use for free, you act as if you are share holders or something.

Seriously man. Pathetic.
I think I am a forumite who's contributed to the JREF in the past, and may contribute again, someday, who knows? I've been here for the better part of ten years (don't let my post count fool you) and don't appreciate finding the slick product of "the best-practices in the field of nonprofit messaging", geared toward separating me from my money (utilizing an old-fashioned appeal to emotion, no less), in my PM box.

So, I thought I'd say something! I still like the place, but damn!
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