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29th December 2011, 10:23 PM | #81 |
Creativity Murderer
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29th December 2011, 11:20 PM | #82 |
Fait Accompli
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Rain City
Posts: 2,181
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Wow! I am just now reading through this thread and I stopped to check and BAM, there it was. I think I am going to respond back tell them that Randi should write another book and donate the proceeds to his favorite cause.
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29th December 2011, 11:59 PM | #83 |
Suspended
Join Date: Jun 2004
Posts: 4,060
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I think the running costs of this forum -- the inevitable monetary payments plus work of moderators etc -- are predominantly covered by volunteerism, i.e. the mods giving their work for free. A typical top-down community, where the guy sitting on top earns hugely, while others get little or no compensation for what they do for the organization and for the cause.
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30th December 2011, 12:06 AM | #84 |
Banned
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Location: Ivory Tower
Posts: 20,632
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30th December 2011, 12:38 AM | #85 |
Summer worshipper
Join Date: Nov 2003
Posts: 17,175
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I got this idea: Maybe Randi should be paying the members of this forum ? Because frankly, I think that on the whole not only we do more for skepticism than JREF itself, but also make Randi and JREF famous. For example, I first came here by googling something and stumbling on a forum thread. Only after several months I started reading the newsletter and all, but after a while I stopped because there's nothing in the newsletter that isn't covered much more completely in the forum.
I think that without the forum the JREF would be much, much less well-known. And if Randi were to stop providing this "free service", then I'm pretty sure that love would find another way. I find it extremely unlikely that the forumites wouldn't find another forum to move into. If Randi's salary is indeed close to 200,000, then I think he should be giving about 50,000 from that at least to people who spend their free time moderating the forum. Because the forum is the most important part of the JREF. The forum drives the JREF and not the other way around. So, what about it, Randi ? Won't you fork out some money and help us fight the fakers ? |
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"Robbing a bank is no crime compared to owning one" - Bertolt Brecht |
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30th December 2011, 01:12 AM | #86 |
Featherless biped
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Aporia
Posts: 26,431
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The main spam culprit here is automod action. When I saw I had mail I automatically assumed I had been sent to the naughty corner once again.
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30th December 2011, 01:19 AM | #87 |
Straussian
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Los Angeles
Posts: 15,419
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Interesting idea, Greco, but I'm gonna have to disagree with giving moderators money. Moderators suck.
Instead that money should go to the people who make this forum worth reading. People like me. After all, I'm one of the elite few who got hit with a SECOND message from Randi (I don't expect a third because right now he's the only person on my Ignore List). As a result of reading the Wikipedia page on the JREF, I was reminded about the time they stopped sponsoring scholarships because funding was scarce (har, har, har). Since so many students are bogged down with debt, and because scholarships are often used to attract ambitious young minds (see for instance the essay contests sponsored by Scientologists and the Ayn Rand Institute), I think that would be a worthwhile alternative to my bank account. Maybe. What I think is hilarious is that there people reading this thread who would actually describe the comments about Randi "ungrateful." (He doesn't even make 200 grand a year, and I'm sure for the Amazing Meeting in Vegas he has to personally drive (on his own dime) from their offices in balmy Fort Lauderdale. Or maybe they pay for gas. Or if he does fly, I doubt they cover it. And he rides coach). |
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Cain: Don't be a homo. Diablo: What's that supposed to mean? Cain: It's a heteronormative remark meant to be taken at face-value. |
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30th December 2011, 01:25 AM | #88 |
Featherless biped
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Aporia
Posts: 26,431
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Hmmm interesting idea, Cain. A Paypal link next to the nominate button perhaps?
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30th December 2011, 02:41 AM | #89 |
Muse
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Denmark, yo
Posts: 629
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30th December 2011, 03:28 AM | #90 |
not a camel
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 85,731
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It's better than the spam I keep getting from Locknar.
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30th December 2011, 03:34 AM | #91 |
Post-normalist
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Palmy, NZ
Posts: 1,430
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Great posts by Wolf earlier on mirror most of my views. I've been involved in this forum in one way or another (albeit a much more avid reader than poster) for a while now. When I first arrived it felt, from my very outside perspective, like the JREF and the JREF forum were closely related entities (or even the same thing). JREF activities were actively and positively discussed on the forum and I used to feel quite a close affiliation to JREF via my participation and reading on the forum. However increasingly I feel like the JREF forum is where my affiliation lies, not the JREF itself. It seems to me that recent appeals (and DJ Grothe's responses here) are symptomatic of a growing distance between the two things. I'm not sure that's a positive direction to move in, for either half of the equation.
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30th December 2011, 03:42 AM | #92 |
Straussian
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Los Angeles
Posts: 15,419
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Cain: Don't be a homo. Diablo: What's that supposed to mean? Cain: It's a heteronormative remark meant to be taken at face-value. |
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30th December 2011, 04:57 AM | #93 |
I'm watching you
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 5,320
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Well, it seems pretty obvious the foundation doesn't care about the forum. Why should the forum care about the foundation?
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This is a sig file. Does anyone even read this stuff? |
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30th December 2011, 08:45 AM | #94 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Dec 2001
Posts: 53,084
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I'm very upset. Not only did these show up in my inbox, but I'm unable to figure out how to delete them! It would probably take about a half a second, but that is a lot of time in my busy schedule. In fact, I'm putting everything else in my life on hold, because nothing could possibly be more important than getting these messages out of my inbox.
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If I see somebody with a gun on a plane? I'll kill him. Lupus is Lupus tor central scrutineezer |
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30th December 2011, 09:03 AM | #95 |
Illuminator
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 4,300
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30th December 2011, 09:04 AM | #96 |
Illuminator
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Posts: 4,300
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30th December 2011, 09:06 AM | #97 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Dec 2001
Posts: 53,084
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If I see somebody with a gun on a plane? I'll kill him. Lupus is Lupus tor central scrutineezer |
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30th December 2011, 09:27 AM | #98 |
I'm watching you
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 5,320
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Nope, not good enough.
Yes, I'm serious. Apparently we exist out of some sense of inertia and a new thought that we can be used as a mailing list. Certainly not as a viable and wanted community of skeptics and freethinkers. That would take actual work and after all, the JREF president has a cold. Now, if they wanted to make this a pay-to-play forum, that would be different. I may or may not bite on that. Probably not though. There are plenty of free forums and blogs with comment sections with communities that have the owners active and caring. But I guess I should just shut up and pay. Why, how dare I have an opinion! Don't I know I should bow down and be an unthinking, unskeptical....oh, wait.... Wanna know what's funny? Just before I wrote this I got a message from Asian Elephant Support. No appeals to emotion. Just a thanks for your support, a listing of things they've done this year, and a reminder that it's still not too late to give. A couple pictures of cute elephants doesn't hurt, but I think Randi's kinda cute too. |
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This is a sig file. Does anyone even read this stuff? |
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30th December 2011, 09:35 AM | #99 |
Banned
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Location: Patriot Nation
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30th December 2011, 09:40 AM | #100 |
Banned
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 13,389
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Common sense says that if you have a data base of 27,000 people who have an interest in skepticism, you would be foolish not to reach out to them to ask for donations.
You get the emails and delete them. I don't get what the big deal is. LOL |
30th December 2011, 09:55 AM | #101 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 6,372
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No, you obviously don't.
Until you actually understand what other people are saying why not just refrain from dismissing their concerns out of hand? I assure you it is very easy for me to simply delete or ignore any messages from the JREF. And that will happen sooner or later if they end up being too annoying for me otherwise. The result, however, is that I'll never be donating again simply because I will be very effective in not ever seeing any of the reminders. I would assume that this is not what the JREF wants. Maybe I am wrong, though. |
30th December 2011, 10:00 AM | #102 |
Banned
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 13,389
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There are about what 10 people in this thread whining about it. I do understand that it's annoying and I get the deal that it does feel like hitting us up for money. But it's not that big of a deal. For those of you that it is, I can assure you that Randi has probably made a ton of money through donations because of this effort. I would have definitely donated if I had money in my paypal account at the time.
So I'm sorry the dozen or so of you are upset. If it was as bad as you say it is, I doubt they'd get any donations. I suppose what I find annoying is the way people can't seem to separate their personal feelings from it being a "bad thing." It was a smart business move. Period the end. Sorry you got so upset and won't donate. |
30th December 2011, 10:17 AM | #103 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Dec 2001
Posts: 53,084
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If I see somebody with a gun on a plane? I'll kill him. Lupus is Lupus tor central scrutineezer |
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30th December 2011, 10:33 AM | #104 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Feb 2011
Posts: 8,131
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I don't get it either. I read it, I said no, I moved on.
I don't understand how people can get so indignant about a free service with no member obligations (other than forum rules). Everyone asks for money. In my day-to-day life, this is by far one of the least obnoxious or intrusive organizations I've seen. |
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I have no idea what you're trying to say, but I'm still pretty sure that you're wrong. -Akhenaten I sometimes think the Bible was inspired by Satan to make God look bad. And then it backfired on Him when He underestimated the stupidity of religious ideologues. -MontagK505 |
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30th December 2011, 10:45 AM | #105 |
Master Poster
Join Date: Aug 2001
Posts: 2,605
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Wouldn't surprise me in the least--
Quote:
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30th December 2011, 10:46 AM | #106 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: May 2002
Posts: 11,466
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It does.
I think as a whole we are a group of people that are impossible to please. "My duties preclude me from chatting about skepticism" gets interpreted as "I don't care about you except as a revenue source". "I have a cold and am zonked out" becomes "you petty, insignificant creatures - leave me alone now and forever". ETA: With that said, I don't see the problem with passing on feedback. Anything that smacks of "best practices" gets automatically discarded by me. The wordy/chatty email, the ps with an extra offer, reads like the stuff I get in the mail every day and discard without a second thought. I won't argue whether that sort of letter brings in more donations than other formats - it is not my field. All I can say is that after the last round of emails I unsubscribed, not out of pique, but because I wouldn't be responding anyway, so why receive the emails? That's certainly worth knowing, even if it turns out the current method is the best for JREF. |
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May your trails be crooked, winding, lonesome, dangerous, leading to the most amazing view. May your mountains rise into and above the clouds. - Edward Abbey Climb the mountains and get their good tidings. Nature's peace will flow into you as sunshine flows into trees. The winds will blow their own freshness into you, and the storms their energy, while cares will drop off like autumn leaves. - John Muir |
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30th December 2011, 11:02 AM | #107 |
Summer worshipper
Join Date: Nov 2003
Posts: 17,175
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Just got a PM about buying 2 Viagra for $99.90 and getting a free penis stretcher with the JREF logo on it. Anyone else got it ?
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"Robbing a bank is no crime compared to owning one" - Bertolt Brecht |
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30th December 2011, 11:08 AM | #108 |
Illuminator
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 4,107
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30th December 2011, 11:09 AM | #109 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Dec 2001
Posts: 53,084
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If I see somebody with a gun on a plane? I'll kill him. Lupus is Lupus tor central scrutineezer |
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30th December 2011, 12:20 PM | #110 |
Illuminator
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 4,289
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Maybe a couple of the complaints can be construed as objecting to any sort of fundraising outreach, but most of us are pointing out why we think the JREF's approach is decidedly suboptimal. It's annoying to have that feedback dismissed as emotional "whining."
I don't mind being hit up for money by a cause I've supported in the past. I don't mind getting the emails and PMs, and I can easily delete them. And for all the talk about "best practices," other organizations do it better. The National Center for Science Education (an organization whose supporters probably overlap with the JREF's somewhat) contacts me about four times a year. Yes, it contains a request for donations, but that comes at the end of a report of what they've been doing and what they hope to do. I'm a little annoyed at the NCSE for their sucking up to religion, but I'm thinking of overlooking that and cutting them another check because they make their case well. My alma maters hit me up for money all the time, and I don't object to them doing it (as long as it's not by phone!). But they make sure that's not the only time I hear from them and it's not the sole message when they do ask. They send out alumni publications, brag about specific accomplishments of their students and faculty, and talk about what capital projects they have in mind for the future. I try to cut the JREF a little slack because it's a small organization, and one that seems to be trying to make the transition from an organization that provides a platform for Randi (which is worthy, but not sustainable long-term) to being an organization that is less dependent on Randi personally and more about carrying forward his work and (eventually) his legacy. I think DJ is probably making some progress in that area, though it's hard to tell. I just remain baffled at the attitude that he seems to be perpetuating that the Forum is just some kindness that the JREF deigns to provide us all. I would think that most organizations would love to have an active web community of people at least broadly sympathetic to the organization's goals. If the Forum and the JREF have drifted apart over the years, that's not surprising considering that the JREF's main presence in the Forum over those years has been to step in and announce new, stricter rules because the Forum was embarrassing the JREF in some way. Even if all of those measures were necessary, it shouldn't have been the primary interaction between the two. I wish DJ was more interested in fixing that relationship rather than just shrugging and accepting it as an unchangeable fact. |
30th December 2011, 12:43 PM | #111 |
Featherless biped
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Aporia
Posts: 26,431
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I don't think we can come to a conclusion about how worthwhile these emails and PMs are for the foundation based on the number of complaints in these kinds of threads. Only the people with access to the donation figures can work that out.
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30th December 2011, 01:07 PM | #112 |
Muse
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Denmark, yo
Posts: 629
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30th December 2011, 01:10 PM | #113 |
Hot enough to melt 4" rebar
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 6,940
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Seriously? I think we established that "the forum" doesn't really care about the foundation. Only 635-ish people are members of the JREF, and I would suspect, from people I know personally who are members, many of them never come to the forum. There are nearly 3000 active forum participants, and 28,000 total members.
I get monthly paper letters from CSI's various branches, a monthly appeal from my local Dog Rescue club, quarterly notes from NCSE, monthly appeals from my college alma mater, Scouting organization, cancer societies, the Skeptic Society, the juvenile diabetes foundation, and many others. I donate to all of these, as I am able - some years more, some years less, but I don't get so ANGRY that they send me requests. How else are they supposed to raise money? I also get a lot of ads to sell me things, which bothers me more. You know, invitations to invest money I don't have, little pills to enlarge appendices I don't possess, and all the endless rescue attempts for Nigerian royal families. Communication is key, and repetition is important even for those who wish to donate, especially towards the end of the year. It's really easy to ignore the ads, if you are not interested. |
30th December 2011, 01:15 PM | #114 |
JREF Staff
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 43
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Dunstan: Good points, which I'll address:
1. I am happy to say that our approach to fundraising, while maybe not preferable to a some forumites for reasons much discussed in this thread, has generated planned results. I'll refer you to my earlier post in this thread: http://www.internationalskeptics.com...7&postcount=37
Quote:
http://www.randi.org/site/index.php/...37-static/1471 3. I do not believe the forum and the JREF have "drifted apart over the years." I believe the JREF is more supportive of the forum now in some ways than ever before: we promote it in our new printed brochures, tabling banners, in the TAM printed program, and with sponsor table space at TAM, for instance, in addition to paying the not inconsiderable hosting and administrative costs. Some members of the forum will not feel inclined to support the important work we do, and that is their prerogative. Others will become increasingly enthused at our good work and get more involved. In any event, we continue to provide this discussion forum as a way to further support and foster the online skeptics community and because it is a valuable online resources of skeptical information on our subjects of concern. D.J. |
30th December 2011, 01:22 PM | #115 |
Skeptical Carioca
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Rio de Janeiro - RJ
Posts: 10,984
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Absolutely. It's fair that we should show them our appreciation (I have!); it wouldn't hurt us if they showed us some appreciation also. Or if at least, now and then, they showed they care. Small things, like a "I'm sorry" when someone passes away, the occasional "congrats"..., that is, any display that DJ, Randi and others in the organization - who are they? - care. This is, after all, a big community of skeptics!
As admins, Darat and Lisa participate a lot, and I admire the fact that they have not acquired a snobbish or blasé attitude towards the forum. But they're part of "us", the community, not part of "them", the JREF. |
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Regards, Luciana |
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30th December 2011, 01:34 PM | #116 |
Stranded in Sub-Atomica
Join Date: Sep 2004
Posts: 3,395
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Yes I got two.
I'm in the UK anyway , with negative income, but what's this sudden urgency to be donate by the end of the year to double contributions? Is this a US tax thing? Isn't waiting til 2 days to go leaving it a bit late? Feels like one of those double glazing door to door salesmen "this offer is only valid for today" things - I pretty much agree with with Dunstan has said. It 's partly also because of the often "detached" if not slightly hostile relationship the JREF has with the forum, Didn't Randi refer to members as "barking dogs" or similar a few years back? So the only mention he has made of the forum I recall is that which was a criticism - as an annoyance ? And as mentioned debate on Swift comments are separated from the forum . Why have to register to comment on Swift articles - why not link to the forum directly? It almost looks like Swift/JREF is embarrassed and distancing itself from it. Until the members mailing list comes in useful..... |
30th December 2011, 01:43 PM | #117 |
Illuminator
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Arizona
Posts: 4,405
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For me, being used to pretty much nothing from JREF, getting all these appeals on top of each other makes it feel as if the JREF sky is falling. But, it seems everything is OK, and this is merely a new fundraising approach. Once this becomes normal, well, it will be normal.
I think the suggestions made about styles and types of communication are worthwhile, and hope the powers that be incorporate the ideas into the process. These are JREF's forums. I am rather shocked (yes, shocked!) that Mr. Grothe, the JREF President, has clearly indicated his complete lack of interest in the forums. To Mr. Grothe, these forums are unimportant. By extension, we are unimportant. Except when it comes to fundraising. This, I think, is the core of the angst being shown. If Mr. Grothe and his staff had even a token presence on the forums, perhaps an investment of 15 minutes A WEEK making the odd comment or observation, it would go a long way to building a personal link to every member here. The forums would SEEM to matter. We, by extension, would seem to matter to the JREF. |
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- "Who is the greater fool? The fool? Or the one arguing with the fool?" [Uknown] - "The only way to win is not to play." [Tsig quoting 'War Games'] |
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30th December 2011, 01:53 PM | #118 |
In the Peanut Gallery
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Melbourne
Posts: 54,892
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I too find the "too busy to post on the forum" Comment a bit hard to accept. There are plenty of busy people on the forum. I get the impression that it's viewed as a somewhat juvenile sideline by the JREF hierarchy.
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A fanatic is one who can't change his mind and won't change the subject. Sir Winston Churchill |
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30th December 2011, 01:58 PM | #119 |
Summer worshipper
Join Date: Nov 2003
Posts: 17,175
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"Robbing a bank is no crime compared to owning one" - Bertolt Brecht |
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30th December 2011, 02:01 PM | #120 |
JREF Staff
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 43
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Greater fool, and lionking, Any of JREF's staffers are more than welcome to comment on the forum as they are interested, but considering their workload, I can't take them away from other duties to spend the amount of time on the forum that previous staffers may have. Brian Thompson, JREF outreach coordinator, posts here occasionally, I believe. As we have said many times, we appreciate the volunteer moderators' work in running the forum, but as a small nonprofit, we lack the resources to pay someone to do so. Online forums can be fun, and a great way to find people of like-mind. Indeed, this is one of the reasons JREF supports this forum. I myself lurk a lot on a couple of online forums on my off hours, including this one (a favorite is Neogaf).
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