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30th December 2011, 02:12 PM | #121 |
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I think a study was done that showed that most people who post on message forums are introverts. I would say that none of my friends here in NYC are active participants on a message board. I think people on this forum are blinded by their own sort of significance or something. |
30th December 2011, 02:28 PM | #122 |
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Suggesting that you and your staff put in 15 Minutes a week would not be adding to an already heavy work load. It also tells us, the forum members, that we are not worth 15 minutes of your time per week. As you say, you already lurk here so how much longer can it take to make a post or three? It would sure go a very long way in community building.
These 15 minutes have nothing whatsoever to do with moderation or administration of the site. How the site is administered and moderated, whether by paid staff or volunteers, is not at issue in this thread or as part of this topic. Personally, I have nothing but admiration and respect for the moderators here to the extent that I modelled the moderation of my Non-Profit's forums after the JREF. At any rate... thanks for the time. |
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30th December 2011, 02:31 PM | #123 |
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30th December 2011, 02:31 PM | #124 |
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You want people to post here just to make you feel better??
Seriously you don't think that's a sort of bizarre request? To answer your other question. Introverts are often very active online posters. But normal people have lives and don't sit around debating online. It's boring to them. This forum is a gift for us. |
30th December 2011, 02:36 PM | #125 |
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Greaterfool: I believe some staff do participate on the site often; as I mentioned, I believe Brian Thompson posts occasionally. But I am reluctant to assign even 15 minutes of obligatory posting on our forum to our staff; a professional media relations director, a director of educational programs working on curriculum modules or digital publishing, etc have jobs to do for the JREF other than post on our sometimes insular community forum. As I say, they are more than welcome to post as they are interested. And JREF staff very frequently post on randi.org to keep visitors to our website apprised of our various activities and accomplishments. I invite you to visit that site for updates, if you are interested.
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30th December 2011, 02:37 PM | #126 |
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Jeez, have a look at the OP. How would you feel about someone you have had virtually zero interaction with continually hitting on you for money?
What is being suggested is that JREF staff show a minimal, even token, interest in the forum (in their own time like most of us). This would make asking for donations via PM (which is specifically what I was objecting to) more palatable. |
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30th December 2011, 02:40 PM | #127 |
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30th December 2011, 02:41 PM | #128 |
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That is the understatment of the year lionking. I would never have started this thread for one thing. LMAO
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30th December 2011, 02:45 PM | #129 |
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I think this is pathetic. JREF is a foundation. You are basically using the free website provided by the foundation. You know nothing about the foundation, don't care about the foundation, do nothing to support the foundation and oh yes, can be counted on monthly to start or participate in at least one thread in Forum Management that complains about the moderation on this site. You use it and do nothing to support it and then complain about the Forum doing a completely normal thing and use their data base to contact potentional donors. It's like you use the foundation to get what you want out of it for free and then show up with a list of demands of what the foundation needs to do to meet your needs? Seriously you can't at all see how ridiculous this complaint is? It's like staying in someone's guest house for free and then complaining because the owner doesn't stop by and ask you how your day is going. If the owner asks you to chip in for coffee and milk IF YOU WANT TO .......you starting a complaint about it. Just bizarre. |
30th December 2011, 02:55 PM | #130 |
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I care so little about the Foundation that I spent thousands of dollars to go to TAM Oz. Hmmmmmm...
I'll ignore the other (untrue) ad homs. |
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30th December 2011, 02:58 PM | #131 |
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You went to a social gathering and you think that means you care about the foundation.
OK quick name three recent things in education that the JREF has done? BTW you seem to think that spending money is a proof of something. Odd. I find this entire thread tacky. But that's just my opinion. It seems I'm not alone. But let me let you get on with your complaining. |
30th December 2011, 03:14 PM | #132 |
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I think I'll just go with Lionking's response to this part...
Oh... I'll accept your assessment that introverts post more and normal people post less. Based on our respective post counts, that would place you nearer to 'introvert', and me closer to 'normal'? So, with your comment:
Originally Posted by truethat
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30th December 2011, 03:26 PM | #133 |
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It is definitely a U.S. tax thing. Basically, if you make a donation on Dec. 31, 2011, you can deduct it from your 2011 tax return (which is due in April 2012). If you make it on Jan. 1, 2012, you'll have to wait until your 2012 return (due in April 2013).
Quote:
To DJ: first, thanks for responding again. This alone is a big improvement over past practice. I still think that you should be tying your "here's the good work we've been doing" updates in closer with your "please support us" appeals. It's good that you put it in the newsletter, but some of us don't get the newsletter but do get the email solicitations. And do consider tying the SWIFT comments to the Forum -- even having SWIFT posts cross-posted to the Forum would be worthwhile, even if the authors don't stick around to interact. |
30th December 2011, 03:30 PM | #134 |
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30th December 2011, 03:32 PM | #135 |
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Dunstan: Exactly right about end-year giving. As for some people receiving solicitations but not the newsletter, I don't think anyone is in that category because they are one and the same email list. As for cross-posting on the forum, updates are already posted regularly at randi.org (we invite users of the forum to spend some time at the site proper, if they are interested) and we also regularly post updates on the forum, as well; Brian Thompson handles that. Possibly you missed them. Thanks for your input and happy holidays..
Truethat: appealing only to US taxpayers for charitable gifts may at first seem like the way to go, but I am happy to say that a not insignificant minority of the total of annual donations to the JREF come from outside the United States, for which we are grateful. |
30th December 2011, 03:34 PM | #136 |
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Um I have no problem being "not normal" or "an introvert" or "insigificant" or any of the many other insults you'd like to try to twist my words into being. I'm saying many people wouldn't ever think of posting on a message board. Just because you have an interest in a foundation or even run a foundation doesn't mean because said foundation runs a message board that the employees should be mandated to post on it. That is a sick request IMO but I gave the benefit of the doubt that many posters might not realize that average people often NEVER post on message boards. So asking them to do so is bizarre. If you want to know what the foundation that supports this message board does, go find out. There's a newletter that is emailed to you and a main page and google. To expect them to come here is weird IMO. |
30th December 2011, 04:07 PM | #137 |
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My belief is that people that work for Non-Profits should have more invested in the organization than a paycheck... they should support the organization mission. As such, interacting with the JREF forums should not be a hardship, since advancing the JREF mission is part of the purpose of the Forums.
Really, there should not be this seperation between the JREF and the Forums since we are all on the same team. So, is it really weird and sick to ask that part of the team to interact with this part of the team? |
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30th December 2011, 04:24 PM | #138 |
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D.J. If there is a single email list, why did a significant number of people get two messages? (I did, just as I often get double emails from JREF). Apart from the fact this is annoying for the recipient, it seems like someone amongst your busy staff is doubling up on effort- or your single list may need pruning?
In addition, I donated about two weeks ago. I realise that past donors are probable future donors, so are obvious people to ask, but it can be rather galling to get repeat requests which seem to display complete ignorance of past donations. Perhaps you could somehow flag recent donors so you could avoid this? In the past, there were several fund raising drives exclusively for the forum. When money was needed for hardware, it was raised within days. While most forum members feel sympathy with the sceptical ideal, it's the forum that attracts their primary loyalty. Remember, many of us are not American; contributing to a charity that spends most of it's efforts in the Americas may not be a priority. Contributing to an international forum might be higher on the interest list of many of those 27,000 or whatever members. If running the forum is a significant cost to JREF, might I suggest you try to decrease that cost by seeking financial support for the forum, from it's users? That way those posters to whom other JREF activities are a mystery might feel more involved? |
30th December 2011, 04:29 PM | #139 |
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Just curious why you would think the emails were sent twice rather than a glitch in the system?
Wouldn't common sense tell you that if the emails were sent twice everyone would have received two? I do agree with the last sentence. I think that would resolve it for a lot of people. Good idea Soapy Sam! |
30th December 2011, 04:31 PM | #140 |
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No we're not. Many people come to the forum just to talk on the forum and have no interest whatsoever about what the foundation does. Yes it's sick to try to mandate another person's behavior because you feel that you need some sort of validation that you matter to the foundation. It's uber creepy to me to be honest. I'm just saying IMO I know obviously others disagree but to me it comes across as desperate, needy and weird. I don't need anyone from JREF to come on the forum to post. It's two completely different things to me. Also, if they are working for the Non Profit, their focus should be on the non profit, the message board is not the non profit. |
30th December 2011, 04:32 PM | #141 |
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I don't know what the difference is between email being sent twice and "a glitch in the system that causes email to be sent twice".
If I receive 2 messages, with different timestamps, I assume the message was sent twice. |
30th December 2011, 04:32 PM | #142 |
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soapysam: Thanks for the questions. I think the answer may be that you may be subscribed by two different emails addresses. If you receive duplicate email newsletters from us under two different email addresses, you can unsubscribe one of them by clicking the unsubscribe link at the bottom of each email. This would also explain why you would receive an additional appeal by email even if you already donated, since recent donors would not have received the end-year appeal (online donations are matched to the email supplied when making the donation, and recent donations are excluded from further appeals). Please see if you get JREF newsletters coming to two different email addresses, and let us know (by email) if we need to update any records for you (or, again, you can do it yourself by clicking the link at the bottom of every email)
If you are talking instead about some folks getting two duplicate PMs, about opposed to duplicate JREF email newsletters, that was done in error as explained in my earlier post (http://www.internationalskeptics.com...7&postcount=37). Great minds think alike: We may explore fundraising for the forum specifically when we roll out our new website, currently in development, and we further plan and implement our web outreach strategy. |
30th December 2011, 04:44 PM | #143 |
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Is this purposeful ignorance?
No, *I* am not trying to mandate anything. *I* think it's a good practice for the JREF orgranization to have the JREF staff work with JREF forum members. Yes, not everyone here is on the side of critical thinking, but the vast majority are. This vast majority's thinking is well aligned to the JREF Goals. It is that vast majority the JREF should be using for more than donations. Even the non-critical thinkers can be utilized in unexpected ways. It has NOTHING to do with self-validation. It's not about what YOU need. Nor what I need. It's about accessing the resources of 2,000 like minded folks. Of course, this was obvious. |
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30th December 2011, 04:51 PM | #144 |
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That's certainly possible D.J. I'll check now and unsubscribe one if there are two different ones. I have a Gmail address which forwards to a Hotmail address. It's probable you may have both, so some stuff goes direct to Hotmail and some is copied from Gmail.
The two PMs were sent 28 minutes apart, if that info is of any use . |
30th December 2011, 04:58 PM | #145 |
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Greater fool: Some of that back and forth may result from a misunderstanding you have that the JREF does not work with the forum. In fact, we work with the forum robustly. A number of times a week I am personally in discussion with Darat on various matters, and JREF worked with the forum at TAM, with the promotion of the 10:23 campaign, grassroots outreach and in a number of other ways. We promote the forum as a vibrant online skeptical community in our promotional literature and tabling events, and we promote it as a valuable storehouse of important skeptical discussion (and independent research). You may be unaware of all of this, and therefore appear to feel like JREF hasn't been paying the forum enough attention. It is true that we lack the resources for any staffer to spend the hours on the forum that previous staffers may have felt obliged to (JREF staff have other jobs to do) but, as I said, any staffer is welcome to get involved in the forum as they are interested. As I have said a few times, and possibly you missed this, staffers are in fact involved with the forum currently. Brian Thompson comes to mind. I hope this clarifies any possible misunderstandings you may have about attention paid by the JREF to the discussion forum.
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30th December 2011, 05:15 PM | #146 |
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Isn't that what many charitable organizations do? There are a few I can think of (Desert Bus comes to mind) that actually do something to get donations, and really, if JREF did something like that, I'd think it was totally awesome, and try to come up with a couple bucks. But JREF isn't being different than almost every other organization, I think it's just that it's all new, and different than it used to be.
Having said that, I do have a bit of an issue with the PM coming from Randi. When I send a PM, I have to personally send it myself, and I have to send it to five people at a time. On the other hand... it's Randi's organization. I guess I don't really know where I stand on this. But it just seems like an annoyance at worst, rather than a huge freaking issue. |
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30th December 2011, 05:15 PM | #147 |
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Side note: Wasn't Flim Flam available on Kindle in March 2010? I could ahve sworn I saw it that far back..
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30th December 2011, 05:22 PM | #148 |
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WHY? Why in the world do you think it's a good idea for this to happen? Also in case you haven't noticed Randi is doing just fine without the forum members even if some of them help. But perhaps the greatest issue for me are the number of "intellectually challenged" people that often visit this forum. You make it seem as if it's a bastion of 2000 brilliant people. It isn't. |
30th December 2011, 05:38 PM | #149 |
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I'm supposed to by annoyed by a PM?
Nobody ever sends me PMs. I was so excited I sent money. |
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30th December 2011, 05:38 PM | #150 |
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First, let me clarify: I'm not 'whining' about the PMs. As I stated in my first message here, the JREF has every right to do this.
What I've been trying to do is suggest that there are better, more effective ways to raise money. In my opinion -- an opinion that I think is a fairly rational and justifiable one -- if forum members felt a closer tie with the JREF as an organization, and its leaders, then those members would also be more willing to donate money. Look at how many times we've raised money for people in these forums. Every year, we have fund drives to raise money for scholarships for people to attend TAM. We raise money to help fellow forumites in trouble. A few years ago, forum members helped me raise money to bring a Chinese participant to TAM, covering airfare, accommodation, etc. (sadly, in the end, the US embassy rejected her visa application). Our efforts to help NobbyNobbs has been inspiring to a great many forum members. The amount of money raised by forumites has not been insignificant (easily in the tens of thousands of dollars range)...yet it was done without repeated email requests, PMs, and other such tactics. In fact, in most cases, the fund-raising appeal consists of one single thread in these forums, informing members of the need for money. Yet I'd be willing to bet that the total amount donated by members of this forum to help other members far exceeds the amount of money that forum members have donated to the JREF. In short -- my comments aren't to criticize the JREF for fundraising. It is necessary, and important. Nor do I criticize them for using these forums to do that fundraising...it's their forum. What I'm seeking to do is to suggest that although this method may be yielding positive results compared to past efforts, that there are other methods and strategies that could be even more effective. That this forum is a massive potential resource for the JREF, one that is largely being squandered, and a great deal of its potential ignored. This forum has members who are leading scientists, celebrities, authors, teachers, etc. It has members who are actively involved in promoting skepticism and critical thinking in their communities. And it has members who have more than adequately demonstrated their willingness and ability to contribute money to help out worthwhile causes. I'm suggesting that those same members will respond much more positively to active efforts by the JREF to engage with them, rather than generic messages sent only when they need money. DJ sees it differently...and I'm not the guy in charge of the JREF. I've said my piece, I've made my suggestions. Truth be told, the response thus far seems to focus more on defending the methods they've already used (and giving reasons why its impossible to do anything different) than in exploring the potential for using different strategies that might take more time/effort (but also result in increased donations). The methods the JREF uses at present are the most time-efficient, and they do result in increased giving. I don't dispute that. Personally, I think they could be doing better, but I have no way (at present) of proving that. This is the last I will say on this...I've given my suggestions, and my reasons for them. DJ and I have also had some private communication, clarifying some of these issues. I continue to support and respect the work of the JREF, and I hope that some day China will have a similar organization here to work on debunking woo as aggressively and effectively as James Randi and the JREF have done. And if/when the day comes that we have such an organization, we'll have to come up with our own strategies for fund raising; and I'm sure that we'll have just as many people with just as many different opinions about how it should be done. |
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30th December 2011, 05:41 PM | #151 |
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I haven't read anything else in this thread, but seriously, enough is enough!
one, maybe two emails is ok, but I'm pretty sure I have received 4 or 5 emails asking me to donate now, and now a PM. I'm sorry, but I consider that spam, so I definitely won't be donating this year. |
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30th December 2011, 05:44 PM | #152 |
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I hear you. I don't think it's a huge freaking issue for anyone, actually. It's just that a number of people giving voice to their annoyance at the same time makes it seem like a huge freaking deal. Personally, I didn't like the tone of the PM. It seemed a bit smarmy for my tastes, and I was surprised to have gotten such a PM from the JREF, so I said something. No big deal, actually--
In time, I'm sure I'll come to think, "Oh, another urgent message requiring my immediate attention from the JREF! Time must be running out! I guess I'd best act quickly!" After all, the best-practices in the field of nonprofit fundraising aren't the best practices for nothing! I will strive to be a good forumite! I'm seriously happy to hear that the JREF is making money. |
30th December 2011, 05:44 PM | #153 |
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30th December 2011, 05:59 PM | #154 |
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30th December 2011, 06:09 PM | #155 |
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30th December 2011, 06:16 PM | #156 |
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You do see the irony of posting that in this particular thread?
This thread doesn't offend me, I just think it's stupid. Great post. I would like to point out though that it seems like less than a dozen people seem offended at all. I guess the rest understand it is a necessary fundraising effort and are also happy that the JREF is making money. |
30th December 2011, 06:40 PM | #157 |
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I just donated. I hope others do as well. After reading four pages of pretentious, prudish whining, nothing would please me more than knowing I contributed to the very statistics that will justify future fundraising PMs, emails, and banners.
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30th December 2011, 06:53 PM | #158 |
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Wolfman: I wouldn't say I see things differently than you. I agree that JREF's involvement with the forum is a good thing, and reiterate that JREF staffers regularly post on the forum, providing updates about JREF activities (Brian Thompson comes to mind). And I reiterate that such updates are posted regularly on the site hosting the forum (randi.org). Additionally, we are talking about a single PM to the forum members, which I approved, not about messaging the forum with "repeated email requests, PMs, and other such tactics" as you write.
The forum is an online home for many talented and enthusiastic skeptics, many of whom work with the JREF regularly in putting on local skeptics workshops, helping with activism campaigns or media stunts, assisting with TAM, blogging for randi.org, and the like. In addition, JREF promotes the forum in its printed promotional materials, tabling events, banners, and at our large annual conference. So again, I don't think we see things differently at all (other than on the single matter of the PM being warranted or not; I agree with development staff that it was a good idea, and you may disagree, which is your prerogative, of course). |
30th December 2011, 07:03 PM | #159 |
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30th December 2011, 07:14 PM | #160 |
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DJ,
First, thanks for all the responses (both in public, and in private). I don't think there's anything else to say without just repeating previous posts, and I promised I was done with this topic anyway I wish you good luck in your endeavors...as I stated in my PM to you, I do greatly appreciate the stronger emphasis on 'Education' that the JREF has taken under your leadership. There are differences of opinion on how to accomplish certain goals...but no disagreement on what those goals are. |
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