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31st May 2012, 09:31 AM | #41 |
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31st May 2012, 09:33 AM | #42 |
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I'll repeat my earlier question. Did you actually read the article about the MMA artist?
ETA: What does the triune brain have to do with anything? |
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31st May 2012, 02:44 PM | #43 |
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2nd June 2012, 12:58 PM | #44 |
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2nd June 2012, 05:31 PM | #45 |
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2nd June 2012, 05:41 PM | #46 |
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4th June 2012, 08:37 AM | #47 |
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This makes no sense. Superstitious faith in TV about what?
If you think MMA is fake, you can easily test this claim just like that Japanese guy did in the link posted earlier. Good luck! ETA - Spectator sports are not "so called reality TV," so there's your strawman. |
5th June 2012, 11:56 AM | #48 |
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http://www.internationalskeptics.com...08#post8197108
Yeah.... it doesn't get more 'real' than this. But if you want to derail this thread into an internet tough guy challenge, start your own thread. This one is about whether JREF has an image to maintain, and if so, what/who fits that image. I don't think that Pat Robertson, or for that matter Sylvia Browne (should she decide to purchase advertising on that feed), are a good fit. I don't think that MMA prowess, or any other facet of TV ratings popularity should be a factor over whether Steven Hawking or Brock Lesnar gets featured on the next JREF front page. I'll concede your point that any MMA fighter could whip Hawking... and I'd ask, so what? I hear that Charlie Sheen is a pretty skeptical guy. |
5th June 2012, 04:02 PM | #49 |
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Equating Pat Robertson to Silvia Brown is quiet a stretch considering there so far no bases for it...
(At best.) |
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5th June 2012, 04:34 PM | #50 |
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8th June 2012, 08:24 AM | #51 |
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You seem to be (intentionally?) missing the point.
No one calls spectator sports "reality TV." MMA is not "fake," in the sense that many martial arts are woo-ish about chi power or whatever. It's just guys fighting.
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Might you concede that using characters in popular culture who are themselves skeptics could be useful in spreading the JREF message beyond folks who are fans of Steven Hawking?
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8th June 2012, 08:51 AM | #52 |
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That's the issue. "Martial Arts" is crammed to the gills with woo and prestidigitaton-like trickery. Chi, coal walking, board punching, brick punching, these things overlap and use tricks.
MMA, though I don't watch it, is an active pro, real sport akin to boxing or Olympic wrestling. And unlike pro wrestling. |
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8th June 2012, 11:44 AM | #53 |
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As I said, some Martial Arts have Chi and such-like often attached (but not always, and not always for particular types. I've attended judo, karate, Pencak Silat and Wing Chun classes, and none of them had any supernatural elements in the way they were taught); it seems a bit perverse to use the general term "Martial Arts" as a synonym for "Martial Arts which involve woo", when it has a perfectly good meaning already.
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8th June 2012, 02:06 PM | #54 |
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Quote:
Nope. That's a strawman. |
8th June 2012, 02:23 PM | #55 |
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As I mentioned, Penn and Teller did a pretty good debunking on Martial Arts, and they didn't stop with the mystical energy stuff, they also focused on the whole culture of selling 'deadly warrior secrets' and the hype that surrounds the business end.
In order to separate people from more of their money, the levels of deception employed rival any faith healer that Randi ever debunked. Teacher worship, lineage games, origination myths, secret manuals, potions, retention exercises... it is the stuff of carnies, and it goes back centuries. So when I hear how *your* grandmaster (general 'you') is the only true grandmaster in the world, and nothing at all like the thousands of other rival grandmasters, other folks may be willing to suspend disbelief, empty the teacup that is their mind, and 'eat bitter'. And as far as I can see, MMA is simply the televangelist branch of that particular faith based discipline with trophies and title matches replacing the trappings of the temple. I don't know, I guess I'm just too... skeptical or something to make a good grasshopper. |
8th June 2012, 02:27 PM | #56 |
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8th June 2012, 07:19 PM | #57 |
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8th June 2012, 07:37 PM | #58 |
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I've seen MMA, on TV and Internet, multiple times. And while its not "fake" in the sense that the fighters obviously really are fighting and trying to win, there's plenty to get the skeptic senses tingling on a lighter level. Starting with the fighters being introduced and special attention paid to their different chosen "styles"; yet as soon as the fight starts it almost immediately devolves into the exact same indiscriminate grapple-punching.
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8th June 2012, 07:54 PM | #59 |
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I find that's one of the highlights of most legitimate martial arts fighting. Only in totally fixed venues (like heavyweight wrestling) and in fantasies (movies and TV) do you see those lovely poses and stances and perfect flying kicks and chops. Two capable fighters trying to beat the crap out of each other generally look like a couple of kids fighting,... just hurting each other more.
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8th June 2012, 08:35 PM | #60 |
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You probably haven't seen enough to spot the difference.
In addition...I don't think the "styles" that are announced mean much of anything these days. And I certainly dont think "special" attention is given to styles. Many avoid classification at all. Generally there are strikers and grapplers. You can subdivide a bit from there. But a persons "style" many times is just the point of entry they were introduced to combat sports. Many guys get their start in wrestling. Some in Judo. Many in Brazilian ju-jitsu, kick boxing etc etc. Either way...any person who claims to have a "style" that has special properties or powers is instantly exposed. IMO it would be the claims of woo that would be important not a label for where that particular person received the majority of training. |
8th June 2012, 08:42 PM | #61 |
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8th June 2012, 08:43 PM | #62 |
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Actually...watch the very first UFC. They did pay attention to styles. That was one hell of a wake up call for many a woo practitioner!
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8th June 2012, 09:38 PM | #63 |
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Mine was a legitimate question - don't you say you don't watch television? I was curious how you'd have seen MMA without television. Why would you think I've never seen P&T, though. Do you think we're incapable of keeping up with you level of skeptic research?
Hint: All professional sports is a racket in some form or another. If David Beckham came out in support of critical thinking should we dismiss him as just a part of the football "racket". I mean look at the match fixing, racism, hooligan violence, et al. How about Lance Armstrong? Surely bicycling is a clean cut sport. Or how about we condemn all academicians because of the rampant publish or perish syndrome and the various researchers who've knowingly submitted bogus research and bogus results. Okay, we get it. You want a higher class of spokesperson. By that, I take it you'd eliminate all athletes. Meh? I don't much care - I like sports and if someone who's popular in their field can expand the people who are paying attention, well... good. |
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8th June 2012, 09:49 PM | #64 |
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If television is your preferred means of learning about the world, knock yourself out. My choices aren't stopping you in the least.
And if the end result is the inability to do anything more than parrot strawmen, and string together fallacies like that, I'll stick to my approach, thanks. |
8th June 2012, 11:36 PM | #65 |
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9th June 2012, 06:17 AM | #66 |
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Ah, yes, because asking you how you know about MMA if you don't watch television is easily translated into: "Because I, Foolmewunz, get my entire worldview from Desilu Productions."
Uh, no,.. actually it doesn't. It is an enquiry, which you did not answer, as to how you know (or want us to believe you know) so much about MMA, since it's essentially a television-created "sport'. Do you attend matches regularly? Hang around at Gold's Gym and talk to the up-and-coming talent? Do research work for the President's Council on Physical Fitness? How would someone who eschews the glass teat learn about it? If not so predictable, I'd find it ironic that you accuse me of creating a strawman when you've clearly, not for the first time, created one yourself in dodging the question by accusing me of getting my worldview from television. |
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9th June 2012, 08:58 AM | #67 |
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If you had asked that question, you could have gotten an answer. But of course, you didn't ask that question, you asked a pointless Yes/No question and got the correct answer.
And then, instead of engaging in rational discourse, you chose to fabricate strawmen and play trite internet commando games in an apparent bid to derail. Now, do you have anything relevant to the thread topic that is either correct or useful? |
9th June 2012, 10:17 AM | #68 |
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OK, so more than one of us are getting this impression of crimresearch's complaint, and have asked for clarification without success.
Could crimresearch possibly, pretty please with sugar on top, clarify the objection to an MMA person speaking about skeptical issues at the JREF?
Originally Posted by crimresearch
Penn and Teller are on television, yes? Anyway, more seriously: Might you concede that using characters in popular culture who are themselves skeptics could be useful in spreading the JREF message beyond folks who are fans of Steven Hawking? |
9th June 2012, 11:14 AM | #69 |
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If you want to see P&T BS sans TV or commercials, YouTube is your friend.
I've made my point quite clearly. I find the stated concerns over protecting JREF's image on the internet to be inconsistently applied on the factors I cited. And I'm not aware of a shortage of either advertisers, or spokespersons for skepticism, that would limit the choices to only those under discussion. Feel free to make your points about your sacred cows being gored, in the Personal Issues/Rants section of the forum. |
9th June 2012, 11:23 AM | #70 |
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The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts.Bertrand Russell Zooterkin is correct Darat Nerd! Hokulele Join the JREF Folders ! Team 13232 Ezekiel 23:20 |
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9th June 2012, 11:27 AM | #71 |
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9th June 2012, 01:13 PM | #72 |
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Sacred cows? I can't even watch MMA. It's way too violent for me, and I really like boxing. Several of us have gotten the same (apparently wrong) impression from the words you have posted here, so respectfully the communication problem appears to be at your end. I'll drop it.
Being snooty about "television" when you watch youtube is pretty funny though. Thanks for that. Some of the 9/11 truthers do that - tell me I'm brainwashed by the "media" when they get their info on youtube. Precious. |
9th June 2012, 07:09 PM | #73 |
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And yet, curiously, when I asked the question.... You Did Not Answer. You replied with a condescending strawman about me choosing to get my information from television.
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Useful? That depends, of course, on what one considers useful. Since I'm not sure that my goal in life is to support your ridiculous contentions, I think some may have found my comments useful. Relevant? I stated my piece. I think having "celebrity" spokespersons for critical thinking and skepticism is a good thing. If those persons happen to come from (to me) fringe sports, so what? Ya know what I think? I think you made a mistake in your OP and you're backing and filling with the pseudo-elitist approach to it just being unseemly. Not actually knowing what MMA was, you assumed it was "MA", i.e. Martial Arts and with your vast education (which is apparently from YouTube), you associated it with the lengthy research Penn & Teller and their bit on the nonsense surrounding all the Asian and pseudo-Asian martial arts. (And here's the irony... I think P&T are great. I recognize them as entertainers, though and I'd never use them as a primary source for anything other than The Penn & Teller Story.) |
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11th June 2012, 04:08 AM | #74 |
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11th June 2012, 12:56 PM | #75 |
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I answered your Yes/No question 'Yes'. That's the reality. To that, you've offered nothing factual on the topic.
You can make up things I never said, and pretend I didn't say what I did, all you want... I don't think it demonstrates what you hope. What is does do, is try to derail this thread and avoid actual rational discourse about the topic by replacing it with personal issues. |
11th June 2012, 12:58 PM | #76 |
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12th June 2012, 03:01 PM | #77 |
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14th June 2012, 04:05 PM | #78 |
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15th June 2012, 03:43 PM | #79 |
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16th June 2012, 01:05 PM | #80 |
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