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Tags health care issues , pharmaceutical companies

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Old 21st September 2015, 05:38 PM   #41
arthwollipot
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Yeah. It's easy for an individual to produce effective pharmaceuticals. Why haven't you already done it?
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Old 21st September 2015, 05:47 PM   #42
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Hilary tweets that she is going to tackle this issue.

Pharma stock take a dive on the market the next day.

Story on CNN
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Old 21st September 2015, 06:04 PM   #43
marplots
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Some people make medicine for profit.

Other people complain about how evil the first people are.

The complainers never seem to get around to making medicine for charity.

If you have a problem with the world, change yourself.
There's probably a pill for that.
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Old 21st September 2015, 06:14 PM   #44
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
Yeah. It's easy for an individual to produce effective pharmaceuticals. Why haven't you already done it?
Can't be arsed, to be honest. But then, I'm not the one complaining about the motives of those who can.

However, it's clearly quite easy for individuals to pool their resources to achieve a common goal. Indeed, many such groupings of individuals have done so with huge success in the pharmaceutical industry. And many other such groupings seem to have formed around charitable causes of all kinds, and have had good results in obtaining additional resources from even more individuals. Then there's political action committees, trade unions, professional associations, hobbyist clubs, etc. There are even investment funds that operate according to their collective ethical sensibility.

Humans are social animals. To say you can't solve any problem unless you can solve it by yourself is to renounce your essential humanity. These for-profit pharmacists who band together to serve their own greed are more human than that.
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Old 21st September 2015, 06:53 PM   #45
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Perhaps human life is too important to be left to the mercy of market forces?
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Old 21st September 2015, 07:01 PM   #46
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As a medical provider who doesn't gouge my patients, I don't think it's me that needs to change.
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Old 21st September 2015, 07:11 PM   #47
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Originally Posted by Beerina View Post
So is the FDA forbidding competition somehow for this old drug, in combo or not?
They have obviously worked out in their genius brains that they can "Make a killing" in the market for a number of years. Literally.
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Old 21st September 2015, 07:15 PM   #48
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
As a medical provider who doesn't gouge my patients, I don't think it's me that needs to change.
As a person who wishes someone else would give away free medicine, you might want to.
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Old 21st September 2015, 07:42 PM   #49
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
As a person who wishes someone else would give away free medicine, you might want to.
I do sometimes. It's called volunteering. Good for the soul.
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Old 21st September 2015, 08:49 PM   #50
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Some people make medicine for profit.

Other people complain about how evil the first people are.

The complainers never seem to get around to making medicine for charity.

If you have a problem with the world, change yourself.
Game.


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Match.
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Old 21st September 2015, 09:08 PM   #51
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Some people make medicine for profit.

Other people complain about how evil the first people are.

The complainers never seem to get around to making medicine for charity.

If you have a problem with the world, change yourself.
I don't think you've read the stories. These drugs were developed -- and the costs recovered -- many years ago and are out-of-patent. The pharmaceutical companies were making profits selling them at much lower costs. Hedge funds -- who had nothing to do with "making medicine" -- have bought the rights to the drugs and have boosted the price by thousands of percent just because they can. And they are actively preventing other companies from making generic equivalents. If you think anything anybody does to make money is A Good Thing, that's the case you should be making. But hedge funds are not known as health care providers, and some peoples' lives depend on these drugs.
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Old 21st September 2015, 09:23 PM   #52
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
I don't think you've read the stories. These drugs were developed -- and the costs recovered -- many years ago and are out-of-patent. The pharmaceutical companies were making profits selling them at much lower costs. Hedge funds -- who had nothing to do with "making medicine" -- have bought the rights to the drugs and have boosted the price by thousands of percent just because they can. And they are actively preventing other companies from making generic equivalents. If you think anything anybody does to make money is A Good Thing, that's the case you should be making. But hedge funds are not known as health care providers, and some peoples' lives depend on these drugs.
**** 'em.
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Old 21st September 2015, 09:45 PM   #53
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Originally Posted by The Central Scrutinizer View Post
Game.


Set.


Match.
You don't think they were already making a good profit on these at the lower price?
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Old 22nd September 2015, 01:32 AM   #54
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Can't be arsed, to be honest. But then, I'm not the one complaining about the motives of those who can.

However, it's clearly quite easy for individuals to pool their resources to achieve a common goal. Indeed, many such groupings of individuals have done so with huge success in the pharmaceutical industry. And many other such groupings seem to have formed around charitable causes of all kinds, and have had good results in obtaining additional resources from even more individuals. Then there's political action committees, trade unions, professional associations, hobbyist clubs, etc. There are even investment funds that operate according to their collective ethical sensibility.

Humans are social animals. To say you can't solve any problem unless you can solve it by yourself is to renounce your essential humanity. These for-profit pharmacists who band together to serve their own greed are more human than that.
It costs a ton of money to make a drug when you factor in all the failures. Unlike many, I have no problem with pharm companies charging what they can for new effective medicines that are under patent (although I think having single payer healthcare would help balance the pricing in many cases). The pharm industry returns less on investment than other sectors like finance and tech, so it's not like they are the greedy bastards people often make them out to be. But I dont see how anyone can defend that these companies go and buy the rights to an off patent generic drug (with a very small market that no other company bothered to get approval for) and then jack up the price. They have literally contributed nothing. It's rent seeking. They are taking advantage of the onerous, but important, regulatory system in this field. These bad actors are probably very negative for the industry as a whole because they make it look bad and they risk having the pricing system for new and existing drugs changed.

Last edited by ThunderChunky; 22nd September 2015 at 01:36 AM.
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Old 22nd September 2015, 01:46 AM   #55
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Some people make medicine for profit.

Other people complain about how evil the first people are.

The complainers never seem to get around to making medicine for charity.

If you have a problem with the world, change yourself.

In saying that you are quite literally claiming that there is no need for any laws whatsoever. Of course, I have a damn good feeling that you can't comprehend that you are.
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Old 22nd September 2015, 03:11 AM   #56
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Originally Posted by Caper View Post
Can't the drug be made generically now?
Yes, the patent expired decades ago, it's just that nobody else is currently producing a generic version. Yet.
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Old 22nd September 2015, 03:21 AM   #57
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I think I need a Libertarian/Objectivist to explain this to me. I'm sure it's moral... somehow or other.
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Old 22nd September 2015, 03:23 AM   #58
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Originally Posted by marplots View Post
Sounds like the same "gaming the system" those patent trolls are up to. Bastards, every last one.
No this is the genius of libertarian health care. They realize that a pill being sold for a $13 really has a value much higher than that and move to correct it. They know that they can charge more because they have a monopoly on life saving medication and thus will exploit it. This should be held up as a benefit of our wonderful health care system. Now the hedge funds will have enough money to research other drugs that they can buy and jack up the price on.
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Old 22nd September 2015, 03:24 AM   #59
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
Perhaps human life is too important to be left to the mercy of market forces?
Heresy!
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Old 22nd September 2015, 03:27 AM   #60
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
As a person who wishes someone else would give away free medicine, you might want to.
Who wants to give away medicine for free? No one is arguing for that. Wall street saw an opportunity to screw a new batch of people and took it, clearly you support that when ever it happens.
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Old 22nd September 2015, 03:28 AM   #61
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
I don't think you've read the stories. These drugs were developed -- and the costs recovered -- many years ago and are out-of-patent. The pharmaceutical companies were making profits selling them at much lower costs. Hedge funds -- who had nothing to do with "making medicine" -- have bought the rights to the drugs and have boosted the price by thousands of percent just because they can. And they are actively preventing other companies from making generic equivalents. If you think anything anybody does to make money is A Good Thing, that's the case you should be making. But hedge funds are not known as health care providers, and some peoples' lives depend on these drugs.
And that is why they should be expensive because they are willing to pay a lot. Basic capitalism. Why make a couple of dollars profit per pill when you can make lots of hundreds of dollars profit per pill?
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Old 22nd September 2015, 03:30 AM   #62
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Originally Posted by Information Analyst View Post
Yes, the patent expired decades ago, it's just that nobody else is currently producing a generic version. Yet.
I think this is the key to their investment strategy. They are essentially purchasing the rights to a monopoly. They purposely target drugs that are rarely prescribed because in many cases, that drug is the only one available to treat the rare condition...as there is not much incentive for other drug companies to produce alternate medicines for the same condition, as the patient pool isn't large enough to warrant the research and development costs of a new drug.

Since they have a legal monopoly on a product that people have to purchase if they are sick, they can charge whatever they want because patients and doctors have little to no other options...and the company makes millions of dollars in the process.
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Old 22nd September 2015, 03:42 AM   #63
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
No this is the genius of libertarian health care. They realize that a pill being sold for a $13 really has a value much higher than that and move to correct it. They know that they can charge more because they have a monopoly on life saving medication and thus will exploit it. This should be held up as a benefit of our wonderful health care system. Now the hedge funds will have enough money to research other drugs that they can buy and jack up the price on.
Which reminds me of my own evil marketing strategy. I take a bullet (retail cost of about $.25), load it into a gun, and offer not to shoot my customer for the small sum of everything they have. It's a life-saving offer. By adding the value of a gun pointed at their head, I can leverage the low-cost bullet into the most important thing in their world.

Don't praise me. This is par for the course for an ethics-free businessman.
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Old 22nd September 2015, 03:43 AM   #64
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
Perhaps human life is too important to be left to the mercy of market forces?
Let me point out that there are no market forces at work here. It's a monopoly. That's the problem. I am surprised that this practice is legal in a country that supposedly values the free market.
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Old 22nd September 2015, 03:45 AM   #65
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Originally Posted by marplots View Post
Which reminds me of my own evil marketing strategy. I take a bullet (retail cost of about $.25), load it into a gun, and offer not to shoot my customer for the small sum of everything they have. It's a life-saving offer. By adding the value of a gun pointed at their head, I can leverage the low-cost bullet into the most important thing in their world.

Don't praise me. This is par for the course for an ethics-free businessman.
No no no. That is a threat, you need to find people say in anaphalctic shock who need an Epipen or they will die, then sell it to them for $20,000. To set up that situation I would recommend using annoyed killer bees.
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Old 22nd September 2015, 03:57 AM   #66
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Originally Posted by Macgyver1968 View Post
I think this is the key to their investment strategy. They are essentially purchasing the rights to a monopoly. They purposely target drugs that are rarely prescribed because in many cases, that drug is the only one available to treat the rare condition...as there is not much incentive for other drug companies to produce alternate medicines for the same condition, as the patient pool isn't large enough to warrant the research and development costs of a new drug.

Since they have a legal monopoly on a product that people have to purchase if they are sick, they can charge whatever they want because patients and doctors have little to no other options...and the company makes millions of dollars in the process.
The beauty of the scheme is that they save thousands of dollars. Even though they sell a lot less, because most people can't afford it, they have a massive increase in yield. So they only have to make a fraction of the tablets they used to have to make.
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Old 22nd September 2015, 04:15 AM   #67
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
No no no. That is a threat, you need to find people say in anaphalctic shock who need an Epipen or they will die, then sell it to them for $20,000. To set up that situation I would recommend using annoyed killer bees.
Free peanut butter for all the kiddies!
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Old 22nd September 2015, 04:23 AM   #68
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Originally Posted by marplots View Post
Free peanut butter for all the kiddies!
Now you have it!
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Old 22nd September 2015, 04:24 AM   #69
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Originally Posted by a_unique_person View Post
The beauty of the scheme is that they save thousands of dollars. Even though they sell a lot less, because most people can't afford it, they have a massive increase in yield. So they only have to make a fraction of the tablets they used to have to make.
Probably will not be hurting their demand that much. Life or death is a pretty compelling motivation.
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Old 22nd September 2015, 05:00 AM   #70
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
Probably will not be hurting their demand that much. Life or death is a pretty compelling motivation.
A lot of people won't be able to afford it at all.
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Old 22nd September 2015, 05:04 AM   #71
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
I don't think you've read the stories. These drugs were developed -- and the costs recovered -- many years ago and are out-of-patent. The pharmaceutical companies were making profits selling them at much lower costs. Hedge funds -- who had nothing to do with "making medicine" -- have bought the rights to the drugs and have boosted the price by thousands of percent just because they can. And they are actively preventing other companies from making generic equivalents. If you think anything anybody does to make money is A Good Thing, that's the case you should be making. But hedge funds are not known as health care providers, and some peoples' lives depend on these drugs.
You have to admire how deliciously evil they are. I bet this guy will grow a handlebar mustache just so he can twirl it while he cackles with glee!
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Old 22nd September 2015, 05:05 AM   #72
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Originally Posted by a_unique_person View Post
You don't think they were already making a good profit on these at the lower price?
I don't know. How much profit were they making? Also, define "good profit", and remember to show your work.
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Old 22nd September 2015, 05:26 AM   #73
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Originally Posted by a_unique_person View Post
A lot of people won't be able to afford it at all.
Well they should be proud to be noble sacrifices to capitalism.
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Old 22nd September 2015, 05:28 AM   #74
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Originally Posted by rustypouch View Post
Capitalism in action. A product is worth what people are willing to pay, and if the price is too high, the cost will come down.
If only it worked that way. I'm sure the guy is counting on the gov't to start paying for this drug with medicaid, etc.
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Old 22nd September 2015, 06:10 AM   #75
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Originally Posted by Information Analyst View Post
Yes, the patent expired decades ago, it's just that nobody else is currently producing a generic version. Yet.
Note that the current owner is actively blocking anyone else from making a generic, in part by controlling distribution of the drug so tightly that other companies can't get the samples they need to duplicate it.
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Old 22nd September 2015, 06:22 AM   #76
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Some people make medicine for profit.

Other people complain about how evil the first people are.

The complainers never seem to get around to making medicine for charity.

If you have a problem with the world, change yourself.
You can't be serious.

There's nothing wrong with wanting to make a profit, but gouging the people who can least afford it, especially to this almost comical degree is flat out wrong.

Any and all implication to the contrary is borne from evil.
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Old 22nd September 2015, 06:25 AM   #77
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Originally Posted by marplots View Post
I think I need a Libertarian/Objectivist to explain this to me. I'm sure it's moral... somehow or other.
Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
No this is the genius of libertarian health care. They realize that a pill being sold for a $13 really has a value much higher than that and move to correct it. They know that they can charge more because they have a monopoly on life saving medication and thus will exploit it. This should be held up as a benefit of our wonderful health care system. Now the hedge funds will have enough money to research other drugs that they can buy and jack up the price on.
Libertarians don't believe in an FDA and often don't even believe in IP, so to them this is just a problem caused by the state.
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Old 22nd September 2015, 06:47 AM   #78
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
Note that the current owner is actively blocking anyone else from making a generic, in part by controlling distribution of the drug so tightly that other companies can't get the samples they need to duplicate it.
I doubt that would work indefinitely if another company was really determined to do it.
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Old 22nd September 2015, 07:04 AM   #79
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Some free market boosters will say that this creates a place in the market for a competitor at a lower price. I think there are enough barriers to entry to make that highly unlikely. The approval process would take years, and we're looking at a drug whose market is so small that no one previously bothered to create a competing generic.

The profit motive for a competitor could only be to set a price much higher than the old price but still lower than the current price. But since the drug was already profitable at a much lower price point, there's nothing keeping the current owner from undercutting that, and if the price raced down through competition, that would quickly make it very not worth the years of work to put the competitor on the market just to get one segment of an already small market.
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Old 22nd September 2015, 07:10 AM   #80
ponderingturtle
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Originally Posted by Cavemonster View Post
Some free market boosters will say that this creates a place in the market for a competitor at a lower price. I think there are enough barriers to entry to make that highly unlikely. The approval process would take years, and we're looking at a drug whose market is so small that no one previously bothered to create a competing generic.

The profit motive for a competitor could only be to set a price much higher than the old price but still lower than the current price. But since the drug was already profitable at a much lower price point, there's nothing keeping the current owner from undercutting that, and if the price raced down through competition, that would quickly make it very not worth the years of work to put the competitor on the market just to get one segment of an already small market.
Which marks the financial genius of this. And with the profits they can research other drugs that have a small enough market that making generics isn't an issue to buy and jack up the price on. That is a winning business model.
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