Bad ideas in military history - Page 5

jimbob · 16th November 2022, 03:15 AM

Originally Posted by Shadowdweller

While I possess some skepticism as to the rigor of its historical authenticity, this account of the Russo-Japanese war (1904-5) is pretty hilarious.

See also this.

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I AGREE

First comment I saw just now when searching for this...

Quote:

Nice to see the modern Russian navy is upholding tradition in Ukraine today.

HansMustermann · 16th November 2022, 10:05 AM

Originally Posted by Shadowdweller

While I possess some skepticism as to the rigor of its historical authenticity, this account of the Russo-Japanese war (1904-5) is pretty hilarious.

Oh, the Baltic Fleet's voyage? Oh yes, it was dumber than you can imagine. You can also check out Drachinifel's account.

Edit: ah, I see jimbob already linked to it.

HansMustermann · 16th November 2022, 10:24 AM

You also have to understand how the tradition of aristocratic officers worked in various parts of the world, though, and more specifically in Russia.

See, in the West, when it was first decided to have some heavy cavalry to use against the Huns, waay back in the later part of the early middle ages, most nobles were perfectly content to conscript some serf, put him on a horse, and call it a day... err... a knight. It took some royal decrees to say, "no, you'll flippin' come here yourself in your best armour". And also some scribes following each army to write down which noble ran away, so it would be a stain on his family for ever. It took about a millenium to forge and cement the culture of the military duty of aristocrats and all.

Well, in England it took a detour into bastard feudalism, i.e., back to paying someone to fight for you. But England had the motivation that you'd get executed if you weren't aggressive enough, so meh, same effect.

And some added various carrots to that stick. Like IIRC Matthias Corvinus of Hungary pretty literally invented WoW's honour points, about half a millennium before WoW was a thing

In Russia that never happened. All the way to the bitter end, they'd just conscript some serf and call him a knight. The nobles were officers usually in name only, and a high ranking posting was just something you got for your ties to the ruling family. Which also meant that nobody was gonna execute some duke's mistress's third cousin's protege for anything short of actual treason.

All the way to WW1 officers had their own dumb ideas and were about as disciplined or easy to coordinate as the proverbial herd of cats, and the more important the noble family, the dumber and unrulier. Like, in the beginning of WW1 one general literally ignored that another was getting obliterated, just because their families didn't get along. (Then without that flank, yeah, he got wiped out too

)

There's a reason why appointing the Grand Duke actually made the Russian army perform better in WW1. No, it wasn't his military genius. It was that nobody outranked HIM in family ties. So if he said ok, you all do what we just discussed, they had better do it.

So yeah, that's the context in which some nobles' relatives found themselves moved from a cushy job in the Baltic their relatives had secured, to having to sail around the world to an actual war

jimbob · 16th November 2022, 11:01 AM

Originally Posted by HansMustermann

You also have to understand how the tradition of aristocratic officers worked in various parts of the world, though, and more specifically in Russia.

See, in the West, when it was first decided to have some heavy cavalry to use against the Huns, waay back in the later part of the early middle ages, most nobles were perfectly content to conscript some serf, put him on a horse, and call it a day... err... a knight. It took some royal decrees to say, "no, you'll flippin' come here yourself in your best armour". And also some scribes following each army to write down which noble ran away, so it would be a stain on his family for ever. It took about a millenium to forge and cement the culture of the military duty of aristocrats and all.

Well, in England it took a detour into bastard feudalism, i.e., back to paying someone to fight for you. But England had the motivation that you'd get executed if you weren't aggressive enough, so meh, same effect.

And some added various carrots to that stick. Like IIRC Matthias Corvinus of Hungary pretty literally invented WoW's honour points, about half a millennium before WoW was a thing

In Russia that never happened. All the way to the bitter end, they'd just conscript some serf and call him a knight. The nobles were officers usually in name only, and a high ranking posting was just something you got for your ties to the ruling family. Which also meant that nobody was gonna execute some duke's mistress's third cousin's protege for anything short of actual treason.

All the way to WW1 officers had their own dumb ideas and were about as disciplined or easy to coordinate as the proverbial herd of cats, and the more important the noble family, the dumber and unrulier. Like, in the beginning of WW1 one general literally ignored that another was getting obliterated, just because their families didn't get along. (Then without that flank, yeah, he got wiped out too

)

There's a reason why appointing the Grand Duke actually made the Russian army perform better in WW1. No, it wasn't his military genius. It was that nobody outranked HIM in family ties. So if he said ok, you all do what we just discussed, they had better do it.

So yeah, that's the context in which some nobles' relatives found themselves moved from a cushy job in the Baltic their relatives had secured, to having to sail around the world to an actual war

Remind me what happened to the regime after deciding to go to war on it's Western border, after the military performed badly?

HansMustermann · 16th November 2022, 11:56 AM

I have no idea what you're talking about

SpitfireIX · 22nd November 2022, 08:23 AM

Originally Posted by jimbob

See also this.

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I AGREE

First comment I saw just now when searching for this...

Drach also has a video guide to the Kamchatka, which he refers to as the most effective Japanese warship that never actually served in the Japanese Navy.

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I AGREE

As for the Russians' carrying on their long tradition of military and naval incompetence, I mentioned in the invasion thread that I like the fact Wikipedia refers to the conflict as the "Russo-Ukrainian War," as it recalls the Russo-Japanese War.

Which reminds me, a couple of months ago a friend of mine told me that the strategy guide for Civilization VI advises anyone playing Russia to avoid getting into wars with Japan or Ukraine.

SpitfireIX · 22nd November 2022, 11:32 AM

Originally Posted by dudalb

I think Custer's entering the Valley of the Little Bighorn without any real recon has got to be up there....

I meant to comment on this a couple of weeks ago, but I was on vacation and my laptop had died.

This mistake was compounded by the fact that Custer had refused an offer to attach an additional battalion of cavalry from another regiment to the 7th. Had Custer had those four companies available during the battle, he might well have been able to retreat in good order, rather than having his own reinforced battalion completely wiped out.

16th November 2022, 10:05 AM	#162
HansMustermann Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 21,377	Originally Posted by Shadowdweller While I possess some skepticism as to the rigor of its historical authenticity, this account of the Russo-Japanese war (1904-5) is pretty hilarious. Oh, the Baltic Fleet's voyage? Oh yes, it was dumber than you can imagine. You can also check out Drachinifel's account. Edit: ah, I see jimbob already linked to it.
	__________________ Which part of "Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn" don't you understand?

16th November 2022, 10:24 AM	#163
HansMustermann Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 21,377	You also have to understand how the tradition of aristocratic officers worked in various parts of the world, though, and more specifically in Russia. See, in the West, when it was first decided to have some heavy cavalry to use against the Huns, waay back in the later part of the early middle ages, most nobles were perfectly content to conscript some serf, put him on a horse, and call it a day... err... a knight. It took some royal decrees to say, "no, you'll flippin' come here yourself in your best armour". And also some scribes following each army to write down which noble ran away, so it would be a stain on his family for ever. It took about a millenium to forge and cement the culture of the military duty of aristocrats and all. Well, in England it took a detour into bastard feudalism, i.e., back to paying someone to fight for you. But England had the motivation that you'd get executed if you weren't aggressive enough, so meh, same effect. And some added various carrots to that stick. Like IIRC Matthias Corvinus of Hungary pretty literally invented WoW's honour points, about half a millennium before WoW was a thing In Russia that never happened. All the way to the bitter end, they'd just conscript some serf and call him a knight. The nobles were officers usually in name only, and a high ranking posting was just something you got for your ties to the ruling family. Which also meant that nobody was gonna execute some duke's mistress's third cousin's protege for anything short of actual treason. All the way to WW1 officers had their own dumb ideas and were about as disciplined or easy to coordinate as the proverbial herd of cats, and the more important the noble family, the dumber and unrulier. Like, in the beginning of WW1 one general literally ignored that another was getting obliterated, just because their families didn't get along. (Then without that flank, yeah, he got wiped out too) There's a reason why appointing the Grand Duke actually made the Russian army perform better in WW1. No, it wasn't his military genius. It was that nobody outranked HIM in family ties. So if he said ok, you all do what we just discussed, they had better do it. So yeah, that's the context in which some nobles' relatives found themselves moved from a cushy job in the Baltic their relatives had secured, to having to sail around the world to an actual war
	__________________ Which part of "Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn" don't you understand? Last edited by HansMustermann; 16th November 2022 at 10:38 AM.

16th November 2022, 11:01 AM	#164
jimbob Uncritical "thinker" Moderator Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: UK Posts: 28,563	Originally Posted by HansMustermann You also have to understand how the tradition of aristocratic officers worked in various parts of the world, though, and more specifically in Russia. See, in the West, when it was first decided to have some heavy cavalry to use against the Huns, waay back in the later part of the early middle ages, most nobles were perfectly content to conscript some serf, put him on a horse, and call it a day... err... a knight. It took some royal decrees to say, "no, you'll flippin' come here yourself in your best armour". And also some scribes following each army to write down which noble ran away, so it would be a stain on his family for ever. It took about a millenium to forge and cement the culture of the military duty of aristocrats and all. Well, in England it took a detour into bastard feudalism, i.e., back to paying someone to fight for you. But England had the motivation that you'd get executed if you weren't aggressive enough, so meh, same effect. And some added various carrots to that stick. Like IIRC Matthias Corvinus of Hungary pretty literally invented WoW's honour points, about half a millennium before WoW was a thing In Russia that never happened. All the way to the bitter end, they'd just conscript some serf and call him a knight. The nobles were officers usually in name only, and a high ranking posting was just something you got for your ties to the ruling family. Which also meant that nobody was gonna execute some duke's mistress's third cousin's protege for anything short of actual treason. All the way to WW1 officers had their own dumb ideas and were about as disciplined or easy to coordinate as the proverbial herd of cats, and the more important the noble family, the dumber and unrulier. Like, in the beginning of WW1 one general literally ignored that another was getting obliterated, just because their families didn't get along. (Then without that flank, yeah, he got wiped out too) There's a reason why appointing the Grand Duke actually made the Russian army perform better in WW1. No, it wasn't his military genius. It was that nobody outranked HIM in family ties. So if he said ok, you all do what we just discussed, they had better do it. So yeah, that's the context in which some nobles' relatives found themselves moved from a cushy job in the Baltic their relatives had secured, to having to sail around the world to an actual war Remind me what happened to the regime after deciding to go to war on it's Western border, after the military performed badly?
	__________________ OECD healthcare spending Public/Compulsory Expenditure on healthcare https://data.oecd.org/chart/60Tt Every year since 1990 the US Public healthcare spending has been greater than the UK as a proportion of GDP. More US Tax goes to healthcare than the UK

16th November 2022, 11:56 AM	#165
HansMustermann Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 21,377	I have no idea what you're talking about
	__________________ Which part of "Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn" don't you understand?

22nd November 2022, 11:32 AM	#167
SpitfireIX Philosopher Join Date: May 2007 Location: Niceville, Florida, USA Posts: 5,732	Originally Posted by dudalb I think Custer's entering the Valley of the Little Bighorn without any real recon has got to be up there.... I meant to comment on this a couple of weeks ago, but I was on vacation and my laptop had died. This mistake was compounded by the fact that Custer had refused an offer to attach an additional battalion of cavalry from another regiment to the 7th. Had Custer had those four companies available during the battle, he might well have been able to retreat in good order, rather than having his own reinforced battalion completely wiped out.
	__________________ "My country, right or wrong; if right, to be kept right; and if wrong, to be set right." --Carl Schurz