Belgian government falls

caveman1917 · 19th December 2018, 02:13 AM

It took us 4 years and its term was going to be up in just a couple of months anyway, but still...mission accomplished, down with the government!

Firestone · 19th December 2018, 06:38 AM

The government has resigned (assuming that the King accepts the resignation).

For all practical purposes, that means that we are stuck with a caretaker government until after the 26/may/19 parliamentary elections.
Given the time that may be needed after the elections to form a new federal government, this Michel caretaker government may well be in power for a year or so.

Mycroft · 19th December 2018, 06:44 AM

Originally Posted by caveman1917

It took us 4 years and its term was going to be up in just a couple of months anyway, but still...mission accomplished, down with the government!

An anarchist cares why?

caveman1917 · 19th December 2018, 06:58 AM

Originally Posted by Firestone

The government has resigned (assuming that the King accepts the resignation).

For all practical purposes, that means that we are stuck with a caretaker government until after the 26/may/19 parliamentary elections.
Given the time that may be needed after the elections to form a new federal government, this Michel caretaker government may well be in power for a year or so.

It means the planned austerity reforms can not be implemented because a caretaker government does not have those powers. Bring out the champagne!

caveman1917 · 19th December 2018, 07:01 AM

Originally Posted by Mycroft

An anarchist cares why?

Are you being serious? Anarchists have opposed the austerity reform programs in the EU since, like, always. For example the planned pension reforms can now not be implemented until at least since the next election, as well as a bunch of other planned reforms which have been stopped.

Firestone · 19th December 2018, 07:13 AM

The main reform that was supposed to be voted on this week in parliament is the reform of unemployment benefits.

One of the conditions of the N-VA (Flemish nationalist party) for supporting the government was that this reform would be implemented.
But this was not the sticking point, as all parties in the coalition had already agreed to the reform.

It may well be, given the budgetary situation and the pressure by employers, that parliament will approve this reform. Not this week, but at the beginning of next year, after some more backroom wheeling and dealing.

caveman1917 · 19th December 2018, 08:04 AM

Originally Posted by Firestone

The main reform that was supposed to be voted on this week in parliament is the reform of unemployment benefits.

One of the conditions of the N-VA (Flemish nationalist party) for supporting the government was that this reform would be implemented.
But this was not the sticking point, as all parties in the coalition had already agreed to the reform.

Well not anymore apparently.

Quote:

It may well be, given the budgetary situation and the pressure by employers, that parliament will approve this reform. Not this week, but at the beginning of next year, after some more backroom wheeling and dealing.

It's unlikely though, a government of running affairs can not introduce new legislation.

Firestone · 19th December 2018, 09:06 AM

Originally Posted by caveman1917

Well not anymore apparently.

It's unlikely though, a government of running affairs can not introduce new legislation.

Parliament is still there, the government can (try to) get agreements on specific measures.
This happened during the 500 (or so) days of the Leterme running affairs government.

To be clear, I'm not saying it will happen, but it is possible.

Michel H · 19th December 2018, 10:35 AM

Originally Posted by caveman1917

It took us 4 years and its term was going to be up in just a couple of months anyway, but still...mission accomplished, down with the government!

You don't seem to be a NV-A voter, caveman... The NV-A (who had lost ground to Vlaams Belang in recent elections) asked Michel to not sign the Marrakesh UN migration deal. He refused, and now he is likely to lose his job as head of a full powers government. I think there is often great contempt for "extreme-right" ideas in Belgium, especially among French-speaking politicians, which is probably related to Nazi crimes, and is perhaps not fully justified.

Firestone · 20th December 2018, 12:12 AM

N-VA plans to introduce in Parliament a number of the measures that were agreed by the coalition before the crisis.

Logically, there should be a majority in Parliament for these measures.
But logic and politics ...

Link in Dutch: https://www.vrt.be/vrtnws/nl/2018/12...arlement-indi/

caveman1917 · 20th December 2018, 02:41 AM

Originally Posted by Michel H

You don't seem to be a NV-A voter, caveman...

Obviously. I generally don't vote, but this time I might vote for these people (they're even looking for candidates, only 10 simple conditions you must fulfill).

Quote:

The NV-A (who had lost ground to Vlaams Belang in recent elections) asked Michel to not sign the Marrakesh UN migration deal. He refused, and now he is likely to lose his job as head of a full powers government.

Not quite, the NV-A had agreed to sign the UN pact but at the last moment changed their mind and started opposing it because they were afraid of losing more of their extreme-right base to VB. So it's not that they were opposed to the pact, they were in favour and only made a U-turn at the last moment.

Quote:

I think there is often great contempt for "extreme-right" ideas in Belgium, especially among French-speaking politicians, which is probably related to Nazi crimes, and is perhaps not fully justified.

There is by far not enough contempt for it in Flanders, but Flanders is a notoriously right-wing and xenophobic region.

Mycroft · 20th December 2018, 12:34 PM

Originally Posted by caveman1917

Are you being serious? Anarchists have opposed the austerity reform programs in the EU since, like, always. For example the planned pension reforms can now not be implemented until at least since the next election, as well as a bunch of other planned reforms which have been stopped.

I though anarchism was anti-government, but in this case they're for larger government? I.E. increased government spending?

caveman1917 · 22nd December 2018, 05:10 AM

Originally Posted by Mycroft

I though anarchism was anti-government, but in this case they're for larger government? I.E. increased government spending?

That question is so misguided I don't even know where to start. Anarchists have always opposed wealth transfers from the working class to the bourgeoisie.

Mycroft · 22nd December 2018, 10:55 AM

Originally Posted by caveman1917

That question is so misguided I don't even know where to start. Anarchists have always opposed wealth transfers from the working class to the bourgeoisie.

It would help if you defined your terms better, and also recognize that very often your use of terms doesn't correspond with common useage.

I'm assuming from context that you see the austerity policy as the "transfer from the working class to the bourgeoisie" anarchists would be against, but what I'm asking is if anarchism is anti-government then it would follow that it should oppose the very idea of government pensions.

caveman1917 · 23rd December 2018, 04:29 AM

Originally Posted by Mycroft

It would help if you defined your terms better, and also recognize that very often your use of terms doesn't correspond with common useage.

I'm assuming from context that you see the austerity policy as the "transfer from the working class to the bourgeoisie" anarchists would be against

Well of course it's a wealth transfer from the working class to the bourgeoisie, the entire goal of the austerity reforms is to finance subsidies and tax breaks for the rich by cutting social services. It's a literal description of the policy, taking wealth from the working class and transferring it to the bourgeoisie.

Quote:

but what I'm asking is if anarchism is anti-government then it would follow that it should oppose the very idea of government pensions.

By your logic they should also oppose the very idea of labour regulation, such as the 8-hour work day, yet it was mostly the anarchists who led the movement for it. Have you considered that anarchists might just not be stupid enough to fall for that "let's cut your pensions and give it all to the bourgeoisie because pensions are gubmint stuff and you're opposed to the gubmint"?

Captain_Swoop · 23rd December 2018, 06:40 AM

Originally Posted by Mycroft

It would help if you defined your terms better, and also recognize that very often your use of terms doesn't correspond with common useage.

I'm assuming from context that you see the austerity policy as the "transfer from the working class to the bourgeoisie" anarchists would be against, but what I'm asking is if anarchism is anti-government then it would follow that it should oppose the very idea of government pensions.

That presupposes that Anarchists have thought anything through and have a rational plan for society.

Belgian thought · 23rd December 2018, 08:31 AM

Maybe they will go and beat their record - "Belgium matched the record for time taken to form a new democratic government after an election, at 353 days"

Anarchy indeed

- plus the fact that the economy experienced good economic growth in that record breaking time.

Early Christmas present perhaps

caveman1917 · 24th January 2019, 05:17 AM

Government: down. Next up: bourgeoisie. Grève générale!

Mycroft · 24th January 2019, 12:50 PM

Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop

That presupposes that Anarchists have thought anything through and have a rational plan for society.

Yeah, I try to give them every benefit of the doubt, but they still refuse to make any sense.

dudalb · 25th January 2019, 03:33 PM

Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop

That presupposes that Anarchists have thought anything through and have a rational plan for society.

Uh, because they don't?
There is a reason why Anarchy is generally made up of small groups of students and academic intelletuals.
They can preach total nonsense without the worry that their theories will actually be put to the acid test of reality.

Roger Ramjets · 29th January 2019, 10:59 PM

Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop

That presupposes that Anarchists have thought anything through and have a rational plan for society.

They have thought it through, and their plan is to have no plan!

3point14 · 30th January 2019, 10:31 AM

Originally Posted by dudalb

Uh, because they don't?
There is a reason why Anarchy is generally made up of small groups of students and academic intelletuals.
They can preach total nonsense without the worry that their theories will actually be put to the acid test of reality.

That was Boris' plan!

dudalb · 30th January 2019, 12:09 PM

Originally Posted by 3point14

That was Boris' plan!

"Be Careful What You Wish For..You Might Actually Get It".

Mycroft · 3rd February 2019, 11:45 AM

Originally Posted by caveman1917

Well of course it's a wealth transfer from the working class to the bourgeoisie, the entire goal of the austerity reforms is to finance subsidies and tax breaks for the rich by cutting social services. It's a literal description of the policy, taking wealth from the working class and transferring it to the bourgeoisie.

In common useage, "bourgeoisie" is middle class. It's only used to represent the class that owns the means of production among marxists.

Originally Posted by caveman1917

By your logic they should also oppose the very idea of labour regulation, such as the 8-hour work day, yet it was mostly the anarchists who led the movement for it. Have you considered that anarchists might just not be stupid enough to fall for that "let's cut your pensions and give it all to the bourgeoisie because pensions are gubmint stuff and you're opposed to the gubmint"?

It's not my logic, it's a reasonable extrapolation of opposing the existence of government. That Anarchists support this one aspect of government while claiming to oppose government as a whole is evidence of irrationality in anarchist docterine.

theprestige · 3rd February 2019, 11:57 AM

Originally Posted by Mycroft

In common useage, "bourgeoisie" is middle class. It's only used to represent the class that owns the means of production among marxists.

It's not my logic, it's a reasonable extrapolation of opposing the existence of government. That Anarchists support this one aspect of government while claiming to oppose government as a whole is evidence of irrationality in anarchist docterine.

Any sufficiently well organized society is indistinguishable from government. Anarchism doesn't seem to understand this.

caveman1917 · 3rd February 2019, 02:13 PM

Originally Posted by Mycroft

It's not my logic, it's a reasonable extrapolation of opposing the existence of government. That Anarchists support this one aspect of government while claiming to oppose government as a whole is evidence of irrationality in anarchist docterine.

Of course not, as you say anarchists oppose government as a whole (such as the boss at work etc) but they don't tend to oppose working class mutualities (such as social security including pensions) - indeed, there's an entire strand of anarchism called mutualism in which social security mutualities find their origin. That some of those mutualities are administrated by government employees changes nothing.

There's nothing irrational about it, just your own ignorance of basic marxist and anarchist philosophy.

19th December 2018, 02:13 AM	#1
caveman1917 Philosopher Join Date: Feb 2015 Posts: 6,086	Belgian government falls It took us 4 years and its term was going to be up in just a couple of months anyway, but still...mission accomplished, down with the government!
caveman1917 Philosopher Join Date: Feb 2015 Posts: 6,086	__________________ "Ideas are also weapons." - Subcomandante Marcos "We must devastate the avenues where the wealthy live." - Lucy Parsons "Let us therefore trust the eternal Spirit which destroys and annihilates only because it is the unfathomable and eternal source of all life. The passion for destruction is a creative passion, too!" - Mikhail Bakunin

19th December 2018, 06:38 AM	#2
Firestone Proud Award Award recipient Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Belgium Posts: 2,068	The government has resigned (assuming that the King accepts the resignation). For all practical purposes, that means that we are stuck with a caretaker government until after the 26/may/19 parliamentary elections. Given the time that may be needed after the elections to form a new federal government, this Michel caretaker government may well be in power for a year or so.
	__________________ The method of science is tried and true. It is not perfect, it's just the best we have. And to abandon it, with its skeptical protocols is the pathway to a dark age. -- Carl Sagan

19th December 2018, 06:44 AM	#3
Mycroft High Priest of Ed Join Date: Sep 2003 Posts: 19,503	Originally Posted by caveman1917 It took us 4 years and its term was going to be up in just a couple of months anyway, but still...mission accomplished, down with the government! An anarchist cares why?
	__________________ Hamilton 68: Tracking Russian internet propaganda

19th December 2018, 06:58 AM	#4
caveman1917 Philosopher Join Date: Feb 2015 Posts: 6,086	Originally Posted by Firestone The government has resigned (assuming that the King accepts the resignation). For all practical purposes, that means that we are stuck with a caretaker government until after the 26/may/19 parliamentary elections. Given the time that may be needed after the elections to form a new federal government, this Michel caretaker government may well be in power for a year or so. It means the planned austerity reforms can not be implemented because a caretaker government does not have those powers. Bring out the champagne!
caveman1917 Philosopher Join Date: Feb 2015 Posts: 6,086	__________________ "Ideas are also weapons." - Subcomandante Marcos "We must devastate the avenues where the wealthy live." - Lucy Parsons "Let us therefore trust the eternal Spirit which destroys and annihilates only because it is the unfathomable and eternal source of all life. The passion for destruction is a creative passion, too!" - Mikhail Bakunin

19th December 2018, 07:01 AM	#5
caveman1917 Philosopher Join Date: Feb 2015 Posts: 6,086	Originally Posted by Mycroft An anarchist cares why? Are you being serious? Anarchists have opposed the austerity reform programs in the EU since, like, always. For example the planned pension reforms can now not be implemented until at least since the next election, as well as a bunch of other planned reforms which have been stopped.
caveman1917 Philosopher Join Date: Feb 2015 Posts: 6,086	__________________ "Ideas are also weapons." - Subcomandante Marcos "We must devastate the avenues where the wealthy live." - Lucy Parsons "Let us therefore trust the eternal Spirit which destroys and annihilates only because it is the unfathomable and eternal source of all life. The passion for destruction is a creative passion, too!" - Mikhail Bakunin

19th December 2018, 07:13 AM	#6
Firestone Proud Award Award recipient Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Belgium Posts: 2,068	The main reform that was supposed to be voted on this week in parliament is the reform of unemployment benefits. One of the conditions of the N-VA (Flemish nationalist party) for supporting the government was that this reform would be implemented. But this was not the sticking point, as all parties in the coalition had already agreed to the reform. It may well be, given the budgetary situation and the pressure by employers, that parliament will approve this reform. Not this week, but at the beginning of next year, after some more backroom wheeling and dealing.
	__________________ The method of science is tried and true. It is not perfect, it's just the best we have. And to abandon it, with its skeptical protocols is the pathway to a dark age. -- Carl Sagan Last edited by Firestone; 19th December 2018 at 07:14 AM.

19th December 2018, 08:04 AM	#7
caveman1917 Philosopher Join Date: Feb 2015 Posts: 6,086	Originally Posted by Firestone The main reform that was supposed to be voted on this week in parliament is the reform of unemployment benefits. One of the conditions of the N-VA (Flemish nationalist party) for supporting the government was that this reform would be implemented. But this was not the sticking point, as all parties in the coalition had already agreed to the reform. Well not anymore apparently. Quote: It may well be, given the budgetary situation and the pressure by employers, that parliament will approve this reform. Not this week, but at the beginning of next year, after some more backroom wheeling and dealing. It's unlikely though, a government of running affairs can not introduce new legislation.
caveman1917 Philosopher Join Date: Feb 2015 Posts: 6,086	__________________ "Ideas are also weapons." - Subcomandante Marcos "We must devastate the avenues where the wealthy live." - Lucy Parsons "Let us therefore trust the eternal Spirit which destroys and annihilates only because it is the unfathomable and eternal source of all life. The passion for destruction is a creative passion, too!" - Mikhail Bakunin

19th December 2018, 09:06 AM	#8
Firestone Proud Award Award recipient Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Belgium Posts: 2,068	Originally Posted by caveman1917 Well not anymore apparently. It's unlikely though, a government of running affairs can not introduce new legislation. Parliament is still there, the government can (try to) get agreements on specific measures. This happened during the 500 (or so) days of the Leterme running affairs government. To be clear, I'm not saying it will happen, but it is possible.
	__________________ The method of science is tried and true. It is not perfect, it's just the best we have. And to abandon it, with its skeptical protocols is the pathway to a dark age. -- Carl Sagan

19th December 2018, 10:35 AM	#9
Michel H Graduate Poster Join Date: May 2012 Location: Belgium Posts: 1,654	Originally Posted by caveman1917 It took us 4 years and its term was going to be up in just a couple of months anyway, but still...mission accomplished, down with the government! You don't seem to be a NV-A voter, caveman... The NV-A (who had lost ground to Vlaams Belang in recent elections) asked Michel to not sign the Marrakesh UN migration deal. He refused, and now he is likely to lose his job as head of a full powers government. I think there is often great contempt for "extreme-right" ideas in Belgium, especially among French-speaking politicians, which is probably related to Nazi crimes, and is perhaps not fully justified.

20th December 2018, 12:12 AM	#10
Firestone Proud Award Award recipient Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Belgium Posts: 2,068	N-VA plans to introduce in Parliament a number of the measures that were agreed by the coalition before the crisis. Logically, there should be a majority in Parliament for these measures. But logic and politics ... Link in Dutch: https://www.vrt.be/vrtnws/nl/2018/12...arlement-indi/
	__________________ The method of science is tried and true. It is not perfect, it's just the best we have. And to abandon it, with its skeptical protocols is the pathway to a dark age. -- Carl Sagan

20th December 2018, 02:41 AM	#11
caveman1917 Philosopher Join Date: Feb 2015 Posts: 6,086	Originally Posted by Michel H You don't seem to be a NV-A voter, caveman... Obviously. I generally don't vote, but this time I might vote for these people (they're even looking for candidates, only 10 simple conditions you must fulfill). Quote: The NV-A (who had lost ground to Vlaams Belang in recent elections) asked Michel to not sign the Marrakesh UN migration deal. He refused, and now he is likely to lose his job as head of a full powers government. Not quite, the NV-A had agreed to sign the UN pact but at the last moment changed their mind and started opposing it because they were afraid of losing more of their extreme-right base to VB. So it's not that they were opposed to the pact, they were in favour and only made a U-turn at the last moment. Quote: I think there is often great contempt for "extreme-right" ideas in Belgium, especially among French-speaking politicians, which is probably related to Nazi crimes, and is perhaps not fully justified. There is by far not enough contempt for it in Flanders, but Flanders is a notoriously right-wing and xenophobic region.
caveman1917 Philosopher Join Date: Feb 2015 Posts: 6,086	__________________ "Ideas are also weapons." - Subcomandante Marcos "We must devastate the avenues where the wealthy live." - Lucy Parsons "Let us therefore trust the eternal Spirit which destroys and annihilates only because it is the unfathomable and eternal source of all life. The passion for destruction is a creative passion, too!" - Mikhail Bakunin

20th December 2018, 12:34 PM	#12
Mycroft High Priest of Ed Join Date: Sep 2003 Posts: 19,503	Originally Posted by caveman1917 Are you being serious? Anarchists have opposed the austerity reform programs in the EU since, like, always. For example the planned pension reforms can now not be implemented until at least since the next election, as well as a bunch of other planned reforms which have been stopped. I though anarchism was anti-government, but in this case they're for larger government? I.E. increased government spending?
	__________________ Hamilton 68: Tracking Russian internet propaganda

22nd December 2018, 05:10 AM	#13
caveman1917 Philosopher Join Date: Feb 2015 Posts: 6,086	Originally Posted by Mycroft I though anarchism was anti-government, but in this case they're for larger government? I.E. increased government spending? That question is so misguided I don't even know where to start. Anarchists have always opposed wealth transfers from the working class to the bourgeoisie.
caveman1917 Philosopher Join Date: Feb 2015 Posts: 6,086	__________________ "Ideas are also weapons." - Subcomandante Marcos "We must devastate the avenues where the wealthy live." - Lucy Parsons "Let us therefore trust the eternal Spirit which destroys and annihilates only because it is the unfathomable and eternal source of all life. The passion for destruction is a creative passion, too!" - Mikhail Bakunin

22nd December 2018, 10:55 AM	#14
Mycroft High Priest of Ed Join Date: Sep 2003 Posts: 19,503	Originally Posted by caveman1917 That question is so misguided I don't even know where to start. Anarchists have always opposed wealth transfers from the working class to the bourgeoisie. It would help if you defined your terms better, and also recognize that very often your use of terms doesn't correspond with common useage. I'm assuming from context that you see the austerity policy as the "transfer from the working class to the bourgeoisie" anarchists would be against, but what I'm asking is if anarchism is anti-government then it would follow that it should oppose the very idea of government pensions.
	__________________ Hamilton 68: Tracking Russian internet propaganda

23rd December 2018, 04:29 AM	#15
caveman1917 Philosopher Join Date: Feb 2015 Posts: 6,086	Originally Posted by Mycroft It would help if you defined your terms better, and also recognize that very often your use of terms doesn't correspond with common useage. I'm assuming from context that you see the austerity policy as the "transfer from the working class to the bourgeoisie" anarchists would be against Well of course it's a wealth transfer from the working class to the bourgeoisie, the entire goal of the austerity reforms is to finance subsidies and tax breaks for the rich by cutting social services. It's a literal description of the policy, taking wealth from the working class and transferring it to the bourgeoisie. Quote: but what I'm asking is if anarchism is anti-government then it would follow that it should oppose the very idea of government pensions. By your logic they should also oppose the very idea of labour regulation, such as the 8-hour work day, yet it was mostly the anarchists who led the movement for it. Have you considered that anarchists might just not be stupid enough to fall for that "let's cut your pensions and give it all to the bourgeoisie because pensions are gubmint stuff and you're opposed to the gubmint"?
caveman1917 Philosopher Join Date: Feb 2015 Posts: 6,086	__________________ "Ideas are also weapons." - Subcomandante Marcos "We must devastate the avenues where the wealthy live." - Lucy Parsons "Let us therefore trust the eternal Spirit which destroys and annihilates only because it is the unfathomable and eternal source of all life. The passion for destruction is a creative passion, too!" - Mikhail Bakunin

23rd December 2018, 06:40 AM	#16
Captain_Swoop Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jun 2010 Posts: 20,259	Originally Posted by Mycroft It would help if you defined your terms better, and also recognize that very often your use of terms doesn't correspond with common useage. I'm assuming from context that you see the austerity policy as the "transfer from the working class to the bourgeoisie" anarchists would be against, but what I'm asking is if anarchism is anti-government then it would follow that it should oppose the very idea of government pensions. That presupposes that Anarchists have thought anything through and have a rational plan for society.

23rd December 2018, 08:31 AM	#17
Belgian thought Master Poster Join Date: May 2004 Posts: 2,139	Maybe they will go and beat their record - "Belgium matched the record for time taken to form a new democratic government after an election, at 353 days" Anarchy indeed - plus the fact that the economy experienced good economic growth in that record breaking time. Early Christmas present perhaps
	__________________ ... er, that's it

24th January 2019, 05:17 AM	#18
caveman1917 Philosopher Join Date: Feb 2015 Posts: 6,086	Government: down. Next up: bourgeoisie. Grève générale!
caveman1917 Philosopher Join Date: Feb 2015 Posts: 6,086	__________________ "Ideas are also weapons." - Subcomandante Marcos "We must devastate the avenues where the wealthy live." - Lucy Parsons "Let us therefore trust the eternal Spirit which destroys and annihilates only because it is the unfathomable and eternal source of all life. The passion for destruction is a creative passion, too!" - Mikhail Bakunin

24th January 2019, 12:50 PM	#19
Mycroft High Priest of Ed Join Date: Sep 2003 Posts: 19,503	Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop That presupposes that Anarchists have thought anything through and have a rational plan for society. Yeah, I try to give them every benefit of the doubt, but they still refuse to make any sense.
	__________________ Hamilton 68: Tracking Russian internet propaganda

25th January 2019, 03:33 PM	#20
dudalb Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Sacramento Posts: 43,751	Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop That presupposes that Anarchists have thought anything through and have a rational plan for society. Uh, because they don't? There is a reason why Anarchy is generally made up of small groups of students and academic intelletuals. They can preach total nonsense without the worry that their theories will actually be put to the acid test of reality.
	__________________ Pacifism is a shifty doctrine under which a man accepts the benefits of the social group without being willing to pay - and claims a halo for his dishonesty. Robert Heinlein. Last edited by dudalb; 25th January 2019 at 03:34 PM.

29th January 2019, 10:59 PM	#21
Roger Ramjets Illuminator Join Date: Jun 2008 Posts: 3,982	Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop That presupposes that Anarchists have thought anything through and have a rational plan for society. They have thought it through, and their plan is to have no plan!
	__________________ We don't want good, sound arguments. We want arguments that sound good.

30th January 2019, 10:31 AM	#22
3point14 Pi Join Date: Nov 2005 Posts: 17,448	Originally Posted by dudalb Uh, because they don't? There is a reason why Anarchy is generally made up of small groups of students and academic intelletuals. They can preach total nonsense without the worry that their theories will actually be put to the acid test of reality. That was Boris' plan!
3point14 Pi Join Date: Nov 2005 Posts: 17,448	__________________ Up the River! Anyone that wraps themselves in the Union Flag and also lives in tax exile is a [redacted]

30th January 2019, 12:09 PM	#23
dudalb Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Sacramento Posts: 43,751	Originally Posted by 3point14 That was Boris' plan! "Be Careful What You Wish For..You Might Actually Get It".
	__________________ Pacifism is a shifty doctrine under which a man accepts the benefits of the social group without being willing to pay - and claims a halo for his dishonesty. Robert Heinlein.

3rd February 2019, 11:45 AM	#24
Mycroft High Priest of Ed Join Date: Sep 2003 Posts: 19,503	Originally Posted by caveman1917 Well of course it's a wealth transfer from the working class to the bourgeoisie, the entire goal of the austerity reforms is to finance subsidies and tax breaks for the rich by cutting social services. It's a literal description of the policy, taking wealth from the working class and transferring it to the bourgeoisie. In common useage, "bourgeoisie" is middle class. It's only used to represent the class that owns the means of production among marxists. Originally Posted by caveman1917 By your logic they should also oppose the very idea of labour regulation, such as the 8-hour work day, yet it was mostly the anarchists who led the movement for it. Have you considered that anarchists might just not be stupid enough to fall for that "let's cut your pensions and give it all to the bourgeoisie because pensions are gubmint stuff and you're opposed to the gubmint"? It's not my logic, it's a reasonable extrapolation of opposing the existence of government. That Anarchists support this one aspect of government while claiming to oppose government as a whole is evidence of irrationality in anarchist docterine.
	__________________ Hamilton 68: Tracking Russian internet propaganda

3rd February 2019, 11:57 AM	#25
theprestige Penultimate Amazing TLA Winner Join Date: Aug 2007 Posts: 33,933	Originally Posted by Mycroft In common useage, "bourgeoisie" is middle class. It's only used to represent the class that owns the means of production among marxists. It's not my logic, it's a reasonable extrapolation of opposing the existence of government. That Anarchists support this one aspect of government while claiming to oppose government as a whole is evidence of irrationality in anarchist docterine. Any sufficiently well organized society is indistinguishable from government. Anarchism doesn't seem to understand this.

3rd February 2019, 02:13 PM	#26
caveman1917 Philosopher Join Date: Feb 2015 Posts: 6,086	Originally Posted by Mycroft It's not my logic, it's a reasonable extrapolation of opposing the existence of government. That Anarchists support this one aspect of government while claiming to oppose government as a whole is evidence of irrationality in anarchist docterine. Of course not, as you say anarchists oppose government as a whole (such as the boss at work etc) but they don't tend to oppose working class mutualities (such as social security including pensions) - indeed, there's an entire strand of anarchism called mutualism in which social security mutualities find their origin. That some of those mutualities are administrated by government employees changes nothing. There's nothing irrational about it, just your own ignorance of basic marxist and anarchist philosophy.
caveman1917 Philosopher Join Date: Feb 2015 Posts: 6,086	__________________ "Ideas are also weapons." - Subcomandante Marcos "We must devastate the avenues where the wealthy live." - Lucy Parsons "Let us therefore trust the eternal Spirit which destroys and annihilates only because it is the unfathomable and eternal source of all life. The passion for destruction is a creative passion, too!" - Mikhail Bakunin