Mueller Investigation pt4 - Page 104

Belz... · 11th February 2019, 05:57 AM

Originally Posted by BobTheCoward

If you aspired to loftier things, you would have a reputation as someone who has cared about justice reform here.

You don't seem to have that.

Get in line behind the people who have cared regardless who has been the target.

Ouch.

Fast Eddie B · 11th February 2019, 06:39 AM

Originally Posted by Crossbow

I find it best to be wary of individuals who speak of themselves in the third person.

Fast Eddie B agrees wholeheartedly!

(Somebody had to do it - it might as well be him!)

carlitos · 11th February 2019, 07:42 AM

This could be a coincidence, or Mueller could have some hot stuff on tap this month.

Mueller asked Congress to postpone Michael Cohen's testimony until Feb 28, and Maria Buttina's sentencing hearing has been put off from Feb 12 until Feb 26.

Squeegee Beckenheim · 11th February 2019, 08:45 AM

It's being reported that long-time Deripaska associate Len Blavatnik donated $7m to Republican PACs between 2015 and 2017, including $3.5m to one associated with McConnell

Reminder: McConnell pushed for an end to sanctions on 3 companies tied to Deripaska, and Senate Republicans did end them.

Belz... · 11th February 2019, 08:48 AM

Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim

It's being reported that long-time Deripaska associate Len Blavatnik donated $7m to Republican PACs between 2015 and 2017, including $3.5m to one associated with McConnell

Reminder: McConnell pushed for an end to sanctions on 3 companies tied to Deripaska, and Senate Republicans did end them.

I said it: the man is a traitor. They should bring back hanging for those.

I wonder how far back this goes for McConnell. Might explain his actions under Obama, too.

BobTheCoward · 11th February 2019, 08:57 AM

Originally Posted by Belz...

I said it: the man is a traitor. They should bring back hanging for those.

I wonder how far back this goes for McConnell. Might explain his actions under Obama, too.

It is traitorous that a US citizen is donating to a PAC?

Belz... · 11th February 2019, 09:03 AM

Originally Posted by BobTheCoward

It is traitorous that a US citizen is donating to a PAC?

Me: <punches Bob in the face>
Bob: Why the hell did you punch me? That's assault!
Me: Is it assault to stretch one's arm forward?

BobTheCoward · 11th February 2019, 09:05 AM

Originally Posted by Belz...

Me: <punches Bob in the face>
Bob: Why the hell did you punch me? That's assault!
Me: Is it assault to stretch one's arm forward?

What is the traitorous part of the article?

Segnosaur · 11th February 2019, 09:08 AM

Originally Posted by BobTheCoward

It is traitorous that a US citizen is donating to a PAC?

Its a bit more complex than that.

Blavatnick may be a U.S. citizen, but:
- He had significant dealings with foreign business interests
- McConnell's actions in the senate helped some of those foreign business interests

So while there may have been an American citizen as an intermediary, it looks like McConnell took what amounted to a bribe financed by foreign interests

There is certainly more there than whatever Trump and the republicans are claiming when it comes to the Clinton/Uranium1 connection.

Belz... · 11th February 2019, 09:16 AM

Originally Posted by BobTheCoward

What is the traitorous part of the article?

You must be mistaken. I didn't call the article a trator.

BobTheCoward · 11th February 2019, 09:29 AM

Originally Posted by Segnosaur

Its a bit more complex than that.

Blavatnick may be a U.S. citizen, but:
- He had significant dealings with foreign business interests
- McConnell's actions in the senate helped some of those foreign business interests

So while there may have been an American citizen as an intermediary, it looks like McConnell took what amounted to a bribe financed by foreign interests

There is certainly more there than whatever Trump and the republicans are claiming when it comes to the Clinton/Uranium1 connection.

Some US citizens have foreign interests they would like the federal government to address. There is a magnitsky act because an American was friends with magnitsky. Is bill browder a traitor?

autumn1971 · 11th February 2019, 09:58 AM

Originally Posted by BobTheCoward

Some US citizens have foreign interests they would like the federal government to address. There is a magnitsky act because an American was friends with magnitsky. Is bill browder a traitor?

“There’s good people on both sides.”

Segnosaur · 11th February 2019, 10:00 AM

Originally Posted by BobTheCoward

Some US citizens have foreign interests they would like the federal government to address.

A private citizen wanting the government to address a particular issue is not a problem (even if that issue involves foreign interests).

The problem arises when that issue:

1- Gets more attention than it would normally get because of secondary issues (e.g. the politician is friends with the person wanting action, or in this case the person has contributed money to their re-election.)

2- results in actions that are detrimental to the country as a whole (or at least the citizens the politician represents), even if they do benefit the citizen asking for assistance. This is the case here. (Russians interfered with the American election process, and McConnell is taking actions that will embolden them to do so again, by removing punishments for those who had a part last time. And one of the beneficiaries of his action is someone who donated to his campaign.)

Quote:

There is a magnitsky act because an American was friends with magnitsky. Is bill browder a traitor?

Did Browder donate money specifically to get politicians elected that would be favorable to passing the Magnitsky act or similar legislation? No. (Putin did claim that he donated to Clinton's campaign, but that claim has been found to be false by Politifact.)

Is the implementation of the Magnitsky act harmful to the U.S.? No, in fact laws that prevent corruption are beneficial to the country (and the global economy) as a whole.

So no, totally different than the type of election payments to support McConnell's campaign, when McConnell is taking action to harm the U.S. election process.

The Great Zaganza · 11th February 2019, 10:45 AM

McConnell has no excuse whatsoever, since he has been a member of the Gang of Eight for bloody forever - he knows exactly what Russia is doing in the US, or could every easily find out.
Traitor is the correct description, since Russia is clearly waging a kind of war against the West.

BobTheCoward · 11th February 2019, 12:50 PM

Originally Posted by Segnosaur

Is the implementation of the Magnitsky act harmful to the U.S.? No, in fact laws that prevent corruption are beneficial to the country (and the global economy) as a whole.

So no, totally different than the type of election payments to support McConnell's campaign, when McConnell is taking action to harm the U.S. election process.

I'm unconvinced by this, but you shouldn't worry about that.

BobTheCoward · 11th February 2019, 12:57 PM

Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza

McConnell has no excuse whatsoever, since he has been a member of the Gang of Eight for bloody forever - he knows exactly what Russia is doing in the US, or could every easily find out.
Traitor is the correct description, since Russia is clearly waging a kind of war against the West.

How do you know he doesn't think it is good for the US?

Segnosaur · 11th February 2019, 01:13 PM

Originally Posted by BobTheCoward

How do you know he doesn't think it is good for the US?

Whether he personally thinks that its "good for the U.S." to be a puppet state of Russia is irrelevant. It would still make him a traitor to go against U.S. law (which much of this might be) in order to accomplish the goal. After all, I don't think the defense "I think its best if democracy to be subverted" is really a good argument to make.

And if he really thought it was a good idea? Then why is he not trying to bring about a change in the laws? (If he really thought it was good for the U.S. he could co-author the "Make Putin the president of the U.S." bill.) Instead, he's trying to skirt around the law and subverting it.

The Great Zaganza · 11th February 2019, 01:58 PM

Originally Posted by BobTheCoward

How do you know he doesn't think it is good for the US?

Following the law comes before personal considerations for good or bad.

BobTheCoward · 11th February 2019, 03:18 PM

Originally Posted by Segnosaur

Whether he personally thinks that its "good for the U.S." to be a puppet state of Russia is irrelevant. It would still make him a traitor to go against U.S. law (which much of this might be) in order to accomplish the goal. After all, I don't think the defense "I think its best if democracy to be subverted" is really a good argument to make.

And if he really thought it was a good idea? Then why is he not trying to bring about a change in the laws? (If he really thought it was good for the U.S. he could co-author the "Make Putin the president of the U.S." bill.) Instead, he's trying to skirt around the law and subverting it.

Did we read the same article? I didn't see anything about the law there.

Segnosaur · 11th February 2019, 04:04 PM

Originally Posted by carlitos

This could be a coincidence, or Mueller could have some hot stuff on tap this month.

Mueller asked Congress to postpone Michael Cohen's testimony until Feb 28, and Maria Buttina's sentencing hearing has been put off from Feb 12 until Feb 26.

Looks like Cohen's testimony could be delayed indefinitely due to medical reasons.

From: https://www.reuters.com/article/us-u...-idUSKCN1Q02F8
Testimony by U.S. President Donald Trump’s former lawyer Michael Cohen planned for Tuesday before the Senate Intelligence Committee has been postponed due to a recent medical procedure...

Segnosaur · 11th February 2019, 04:07 PM

Originally Posted by BobTheCoward

Quote:

Whether he personally thinks that its "good for the U.S." to be a puppet state of Russia is irrelevant. It would still make him a traitor to go against U.S. law (which much of this might be) in order to accomplish the goal. After all, I don't think the defense "I think its best if democracy to be subverted" is really a good argument to make.

And if he really thought it was a good idea? Then why is he not trying to bring about a change in the laws? (If he really thought it was good for the U.S. he could co-author the "Make Putin the president of the U.S." bill.) Instead, he's trying to skirt around the law and subverting it.

Did we read the same article? I didn't see anything about the law there.

Not sure what your point is.

Zanganza brought up the issue of Russian interference in American elections (which is against the law). You stated "How do you know he doesn't think it is good for the US?". Sounded to me like you were suggesting McConnell thought intereference shouldn't be illegal.

Stacko · 11th February 2019, 04:55 PM

Originally Posted by Belz...

I said it: the man is a traitor. They should bring back hanging for those.

I wonder how far back this goes for McConnell. Might explain his actions under Obama, too.

McConnell is a power hungry anti-democracy crusader desiring a one party state. I think they realized his goals lines up with theirs.

BobTheCoward · 11th February 2019, 04:55 PM

Originally Posted by Segnosaur

Not sure what your point is.

Zanganza brought up the issue of Russian interference in American elections (which is against the law). You stated "How do you know he doesn't think it is good for the US?". Sounded to me like you were suggesting McConnell thought intereference shouldn't be illegal.

I thought the implication was that McConnell did something illegal.

applecorped · 12th February 2019, 10:57 AM

Senate has uncovered no direct evidence of conspiracy between Trump campaign and Russia
"We were never going to find a contract signed in blood saying, 'Hey Vlad, we're going to collude,'" one Democratic aide said.

Squeegee Beckenheim · 12th February 2019, 11:05 AM

https://twitter.com/NatashaBertrand/...58723806191617

Quote:

Senate Intelligence Committee aide tells me, re: NBC story, that right now there is "a common set of facts" that the panel is working with, "and a disagreement about what those facts mean."
They add: "We are closer to the end than the beginning, but we're not wrapping up."

Re: the headline, "Senate has uncovered no direct evidence of conspiracy between Trump campaign and Russia," same aide says: "the word 'direct' is doing a lot of work here."

Squeegee Beckenheim · 12th February 2019, 11:06 AM

https://twitter.com/Mark_Buchanan_/s...63746137100290

Quote:

“Circumstantial evidence is not only sufficient, but may also be more certain, satisfying and persuasive than direct evidence.” Rogers v. Missouri Pacific R. Co., 352 U.S. 500, 508, n. 17, 77 S.Ct. 443, 1 L.Ed.2d 493 (1957).

smartcooky · 12th February 2019, 11:31 AM

Originally Posted by The Big Dog

TBD is Actually criticizing Mueller and their propaganda stooges cnn, which goes way beyond the alleged minor process violations Stone was charged.

I've been browsing through the US Code, trying to understand how lying under oath and witness tampering are "minor process violations"

The truthfulness of witnesses in testimony is at the core of a civilised society's judicial system; when a witness lies, or encourages other witnesses to lie, it strikes at the very core of that justice system.

Witness tampering and lying under oath are serious crimes, not "minor process violations".

Segnosaur · 12th February 2019, 11:34 AM

Originally Posted by BobTheCoward

Quote:

Not sure what your point is.

Zanganza brought up the issue of Russian interference in American elections (which is against the law). You stated "How do you know he doesn't think it is good for the US?". Sounded to me like you were suggesting McConnell thought intereference shouldn't be illegal.

I thought the implication was that McConnell did something illegal.

And its quite possible he did. (At least in my non-legal expert opinion.)

For example, if he did in fact end sanctions in exchange for campaign contributions that would probably be considered bribery.

And while its not illegal for American citizens to donate to political causes, its illegal to do so at the direction of foreign entities. That would be considered a campaign finance violation, and if McConnell had knowledge and assisted the transaction he might be considered a co-conspirator.

smartcooky · 12th February 2019, 11:38 AM

Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim

It's being reported that long-time Deripaska associate Len Blavatnik donated $7m to Republican PACs between 2015 and 2017, including $3.5m to one associated with McConnell

Reminder: McConnell pushed for an end to sanctions on 3 companies tied to Deripaska, and Senate Republicans did end them.

It could also explain why McConnell been so deferential to Der Trumpenführer... they are in thing thing together.

Mitch McGruppenführer

Belz... · 12th February 2019, 11:43 AM

Originally Posted by applecorped

Senate has uncovered no direct evidence of conspiracy between Trump campaign and Russia

Are you really surprised that the people on the same team as Trump "found" nothing to kick him out of the team over?

smartcooky · 12th February 2019, 11:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by applecorped
Senate has uncovered no direct evidence of conspiracy between Trump campaign and Russia

Originally Posted by Belz...

Are you really surprised that the people on the same team as Trump "found" nothing to kick him out of the team over?

Do turkeys vote for Christmas?

The Great Zaganza · 12th February 2019, 11:50 AM

This Buzzfeed article clearly outlines how Trump ran his campaign in order to please Putin to get his Trump Tower Moscow, funding included.
https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article...en-sater-putin

There can be no doubt that Trump first and foremost had his business in mind, not US interests.
It's a typical case of Russia promising great rewards for cooperation, rewards that never materialize. It's standard spycraft.

smartcooky · 12th February 2019, 12:12 PM

Worth reading; how the media have failed to inform people about how the criminal justice system really works

https://twitter.com/SethAbramson/sta...55251371196416

No attorney with criminal law experience came into the Trump-Russia probe believing one of the conspirators would confess to Congress or that an explicit contract would be found. That absurd standard was set by non-attorney Trump supporters and was then *adopted by the media*.

There may be confessions in the Russia probe before it's over, but they will come *via Mueller's charges/deals*, not Congress—and no explicit contract for a conspiracy like this would ever be created, let alone found. We knew all this two years ago. The media pretended not to.

The journalists who misreported what Burr said to CBS and what it meant and how evidence works and the fact that most American criminal trials are in fact dominated by circumstantial or indirect evidence should be thoroughly ashamed of themselves. Rest assured, they are *not*.

The percent of U.S. criminal cases in which one finds a contract agreeing to commit a crime is *virtually zero*. Confessions are *common*—and are *exactly* what Mueller has been getting, behind closed doors, from people like Flynn, Gates, Papadopoulos, Nader, and many others.

The Big Dog · 12th February 2019, 12:22 PM

Originally Posted by smartcooky

Worth reading; how the media have failed to inform people about how the criminal justice system really works

https://twitter.com/SethAbramson/sta...55251371196416

No attorney with criminal law experience came into the Trump-Russia probe believing one of the conspirators would confess to Congress or that an explicit contract would be found. That absurd standard was set by non-attorney Trump supporters and was then *adopted by the media*.

There may be confessions in the Russia probe before it's over, but they will come *via Mueller's charges/deals*, not Congress—and no explicit contract for a conspiracy like this would ever be created, let alone found. We knew all this two years ago. The media pretended not to.

The journalists who misreported what Burr said to CBS and what it meant and how evidence works and the fact that most American criminal trials are in fact dominated by circumstantial or indirect evidence should be thoroughly ashamed of themselves. Rest assured, they are *not*.

The percent of U.S. criminal cases in which one finds a contract agreeing to commit a crime is *virtually zero*. Confessions are *common*—and are *exactly* what Mueller has been getting, behind closed doors, from people like Flynn, Gates, Papadopoulos, Nader, and many others.

He cites no one who has literally ever said that. A "contract"? Is he really claiming that someone asserted that if there is no direct contract there is no direct evidence. That is profoundly specious and idiotic strawman the likes of which I cannot believe anymore. Why do people believe this grifter???

WilliamSeger · 12th February 2019, 12:25 PM

Originally Posted by smartcooky

I've been browsing through the US Code, trying to understand how lying under oath and witness tampering are "minor process violations"

The truthfulness of witnesses in testimony is at the core of a civilised society's judicial system; when a witness lies, or encourages other witnesses to lie, it strikes at the very core of that justice system.

Witness tampering and lying under oath are serious crimes, not "minor process violations".

If Mueller gets to the bottom of why so many people told so many lies, I bet it won't be "minor."

applecorped · 12th February 2019, 12:27 PM

Say it with me people, Trump 2020!

Cavemonster · 12th February 2019, 12:28 PM

Originally Posted by The Big Dog

He cites no one who has literally ever said that. A "contract"? Is he really claiming that someone asserted that if there is no direct contract there is no direct evidence. That is profoundly specious and idiotic strawman the likes of which I cannot believe anymore. Why do people believe this grifter???

I thought this month it was "cow farts". Did you get the pages stuck together?

applecorped · 12th February 2019, 12:29 PM

Grifter........... the new racist dog whistle?

Coming to a snowflake near you

The Man · 12th February 2019, 12:56 PM

Originally Posted by applecorped

Senate has uncovered no direct evidence of conspiracy between Trump campaign and Russia
"We were never going to find a contract signed in blood saying, 'Hey Vlad, we're going to collude,'" one Democratic aide said.

As would normally be the expectation. However, given the propensity for some of these people to speak, even publicly, directly to intent, when best left unsaid. Doesn't bode well for what was said privately and potentially recorded or documented. Even if I were amongst them I doubt I could speak in such absolutes given the apparent inability of some of the people to just shut the heck up about their intents when needed. Also given the potential of the Trump tower deal pursuit, a contract signed in something or other may have been an end goal, so also a potential topic of discussion documentation.

ETA: Case in point the recorded conversation between Trump and Cohen about using the other guy for payments. Using a cutout is always a good idea. Having a detailed conversation about using that cutout and their criticality, not such a great idea.

a_unique_person · 12th February 2019, 01:30 PM

Originally Posted by applecorped

Grifter........... the new racist dog whistle?

Coming to a snowflake near you

Trump University. Trump steaks. Trump inauguration fraud. Trump casino. Trump is a grifter.

11th February 2019, 05:57 AM	#4121
Belz... Fiend God Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: In the details Posts: 81,364	Originally Posted by BobTheCoward If you aspired to loftier things, you would have a reputation as someone who has cared about justice reform here. You don't seem to have that. Get in line behind the people who have cared regardless who has been the target. Ouch.
	__________________ Master of the Shining Darkness "My views are nonsense. So what?" - BobTheCoward

11th February 2019, 06:39 AM	#4122
Fast Eddie B Philosopher Join Date: Sep 2010 Location: Mineral Bluff, GA Posts: 5,574	Originally Posted by Crossbow I find it best to be wary of individuals who speak of themselves in the third person. Fast Eddie B agrees wholeheartedly! (Somebody had to do it - it might as well be him!)
	__________________ “I do solemnly swear (or affirm) that...I will to the best of my ability, preserve, protect and defend the Constitution of the United States.” - President Donald J. Trump, January 20, 2017. "And it's, frankly, disgusting the way the press is able to write whatever they want to write. And people should look into it." - President Donald J. Trump, October 11, 2017. Last edited by Fast Eddie B; 11th February 2019 at 06:44 AM.

11th February 2019, 07:42 AM	#4123
carlitos "más divertido" Join Date: Jul 2009 Posts: 19,878	This could be a coincidence, or Mueller could have some hot stuff on tap this month. Mueller asked Congress to postpone Michael Cohen's testimony until Feb 28, and Maria Buttina's sentencing hearing has been put off from Feb 12 until Feb 26.
	Last edited by carlitos; 11th February 2019 at 07:44 AM.

11th February 2019, 08:45 AM	#4124
Squeegee Beckenheim Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Dec 2010 Posts: 24,123	It's being reported that long-time Deripaska associate Len Blavatnik donated $7m to Republican PACs between 2015 and 2017, including $3.5m to one associated with McConnell Reminder: McConnell pushed for an end to sanctions on 3 companies tied to Deripaska, and Senate Republicans did end them.
	__________________ I don't trust atoms. They make up everything. Last edited by Squeegee Beckenheim; 11th February 2019 at 08:46 AM.

11th February 2019, 08:48 AM	#4125
Belz... Fiend God Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: In the details Posts: 81,364	Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim It's being reported that long-time Deripaska associate Len Blavatnik donated $7m to Republican PACs between 2015 and 2017, including $3.5m to one associated with McConnell Reminder: McConnell pushed for an end to sanctions on 3 companies tied to Deripaska, and Senate Republicans did end them. I said it: the man is a traitor. They should bring back hanging for those. I wonder how far back this goes for McConnell. Might explain his actions under Obama, too.
	__________________ Master of the Shining Darkness "My views are nonsense. So what?" - BobTheCoward Last edited by Belz...; 11th February 2019 at 08:50 AM.

11th February 2019, 08:57 AM	#4126
BobTheCoward Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Nov 2010 Posts: 16,601	Originally Posted by Belz... I said it: the man is a traitor. They should bring back hanging for those. I wonder how far back this goes for McConnell. Might explain his actions under Obama, too. It is traitorous that a US citizen is donating to a PAC?

11th February 2019, 09:03 AM	#4127
Belz... Fiend God Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: In the details Posts: 81,364	Originally Posted by BobTheCoward It is traitorous that a US citizen is donating to a PAC? Me: <punches Bob in the face> Bob: Why the hell did you punch me? That's assault! Me: Is it assault to stretch one's arm forward?
	__________________ Master of the Shining Darkness "My views are nonsense. So what?" - BobTheCoward

11th February 2019, 09:05 AM	#4128
BobTheCoward Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Nov 2010 Posts: 16,601	Originally Posted by Belz... Me: <punches Bob in the face> Bob: Why the hell did you punch me? That's assault! Me: Is it assault to stretch one's arm forward? What is the traitorous part of the article?

11th February 2019, 09:08 AM	#4129
Segnosaur Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jan 2002 Posts: 12,889	Originally Posted by BobTheCoward It is traitorous that a US citizen is donating to a PAC? Its a bit more complex than that. Blavatnick may be a U.S. citizen, but: - He had significant dealings with foreign business interests - McConnell's actions in the senate helped some of those foreign business interests So while there may have been an American citizen as an intermediary, it looks like McConnell took what amounted to a bribe financed by foreign interests There is certainly more there than whatever Trump and the republicans are claiming when it comes to the Clinton/Uranium1 connection.
	__________________ Trust me, I know what I'm doing. - Sledgehammer I'm Mary Poppin's Y'all! - Yondu We are Groot - Groot

11th February 2019, 09:16 AM	#4130
Belz... Fiend God Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: In the details Posts: 81,364	Originally Posted by BobTheCoward What is the traitorous part of the article? You must be mistaken. I didn't call the article a trator.
	__________________ Master of the Shining Darkness "My views are nonsense. So what?" - BobTheCoward

11th February 2019, 09:29 AM	#4131
BobTheCoward Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Nov 2010 Posts: 16,601	Originally Posted by Segnosaur Its a bit more complex than that. Blavatnick may be a U.S. citizen, but: - He had significant dealings with foreign business interests - McConnell's actions in the senate helped some of those foreign business interests So while there may have been an American citizen as an intermediary, it looks like McConnell took what amounted to a bribe financed by foreign interests There is certainly more there than whatever Trump and the republicans are claiming when it comes to the Clinton/Uranium1 connection. Some US citizens have foreign interests they would like the federal government to address. There is a magnitsky act because an American was friends with magnitsky. Is bill browder a traitor?
	Last edited by BobTheCoward; 11th February 2019 at 09:31 AM.

11th February 2019, 09:58 AM	#4132
autumn1971 Master Poster Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 2,718	Originally Posted by BobTheCoward Some US citizens have foreign interests they would like the federal government to address. There is a magnitsky act because an American was friends with magnitsky. Is bill browder a traitor? “There’s good people on both sides.”
	__________________ 'A knave; a rascal; an eater of broken meats; a base, proud, shallow, beggardly, three-suited, hundred-pound, filthy, worsted-stocking knave; a lily-livered, action-taking knave, a whoreson, glass-gazing, superservicable, finical rogue;... the son and heir of a mongral bitch: one whom I will beat into clamorous whining, if thou deniest the least syllable of thy addition."' -The Bard

11th February 2019, 10:00 AM	#4133
Segnosaur Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jan 2002 Posts: 12,889	Originally Posted by BobTheCoward Some US citizens have foreign interests they would like the federal government to address. A private citizen wanting the government to address a particular issue is not a problem (even if that issue involves foreign interests). The problem arises when that issue: 1- Gets more attention than it would normally get because of secondary issues (e.g. the politician is friends with the person wanting action, or in this case the person has contributed money to their re-election.) 2- results in actions that are detrimental to the country as a whole (or at least the citizens the politician represents), even if they do benefit the citizen asking for assistance. This is the case here. (Russians interfered with the American election process, and McConnell is taking actions that will embolden them to do so again, by removing punishments for those who had a part last time. And one of the beneficiaries of his action is someone who donated to his campaign.) Quote: There is a magnitsky act because an American was friends with magnitsky. Is bill browder a traitor? Did Browder donate money specifically to get politicians elected that would be favorable to passing the Magnitsky act or similar legislation? No. (Putin did claim that he donated to Clinton's campaign, but that claim has been found to be false by Politifact.) Is the implementation of the Magnitsky act harmful to the U.S.? No, in fact laws that prevent corruption are beneficial to the country (and the global economy) as a whole. So no, totally different than the type of election payments to support McConnell's campaign, when McConnell is taking action to harm the U.S. election process.
	__________________ Trust me, I know what I'm doing. - Sledgehammer I'm Mary Poppin's Y'all! - Yondu We are Groot - Groot

11th February 2019, 10:45 AM	#4134
The Great Zaganza Maledictorian Join Date: Aug 2016 Posts: 7,889	McConnell has no excuse whatsoever, since he has been a member of the Gang of Eight for bloody forever - he knows exactly what Russia is doing in the US, or could every easily find out. Traitor is the correct description, since Russia is clearly waging a kind of war against the West.
	__________________ Opinion is divided on the subject. All the others say it is; I say it isn’t.

11th February 2019, 12:50 PM	#4135
BobTheCoward Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Nov 2010 Posts: 16,601	Originally Posted by Segnosaur Is the implementation of the Magnitsky act harmful to the U.S.? No, in fact laws that prevent corruption are beneficial to the country (and the global economy) as a whole. So no, totally different than the type of election payments to support McConnell's campaign, when McConnell is taking action to harm the U.S. election process. I'm unconvinced by this, but you shouldn't worry about that.

11th February 2019, 12:57 PM	#4136
BobTheCoward Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Nov 2010 Posts: 16,601	Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza McConnell has no excuse whatsoever, since he has been a member of the Gang of Eight for bloody forever - he knows exactly what Russia is doing in the US, or could every easily find out. Traitor is the correct description, since Russia is clearly waging a kind of war against the West. How do you know he doesn't think it is good for the US?

11th February 2019, 01:13 PM	#4137
Segnosaur Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jan 2002 Posts: 12,889	Originally Posted by BobTheCoward How do you know he doesn't think it is good for the US? Whether he personally thinks that its "good for the U.S." to be a puppet state of Russia is irrelevant. It would still make him a traitor to go against U.S. law (which much of this might be) in order to accomplish the goal. After all, I don't think the defense "I think its best if democracy to be subverted" is really a good argument to make. And if he really thought it was a good idea? Then why is he not trying to bring about a change in the laws? (If he really thought it was good for the U.S. he could co-author the "Make Putin the president of the U.S." bill.) Instead, he's trying to skirt around the law and subverting it.
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11th February 2019, 01:58 PM	#4138
The Great Zaganza Maledictorian Join Date: Aug 2016 Posts: 7,889	Originally Posted by BobTheCoward How do you know he doesn't think it is good for the US? Following the law comes before personal considerations for good or bad.
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11th February 2019, 03:18 PM	#4139
BobTheCoward Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Nov 2010 Posts: 16,601	Originally Posted by Segnosaur Whether he personally thinks that its "good for the U.S." to be a puppet state of Russia is irrelevant. It would still make him a traitor to go against U.S. law (which much of this might be) in order to accomplish the goal. After all, I don't think the defense "I think its best if democracy to be subverted" is really a good argument to make. And if he really thought it was a good idea? Then why is he not trying to bring about a change in the laws? (If he really thought it was good for the U.S. he could co-author the "Make Putin the president of the U.S." bill.) Instead, he's trying to skirt around the law and subverting it. Did we read the same article? I didn't see anything about the law there.

11th February 2019, 04:04 PM	#4140
Segnosaur Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jan 2002 Posts: 12,889	Originally Posted by carlitos This could be a coincidence, or Mueller could have some hot stuff on tap this month. Mueller asked Congress to postpone Michael Cohen's testimony until Feb 28, and Maria Buttina's sentencing hearing has been put off from Feb 12 until Feb 26. Looks like Cohen's testimony could be delayed indefinitely due to medical reasons. From: https://www.reuters.com/article/us-u...-idUSKCN1Q02F8 Testimony by U.S. President Donald Trump’s former lawyer Michael Cohen planned for Tuesday before the Senate Intelligence Committee has been postponed due to a recent medical procedure...
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11th February 2019, 04:07 PM	#4141
Segnosaur Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jan 2002 Posts: 12,889	Originally Posted by BobTheCoward Quote: Whether he personally thinks that its "good for the U.S." to be a puppet state of Russia is irrelevant. It would still make him a traitor to go against U.S. law (which much of this might be) in order to accomplish the goal. After all, I don't think the defense "I think its best if democracy to be subverted" is really a good argument to make. And if he really thought it was a good idea? Then why is he not trying to bring about a change in the laws? (If he really thought it was good for the U.S. he could co-author the "Make Putin the president of the U.S." bill.) Instead, he's trying to skirt around the law and subverting it. Did we read the same article? I didn't see anything about the law there. Not sure what your point is. Zanganza brought up the issue of Russian interference in American elections (which is against the law). You stated "How do you know he doesn't think it is good for the US?". Sounded to me like you were suggesting McConnell thought intereference shouldn't be illegal.
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11th February 2019, 04:55 PM	#4142
Stacko Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Sep 2007 Posts: 10,824	Originally Posted by Belz... I said it: the man is a traitor. They should bring back hanging for those. I wonder how far back this goes for McConnell. Might explain his actions under Obama, too. McConnell is a power hungry anti-democracy crusader desiring a one party state. I think they realized his goals lines up with theirs.

11th February 2019, 04:55 PM	#4143
BobTheCoward Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Nov 2010 Posts: 16,601	Originally Posted by Segnosaur Not sure what your point is. Zanganza brought up the issue of Russian interference in American elections (which is against the law). You stated "How do you know he doesn't think it is good for the US?". Sounded to me like you were suggesting McConnell thought intereference shouldn't be illegal. I thought the implication was that McConnell did something illegal.

12th February 2019, 10:57 AM	#4144
applecorped Rotten to the Core Join Date: Mar 2008 Posts: 19,287	Senate has uncovered no direct evidence of conspiracy between Trump campaign and Russia "We were never going to find a contract signed in blood saying, 'Hey Vlad, we're going to collude,'" one Democratic aide said.
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12th February 2019, 11:05 AM	#4145
Squeegee Beckenheim Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Dec 2010 Posts: 24,123	https://twitter.com/NatashaBertrand/...58723806191617 Quote: Senate Intelligence Committee aide tells me, re: NBC story, that right now there is "a common set of facts" that the panel is working with, "and a disagreement about what those facts mean." They add: "We are closer to the end than the beginning, but we're not wrapping up." Re: the headline, "Senate has uncovered no direct evidence of conspiracy between Trump campaign and Russia," same aide says: "the word 'direct' is doing a lot of work here."
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12th February 2019, 11:06 AM	#4146
Squeegee Beckenheim Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Dec 2010 Posts: 24,123	https://twitter.com/Mark_Buchanan_/s...63746137100290 Quote: “Circumstantial evidence is not only sufficient, but may also be more certain, satisfying and persuasive than direct evidence.” Rogers v. Missouri Pacific R. Co., 352 U.S. 500, 508, n. 17, 77 S.Ct. 443, 1 L.Ed.2d 493 (1957).
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12th February 2019, 11:31 AM	#4147
smartcooky Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Oct 2012 Location: Nelson, New Zealand Posts: 11,326	Originally Posted by The Big Dog TBD is Actually criticizing Mueller and their propaganda stooges cnn, which goes way beyond the alleged minor process violations Stone was charged. I've been browsing through the US Code, trying to understand how lying under oath and witness tampering are "minor process violations" The truthfulness of witnesses in testimony is at the core of a civilised society's judicial system; when a witness lies, or encourages other witnesses to lie, it strikes at the very core of that justice system. Witness tampering and lying under oath are serious crimes, not "minor process violations".
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12th February 2019, 11:34 AM	#4148
Segnosaur Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jan 2002 Posts: 12,889	Originally Posted by BobTheCoward Quote: Not sure what your point is. Zanganza brought up the issue of Russian interference in American elections (which is against the law). You stated "How do you know he doesn't think it is good for the US?". Sounded to me like you were suggesting McConnell thought intereference shouldn't be illegal. I thought the implication was that McConnell did something illegal. And its quite possible he did. (At least in my non-legal expert opinion.) For example, if he did in fact end sanctions in exchange for campaign contributions that would probably be considered bribery. And while its not illegal for American citizens to donate to political causes, its illegal to do so at the direction of foreign entities. That would be considered a campaign finance violation, and if McConnell had knowledge and assisted the transaction he might be considered a co-conspirator.
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12th February 2019, 11:38 AM	#4149
smartcooky Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Oct 2012 Location: Nelson, New Zealand Posts: 11,326	Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim It's being reported that long-time Deripaska associate Len Blavatnik donated $7m to Republican PACs between 2015 and 2017, including $3.5m to one associated with McConnell Reminder: McConnell pushed for an end to sanctions on 3 companies tied to Deripaska, and Senate Republicans did end them. It could also explain why McConnell been so deferential to Der Trumpenführer... they are in thing thing together. Mitch McGruppenführer
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12th February 2019, 11:43 AM	#4150
Belz... Fiend God Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: In the details Posts: 81,364	Originally Posted by applecorped Senate has uncovered no direct evidence of conspiracy between Trump campaign and Russia Are you really surprised that the people on the same team as Trump "found" nothing to kick him out of the team over?
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12th February 2019, 11:49 AM	#4151
smartcooky Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Oct 2012 Location: Nelson, New Zealand Posts: 11,326	Quote: Originally Posted by applecorped Senate has uncovered no direct evidence of conspiracy between Trump campaign and Russia Originally Posted by Belz... Are you really surprised that the people on the same team as Trump "found" nothing to kick him out of the team over? Do turkeys vote for Christmas?
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12th February 2019, 11:50 AM	#4152
The Great Zaganza Maledictorian Join Date: Aug 2016 Posts: 7,889	This Buzzfeed article clearly outlines how Trump ran his campaign in order to please Putin to get his Trump Tower Moscow, funding included. https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article...en-sater-putin There can be no doubt that Trump first and foremost had his business in mind, not US interests. It's a typical case of Russia promising great rewards for cooperation, rewards that never materialize. It's standard spycraft.
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12th February 2019, 12:12 PM	#4153
smartcooky Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Oct 2012 Location: Nelson, New Zealand Posts: 11,326	Worth reading; how the media have failed to inform people about how the criminal justice system really works https://twitter.com/SethAbramson/sta...55251371196416 No attorney with criminal law experience came into the Trump-Russia probe believing one of the conspirators would confess to Congress or that an explicit contract would be found. That absurd standard was set by non-attorney Trump supporters and was then adopted by the media. There may be confessions in the Russia probe before it's over, but they will come via Mueller's charges/deals, not Congress—and no explicit contract for a conspiracy like this would ever be created, let alone found. We knew all this two years ago. The media pretended not to. The journalists who misreported what Burr said to CBS and what it meant and how evidence works and the fact that most American criminal trials are in fact dominated by circumstantial or indirect evidence should be thoroughly ashamed of themselves. Rest assured, they are not. The percent of U.S. criminal cases in which one finds a contract agreeing to commit a crime is virtually zero. Confessions are common—and are exactly what Mueller has been getting, behind closed doors, from people like Flynn, Gates, Papadopoulos, Nader, and many others.
	__________________ #THEYAREUS The Mueller Report must be released to Congress in full - If Trump has nothing to hide, then he should also have nothing to fear!

12th February 2019, 12:22 PM	#4154
The Big Dog Guest Join Date: Jul 2007 Posts: 29,742	Originally Posted by smartcooky Worth reading; how the media have failed to inform people about how the criminal justice system really works https://twitter.com/SethAbramson/sta...55251371196416 No attorney with criminal law experience came into the Trump-Russia probe believing one of the conspirators would confess to Congress or that an explicit contract would be found. That absurd standard was set by non-attorney Trump supporters and was then adopted by the media. There may be confessions in the Russia probe before it's over, but they will come via Mueller's charges/deals, not Congress—and no explicit contract for a conspiracy like this would ever be created, let alone found. We knew all this two years ago. The media pretended not to. The journalists who misreported what Burr said to CBS and what it meant and how evidence works and the fact that most American criminal trials are in fact dominated by circumstantial or indirect evidence should be thoroughly ashamed of themselves. Rest assured, they are not. The percent of U.S. criminal cases in which one finds a contract agreeing to commit a crime is virtually zero. Confessions are common—and are exactly what Mueller has been getting, behind closed doors, from people like Flynn, Gates, Papadopoulos, Nader, and many others. He cites no one who has literally ever said that. A "contract"? Is he really claiming that someone asserted that if there is no direct contract there is no direct evidence. That is profoundly specious and idiotic strawman the likes of which I cannot believe anymore. Why do people believe this grifter???
The Big Dog Guest Join Date: Jul 2007 Posts: 29,742

12th February 2019, 12:25 PM	#4155
WilliamSeger Illuminator Join Date: Nov 2006 Posts: 4,535	Originally Posted by smartcooky I've been browsing through the US Code, trying to understand how lying under oath and witness tampering are "minor process violations" The truthfulness of witnesses in testimony is at the core of a civilised society's judicial system; when a witness lies, or encourages other witnesses to lie, it strikes at the very core of that justice system. Witness tampering and lying under oath are serious crimes, not "minor process violations". If Mueller gets to the bottom of why so many people told so many lies, I bet it won't be "minor."
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