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Tags Venezuela incidents , Venezuela issues , Venezuela politics

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Old 11th February 2019, 11:24 AM   #681
8enotto
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Anyone in Venezuela care to give a report of how life is for Juan Publico and family?

Watching small powerful men in Ivory towers posture is not interesting anymore.
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Old 11th February 2019, 11:29 AM   #682
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Originally Posted by Metullus View Post
I suspect that this video was made to give any invading Cub Scouts a false sense of security...
Don't be silly. We would never deploy Cub Scouts. We wait until they become Boy Scouts. Furthermore, we require that all Scouts earn their Totin' Chip before they can have a combat role.
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Old 11th February 2019, 12:01 PM   #683
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Do you think this is what they believe, in their minds? "Hey, I want to exploit people and destroy the planet"?
Bitter fact is, although they won't say so in so many words, a number of progressives think that making a profit is evil in and of itself.
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Old 11th February 2019, 06:21 PM   #684
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Do you think this is what they believe, in their minds? "Hey, I want to exploit people and destroy the planet"?
A lot of them, yes. My father worked in hazardous waste disposal, quasi-illegally storing it in the ground in areas of rural Mississippi. "It's just a bunch of poor people. Who cares?" was his attitude. He loathed the EPA, he loathed minimum wage laws, etc.

What amounts to Social Darwinism is not that uncommon among the powerful.
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Old 11th February 2019, 06:22 PM   #685
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
Bitter fact is, although they won't say so in so many words, a number of progressives think that making a profit is evil in and of itself.
Zero progressives think that. Not even the most hard-core, traditional Marxists think that.
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Old 11th February 2019, 06:35 PM   #686
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Do you think this is what they believe, in their minds? "Hey, I want to exploit people and destroy the planet"?
Also, here's an example of how they like exploiting people's ignorance for their own gain:

https://www.nytimes.com/1985/07/19/o...e-deficit.html

From July, 1985:

Quote:
To hear Larry Speakes tell it, President Reagan emerged from anesthesia righteously demanding action on the budget deficit ''this week.'' That sounds fine - except that it now appears that the deficit was deliberately created by Mr. Reagan in order to do away with Democratic social programs dating back to the New Deal.

Who says so? David Stockman, the departing Budget Director, at second hand, and Friedrich von Hayek directly. He's the Nobel Prize-winning economist who's been a guru of Reaganomics
.

Quote:
Reagan thinks it is impossible to persuade Congress that expenditures must be reduced unless one creates deficits so large that absolutely everyone becomes convinced that no more money can be spent.''

Thus, the economist said, Mr. Reagan ''hopes to persuade Congress of the necessity of spending reductions by means of an immense deficit.
They do this over and over and over again...they blow up the deficit with tax cuts and military spending, and then bank on people being too stupid to know what they did, and thus fall for the "we have to cut social programs like social security now, or face certain doom" gambit. And it generally works.

And that's the Heritage Foundation crowd:
https://www.washingtonpost.com/archi...=.99271e54d64c
Quote:
That is one reason the Heritage Foundation has brought Hayek to America. Hayek, as a favorite of conservatives from Irving Kristol to William Buckley, has spent a lifetime in opposition to Keynes; to the notion that government deficits and inflation cure unemployment; to the idea that value-free science can build a new world; and to socialism, the progressive income tax, affirmative action, the minimum wage, psychiatrists who hope to free us from psyches rooted in good and evil and the notion that central planning can improve our lives.
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Last edited by kellyb; 11th February 2019 at 06:41 PM.
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Old 11th February 2019, 06:40 PM   #687
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I always believe my trusty CIA mockingbird media propaganda.

America, **** yeah!
Comin' again to save the motherfuckin' day, yeah

Socialism is bad! Gassed his own people! Russia! China! Gillette!

The one thing we absolutely must not do is let Venezuelans run their country.
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Old 11th February 2019, 06:40 PM   #688
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Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
A lot of them, yes. My father worked in hazardous waste disposal, quasi-illegally storing it in the ground in areas of rural Mississippi. "It's just a bunch of poor people. Who cares?" was his attitude.
"Was his attitude" or "he actually said this"?
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Old 11th February 2019, 06:42 PM   #689
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
"Was his attitude" or "he actually said this"?
He literally said that about it being "just a bunch of poor people" getting poisoned.
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Old 11th February 2019, 06:52 PM   #690
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Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
A My father worked in hazardous waste disposal, quasi-illegally storing it in the ground in areas of rural Mississippi.
You are insinuating a crime was committed against those people, without thinking through the fact you did not even bother to warn anyone they were going to be poisoned to death or whatever.

Except you said "quasi-illegal", which isn't a category of law or regulation. Which makes it fiction.
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Old 11th February 2019, 10:42 PM   #691
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Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
Zero progressives think that. Not even the most hard-core, traditional Marxists think that.
The most hard-core, traditional Marxists thought that Leon Trotsky needed killing.
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Old 11th February 2019, 10:46 PM   #692
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Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
He literally said that about it being "just a bunch of poor people" getting poisoned.
Of course he did. Some Internet rando says that their father says exactly the one thing that proves the rando's claim. What are the odds?

Better question: Do you have anything better than the crap you're piling on your dead father's memory, to support your claim?
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Old 11th February 2019, 10:48 PM   #693
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Originally Posted by AlaskaBushPilot View Post
You are insinuating a crime was committed against those people, without thinking through the fact you did not even bother to warn anyone they were going to be poisoned to death or whatever.



Except you said "quasi-illegal", which isn't a category of law or regulation. Which makes it fiction.
I'm pretty sure "quasi-illegal" translates to "perfectly legal, but I hate my daddy for other reasons".
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Old 11th February 2019, 11:15 PM   #694
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Of course he did. Some Internet rando says that their father says exactly the one thing that proves the rando's claim. What are the odds?

Better question: Do you have anything better than the crap you're piling on your dead father's memory, to support your claim?
Belz asked me a question about what I believed, and I answered, and explained part of why. The people who profit off poisoning the ground and water and oppose the EPA do indeed feel like the environment should be theirs to exploit.

My father is not dead, by the way.
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Old 11th February 2019, 11:21 PM   #695
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
I'm pretty sure "quasi-illegal" translates to "perfectly legal, but I hate my daddy for other reasons".
It means I grew hearing him rehearsing the phrase "I do not recall" in the living room, preparing for the court battle he was involved in over the fact that the water supply was laden with toxic waste as a result of his company's actions. But he never went to jail.
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Old 11th February 2019, 11:23 PM   #696
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
The most hard-core, traditional Marxists thought that Leon Trotsky needed killing.
What does that have to do with the false claim that a lot of "progressives think that making a profit is evil in and of itself"?
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Old 12th February 2019, 03:16 AM   #697
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Red Cross, UN Slam ‘Politicised’ USAID Humanitarian Assistance to Venezuela

So when the corporate rags whine about Venezuela not letting "aid" in, what they mean is that they aren't letting the personnel of the typically cynically-named "USAID" organization in.
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Old 12th February 2019, 03:26 AM   #698
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Originally Posted by 8enotto View Post
Anyone in Venezuela care to give a report of how life is for Juan Publico and family?

Watching small powerful men in Ivory towers posture is not interesting anymore.

Here's one.

Originally Posted by Paul Dobson
[...] But, given grandiose claims of parallel governments, social upheaval, and a new start for Venezuela being repeated across the MSM, one of the key questions that everyone is asking is: What's going on within Venezuela itself?

The answer, however, is not much. [...]
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Old 12th February 2019, 06:11 AM   #699
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Here's another one, quite detailed and interesting. But be warned: It's written by "a Russian" (i.e. Putin).

Originally Posted by Georgy Zotov
The following morning, no one at the hotel wants to look at my dollars. The hotel employee tells me to go to one of the official “exchange stores” but honestly adds: “only Americans, or complete jerks go there.”
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Old 12th February 2019, 06:27 AM   #700
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Checking some old threads I found this which might be a quite timely study:

Originally Posted by Childlike Empress, late 2017 View Post
Free 230 pages eBook, endorsed by Maduro himself (pdf, 5.4 Mb): The Visible Hand of the Market - Economic Warfare in Venezuela by Pasqualina Curcio Curcio
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Old 12th February 2019, 08:22 AM   #701
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Do you think this is what they believe, in their minds? "Hey, I want to exploit people and destroy the planet"?
What else are we to think? Have you read the examples provided in the previous posts? Nicaragua etc.?

The fact that sociopaths are overrepresented in positions of power is quite easily demonstrated by looking at History, I would think.
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Old 12th February 2019, 08:32 AM   #702
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Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
He literally said that about it being "just a bunch of poor people" getting poisoned.
Ok that's one.
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Old 12th February 2019, 08:35 AM   #703
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Originally Posted by Abooga View Post
What else are we to think? Have you read the examples provided in the previous posts? Nicaragua etc.?

The fact that sociopaths are overrepresented in positions of power is quite easily demonstrated by looking at History, I would think.
I don't know. They seem pretty common elsewhere as well.

Anyway, the discussion started because Kellyb doubted a report because of its source, but so far the reason of her doubt seems to be an ad hominem. She's also a bit all over the place, jumping from those who produced or published the report to "taxation is theft" conservatives to her father, etc. Frankly I don't know what her anecdotes are supposed to prove.
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Old 12th February 2019, 08:50 AM   #704
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Frankly I don't know what her anecdotes are supposed to prove.
The only takeaway I can figure out is that her family is horrible. Not sure what relevance that's supposed to have, but I'm willing to accept the assertion.
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Old 12th February 2019, 09:04 AM   #705
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
I don't know. They seem pretty common elsewhere as well.

Anyway, the discussion started because Kellyb doubted a report because of its source, but so far the reason of her doubt seems to be an ad hominem. She's also a bit all over the place, jumping from those who produced or published the report to "taxation is theft" conservatives to her father, etc. Frankly I don't know what her anecdotes are supposed to prove.
I´d say it started when you argued out of incredulity and said "Do you think this is what they believe, in their minds? "Hey, I want to exploit people and destroy the planet"?" as in, "hey, they might look like sociopathic murderers, but come on, they surely had the best intentions in mind..."

And now you say the opposite and say that murderous sociopathic behaviours are pretty common elsewhere too...

So what is it? You don´t believe these really serious accusations towards the CIA and the US government are true or do you just think they are normal and "anybody would have done the same thing"?
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Old 12th February 2019, 09:09 AM   #706
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
The only takeaway I can figure out is that her family is horrible. Not sure what relevance that's supposed to have, but I'm willing to accept the assertion.
Enh. As a social nicety, maybe. But remember that these are rhetorical anecdotes. Kellyb is telling a story about a horrible family to prove a point. But on the Internet, nobody knows you're a dog.
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Old 12th February 2019, 09:11 AM   #707
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Originally Posted by Abooga View Post
I´d say it started when you argued out of incredulity
Since when is asking someone to clarify and support their statements an argument from incredulity???

Quote:
And now you say the opposite and say that murderous sociopathic behaviours are pretty common elsewhere too...
Why are you adding that? That wasn't part of what I was originally answering. That's quite disingenuous.

Quote:
So what is it?
The two are not mutually-exclusive. That sociopaths are found everywhere doesn't support the idea that a particular group of people is essentially a club for sociopaths on the back of a single anecdote.

Quote:
You don´t believe these really serious accusations towards the CIA and the US government are true or do you just think they are normal and "anybody would have done the same thing"?
What in the blue hell are you talking about?
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Old 12th February 2019, 09:45 AM   #708
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Originally Posted by Childlike Empress View Post
Really? Did he sit at the table with Willy Wimmer? Pics or it didn't happen.
I don't know what table Blumenthal was at, but on twitter he has proudly talked about being there, and there is video of him participating on a panel at the event. After he returned he immediately became a propagandist for Assad's atrocities against the people of Syria.
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Old 12th February 2019, 09:52 AM   #709
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Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
Pretty sure anyone who disagrees with US foreign policy when it comes to regime change ops will get called a Kremlin agent now.
It's just how the cold war/red scare 2.0 works.
FWIW, Blumenthal was always against US military action in Syria. I think CNN going full on "incubator babies" again with the Bana al-Abed interview just clued him in to the "proxy war with Russia" aspect of the horrors unfolding in Syria. Reporting on geopolitical conflict in a factually correct way is not something "which supports murderous and psychopathic dictators."
Blumenthal said in his interview with "The Real News" that the US' top priority should be fighting Sunni jihadis. Incidentally, that is also how he classifies every Syrian group that opposes Assad. He is not opposed to military action in Syria, he is simply on the side and wants that action to be for the other side. Being a propagandist for murderous dictators is not reporting things in a factually correct way.
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Old 12th February 2019, 10:30 AM   #710
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Originally Posted by Abooga View Post
And now you say the opposite and say that murderous sociopathic behaviours are pretty common elsewhere too...
Sociopathy is pretty common everywhere, but thankfully most sociopaths are not murderous.
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Old 12th February 2019, 10:37 AM   #711
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post

Anyway, the discussion started because Kellyb doubted a report because of its source, but so far the reason of her doubt seems to be an ad hominem.
What makes you agree with the Heritage Foundation's perspective that Norway is less "free" than Bahrain, because Norway has a social safety net, and that's bad?

What makes you agree with the idea that social security = less freedom?
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Old 12th February 2019, 10:44 AM   #712
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Originally Posted by Wayward son View Post
Blumenthal said in his interview with "The Real News" that the US' top priority should be fighting Sunni jihadis. Incidentally, that is also how he classifies every Syrian group that opposes Assad.
Evidence?

He's been on TRN several times, and only mentions Sunni jihadis once, and doesn't mention them anywhere here:
https://therealnews.com/stories/mblumenthal1004syria
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Old 12th February 2019, 10:50 AM   #713
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
That sociopaths are found everywhere doesn't support the idea that a particular group of people is essentially a club for sociopaths on the back of a single anecdote.
I didn't just give a single anecdote, (or phrase it as "a club for sociopaths").

Will you respond to this?

http://www.internationalskeptics.com...&postcount=686
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Old 12th February 2019, 10:59 AM   #714
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Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
What makes you agree with the Heritage Foundation's perspective that Norway is less "free" than Bahrain, because Norway has a social safety net, and that's bad?

What makes you agree with the idea that social security = less freedom?
I'm really struggling to understand how you came to the conclusion that I actually agree with them. I guess you think I'm either with them or against them, or something.

Maybe take a step back and understand my original point: do you, or do you not, understand their perspective? As I said right off the bat, you don't have to agree with it to understand it.

Quote:
I didn't just give a single anecdote, (or phrase it as "a club for sociopaths").
No, that was my phrasing, obviously. I didn't put quotation marks there so it should've been pretty evident, also the "essentially".

Quote:
Will you respond to this?
Why would I? It doesn't support your claim in any way.
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Old 12th February 2019, 11:19 AM   #715
kellyb
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
I'm really struggling to understand how you came to the conclusion that I actually agree with them. I guess you think I'm either with them or against them, or something.

Maybe take a step back and understand my original point: do you, or do you not, understand their perspective? As I said right off the bat, you don't have to agree with it to understand it.
I do understand it. They think social security, environmental regulation, and labor rights are antithetical to "freedom".

Do you actually disagree with that assessment of their concept of freedom, that "laissez faire" is freedom?

Quote:
Why would I? It doesn't support your claim in any way.
How is it not an example of them exploiting people's ignorance for their own gain?
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Last edited by kellyb; 12th February 2019 at 11:21 AM.
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Old 12th February 2019, 11:22 AM   #716
Wayward son
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Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
Evidence?

He's been on TRN several times, and only mentions Sunni jihadis once, and doesn't mention them anywhere here:
https://therealnews.com/stories/mblumenthal1004syria
"The national security state has completely abrogated what should be its top mission, which is to take on these Sunni jihadist organizations which have repeatedly attacked soft targets in the West and caused chaos. They should be fighting them. Instead, they’re using them as proxies in many cases to bleed Russia and Iran, and Syria as well, countries which have really no intention to attack the United States, and which are active in the fight against ISIS."
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Old 12th February 2019, 11:24 AM   #717
kellyb
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Originally Posted by Wayward son View Post
"The national security state has completely abrogated what should be its top mission, which is to take on these Sunni jihadist organizations which have repeatedly attacked soft targets in the West and caused chaos. They should be fighting them. Instead, they’re using them as proxies in many cases to bleed Russia and Iran, and Syria as well, countries which have really no intention to attack the United States, and which are active in the fight against ISIS."
That was the "only mentions Sunni jihadis once" I referred to.

It does not back up the claim that "that is also how he classifies every Syrian group that opposes Assad."
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Old 12th February 2019, 11:30 AM   #718
dudalb
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Originally Posted by Wayward son View Post
"The national security state has completely abrogated what should be its top mission, which is to take on these Sunni jihadist organizations which have repeatedly attacked soft targets in the West and caused chaos. They should be fighting them. Instead, they’re using them as proxies in many cases to bleed Russia and Iran, and Syria as well, countries which have really no intention to attack the United States, and which are active in the fight against ISIS."
A good example of a "Progressive" who will support ruthless dictators just so long as they are Anti Western.
I think his opposition to the "Jihadis" is not so much they are religious fanantics but that they are opposed to the regimes he loves so much.
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Old 12th February 2019, 11:33 AM   #719
dudalb
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More on Max Blumenthal:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Max_Blumenthal

Yup, a Putin shill.
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Old 12th February 2019, 11:34 AM   #720
kellyb
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
A good example of a "Progressive" who will support ruthless dictators just so long as they are Anti Western.
I think his opposition to the "Jihadis" is not so much they are religious fanantics but that they are opposed to the regimes he loves so much.
You know you're talking about the journalist who wrote this, right?
https://www.thenation.com/article/we...end-massacres/
Quote:
None of the dozens of adults I interviewed in the camp would allow me to report their full names or photograph their faces. If they return to Syria with the regime of President Bashar al-Assad still intact, they fear brutal recriminations. Many have already survived torture, escaped from prisons or defected from Assad’s army. “With all the bloodshed, the killing of people who did not even join the resistance, Bashar only wanted to teach us one lesson: That we are completely weak and he is our god,” a woman from Dara’a in her early 60s told me. “His goal is to demolish our spirit so we will never rise up again.” The woman’s sons had spent four months under sustained torture for defecting to the Free Syrian Army. She does not know where they are now, only that they are back in the field, battling Assad’s forces in a grinding stalemate that has taken somewhere around 100,000 lives.
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