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#161 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 41,923
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A huge increase in oil prices will do that to a country whose primary product is oil. Chavez can't really claim credit for that. And it has since dropped considerably.
Moreover, in any sensibly run country a soaring GDP would allow considerable infrastructure development, or at least maintenance. Venezuela's infrastructure is falling apart. They can't even keep the oil flowing. The country with the biggest proven reserves in the world, and their production is falling. How pathetic is that? |
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"As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law |
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#162 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 41,923
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The statistics aren't made up (at least not by him). I can find multiple sources for it, such as:
https://data.worldbank.org/indicator...D?locations=VE It's the implication being drawn from the statistic, not the statistic itself, which is nonsense. Chavez was very, very bad for Venezuela's economy. |
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"As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law |
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#163 |
Rotten to the Core
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 18,883
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Chavez still has fans here I see.
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All You Need Is Love. |
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#164 |
Graduate Poster
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 1,608
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...Forever shall the wolf in me desire the sheep in you...
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#165 |
Graduate Poster
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 1,608
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Obviously one should be careful with such implications, but we also find other statistics in favour of improvements (absolute poverty, employment, schooling etc.). Considering the fact that the oil reserves are not a new phenomenon, one can only wonder how utterly pathetic the economic figures were even before Chavez. Yet of course, the common implication made here seems to be he made it far worse (not in evidence). But sure, a state like Norway would have managed the given rescources and economy far better.
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...Forever shall the wolf in me desire the sheep in you...
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#166 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 41,923
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And the Titanic's voyage was doing great for about 4 days.
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"As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law |
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#167 |
Graduate Poster
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 1,608
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So you think the statistics are wrong?
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...Forever shall the wolf in me desire the sheep in you...
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#168 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 6,491
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That is the principle whenever right-wingers criticize Chavez and Maduro: They can't take credit for the way they improved people's lives because that was all due to the increase in the price of oil. However, when oil prices drop, Chavez, Maduro and socialism are to blame, not the price of oil. They should have handed over all the money earned from oil to the rich people - the same way their predecessors did. Then poor Venezuelans wouldn't have gotten used to regular meals in the first place, and Ziggurat, the prestige et al would have blamed the starvation of poor Venezuelans on the oil prices ... |
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/dann "Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht "The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx |
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#169 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 6,491
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/dann "Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht "The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx |
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#170 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 31,691
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#171 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 41,923
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A short-term improvement followed by catastrophy isn't a good thing. Overall, people's lives haven't been improved. They've been ruined.
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And the drop in price isn't the cause of the drop in output.
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"As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law |
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#172 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 41,923
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"As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law |
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#173 |
imperfecto del subjuntivo
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: stranded at Buenos Aires, a city that, like NYC or Paris, has so little to offer...
Posts: 9,432
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They mostly travel hitch-hiking. The problem is lorry drivers currently are no longer lending a hand because their insurances warn them about the lack of cover in the event of an accident, so they have to walk some distances, mainly from the main routes to the town centres where they can beg in the streets.
Besides poor people is very caring and sympathetic in these lands. And don't think many of the migrants won't nick what they need. I'm at the end of their trail. If I were at some point of their route I would certainly contribute to the olla popular (big communal pot) some good souls would have organized for them. It's common in my country when there are protest or charitable rallies that cover up to 4,000 km on foot. I don't have any relation with Facebook or Twitter or anything like that, but there are probably charitable initiatives there (I'm not going to stoop to facebook my life in order to learn about them). |
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Horrible dipsomaniacs and other addicts, be gone and get treated, or covfefe your soul!These fora are full of scientists and specialists. Most of them turn back to pumpkins the second they log out. I got tired of the actual schizophrenics that are taking hold part of the forum and decided to do something about it. |
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#174 | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
imperfecto del subjuntivo
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: stranded at Buenos Aires, a city that, like NYC or Paris, has so little to offer...
Posts: 9,432
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Someone who propagates gossip isn't a gossip? The statistics from World Bank accepted without revision what the Venezuelan government told them. And that poster accepted those statistics without further investigation as they quench his/her epistemological hedonism.
It's all exactly like here 5 or 7 years ago with our government then, kindred spirits of Chavists: prices went up 10% per year (according to the government) and salaries went up 30% a year. The problem was that goods went up 30 to 35% in the supermarket during the same year. If we are to look to less twisted statistics, we have to look at IMF's, who audits a bit all national figures and sieves the thickest crap. According to them, the GDP per capita went from 4120 u$d in 1999 to 7870 u$s in 2013. But that doesn't mean anything because it depended on an artificial foreign currency exchange rate with specific prohibitions to trade and invest. The only real truth is in the economic growth, and that reality isn't so easy to hide. Here are the figures of real GDP growth, population growth and gdp per capita ppp growth during Chávez, according to the always vigilant IMF
So, it didn't tripled but just grew 14.5% in 15 years (less than 1% a year, a typical European speed). And that taking into account that the IMF couldn't filter all the crap of the official statistics. The awful truth is that Venezuela became a zero-sum economy and this pseudo-"socialism" just impoverished the middle classes to give some release to the working poor and everything to the non-working poor, looking for their support, hiding all this smelling pile of manure behind the smoke screen of a mythical class struggle as, in the end, the stupid inside and abroad will buy the red flags and red t-shirts as something real. |
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Horrible dipsomaniacs and other addicts, be gone and get treated, or covfefe your soul!These fora are full of scientists and specialists. Most of them turn back to pumpkins the second they log out. I got tired of the actual schizophrenics that are taking hold part of the forum and decided to do something about it. |
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#175 |
imperfecto del subjuntivo
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: stranded at Buenos Aires, a city that, like NYC or Paris, has so little to offer...
Posts: 9,432
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Horrible dipsomaniacs and other addicts, be gone and get treated, or covfefe your soul!These fora are full of scientists and specialists. Most of them turn back to pumpkins the second they log out. I got tired of the actual schizophrenics that are taking hold part of the forum and decided to do something about it. |
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#176 |
imperfecto del subjuntivo
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: stranded at Buenos Aires, a city that, like NYC or Paris, has so little to offer...
Posts: 9,432
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Horrible dipsomaniacs and other addicts, be gone and get treated, or covfefe your soul!These fora are full of scientists and specialists. Most of them turn back to pumpkins the second they log out. I got tired of the actual schizophrenics that are taking hold part of the forum and decided to do something about it. |
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#177 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 31,691
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#178 | |||
imperfecto del subjuntivo
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: stranded at Buenos Aires, a city that, like NYC or Paris, has so little to offer...
Posts: 9,432
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Horrible dipsomaniacs and other addicts, be gone and get treated, or covfefe your soul!These fora are full of scientists and specialists. Most of them turn back to pumpkins the second they log out. I got tired of the actual schizophrenics that are taking hold part of the forum and decided to do something about it. |
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#179 |
imperfecto del subjuntivo
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: stranded at Buenos Aires, a city that, like NYC or Paris, has so little to offer...
Posts: 9,432
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Hedonistic, sure; romantic, the jury is still out. But, what has to do being an hedonist and a romantic with being enamoured of hedonistic romantic notions? (Hint: since Robespierre invented the notion of changing human nature just by sanctioning a new law about it, there have been an endless stream of people offering the formulas for freedom, prosperity and justice. Like one of my cousins used to say: "Here by this decree I declare the people of this country to be happy") |
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Horrible dipsomaniacs and other addicts, be gone and get treated, or covfefe your soul!These fora are full of scientists and specialists. Most of them turn back to pumpkins the second they log out. I got tired of the actual schizophrenics that are taking hold part of the forum and decided to do something about it. |
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#180 | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
imperfecto del subjuntivo
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: stranded at Buenos Aires, a city that, like NYC or Paris, has so little to offer...
Posts: 9,432
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For those curious about how Venezuela continued to do after the demise of Chávez, this is the rest of the table (including IMF projections for this year and next)
You have to go to Germany and Japan in 1945 to find such an economic fall in a period of 6 years. IMF data for you to peruse (select "list"). |
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Horrible dipsomaniacs and other addicts, be gone and get treated, or covfefe your soul!These fora are full of scientists and specialists. Most of them turn back to pumpkins the second they log out. I got tired of the actual schizophrenics that are taking hold part of the forum and decided to do something about it. |
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#181 | |||
imperfecto del subjuntivo
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: stranded at Buenos Aires, a city that, like NYC or Paris, has so little to offer...
Posts: 9,432
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Select subtitles/close captions and then in Settings > Subtitles > Auto-translate (to the language of your choice)
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Horrible dipsomaniacs and other addicts, be gone and get treated, or covfefe your soul!These fora are full of scientists and specialists. Most of them turn back to pumpkins the second they log out. I got tired of the actual schizophrenics that are taking hold part of the forum and decided to do something about it. |
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#182 |
Illuminator
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 3,848
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Saudi Arabia certainly weathered declining oil prices better than Venezuela, but that doesn't mean they weren't affected,
Economy of Saudi Arabia
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The main difference was Venezuela didn't have enough easy oil to turn on the taps and maintain income at the lower price. That could have been mitigated by spending more on oilfield infrastructure and diversification of the economy before the easy oil ran out, but even with those measures they would probably have been in trouble. Saudi Arabia is doing all those things but still has to face the final hurdle. If they are lucky then prices will hold during the transition, but if another World-wide recession occurs at the wrong time they could easily go the same way as Venezuela. And before we start throwing stones, let's not forget, Financial crisis of 2007–2008
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We don't want good, sound arguments. We want arguments that sound good. |
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#184 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 6,491
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You already accused lupus_in_fabula of making up statistics. As you are well aware by now, although you may already have forgotten, he didn't. His post proved that Chavez, unlike the dictators you compared him with, actually distributed the wealth from the Venezuelan oil to Venezuelans instead of pocketing it for himself:
dudalb's weird lie about (me and) Marx has already been exploded. That you never actually read any Marx even though you pretended to know his ideas was also revealed: You wouldn't lose your time reading Marx and then you went on to compare Capital to Mein Kampf, which you probably also never read. Very convincing! ETA: I find it a little strange that you guys think that it's necessary to make up these lies. I don't think that anybody in this thread has claimed that the Chavistas invested the oil money wisely: The infrastructure is obviously not what it ought to be. I don't know (I really don't!) to what extent this has to do with sabotage, but why try to deny obvious truths like this?
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/dann "Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht "The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx |
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#185 |
Graduate Poster
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 1,608
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Exactly. Looking at Venezuelan statistics from the 1970s onward, it's somewhat clear we're talking about a struggling state and economic mismanagement. For example, falling oil production is not a new phenomenon in Venezuelan history. But apparently only Chavez is the one emanating the smell of sulfur.
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...Forever shall the wolf in me desire the sheep in you...
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#186 |
Rotten to the Core
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 18,883
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All You Need Is Love. |
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#187 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 31,691
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#188 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 41,923
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No. Sure, Venezuela didn't have extra capacity that they could ramp up. But falling oil prices don't explain why production has been dropping, even while prices were rising. That's mismanagement. Venezuela's problems are primarily self-inflicted. Hyperinflation like Venezuela is experiencing never happens just because of external factors, it happens because of bad choices by government.
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"As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law |
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#189 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 41,923
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First, as aleCcowaN demonstrated, those statistics are not reliable. Second, even had they been reliable, his statistics show nothing of the sort. Per capita GDP statistics tell you absolutely nothing about how income, wealth, or economic activity is distributed. Seriously, do you even understand what per capita GDP means?
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"As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law |
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#190 |
Graduate Poster
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 1,608
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...Forever shall the wolf in me desire the sheep in you...
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#191 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 41,923
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__________________
"As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law |
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#192 |
NWO Cyborg 5960x (subversion VPUNPCKHQDQ)
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Starship Wanderer - DS9
Posts: 12,631
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ModBorg ![]() ![]() Engine: Ibalgin 400 |
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#193 |
Graduate Poster
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 1,608
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...Forever shall the wolf in me desire the sheep in you...
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#194 |
imperfecto del subjuntivo
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: stranded at Buenos Aires, a city that, like NYC or Paris, has so little to offer...
Posts: 9,432
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Originally Posted by Roger Ramjets
You must be joking |
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Horrible dipsomaniacs and other addicts, be gone and get treated, or covfefe your soul!These fora are full of scientists and specialists. Most of them turn back to pumpkins the second they log out. I got tired of the actual schizophrenics that are taking hold part of the forum and decided to do something about it. |
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#195 |
imperfecto del subjuntivo
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: stranded at Buenos Aires, a city that, like NYC or Paris, has so little to offer...
Posts: 9,432
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Why are you fetching statistical information originated in public institutions from sites other than the very ones of those institutions? What's your next source? A tweet from Trump?
GPD per capita current prices for Venezuela in 2013 World Bank ---> 12237u$s (no values since 2015 on) International Monetary Fund ---> 7870u$s (3170u$s estimated for 2018) Oh, yes! The values are so similar! ![]() So you are going to select the numbers that allow you to lie your way away in this discussion, aren't you? How comfortable it is to be ignorant (or feign ignorance) in order to argue the niceties of the Chavist fascist in socialist disguise regime. Let's remember your suggestion that GDP per capita tripled under Chávez. Such a puerile attempt to suggest through twisted statistics a smashing progress were stagnation reigns deserves a reply in proper style: "Liar, liar, pants on fire!" |
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Horrible dipsomaniacs and other addicts, be gone and get treated, or covfefe your soul!These fora are full of scientists and specialists. Most of them turn back to pumpkins the second they log out. I got tired of the actual schizophrenics that are taking hold part of the forum and decided to do something about it. |
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#196 |
Philosopher
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 7,773
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#197 |
imperfecto del subjuntivo
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: stranded at Buenos Aires, a city that, like NYC or Paris, has so little to offer...
Posts: 9,432
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What do you think you'll achieve by doubling the bet on the same lie?
That case was already closed in the posts above. Try to get something fresh to say (preferably, not a lie or a romantic misrepresentation) In sight of the divorce with reality you're talking about everywhere else. I won't ever bother in following your argumentation. Take from me what Rett Buttler said in the ending of Gone with the Wind. The only data there is that you, probably, read a book. Very poor as argumentation. You make up lies !!! Non wise investments!!! Sabotage!!! ![]() You're so funny!!! Don't ever change !!! Already explained by me above and conveniently ignored by you (You wouldn't understand it or you wouldn't know how to argue it). I have to tell you, dann, that, in this business of being zurdo, you are extremely limited. Go and fetch someone with whom it's worth discussing so they can replace you in this thread. I have debated with zurdos all my life and I can spot the real deal from the endless 8-track tape (follow the link in case you're not as old as your ideas) |
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Horrible dipsomaniacs and other addicts, be gone and get treated, or covfefe your soul!These fora are full of scientists and specialists. Most of them turn back to pumpkins the second they log out. I got tired of the actual schizophrenics that are taking hold part of the forum and decided to do something about it. |
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#198 |
Graduate Poster
Join Date: Nov 2006
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...Forever shall the wolf in me desire the sheep in you...
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#199 |
imperfecto del subjuntivo
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: stranded at Buenos Aires, a city that, like NYC or Paris, has so little to offer...
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Horrible dipsomaniacs and other addicts, be gone and get treated, or covfefe your soul!These fora are full of scientists and specialists. Most of them turn back to pumpkins the second they log out. I got tired of the actual schizophrenics that are taking hold part of the forum and decided to do something about it. |
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#200 |
imperfecto del subjuntivo
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: stranded at Buenos Aires, a city that, like NYC or Paris, has so little to offer...
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It's the famous record where he tells how he was praying alone in a church -he's a very devout Christian ![]() |
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Horrible dipsomaniacs and other addicts, be gone and get treated, or covfefe your soul!These fora are full of scientists and specialists. Most of them turn back to pumpkins the second they log out. I got tired of the actual schizophrenics that are taking hold part of the forum and decided to do something about it. |
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