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Tags 2020 elections , Elizabeth Warren , Massachusetts politics , presidential candidates , racial categorization , racial isssues

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Old 11th February 2019, 08:03 AM   #3121
carlitos
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
It's not like Obama was raised in the American South, a fourth generation heir of a legacy of slavery, segregation, and discrimination.

Obama knows as much about the African American experience as Elizabeth Warren knows about the Native American experience.
What a load of *********. Go buy a clue.
Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
If Warren tries to catch a cab, do you think the cab driver is saying, "Oh, there's a native American"?

No.
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Old 11th February 2019, 08:33 AM   #3122
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Originally Posted by Silly Green Monkey View Post
Six years it managed to make regular flights without those legs. But there was a solid argument for her not taking the test, and an argument for taking the test and laying everything to rest. Part of the argument against was that, exactly as with the birth certificate, taking the test would fail no matter the results. She got goaded into it, but she didn't randomly decide "hey no one's talked about this potential skeleton in my closet for a while, let's bring it out to dance!". She's not Trump. Had rightwing loons let it lie, she wouldn't have mentioned it again.

It really was more "I'll do it if it'll make you SHUT UP for once!" than "Pay attention to meeeee!" like those accustomed to Trump are assuming.
I really don't agree that there was a solid argument for taking the test because the GOP was never going to let it rest. First rule in politics is to talk about what you want to talk about. Not what the opponent wants to talk about. Every article about her heritage, she loses, every article about her fighting the big banks and helping the middle class she wins.
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Old 11th February 2019, 08:35 AM   #3123
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I just think "Oh I'm not going to backup a statement I made because the other side isn't going to believe me anyway" is a very, very, very, very bad precedent to set in politics.

I don't want it to be the response to every request to backup something a politician says in a few years.
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Old 11th February 2019, 08:36 AM   #3124
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
I just think "Oh I'm not going to backup a statement I made because the other side isn't going to believe me anyway" is a very, very, very, very bad precedent to set in politics.
I think that precedent was set in 509 BC.
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Old 11th February 2019, 08:37 AM   #3125
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
I think that precedent was set in 509 BC.
Yeah but now we've got people cheerleading for it as a positive.

It's shift from "You shouldn't have to" to "You are literally in the wrong if you even try to explain yourself to the other side..."
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Old 11th February 2019, 09:59 PM   #3126
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Exactly! How is it a good thing to allow any party to set traps for another, where the person targeted will lose whether they attempt to defend themselves or attempt to ignore the playground taunts and get on with what they were elected for? Our lawmakers really should act like adults (I realize they never have, but things can change). If I knew a way to avoid empowering the lobbyists who write laws for Congresscritters I'd boot everybody out after they've served a term. Maybe let the good ones stand again later, but no consecutive terms---no incumbent advantage.
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Old 12th February 2019, 12:00 PM   #3127
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Doesn't it seem a bit like the left helped set this trap for itself by doubling down on identitarianism & callout culture?
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Old 12th February 2019, 12:18 PM   #3128
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Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
Doesn't it seem a bit like the left helped set this trap for itself by doubling down on identitarianism & callout culture?
I don't think so. Callout culture has been a part of politics (digging for dirt, attack ads, etc.) since antiquity. I think it's a nonpartisan phenomenon.

I don't really see a trap here, just a conflict. Our attitude towards ethnicity and identity in this country is such that a privileged white person checking the box for "Native American" is kind of absurd. By doing so, Warren opened herself up to ridicule based on this perceived absurdity.

And it follows from our ideas about ethnicity and minority oppression, that claiming minority identity is supposed to be something important. But the biggest defense of Warren is that it's not important. So there's a conflict there.

I don't think this is a trap set by the left. I think that our society as a whole is conflicted about this. Dispute exists across the entire partisan spectrum in this country.

The trap wasn't set by the left. It was set by Warren, by the TBA, by Harvard. It was set by all of us, as a society, when we stopped bothering to think about what we want ethnic identity to mean, and why we think it's important.
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Old 12th February 2019, 12:35 PM   #3129
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
The trap wasn't set by the left. It was set by Warren, by the TBA, by Harvard.
https://www.thecrimson.com/article/2...survey-part-2/

Quote:
The faculty survey revealed that the vast majority of respondents identify as “liberal” or “very liberal,” and that a similarly large majority of FAS voted for Hillary Clinton in 2016.
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Old 12th February 2019, 01:45 PM   #3130
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Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
Doesn't it seem a bit like the left helped set this trap for itself by doubling down on identitarianism & callout culture?
That's all I've been saying for pages now.

Nobody, in any part of this discussion, gives a crap in the abstract if Elizabeth Warren claims to be 25% Velociraptor. What the Right cares about is hoisting the Democrats up the petard that they've spent the modern age carefully erected and what the Left cares about is getting Warren off the petard while still maintaining it because wow they love that particular petard for some reason.

This is a check written to cash in a towards a "gotcha" the next time someone in the vague, undefined "Left" goes on some stupid tangent about cultural appropriation or some other such nonsense.
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Old 12th February 2019, 01:59 PM   #3131
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Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
The trap wasn't set by the left. It was set by Warren, by the TBA, by Harvard.
https://www.thecrimson.com/article/2...survey-part-2/

Quote:
The faculty survey revealed that the vast majority of respondents identify as “liberal” or “very liberal,” and that a similarly large majority of FAS voted for Hillary Clinton in 2016.

Two questions come to mind.

What, exactly, does “liberal” or “very liberal,” mean, either in this context, their own minds, or by comparison to other non-U.S. or non-partisan environments?

How relevant is this to someone who began teaching at Harvard over a quarter century ago, following yet another quarter century matriculating and teaching at far less prestigious public universities?
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Old 12th February 2019, 02:11 PM   #3132
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
As Obama said addressing this very point...

"If I'm outside your building trying to catch a cab," he told Charlie Rose, "they're not saying, 'Oh, there's a mixed race guy.'"
It's almost funny watching people (who almost always non-black) try to separate Obama, and only him, from other black people, by desperately searching for reasons why he isn't actually a black American.

"He's biracial." Then almost all of us are as well, but you never blathered about "biracial" before Obama was nearing the presidency.

"His father was an immigrant, he doesn't have slavery in his past." Well, first, you don't know that, and second, most of us that aren't hoteps fully accept immigrants, and their children.

"Why are you making it about race?" Read books, for Gawd's sake.
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Old 12th February 2019, 02:31 PM   #3133
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Nobody, in any part of this discussion, gives a crap in the abstract if Elizabeth Warren claims to be 25% Velociraptor. What the Right cares about is hoisting the Democrats up the petard that they've spent the modern age carefully erected and what the Left cares about is getting Warren off the petard while still maintaining it because wow they love that particular petard for some reason.
That's not how a petard works.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Petard
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Old 12th February 2019, 02:33 PM   #3134
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
That's not how a petard works.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Petard
I never sacrifice factual accuracy to stop torturing a metaphor way past the point Amnesty International is okay with it.
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Old 12th February 2019, 02:38 PM   #3135
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
I never sacrifice factual accuracy to stop torturing a metaphor way past the point Amnesty International is okay with it.
Then you shall be moist with George Peppard.
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Old 12th February 2019, 02:45 PM   #3136
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I am still puzzled by why checking the box for a portion of her ancestry counts as Identifying As That. I checked all the boxes that applied, or I thought applied, until it started including tribal membership and it sounds like Warren stopped about the same time. I claim an ancestor on the Trail by family lore. I do not identify as Cherokee or Delaware and I never have. My ancestry by lore includes both. Or, it might have been some other tribe, Mom was told as a child that she looked like she had some Indian blood but her family had no idea what it was. My sister had heard we were "just below the amount we could claim" [membership] but I can't go digging around in our family tree because all the access to genealogy information has been sewn up by paid sites.

Ancestry is not identity. Claiming ancestry does not indicate identity one tiny bit.
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Old 12th February 2019, 03:52 PM   #3137
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
I never sacrifice factual accuracy to stop torturing a metaphor way past the point Amnesty International is okay with it.
Well Shakespeare hoist on a small bomb doesn't seem to make sense...unless hoist meant something different then.
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Old 12th February 2019, 04:00 PM   #3138
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Originally Posted by quadraginta View Post
What, exactly, does “liberal” or “very liberal,” mean, either in this context, their own minds, or by comparison to other non-U.S. or non-partisan environments?
Roughly the same as what I meant by "the left" earlier.
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Old 12th February 2019, 04:50 PM   #3139
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
Well Shakespeare hoist on a small bomb doesn't seem to make sense...unless hoist meant something different then.
'Hoist' means lifted up into the air, which is possible when the bomb is beneath you.
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Old 12th February 2019, 05:24 PM   #3140
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Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
Roughly the same as what I meant by "the left" earlier.
The question you haven't answered is trying to determine what is meant by "the left" in your context.

For example, in most other countries, the Democrats would be considered generally as centrist to soft-right. In the USA they are literally being called socialists.

Elsewhere, Bernie would be considered soft-left. In the USA, he is so far left he is Marxism and Leninism distilled and personified.

Elsewhere, the GOP would be considered hard-right bordering on (or indeed frankly) theocratic fascists. In the USA, they are (claiming to be) moderate-right.

So what is "left" and "right" is mostly a matter of where you put your scale.
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Old 12th February 2019, 05:36 PM   #3141
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Originally Posted by Silly Green Monkey View Post
I am still puzzled by why checking the box for a portion of her ancestry counts as Identifying As That. I checked all the boxes that applied, or I thought applied, until it started including tribal membership and it sounds like Warren stopped about the same time. I claim an ancestor on the Trail by family lore. I do not identify as Cherokee or Delaware and I never have. My ancestry by lore includes both. Or, it might have been some other tribe, Mom was told as a child that she looked like she had some Indian blood but her family had no idea what it was. My sister had heard we were "just below the amount we could claim" [membership] but I can't go digging around in our family tree because all the access to genealogy information has been sewn up by paid sites.

Ancestry is not identity. Claiming ancestry does not indicate identity one tiny bit.
Does not seem very skeptical to put such stock in lore.
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Old 12th February 2019, 05:47 PM   #3142
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Originally Posted by Norman Alexander View Post
So what is "left" and "right" is mostly a matter of where you put your scale.
Is this a thread about U.S. politics?
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Old 12th February 2019, 06:38 PM   #3143
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Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
Is this a thread about U.S. politics?

Even when limited to the U.S. there is a fairly wide spectrum of political beliefs described or implied by the term "liberal". All depending on who the speaker is and often what they are trying to suggest.

Sometimes the term is used merely as a pejorative and has little or no relationship to their actual political views, even within the U.S. normative spectrum.

Bill Clinton was described at certain times and by certain parties as being "very liberal". Would you agree with that?

As was Hillary. Maybe even 'dangerously liberal'. Would you agree with that?

Can you expand on what was meant by the use of "liberal" and "very liberal" in the quote you cited, perhaps anchoring it to some actual positions which would allow others to evaluate where on such a spectrum the usages might fall?

Or, failing that, what you think was meant?

Absent such an explanation, one might be compelled to assume that the pejorative usage is all that was implied by you.
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Old 12th February 2019, 06:41 PM   #3144
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Originally Posted by quadraginta View Post
Absent such an explanation, one might be compelled to assume that the pejorative usage is all that was implied by you.
You think Harvard professors were invoking the pejorative usage while identifying themselves as either liberal or very liberal?
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Old 12th February 2019, 06:46 PM   #3145
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Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
You think Harvard professors were invoking the pejorative usage while identifying themselves as either liberal or very liberal?

No, but I also don't think that their usage and your own are necessarily identical. Or even particularly similar, for that matter.

That's why I'd like to know in more detail just what you believe they meant by those terms.

That would go some way to explaining your motives for posting the quote.
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Old 12th February 2019, 06:46 PM   #3146
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This really shouldn't be all that difficult to suss out, you guys. We've been talking about someone who hopes to win the Democratic nomination in the U.S. by appealing to the sort of activists who caucus for the Democrats or primary voters who choose to vote in the Democratic primary. The people to whom she must appeal are not right wing and only rarely in the political center, as those phrases are generally construed by native speakers of American English.
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Old 12th February 2019, 07:04 PM   #3147
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Originally Posted by quadraginta View Post
Even when limited to the U.S. there is a fairly wide spectrum of political beliefs described or implied by the term "liberal". All depending on who the speaker is and often what they are trying to suggest.

Sometimes the term is used merely as a pejorative and has little or no relationship to their actual political views, even within the U.S. normative spectrum.

Bill Clinton was described at certain times and by certain parties as being "very liberal". Would you agree with that?

As was Hillary. Maybe even 'dangerously liberal'. Would you agree with that?

Can you expand on what was meant by the use of "liberal" and "very liberal" in the quote you cited, perhaps anchoring it to some actual positions which would allow others to evaluate where on such a spectrum the usages might fall?

Or, failing that, what you think was meant?

Absent such an explanation, one might be compelled to assume that the pejorative usage is all that was implied by you.

Hillary was never liberal. She may have worn a mask at times (can't think of when) but I see nothing about her that is liberal, now or ever.

Bill Clinton was in office decades ago. He was pretty liberal with his wedding vows but other than that? Not so much. Liberalism/the left is sliding more to the left every day. Well at least those making all the noise.

I don't follow politics in any country other than my own, so I don't participate in those discussions.
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Old 12th February 2019, 07:21 PM   #3148
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Originally Posted by Silly Green Monkey View Post
I am still puzzled by why checking the box for a portion of her ancestry counts as Identifying As That. I checked all the boxes that applied, or I thought applied, until it started including tribal membership and it sounds like Warren stopped about the same time. I claim an ancestor on the Trail by family lore. I do not identify as Cherokee or Delaware and I never have. My ancestry by lore includes both. Or, it might have been some other tribe, Mom was told as a child that she looked like she had some Indian blood but her family had no idea what it was. My sister had heard we were "just below the amount we could claim" [membership] but I can't go digging around in our family tree because all the access to genealogy information has been sewn up by paid sites.

Ancestry is not identity. Claiming ancestry does not indicate identity one tiny bit.



Absolutely correct. Unfortunately, what you say does not fit the racist right wing Trumpist "call people pejorative nicknames" narrative.
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Old 12th February 2019, 07:30 PM   #3149
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
Then you shall be moist with George Peppard.
Glorious.
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Old 12th February 2019, 07:44 PM   #3150
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Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
This really shouldn't be all that difficult to suss out, you guys. We've been talking about someone who hopes to win the Democratic nomination in the U.S. by appealing to the sort of activists who caucus for the Democrats or primary voters who choose to vote in the Democratic primary. The people to whom she must appeal are not right wing and only rarely in the political center, as those phrases are generally construed by native speakers of American English.
These terms need clear definition. Because defining things as something else to match your own views is not helpful. Or have people gotten used to the MAGA-coloured glasses?

For example, for me as a non-American, these terms identify the "ultra-right" and "medium right" views. The Dems and the issues they are caucusing on would easily fit with our "centre-rightist" party agendas here in the Soviet Union of Australia.
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Old 12th February 2019, 08:08 PM   #3151
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Originally Posted by Norman Alexander View Post
These terms need clear definition.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Right-...cs#cite_ref-24

Originally Posted by Norman Alexander View Post
Or have people gotten used to the MAGA-coloured glasses?
I'm using these phrases in the usual way, as an American speaking about American politics.

Of course the center is going to move over time, whenever something once considered a radical reform (e.g. Medicare, Same Sex Marriage) becomes the new normal.

Originally Posted by Norman Alexander View Post
The Dems and the issues they are caucusing on would easily fit with our "centre-rightist" party agendas here in the Soviet Union of Australia.
*checks subforum name*
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Old 12th February 2019, 08:12 PM   #3152
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Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
Erm, exactly. You did read this, by the way?

So is the GOP "radical right"? or just "extreme right"?
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Old 12th February 2019, 08:14 PM   #3153
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Originally Posted by Silly Green Monkey View Post
I am still puzzled by why checking the box for a portion of her ancestry counts as Identifying As That. I checked all the boxes that applied, or I thought applied, until it started including tribal membership and it sounds like Warren stopped about the same time...
Regrettably, applause notwithstanding, this is false. At least as pertaining to the most recent revelation where she wrote out "American Indian" as her "Race".
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Old 12th February 2019, 08:16 PM   #3154
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Originally Posted by varwoche View Post
Regrettably, applause notwithstanding, this is false. At least as pertaining to the most recent revelation where she wrote out "American Indian" as her "Race".

In a box labeled specifically that it would not be used to identify her.
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Old 12th February 2019, 08:21 PM   #3155
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Originally Posted by Norman Alexander View Post
So is the GOP "radical right"? or just "extreme right"?
How exactly does that matter, given the topic at hand? Warren isn't trying to appeal to either economic conservatives or social conservatives, so far as I can tell, and certainly not yet.
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Old 12th February 2019, 08:29 PM   #3156
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Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
How exactly does that matter, given the topic at hand? Warren isn't trying to appeal to either economic conservatives or social conservatives, so far as I can tell, and certainly not yet.
Correct. Her message is a fairly centrist one, NOT a leftist one. Nothing very startling, rather MOR, really. However to the far-right that is pinko commie stuff, and she is is being denigrated literally as a socialist poo-head who wants to take their guns and freedom.
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Old 12th February 2019, 08:29 PM   #3157
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Originally Posted by mgidm86 View Post
Bill Clinton was in office decades ago. He was pretty liberal with his wedding vows but other than that? Not so much. Liberalism/the left is sliding more to the left every day. Well at least those making all the noise.

I don't follow politics in any country other than my own, so I don't participate in those discussions.
Nevertheless, it is true that what we mean by "liberal" is the norm in the more-developed countries. UHC, gun control, abortion rights - in the U.S. these are "liberal" traits, but just the norm in much of the developed word. Does anyone really think Australia is a left-wing state? Yet it has UHC, gun regulation and mandatory voting. Politicians who pushed for similar agendas in the U.S. would probably be seen wildly and dangerously liberal.
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Old 12th February 2019, 08:38 PM   #3158
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Originally Posted by RecoveringYuppy View Post
In a box labeled specifically that it would be used to identify her.
Well, my eyesight is not what it once was, but it looked like that box was labelled "for statistical purposes only.......will not be shared" or something to that effect.
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Old 12th February 2019, 08:39 PM   #3159
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Originally Posted by Norman Alexander View Post
Her message is a fairly centrist one, NOT a leftist one.
If we choose to use Aussie politics as the baseline for centrism while discussing U.S. politics, yes. Otherwise, no. She has been creating progressive reforms designed to protect citizens against unbridled corporate power for quite awhile now.
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Old 12th February 2019, 08:42 PM   #3160
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Originally Posted by Distracted1 View Post
Well, my eyesight is not what it once was, but it looked like that box was labelled "for statistical purposes only.......will not be shared" or something to that effect.
Yes, yes, I left out a keyword, I noticed and edited. "not" makes a big difference. I hope this is clear from my earlier posts.
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