Trump announces new concentration camps - Page 7

dudalb · 5th November 2018, 12:52 PM

Originally Posted by smartcooky

No worries. I'm immune to his bigotry.

You see, I know I'm dealing with a Holocaust Denier. What could be more scurrilous than that?

I wear that attacks I have received from the Holocaust Deniers and other assorted bigots here as a badge of honor.

Ziggurat · 5th November 2018, 01:02 PM

Originally Posted by smartcooky

Of course, but can you do that with a pay rate that doesn't make the whole thing unprofitable.

If you can't, perhaps you shouldn't be in that business.

Quote:

If I were living a nice, comfortable life in the east in a modest job paying, say $25/hr, I would not be prepared to up-sticks to Iowa to work on a farm for less than $100/hr.

If you were employed at $12.50/hour, would it still take $100/hr to entice you to move for a farm job? Or might you move for something less? What if you were unemployed? What if you lived in Des Moines, Iowa, would it be easier to move to a farm in Iowa?

The fact that you personally wouldn't consider it for less than $100/hr doesn't mean that anything close to $100/hr is what it would take to get a comparably large domestic work force.

Quote:

People say that "agriculture" is just another industry not different from any other. This is wrong. Agriculture is a PRIMARY industry, a country cannot survive and prosper without it.

That isn't a risk we're facing.

Even assuming an immediate deportation of every illegal immigrant, more than half the workforce would remain at current salary levels. Salary levels would increase to try to get more workers, and some fraction would be replaced with legal workers. Some farm businesses might close, but not all of them. And labor requirements are not uniformly distributed across the industry. They are heavily concentrated in crops where harvesting is not mechanized. The biggest US food crops (corn, wheat, soy, potatoes) are very mechanized, which means that they don't need a large labor force to begin with. Same with cotton and hay, which are major non-food crops. A heavily mechanized crop can absorb significant salary increases with pretty small product price increases. We can survive as a country even if the strawberry industry (for example) dies.

But again, that's not a realistic scenario. We could get a decrease in incoming illegal immigration and an increase in illegal immigrants being deported or choosing to leave, and thus a net decrease in the illegal immigrant population over time. But that's not going to happen instantaneously. Furthermore, there are visa programs specifically for agricultural workers that could and likely would expand in such a scenario.

So while there might well be negative consequences for the agricultural industry, as well as higher food prices for consumers, your doomsday scenario isn't really realistic.

Ziggurat · 5th November 2018, 01:05 PM

Originally Posted by Border Reiver

As a small, potentially relevant point to the idea that, labour prices may simply be going up because the number of available workers is down. Essentially, the urban jobless or under-employed may quite simply be unable to get to these wonderful high-paying rural opportunities.

Transportation is a cost that needs to be included. But if that's all that's keeping urban jobless people from working on farms that need them, then somebody's going to fill that role. The farmers will pay directly for it if they have to, that's just a form of increased labor costs.

Stacyhs · 5th November 2018, 01:17 PM

The H-2A temporary visa program for agricultural workers has a lot of problems associated with it. The advocacy group Farmworker Justice is highly critical of it.

https://www.farmworkerjustice.org/si....a.6%20fwj.pdf

Quote:

Farmers Wait, And Wait, For Guest Workers Amid H-2A Visa Delays

Quote:

The reasons vary from year to year, but the outcome is the same. As a result, says Kristi Boswell with the American Farm Bureau, farmers have reported losses of up to $300,000.

Quote:

Dan Kent says he has tried to hire locally, but it's never worked out. As for offering higher wages, Kent says his crew from Mexico will earn $11.74 an hour. When he factors in their food, housing and travel, it's more than what he takes for himself.

"For the sake of keeping this whole project alive, I'm going to try this," Kent says. "But until I can figure out a way to make more than my workers, I'm not apt to pay them $15 or $18 or $25 an hour. It would make me come unhinged."

https://www.npr.org/sections/thesalt...2a-visa-delays

LSSBB · 5th November 2018, 01:32 PM

Originally Posted by Stacyhs

The H-2A temporary visa program for agricultural workers has a lot of problems associated with it. The advocacy group Farmworker Justice is highly critical of it.

https://www.farmworkerjustice.org/si....a.6%20fwj.pdf

https://www.npr.org/sections/thesalt...2a-visa-delays

I don't see how those issues can't be fixed by improved processing of the visas.

SuburbanTurkey · 5th November 2018, 01:41 PM

Originally Posted by Ziggurat

Transportation is a cost that needs to be included. But if that's all that's keeping urban jobless people from working on farms that need them, then somebody's going to fill that role. The farmers will pay directly for it if they have to, that's just a form of increased labor costs.

We also have to keep in mind that this work on farms is seasonal and short-term, which is why they have used immigrant labor in the past. The reason farmers can't find domestic labor for these gigs is because it objectively sucks for what they get paid. Short term, manual labor, outdoors, poor pay, no benefits, far from home, all that for bosses that have been spoiled by a desperate workforce for decades. People aren't going to uproot their lives for such transient work unless it pays really well.

phiwum · 5th November 2018, 02:02 PM

Originally Posted by smartcooky

No worries. I'm immune to his bigotry.

You see, I know I'm dealing with a Holocaust Denier. What could be more scurrilous than that?

Frankly, it's not about you, but about the sort of attacks we ought to allow here. Saying you engaged in genocide by your post is beyond the pale, regardless of whether it's water off a duck's back or not.

smartcooky · 5th November 2018, 02:27 PM

Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey

We also have to keep in mind that this work on farms is seasonal and short-term, which is why they have used immigrant labor in the past. The reason farmers can't find domestic labor for these gigs is because it objectively sucks for what they get paid. Short term, manual labor, outdoors, poor pay, no benefits, far from home, all that for bosses that have been spoiled by a desperate workforce for decades. People aren't going to uproot their lives for such transient work unless it pays really well.

I guess the word "itinerant" isn't in the vocabulary of those who live in the fantasy world where urban dwellers are going to just pack up their lives and move thousands of miles for a few weeks work.

smartcooky · 5th November 2018, 02:32 PM

Originally Posted by Ziggurat

What if you lived in Des Moines, Iowa, would it be easier to move to a farm in Iowa?

If I lived in Des Moines, Iowa, I would already have a skilled job; in fact, I could take my pick of jobs.

There is a severe worker shortage in Des Moines...

https://www.wsj.com/articles/iowas-e...ple-1522580400

https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/ar...oyment/564527/

... so I don't think urban dwellers are going to be moving from Des Moines to rural Iowa to work in numbers on farms any time soon; at least, not in the numbers required.

smartcooky · 5th November 2018, 02:38 PM

Originally Posted by dudalb

I wear that attacks I have received from the Holocaust Deniers and other assorted bigots here as a badge of honor.

Yep. I think it was Joe Morgue who said "If I'm going to be somebody's boogeyman no matter what I do, then all I need to do is be the best person I can be and wear people's hatred as a badge of honor"

JoeMorgue · 5th November 2018, 02:40 PM

Originally Posted by smartcooky

Yep. I think it was Joe Morgue who said "If I'm going to be somebody's boogeyman no matter what I do, then all I need to do is be the best person I can be and wear people's hatred as a badge of honor"

Twas'

Right now the single most annoying people in "The discussion" are the people with a firm grasp on the simple fact that you can't please everyone yet stubbornly refuse to understand why you can't always please them.

Ziggurat · 5th November 2018, 02:53 PM

So the NYT ran an editorial cartoon about Trump's border troop deployment, and in the process managed to illustrate that they have no clue what they're talking about:
https://twitter.com/nytopinion/statu...46136807096320
Can you spot the obvious problem?

Upchurch · 5th November 2018, 02:57 PM

Originally Posted by Ziggurat

So the NYT ran an editorial cartoon about Trump's border troop deployment, and in the process managed to illustrate that they have no clue what they're talking about:
https://twitter.com/nytopinion/statu...46136807096320
Can you spot the obvious problem?

Would your point be repeating the conservative echo chamber line that is represented in the replies to your link?

Quote:

NYT thinks our troops want to fight in the Middle East instead of protecting America's border.

carlitos · 5th November 2018, 03:00 PM

Originally Posted by Ziggurat

So the NYT ran an editorial cartoon about Trump's border troop deployment, and in the process managed to illustrate that they have no clue what they're talking about:
https://twitter.com/nytopinion/statu...46136807096320
Can you spot the obvious problem?

That someone posted a twitter link?

ETA - There was a Rand Corporation survey on why people really enlist. Top reasons included Adventure / Travel, Job Training and "Call to Serve."

ETA2- cartoon says "enroll" not enlist, which is odd.

Ziggurat · 5th November 2018, 03:01 PM

Originally Posted by Upchurch

Would your point be repeating the conservative echo chamber line that is represented in the replies to your link?

Nope. The problem I'm referring to has got nothing to do with the middle east. In fact, it's got nothing to do with politics at all, at least not intrinsically.

But I'm amused to see you didn't notice it either.

Ziggurat · 5th November 2018, 03:03 PM

Originally Posted by carlitos

That someone posted a twitter link?

I considered linking to the NYT's web page, but they actually figured out their screw up and fixed it there. The twitter version preserves it, though. But if you can't figure out the mistake on your own, well, you can compare the two versions and find out.

Quote:

ETA - There was a Rand Corporation survey on why people really enlist. Top reasons included Adventure / Travel, Job Training and "Call to Serve."

The screw up isn't about why they enlist. But you're getting closer.

Upchurch · 5th November 2018, 03:03 PM

Originally Posted by Ziggurat

Nope. The problem I'm referring to has got nothing to do with the middle east. In fact, it's got nothing to do with politics at all, at least not intrinsically.

But I'm amused to see you didn't notice it either.

Well, mind-reading has never been my strong suit. I guess, technically, it's no one's strong suit.

My kids also liked playing guessing games where anything people guessed was wrong. Thankfully, they've grown out of it.

LSSBB · 5th November 2018, 03:06 PM

Yay Zig, guessing games!
I was going to compliment you on your reply to smartcooky regarding economics. Now I don't know if you are a single poster or a random collective.

Ziggurat · 5th November 2018, 03:08 PM

Originally Posted by Upchurch

Well, mind-reading has never been my strong suit. I guess, technically, it's no one's strong suit.

My kids also liked playing guessing games where anything people guessed was wrong. Thankfully, they've grown out of it.

Oh, but you don't have to guess at what I'm thinking. You can compare versions. The Twitter version has a mistake, the linked NYT page version has it fixed. No guessing is required, just some simple observation. Even if you don't know what's wrong with the Twitter version (and it's not complicated), just spot the change.

Dr. Keith · 5th November 2018, 03:09 PM

Originally Posted by Ziggurat

Nope. The problem I'm referring to has got nothing to do with the middle east. In fact, it's got nothing to do with politics at all, at least not intrinsically.

But I'm amused to see you didn't notice it either.

I'm pretty good at these:

- the top red stripe on the flag is barely visible;
- there are no stars on the flag;
- Trump's hands are too large;
- Trump's tie is too short;

ETA: Enrolled v. enlisted: at least I was on the right track!

Upchurch · 5th November 2018, 03:12 PM

Originally Posted by Ziggurat

Oh, but you don't have to guess at what I'm thinking. You can compare versions. The Twitter version has a mistake, the linked NYT page version has it fixed. No guessing is required, just some simple observation. Even if you don't know what's wrong with the Twitter version (and it's not complicated), just spot the change.

You're saying they don't know what they are talking about over... what? A typo? A typo they've apparently corrected?

um... boo? Fake news?

Ziggurat · 5th November 2018, 03:13 PM

Originally Posted by LSSBB

Yay Zig, guessing games!
I was going to compliment you on your reply to smartcooky regarding economics. Now I don't know if you are a single poster or a random collective.

You, Upchurch and carlitos are a random collective. And none of you can spot the mistake. carlitos got so close, though. So if you still can't figure it out, I'll give you the answer.

Ziggurat · 5th November 2018, 03:15 PM

Originally Posted by Upchurch

You're saying they don't know what they are talking about over... what? A typo? A typo they've apparently corrected?

um... boo? Fake news?

A typo would be two l's in "enlisted". That wasn't a typo.

And it can't be fake news since it's not news at all, it's a cartoon. But it does reveal a news organization that's out of touch with much of the country, since it never jumped out at either the cartoonist or his editors that nobody enrolls in the military. Apparently much of this board is similarly disconnected.

carlitos · 5th November 2018, 03:16 PM

Yeah, I noticed that (and said so above). Not sure what you mean by the "linked" NYT page "version" as I don't see an NYT link in this thread.

RecoveringYuppy · 5th November 2018, 03:18 PM

Originally Posted by Ziggurat

You, Upchurch and carlitos are a random collective. And none of you can spot the mistake. carlitos got so close, though. So if you still can't figure it out, I'll give you the answer.

That's truly pathetic that you think that's worth pointing out.

Ziggurat · 5th November 2018, 03:18 PM

Originally Posted by carlitos

Yeah, I noticed that (and said so above). Not sure what you mean by the "linked" NYT page "version" as I don't see an NYT link in this thread.

The link is in the tweet.

Ziggurat · 5th November 2018, 03:19 PM

Originally Posted by RecoveringYuppy

That's truly pathetic that you think that's worth pointing out.

carlitos · 5th November 2018, 03:22 PM

P1 - If someone doesn't immediately notice a mistake in this cartoon, they are "disconnected" from the military and real Americans^TM
P2 - OMG, it took like 12 minutes for someone on the ISF to notice the mistake on a twitter link they are probably viewing on their phone during the work day on a Monday
C - This board is a bunch of disconnected liberals.

That's some mighty weak logical sauce, my friend.

LSSBB · 5th November 2018, 03:24 PM

Originally Posted by Ziggurat

You, Upchurch and carlitos are a random collective. And none of you can spot the mistake. carlitos got so close, though. So if you still can't figure it out, I'll give you the answer.

I didn't do either. I got Commissioned.

So there.

Upchurch · 5th November 2018, 03:24 PM

Originally Posted by Ziggurat

A typo would be two l's in "enlisted". That wasn't a typo.

And it can't be fake news since it's not news at all, it's a cartoon. But it does reveal a news organization that's out of touch with much of the country, since it never jumped out at either the cartoonist or his editors that nobody enrolls in the military. Apparently much of this board is similarly disconnected.

Oh, you shore out thunk them New York boys! Har har!

I forgot what a riot you could be. Not like an autocorrect could have possibly caused that, or anything. But moreover, tying that to being out of touch with much of the country? How do you put that together?

carlitos · 5th November 2018, 03:24 PM

I heard that sometimes people got drafted too.

Ziggurat · 5th November 2018, 03:29 PM

Originally Posted by Upchurch

Oh, you shore out thunk them New York boys! Har har!

I forgot what a riot you could be. Not like an autocorrect could have possibly caused that, or anything.

The lettering is hand drawn, it's not a font. Not sure how autocorrect works on that.

Given the topic of this thread, though, it's funny that this is what y'all find unreasonable.

Ziggurat · 5th November 2018, 03:30 PM

Originally Posted by LSSBB

I didn't do either. I got Commissioned.

So there.

Well played, good sir.

Upchurch · 5th November 2018, 03:48 PM

Originally Posted by Ziggurat

The lettering is hand drawn, it's not a font. Not sure how autocorrect works on that.

Argument from incredulity? Okay. This 8s neither the time nor place to explain something like this to you.

Originally Posted by Ziggurat

Given the topic of this thread, though, it's funny that this is what y'all find unreasonable.

What's really wrong is Trump using troops for a political stunt unrelated to their duties.

wareyin · 5th November 2018, 03:51 PM

Originally Posted by baron

That is one ridiculous argument. His workers essentially disappeared over night. That's what cause him the problem. If his workers had all been 5'8" tall, could we then conclude that it is impossible for him to harvest his crops with workers who are shorter or taller?

What workers disappeared overnight? Why did they disappear?

carlitos · 5th November 2018, 03:54 PM

Originally Posted by Ziggurat

You, Upchurch and carlitos are a random collective. And none of you can spot the mistake. carlitos got so close, though. So if you still can't figure it out, I'll give you the answer.

baron · 5th November 2018, 04:23 PM

Originally Posted by wareyin

What workers disappeared overnight? Why did they disappear?

Did you consider reading the article? The very first paragraph will tell you the answer.

smartcooky · 5th November 2018, 04:26 PM

Originally Posted by Ziggurat

So the NYT ran an editorial cartoon about Trump's border troop deployment, and in the process managed to illustrate that they have no clue what they're talking about:
https://twitter.com/nytopinion/statu...46136807096320
Can you spot the obvious problem?

I've got this

The Stars and Stripes has no stars, and the wrong number of stripes.

Upchurch · 5th November 2018, 04:34 PM

Originally Posted by smartcooky

I've got this

The Stars and Stripes has no stars, and the wrong number of stripes.

Also, the sign says “BORDER MEXICO” when in should read “BORDER WALL”.

NYT, so out of touch with real ‘mericans.

wareyin · 5th November 2018, 05:30 PM

Originally Posted by baron

Did you consider reading the article? The very first paragraph will tell you the answer.

It tells me they disappeared because of a crackdown on illegal immigrants. The thing* you asked for evidence of, but said the article didn't support. So now I'm wondering what the article told you.

*Yes, I know you asked for evidence of crops rotting in the field for lack of illegal immigrants. That tomato farmer is telling you that he doesn't have workers because of a crackdown on illegal immigrants, so his crops are rotting on the vine. Your previous response was asking about their height, for some reason that I assume made sense to you at the time.

5th November 2018, 12:52 PM	#241
dudalb Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Sacramento Posts: 42,629	Originally Posted by smartcooky No worries. I'm immune to his bigotry. You see, I know I'm dealing with a Holocaust Denier. What could be more scurrilous than that? I wear that attacks I have received from the Holocaust Deniers and other assorted bigots here as a badge of honor.
	__________________ Pacifism is a shifty doctrine under which a man accepts the benefits of the social group without being willing to pay - and claims a halo for his dishonesty. Robert Heinlein.

5th November 2018, 01:02 PM	#242
Ziggurat Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jun 2003 Posts: 41,949	Originally Posted by smartcooky Of course, but can you do that with a pay rate that doesn't make the whole thing unprofitable. If you can't, perhaps you shouldn't be in that business. Quote: If I were living a nice, comfortable life in the east in a modest job paying, say $25/hr, I would not be prepared to up-sticks to Iowa to work on a farm for less than $100/hr. If you were employed at $12.50/hour, would it still take $100/hr to entice you to move for a farm job? Or might you move for something less? What if you were unemployed? What if you lived in Des Moines, Iowa, would it be easier to move to a farm in Iowa? The fact that you personally wouldn't consider it for less than $100/hr doesn't mean that anything close to $100/hr is what it would take to get a comparably large domestic work force. Quote: People say that "agriculture" is just another industry not different from any other. This is wrong. Agriculture is a PRIMARY industry, a country cannot survive and prosper without it. That isn't a risk we're facing. Even assuming an immediate deportation of every illegal immigrant, more than half the workforce would remain at current salary levels. Salary levels would increase to try to get more workers, and some fraction would be replaced with legal workers. Some farm businesses might close, but not all of them. And labor requirements are not uniformly distributed across the industry. They are heavily concentrated in crops where harvesting is not mechanized. The biggest US food crops (corn, wheat, soy, potatoes) are very mechanized, which means that they don't need a large labor force to begin with. Same with cotton and hay, which are major non-food crops. A heavily mechanized crop can absorb significant salary increases with pretty small product price increases. We can survive as a country even if the strawberry industry (for example) dies. But again, that's not a realistic scenario. We could get a decrease in incoming illegal immigration and an increase in illegal immigrants being deported or choosing to leave, and thus a net decrease in the illegal immigrant population over time. But that's not going to happen instantaneously. Furthermore, there are visa programs specifically for agricultural workers that could and likely would expand in such a scenario. So while there might well be negative consequences for the agricultural industry, as well as higher food prices for consumers, your doomsday scenario isn't really realistic.
	__________________ "As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law

5th November 2018, 01:05 PM	#243
Ziggurat Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jun 2003 Posts: 41,949	Originally Posted by Border Reiver As a small, potentially relevant point to the idea that, labour prices may simply be going up because the number of available workers is down. Essentially, the urban jobless or under-employed may quite simply be unable to get to these wonderful high-paying rural opportunities. Transportation is a cost that needs to be included. But if that's all that's keeping urban jobless people from working on farms that need them, then somebody's going to fill that role. The farmers will pay directly for it if they have to, that's just a form of increased labor costs.
	__________________ "As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law

5th November 2018, 01:17 PM	#244
Stacyhs Philosopher Join Date: Mar 2016 Posts: 6,731	The H-2A temporary visa program for agricultural workers has a lot of problems associated with it. The advocacy group Farmworker Justice is highly critical of it. https://www.farmworkerjustice.org/si....a.6%20fwj.pdf Quote: Farmers Wait, And Wait, For Guest Workers Amid H-2A Visa Delays Quote: The reasons vary from year to year, but the outcome is the same. As a result, says Kristi Boswell with the American Farm Bureau, farmers have reported losses of up to $300,000. Quote: Dan Kent says he has tried to hire locally, but it's never worked out. As for offering higher wages, Kent says his crew from Mexico will earn $11.74 an hour. When he factors in their food, housing and travel, it's more than what he takes for himself. "For the sake of keeping this whole project alive, I'm going to try this," Kent says. "But until I can figure out a way to make more than my workers, I'm not apt to pay them $15 or $18 or $25 an hour. It would make me come unhinged." https://www.npr.org/sections/thesalt...2a-visa-delays
Stacyhs Philosopher Join Date: Mar 2016 Posts: 6,731

5th November 2018, 01:32 PM	#245
LSSBB Devilish Dictionarian Join Date: Oct 2011 Location: An elusive house at Bachelors Grove Cemetery Posts: 19,950	Originally Posted by Stacyhs The H-2A temporary visa program for agricultural workers has a lot of problems associated with it. The advocacy group Farmworker Justice is highly critical of it. https://www.farmworkerjustice.org/si....a.6%20fwj.pdf https://www.npr.org/sections/thesalt...2a-visa-delays I don't see how those issues can't be fixed by improved processing of the visas.
	__________________ "You must not let your need to be right be more important than your need to find out what's true." - Ray Dalio, Principles

5th November 2018, 01:41 PM	#246
SuburbanTurkey Graduate Poster Join Date: Apr 2018 Location: Boston, USA Posts: 1,086	Originally Posted by Ziggurat Transportation is a cost that needs to be included. But if that's all that's keeping urban jobless people from working on farms that need them, then somebody's going to fill that role. The farmers will pay directly for it if they have to, that's just a form of increased labor costs. We also have to keep in mind that this work on farms is seasonal and short-term, which is why they have used immigrant labor in the past. The reason farmers can't find domestic labor for these gigs is because it objectively sucks for what they get paid. Short term, manual labor, outdoors, poor pay, no benefits, far from home, all that for bosses that have been spoiled by a desperate workforce for decades. People aren't going to uproot their lives for such transient work unless it pays really well.
	__________________ Gobble gobble

5th November 2018, 02:02 PM	#247
phiwum Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2010 Posts: 10,982	Originally Posted by smartcooky No worries. I'm immune to his bigotry. You see, I know I'm dealing with a Holocaust Denier. What could be more scurrilous than that? Frankly, it's not about you, but about the sort of attacks we ought to allow here. Saying you engaged in genocide by your post is beyond the pale, regardless of whether it's water off a duck's back or not.

5th November 2018, 02:27 PM	#248
smartcooky Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Oct 2012 Location: Nelson, New Zealand Posts: 10,406	Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey We also have to keep in mind that this work on farms is seasonal and short-term, which is why they have used immigrant labor in the past. The reason farmers can't find domestic labor for these gigs is because it objectively sucks for what they get paid. Short term, manual labor, outdoors, poor pay, no benefits, far from home, all that for bosses that have been spoiled by a desperate workforce for decades. People aren't going to uproot their lives for such transient work unless it pays really well. I guess the word "itinerant" isn't in the vocabulary of those who live in the fantasy world where urban dwellers are going to just pack up their lives and move thousands of miles for a few weeks work.
	__________________ _{As democracy is perfected, the office represents, more and more closely, the inner soul of the people. We move toward a lofty ideal. On some great and glorious day the plain folks of the land will reach their heart's desire at last, and the White House will be adorned by a downright moron. - Henry Louis Mencken - Baltimore Evening Sun, July 26, 1920} Last edited by smartcooky; 5th November 2018 at 02:28 PM.

5th November 2018, 02:32 PM	#249
smartcooky Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Oct 2012 Location: Nelson, New Zealand Posts: 10,406	Originally Posted by Ziggurat What if you lived in Des Moines, Iowa, would it be easier to move to a farm in Iowa? If I lived in Des Moines, Iowa, I would already have a skilled job; in fact, I could take my pick of jobs. There is a severe worker shortage in Des Moines... https://www.wsj.com/articles/iowas-e...ple-1522580400 https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/ar...oyment/564527/ ... so I don't think urban dwellers are going to be moving from Des Moines to rural Iowa to work in numbers on farms any time soon; at least, not in the numbers required.
	__________________ _{As democracy is perfected, the office represents, more and more closely, the inner soul of the people. We move toward a lofty ideal. On some great and glorious day the plain folks of the land will reach their heart's desire at last, and the White House will be adorned by a downright moron. - Henry Louis Mencken - Baltimore Evening Sun, July 26, 1920} Last edited by smartcooky; 5th November 2018 at 02:34 PM.

5th November 2018, 02:38 PM	#250
smartcooky Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Oct 2012 Location: Nelson, New Zealand Posts: 10,406	Originally Posted by dudalb I wear that attacks I have received from the Holocaust Deniers and other assorted bigots here as a badge of honor. Yep. I think it was Joe Morgue who said "If I'm going to be somebody's boogeyman no matter what I do, then all I need to do is be the best person I can be and wear people's hatred as a badge of honor"
	__________________ _{As democracy is perfected, the office represents, more and more closely, the inner soul of the people. We move toward a lofty ideal. On some great and glorious day the plain folks of the land will reach their heart's desire at last, and the White House will be adorned by a downright moron. - Henry Louis Mencken - Baltimore Evening Sun, July 26, 1920}

5th November 2018, 02:40 PM	#251
JoeMorgue Self Employed Remittance Man Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Florida Posts: 16,049	Originally Posted by smartcooky Yep. I think it was Joe Morgue who said "If I'm going to be somebody's boogeyman no matter what I do, then all I need to do is be the best person I can be and wear people's hatred as a badge of honor" Twas' Right now the single most annoying people in "The discussion" are the people with a firm grasp on the simple fact that you can't please everyone yet stubbornly refuse to understand why you can't always please them.
	__________________ - "Ernest Hemingway once wrote that the world is a fine place and worth fighting for. I agree with the second part." - Detective Sommerset - "Stupidity does not cancel out stupidity to yield genius. It breeds like a bucket-full of coked out hamsters." - The Oatmeal - "To the best of my knowledge the only thing philosophy has ever proven is that Descartes could think." - SMBC

5th November 2018, 02:53 PM	#252
Ziggurat Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jun 2003 Posts: 41,949	So the NYT ran an editorial cartoon about Trump's border troop deployment, and in the process managed to illustrate that they have no clue what they're talking about: https://twitter.com/nytopinion/statu...46136807096320 Can you spot the obvious problem?
	__________________ "As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law

5th November 2018, 02:57 PM	#253
Upchurch Papa Funkosophy Join Date: May 2002 Location: St. Louis, MO Posts: 31,101	Originally Posted by Ziggurat So the NYT ran an editorial cartoon about Trump's border troop deployment, and in the process managed to illustrate that they have no clue what they're talking about: https://twitter.com/nytopinion/statu...46136807096320 Can you spot the obvious problem? Would your point be repeating the conservative echo chamber line that is represented in the replies to your link? Quote: NYT thinks our troops want to fight in the Middle East instead of protecting America's border.
	__________________ "There is nothing more deceptive than an obvious fact." -- Sherlock Holmes. "It’s easier to fool people than to convince them that they have been fooled." -- Mark Twain, maybe.

5th November 2018, 03:00 PM	#254
carlitos "más divertido" Join Date: Jul 2009 Posts: 19,302	Originally Posted by Ziggurat So the NYT ran an editorial cartoon about Trump's border troop deployment, and in the process managed to illustrate that they have no clue what they're talking about: https://twitter.com/nytopinion/statu...46136807096320 Can you spot the obvious problem? That someone posted a twitter link? ETA - There was a Rand Corporation survey on why people really enlist. Top reasons included Adventure / Travel, Job Training and "Call to Serve." ETA2- cartoon says "enroll" not enlist, which is odd.
	Last edited by carlitos; 5th November 2018 at 03:04 PM.

5th November 2018, 03:01 PM	#255
Ziggurat Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jun 2003 Posts: 41,949	Originally Posted by Upchurch Would your point be repeating the conservative echo chamber line that is represented in the replies to your link? Nope. The problem I'm referring to has got nothing to do with the middle east. In fact, it's got nothing to do with politics at all, at least not intrinsically. But I'm amused to see you didn't notice it either.
	__________________ "As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law

5th November 2018, 03:03 PM	#256
Ziggurat Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jun 2003 Posts: 41,949	Originally Posted by carlitos That someone posted a twitter link? I considered linking to the NYT's web page, but they actually figured out their screw up and fixed it there. The twitter version preserves it, though. But if you can't figure out the mistake on your own, well, you can compare the two versions and find out. Quote: ETA - There was a Rand Corporation survey on why people really enlist. Top reasons included Adventure / Travel, Job Training and "Call to Serve." The screw up isn't about why they enlist. But you're getting closer.
	__________________ "As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law

5th November 2018, 03:03 PM	#257
Upchurch Papa Funkosophy Join Date: May 2002 Location: St. Louis, MO Posts: 31,101	Originally Posted by Ziggurat Nope. The problem I'm referring to has got nothing to do with the middle east. In fact, it's got nothing to do with politics at all, at least not intrinsically. But I'm amused to see you didn't notice it either. Well, mind-reading has never been my strong suit. I guess, technically, it's no one's strong suit. My kids also liked playing guessing games where anything people guessed was wrong. Thankfully, they've grown out of it.
	__________________ "There is nothing more deceptive than an obvious fact." -- Sherlock Holmes. "It’s easier to fool people than to convince them that they have been fooled." -- Mark Twain, maybe.

5th November 2018, 03:06 PM	#258
LSSBB Devilish Dictionarian Join Date: Oct 2011 Location: An elusive house at Bachelors Grove Cemetery Posts: 19,950	Yay Zig, guessing games! I was going to compliment you on your reply to smartcooky regarding economics. Now I don't know if you are a single poster or a random collective.
	__________________ "You must not let your need to be right be more important than your need to find out what's true." - Ray Dalio, Principles

5th November 2018, 03:08 PM	#259
Ziggurat Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jun 2003 Posts: 41,949	Originally Posted by Upchurch Well, mind-reading has never been my strong suit. I guess, technically, it's no one's strong suit. My kids also liked playing guessing games where anything people guessed was wrong. Thankfully, they've grown out of it. Oh, but you don't have to guess at what I'm thinking. You can compare versions. The Twitter version has a mistake, the linked NYT page version has it fixed. No guessing is required, just some simple observation. Even if you don't know what's wrong with the Twitter version (and it's not complicated), just spot the change.
	__________________ "As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law

5th November 2018, 03:09 PM	#260
Dr. Keith Not a doctor. Join Date: Jun 2009 Location: Texas Posts: 17,832	Originally Posted by Ziggurat Nope. The problem I'm referring to has got nothing to do with the middle east. In fact, it's got nothing to do with politics at all, at least not intrinsically. But I'm amused to see you didn't notice it either. I'm pretty good at these: - the top red stripe on the flag is barely visible; - there are no stars on the flag; - Trump's hands are too large; - Trump's tie is too short; ETA: Enrolled v. enlisted: at least I was on the right track!
	__________________ I once proposed a fun ban. Suffering is not a punishment not a fruit of sin, it is a gift of God. He allows us to share in His suffering and to make up for the sins of the world. -Mother Teresa Last edited by Dr. Keith; 5th November 2018 at 03:11 PM.

5th November 2018, 03:12 PM	#261
Upchurch Papa Funkosophy Join Date: May 2002 Location: St. Louis, MO Posts: 31,101	Originally Posted by Ziggurat Oh, but you don't have to guess at what I'm thinking. You can compare versions. The Twitter version has a mistake, the linked NYT page version has it fixed. No guessing is required, just some simple observation. Even if you don't know what's wrong with the Twitter version (and it's not complicated), just spot the change. You're saying they don't know what they are talking about over... what? A typo? A typo they've apparently corrected? um... boo? Fake news?
	__________________ "There is nothing more deceptive than an obvious fact." -- Sherlock Holmes. "It’s easier to fool people than to convince them that they have been fooled." -- Mark Twain, maybe.

5th November 2018, 03:13 PM	#262
Ziggurat Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jun 2003 Posts: 41,949	Originally Posted by LSSBB Yay Zig, guessing games! I was going to compliment you on your reply to smartcooky regarding economics. Now I don't know if you are a single poster or a random collective. You, Upchurch and carlitos are a random collective. And none of you can spot the mistake. carlitos got so close, though. So if you still can't figure it out, I'll give you the answer. You enlist in the military, you don't enroll in it.
	__________________ "As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law

5th November 2018, 03:15 PM	#263
Ziggurat Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jun 2003 Posts: 41,949	Originally Posted by Upchurch You're saying they don't know what they are talking about over... what? A typo? A typo they've apparently corrected? um... boo? Fake news? A typo would be two l's in "enlisted". That wasn't a typo. And it can't be fake news since it's not news at all, it's a cartoon. But it does reveal a news organization that's out of touch with much of the country, since it never jumped out at either the cartoonist or his editors that nobody enrolls in the military. Apparently much of this board is similarly disconnected.
	__________________ "As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law

5th November 2018, 03:16 PM	#264
carlitos "más divertido" Join Date: Jul 2009 Posts: 19,302	Yeah, I noticed that (and said so above). Not sure what you mean by the "linked" NYT page "version" as I don't see an NYT link in this thread.

5th November 2018, 03:18 PM	#265
RecoveringYuppy Philosopher Join Date: Nov 2006 Posts: 8,344	Originally Posted by Ziggurat You, Upchurch and carlitos are a random collective. And none of you can spot the mistake. carlitos got so close, though. So if you still can't figure it out, I'll give you the answer. You enlist in the military, you don't enroll in it. That's truly pathetic that you think that's worth pointing out.
	__________________ REJ (Robert E Jones) posting anonymously under my real name for 30 years. Make a fire for a man and you keep him warm for a day. Set him on fire and you keep him warm for the rest of his life.

5th November 2018, 03:18 PM	#266
Ziggurat Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jun 2003 Posts: 41,949	Originally Posted by carlitos Yeah, I noticed that (and said so above). Not sure what you mean by the "linked" NYT page "version" as I don't see an NYT link in this thread. The link is in the tweet.
	__________________ "As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law

5th November 2018, 03:19 PM	#267
Ziggurat Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jun 2003 Posts: 41,949	Originally Posted by RecoveringYuppy That's truly pathetic that you think that's worth pointing out.
	__________________ "As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law

5th November 2018, 03:22 PM	#268
carlitos "más divertido" Join Date: Jul 2009 Posts: 19,302	P1 - If someone doesn't immediately notice a mistake in this cartoon, they are "disconnected" from the military and real Americans^TM P2 - OMG, it took like 12 minutes for someone on the ISF to notice the mistake on a twitter link they are probably viewing on their phone during the work day on a Monday C - This board is a bunch of disconnected liberals. That's some mighty weak logical sauce, my friend.

5th November 2018, 03:24 PM	#269
LSSBB Devilish Dictionarian Join Date: Oct 2011 Location: An elusive house at Bachelors Grove Cemetery Posts: 19,950	Originally Posted by Ziggurat You, Upchurch and carlitos are a random collective. And none of you can spot the mistake. carlitos got so close, though. So if you still can't figure it out, I'll give you the answer. You enlist in the military, you don't enroll in it. I didn't do either. I got Commissioned. So there.
	__________________ "You must not let your need to be right be more important than your need to find out what's true." - Ray Dalio, Principles

5th November 2018, 03:24 PM	#270
Upchurch Papa Funkosophy Join Date: May 2002 Location: St. Louis, MO Posts: 31,101	Originally Posted by Ziggurat A typo would be two l's in "enlisted". That wasn't a typo. And it can't be fake news since it's not news at all, it's a cartoon. But it does reveal a news organization that's out of touch with much of the country, since it never jumped out at either the cartoonist or his editors that nobody enrolls in the military. Apparently much of this board is similarly disconnected. Oh, you shore out thunk them New York boys! Har har! I forgot what a riot you could be. Not like an autocorrect could have possibly caused that, or anything. But moreover, tying that to being out of touch with much of the country? How do you put that together?
	__________________ "There is nothing more deceptive than an obvious fact." -- Sherlock Holmes. "It’s easier to fool people than to convince them that they have been fooled." -- Mark Twain, maybe.

5th November 2018, 03:24 PM	#271
carlitos "más divertido" Join Date: Jul 2009 Posts: 19,302	I heard that sometimes people got drafted too.

5th November 2018, 03:29 PM	#272
Ziggurat Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jun 2003 Posts: 41,949	Originally Posted by Upchurch Oh, you shore out thunk them New York boys! Har har! I forgot what a riot you could be. Not like an autocorrect could have possibly caused that, or anything. The lettering is hand drawn, it's not a font. Not sure how autocorrect works on that. Given the topic of this thread, though, it's funny that this is what y'all find unreasonable.
	__________________ "As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law

5th November 2018, 03:30 PM	#273
Ziggurat Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jun 2003 Posts: 41,949	Originally Posted by LSSBB I didn't do either. I got Commissioned. So there. Well played, good sir.
	__________________ "As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law

5th November 2018, 03:48 PM	#274
Upchurch Papa Funkosophy Join Date: May 2002 Location: St. Louis, MO Posts: 31,101	Originally Posted by Ziggurat The lettering is hand drawn, it's not a font. Not sure how autocorrect works on that. Argument from incredulity? Okay. This 8s neither the time nor place to explain something like this to you. Originally Posted by Ziggurat Given the topic of this thread, though, it's funny that this is what y'all find unreasonable. What's really wrong is Trump using troops for a political stunt unrelated to their duties.
	__________________ "There is nothing more deceptive than an obvious fact." -- Sherlock Holmes. "It’s easier to fool people than to convince them that they have been fooled." -- Mark Twain, maybe.

5th November 2018, 03:51 PM	#275
wareyin Philosopher Join Date: Oct 2013 Posts: 6,562	Originally Posted by baron That is one ridiculous argument. His workers essentially disappeared over night. That's what cause him the problem. If his workers had all been 5'8" tall, could we then conclude that it is impossible for him to harvest his crops with workers who are shorter or taller? What workers disappeared overnight? Why did they disappear?
wareyin Philosopher Join Date: Oct 2013 Posts: 6,562