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#241 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Sacramento
Posts: 42,629
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Pacifism is a shifty doctrine under which a man accepts the benefits of the social group without being willing to pay - and claims a halo for his dishonesty. Robert Heinlein. |
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#242 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 41,949
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If you can't, perhaps you shouldn't be in that business.
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The fact that you personally wouldn't consider it for less than $100/hr doesn't mean that anything close to $100/hr is what it would take to get a comparably large domestic work force.
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Even assuming an immediate deportation of every illegal immigrant, more than half the workforce would remain at current salary levels. Salary levels would increase to try to get more workers, and some fraction would be replaced with legal workers. Some farm businesses might close, but not all of them. And labor requirements are not uniformly distributed across the industry. They are heavily concentrated in crops where harvesting is not mechanized. The biggest US food crops (corn, wheat, soy, potatoes) are very mechanized, which means that they don't need a large labor force to begin with. Same with cotton and hay, which are major non-food crops. A heavily mechanized crop can absorb significant salary increases with pretty small product price increases. We can survive as a country even if the strawberry industry (for example) dies. But again, that's not a realistic scenario. We could get a decrease in incoming illegal immigration and an increase in illegal immigrants being deported or choosing to leave, and thus a net decrease in the illegal immigrant population over time. But that's not going to happen instantaneously. Furthermore, there are visa programs specifically for agricultural workers that could and likely would expand in such a scenario. So while there might well be negative consequences for the agricultural industry, as well as higher food prices for consumers, your doomsday scenario isn't really realistic. |
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"As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law |
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#243 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 41,949
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Transportation is a cost that needs to be included. But if that's all that's keeping urban jobless people from working on farms that need them, then somebody's going to fill that role. The farmers will pay directly for it if they have to, that's just a form of increased labor costs.
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"As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law |
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#244 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Mar 2016
Posts: 6,731
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The H-2A temporary visa program for agricultural workers has a lot of problems associated with it. The advocacy group Farmworker Justice is highly critical of it.
https://www.farmworkerjustice.org/si....a.6%20fwj.pdf
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#245 |
Devilish Dictionarian
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: An elusive house at Bachelors Grove Cemetery
Posts: 19,950
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"You must not let your need to be right be more important than your need to find out what's true." - Ray Dalio, Principles |
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#246 |
Graduate Poster
Join Date: Apr 2018
Location: Boston, USA
Posts: 1,086
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We also have to keep in mind that this work on farms is seasonal and short-term, which is why they have used immigrant labor in the past. The reason farmers can't find domestic labor for these gigs is because it objectively sucks for what they get paid. Short term, manual labor, outdoors, poor pay, no benefits, far from home, all that for bosses that have been spoiled by a desperate workforce for decades. People aren't going to uproot their lives for such transient work unless it pays really well.
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Gobble gobble |
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#247 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Aug 2010
Posts: 10,982
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#248 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Nelson, New Zealand
Posts: 10,406
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As democracy is perfected, the office represents, more and more closely, the inner soul of the people. We move toward a lofty ideal. On some great and glorious day the plain folks of the land will reach their heart's desire at last, and the White House will be adorned by a downright moron. - Henry Louis Mencken - Baltimore Evening Sun, July 26, 1920 |
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#249 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Nelson, New Zealand
Posts: 10,406
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If I lived in Des Moines, Iowa, I would already have a skilled job; in fact, I could take my pick of jobs.
There is a severe worker shortage in Des Moines... https://www.wsj.com/articles/iowas-e...ple-1522580400 https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/ar...oyment/564527/ ... so I don't think urban dwellers are going to be moving from Des Moines to rural Iowa to work in numbers on farms any time soon; at least, not in the numbers required. |
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As democracy is perfected, the office represents, more and more closely, the inner soul of the people. We move toward a lofty ideal. On some great and glorious day the plain folks of the land will reach their heart's desire at last, and the White House will be adorned by a downright moron. - Henry Louis Mencken - Baltimore Evening Sun, July 26, 1920 |
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#250 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Nelson, New Zealand
Posts: 10,406
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__________________
As democracy is perfected, the office represents, more and more closely, the inner soul of the people. We move toward a lofty ideal. On some great and glorious day the plain folks of the land will reach their heart's desire at last, and the White House will be adorned by a downright moron. - Henry Louis Mencken - Baltimore Evening Sun, July 26, 1920 |
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#251 |
Self Employed
Remittance Man Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Florida
Posts: 16,049
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- "Ernest Hemingway once wrote that the world is a fine place and worth fighting for. I agree with the second part." - Detective Sommerset - "Stupidity does not cancel out stupidity to yield genius. It breeds like a bucket-full of coked out hamsters." - The Oatmeal - "To the best of my knowledge the only thing philosophy has ever proven is that Descartes could think." - SMBC |
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#252 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 41,949
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So the NYT ran an editorial cartoon about Trump's border troop deployment, and in the process managed to illustrate that they have no clue what they're talking about:
https://twitter.com/nytopinion/statu...46136807096320 Can you spot the obvious problem? |
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"As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law |
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#253 |
![]() Join Date: May 2002
Location: St. Louis, MO
Posts: 31,101
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"There is nothing more deceptive than an obvious fact." -- Sherlock Holmes. "It’s easier to fool people than to convince them that they have been fooled." -- Mark Twain, maybe. |
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#254 |
"más divertido"
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 19,302
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That someone posted a twitter link?
ETA - There was a Rand Corporation survey on why people really enlist. Top reasons included Adventure / Travel, Job Training and "Call to Serve." ETA2- cartoon says "enroll" not enlist, which is odd. |
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#255 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 41,949
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"As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law |
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#256 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 41,949
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I considered linking to the NYT's web page, but they actually figured out their screw up and fixed it there. The twitter version preserves it, though. But if you can't figure out the mistake on your own, well, you can compare the two versions and find out.
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"As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law |
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#257 |
![]() Join Date: May 2002
Location: St. Louis, MO
Posts: 31,101
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__________________
"There is nothing more deceptive than an obvious fact." -- Sherlock Holmes. "It’s easier to fool people than to convince them that they have been fooled." -- Mark Twain, maybe. |
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#258 |
Devilish Dictionarian
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: An elusive house at Bachelors Grove Cemetery
Posts: 19,950
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Yay Zig, guessing games!
I was going to compliment you on your reply to smartcooky regarding economics. Now I don't know if you are a single poster or a random collective. |
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"You must not let your need to be right be more important than your need to find out what's true." - Ray Dalio, Principles |
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#259 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 41,949
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Oh, but you don't have to guess at what I'm thinking. You can compare versions. The Twitter version has a mistake, the linked NYT page version has it fixed. No guessing is required, just some simple observation. Even if you don't know what's wrong with the Twitter version (and it's not complicated), just spot the change.
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"As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law |
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#260 |
Not a doctor.
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Texas
Posts: 17,832
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#261 |
![]() Join Date: May 2002
Location: St. Louis, MO
Posts: 31,101
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"There is nothing more deceptive than an obvious fact." -- Sherlock Holmes. "It’s easier to fool people than to convince them that they have been fooled." -- Mark Twain, maybe. |
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#262 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 41,949
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__________________
"As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law |
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#263 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 41,949
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A typo would be two l's in "enlisted". That wasn't a typo.
And it can't be fake news since it's not news at all, it's a cartoon. But it does reveal a news organization that's out of touch with much of the country, since it never jumped out at either the cartoonist or his editors that nobody enrolls in the military. Apparently much of this board is similarly disconnected. |
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"As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law |
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#264 |
"más divertido"
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 19,302
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Yeah, I noticed that (and said so above). Not sure what you mean by the "linked" NYT page "version" as I don't see an NYT link in this thread.
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#265 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 8,344
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REJ (Robert E Jones) posting anonymously under my real name for 30 years. Make a fire for a man and you keep him warm for a day. Set him on fire and you keep him warm for the rest of his life. |
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#266 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 41,949
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__________________
"As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law |
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#267 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 41,949
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__________________
"As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law |
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#268 |
"más divertido"
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 19,302
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P1 - If someone doesn't immediately notice a mistake in this cartoon, they are "disconnected" from the military and real AmericansTM
P2 - OMG, it took like 12 minutes for someone on the ISF to notice the mistake on a twitter link they are probably viewing on their phone during the work day on a Monday C - This board is a bunch of disconnected liberals. That's some mighty weak logical sauce, my friend. ![]() |
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#269 |
Devilish Dictionarian
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: An elusive house at Bachelors Grove Cemetery
Posts: 19,950
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__________________
"You must not let your need to be right be more important than your need to find out what's true." - Ray Dalio, Principles |
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#270 |
![]() Join Date: May 2002
Location: St. Louis, MO
Posts: 31,101
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__________________
"There is nothing more deceptive than an obvious fact." -- Sherlock Holmes. "It’s easier to fool people than to convince them that they have been fooled." -- Mark Twain, maybe. |
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#271 |
"más divertido"
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 19,302
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I heard that sometimes people got drafted too.
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#272 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 41,949
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"As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law |
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#273 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 41,949
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__________________
"As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law |
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#274 |
![]() Join Date: May 2002
Location: St. Louis, MO
Posts: 31,101
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"There is nothing more deceptive than an obvious fact." -- Sherlock Holmes. "It’s easier to fool people than to convince them that they have been fooled." -- Mark Twain, maybe. |
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#275 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Oct 2013
Posts: 6,562
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#276 |
"más divertido"
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 19,302
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#277 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 8,449
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"I don't think I'm getting the most out of my computer. I turn it on... and use it as a light." - Harry Hill |
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#278 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Nelson, New Zealand
Posts: 10,406
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__________________
As democracy is perfected, the office represents, more and more closely, the inner soul of the people. We move toward a lofty ideal. On some great and glorious day the plain folks of the land will reach their heart's desire at last, and the White House will be adorned by a downright moron. - Henry Louis Mencken - Baltimore Evening Sun, July 26, 1920 |
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#279 |
![]() Join Date: May 2002
Location: St. Louis, MO
Posts: 31,101
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__________________
"There is nothing more deceptive than an obvious fact." -- Sherlock Holmes. "It’s easier to fool people than to convince them that they have been fooled." -- Mark Twain, maybe. |
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#280 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Oct 2013
Posts: 6,562
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It tells me they disappeared because of a crackdown on illegal immigrants. The thing* you asked for evidence of, but said the article didn't support. So now I'm wondering what the article told you.
*Yes, I know you asked for evidence of crops rotting in the field for lack of illegal immigrants. That tomato farmer is telling you that he doesn't have workers because of a crackdown on illegal immigrants, so his crops are rotting on the vine. Your previous response was asking about their height, for some reason that I assume made sense to you at the time. |
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