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Tags !MOD BOX WARNING! , Andrew McCabe , donald trump , George Papadopoulos , Michael Cohen , Paul Manafort , Robert Mueller , Trump controversies , Trump-Russia connections

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Old 11th February 2019, 05:57 AM   #4121
Belz...
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
If you aspired to loftier things, you would have a reputation as someone who has cared about justice reform here.

You don't seem to have that.

Get in line behind the people who have cared regardless who has been the target.
Ouch.
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Old 11th February 2019, 06:39 AM   #4122
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Originally Posted by Crossbow View Post
I find it best to be wary of individuals who speak of themselves in the third person.
Fast Eddie B agrees wholeheartedly!

(Somebody had to do it - it might as well be him!)
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Old 11th February 2019, 07:42 AM   #4123
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This could be a coincidence, or Mueller could have some hot stuff on tap this month.


Mueller asked Congress to postpone Michael Cohen's testimony until Feb 28, and Maria Buttina's sentencing hearing has been put off from Feb 12 until Feb 26.

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Old 11th February 2019, 08:45 AM   #4124
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It's being reported that long-time Deripaska associate Len Blavatnik donated $7m to Republican PACs between 2015 and 2017, including $3.5m to one associated with McConnell

Reminder: McConnell pushed for an end to sanctions on 3 companies tied to Deripaska, and Senate Republicans did end them.
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Old 11th February 2019, 08:48 AM   #4125
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Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim View Post
It's being reported that long-time Deripaska associate Len Blavatnik donated $7m to Republican PACs between 2015 and 2017, including $3.5m to one associated with McConnell

Reminder: McConnell pushed for an end to sanctions on 3 companies tied to Deripaska, and Senate Republicans did end them.


I said it: the man is a traitor. They should bring back hanging for those.

I wonder how far back this goes for McConnell. Might explain his actions under Obama, too.
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Old 11th February 2019, 08:57 AM   #4126
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post


I said it: the man is a traitor. They should bring back hanging for those.

I wonder how far back this goes for McConnell. Might explain his actions under Obama, too.
It is traitorous that a US citizen is donating to a PAC?
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Old 11th February 2019, 09:03 AM   #4127
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
It is traitorous that a US citizen is donating to a PAC?
Me: <punches Bob in the face>
Bob: Why the hell did you punch me? That's assault!
Me: Is it assault to stretch one's arm forward?

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Old 11th February 2019, 09:05 AM   #4128
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Me: <punches Bob in the face>
Bob: Why the hell did you punch me? That's assault!
Me: Is it assault to stretch one's arm forward?

What is the traitorous part of the article?
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Old 11th February 2019, 09:08 AM   #4129
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
It is traitorous that a US citizen is donating to a PAC?
Its a bit more complex than that.

Blavatnick may be a U.S. citizen, but:
- He had significant dealings with foreign business interests
- McConnell's actions in the senate helped some of those foreign business interests

So while there may have been an American citizen as an intermediary, it looks like McConnell took what amounted to a bribe financed by foreign interests

There is certainly more there than whatever Trump and the republicans are claiming when it comes to the Clinton/Uranium1 connection.
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Old 11th February 2019, 09:16 AM   #4130
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
What is the traitorous part of the article?
You must be mistaken. I didn't call the article a trator.
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Old 11th February 2019, 09:29 AM   #4131
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Originally Posted by Segnosaur View Post
Its a bit more complex than that.

Blavatnick may be a U.S. citizen, but:
- He had significant dealings with foreign business interests
- McConnell's actions in the senate helped some of those foreign business interests

So while there may have been an American citizen as an intermediary, it looks like McConnell took what amounted to a bribe financed by foreign interests

There is certainly more there than whatever Trump and the republicans are claiming when it comes to the Clinton/Uranium1 connection.
Some US citizens have foreign interests they would like the federal government to address. There is a magnitsky act because an American was friends with magnitsky. Is bill browder a traitor?

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Old 11th February 2019, 09:58 AM   #4132
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
Some US citizens have foreign interests they would like the federal government to address. There is a magnitsky act because an American was friends with magnitsky. Is bill browder a traitor?
“There’s good people on both sides.”
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Old 11th February 2019, 10:00 AM   #4133
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
Some US citizens have foreign interests they would like the federal government to address.
A private citizen wanting the government to address a particular issue is not a problem (even if that issue involves foreign interests).

The problem arises when that issue:

1- Gets more attention than it would normally get because of secondary issues (e.g. the politician is friends with the person wanting action, or in this case the person has contributed money to their re-election.)

2- results in actions that are detrimental to the country as a whole (or at least the citizens the politician represents), even if they do benefit the citizen asking for assistance. This is the case here. (Russians interfered with the American election process, and McConnell is taking actions that will embolden them to do so again, by removing punishments for those who had a part last time. And one of the beneficiaries of his action is someone who donated to his campaign.)

Quote:
There is a magnitsky act because an American was friends with magnitsky. Is bill browder a traitor?
Did Browder donate money specifically to get politicians elected that would be favorable to passing the Magnitsky act or similar legislation? No. (Putin did claim that he donated to Clinton's campaign, but that claim has been found to be false by Politifact.)

Is the implementation of the Magnitsky act harmful to the U.S.? No, in fact laws that prevent corruption are beneficial to the country (and the global economy) as a whole.

So no, totally different than the type of election payments to support McConnell's campaign, when McConnell is taking action to harm the U.S. election process.
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Old 11th February 2019, 10:45 AM   #4134
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McConnell has no excuse whatsoever, since he has been a member of the Gang of Eight for bloody forever - he knows exactly what Russia is doing in the US, or could every easily find out.
Traitor is the correct description, since Russia is clearly waging a kind of war against the West.
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Old 11th February 2019, 12:50 PM   #4135
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Originally Posted by Segnosaur View Post
Is the implementation of the Magnitsky act harmful to the U.S.? No, in fact laws that prevent corruption are beneficial to the country (and the global economy) as a whole.

So no, totally different than the type of election payments to support McConnell's campaign, when McConnell is taking action to harm the U.S. election process.
I'm unconvinced by this, but you shouldn't worry about that.
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Old 11th February 2019, 12:57 PM   #4136
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Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
McConnell has no excuse whatsoever, since he has been a member of the Gang of Eight for bloody forever - he knows exactly what Russia is doing in the US, or could every easily find out.
Traitor is the correct description, since Russia is clearly waging a kind of war against the West.
How do you know he doesn't think it is good for the US?
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Old 11th February 2019, 01:13 PM   #4137
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
How do you know he doesn't think it is good for the US?
Whether he personally thinks that its "good for the U.S." to be a puppet state of Russia is irrelevant. It would still make him a traitor to go against U.S. law (which much of this might be) in order to accomplish the goal. After all, I don't think the defense "I think its best if democracy to be subverted" is really a good argument to make.

And if he really thought it was a good idea? Then why is he not trying to bring about a change in the laws? (If he really thought it was good for the U.S. he could co-author the "Make Putin the president of the U.S." bill.) Instead, he's trying to skirt around the law and subverting it.
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Old 11th February 2019, 01:58 PM   #4138
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
How do you know he doesn't think it is good for the US?
Following the law comes before personal considerations for good or bad.
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Old 11th February 2019, 03:18 PM   #4139
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Originally Posted by Segnosaur View Post
Whether he personally thinks that its "good for the U.S." to be a puppet state of Russia is irrelevant. It would still make him a traitor to go against U.S. law (which much of this might be) in order to accomplish the goal. After all, I don't think the defense "I think its best if democracy to be subverted" is really a good argument to make.

And if he really thought it was a good idea? Then why is he not trying to bring about a change in the laws? (If he really thought it was good for the U.S. he could co-author the "Make Putin the president of the U.S." bill.) Instead, he's trying to skirt around the law and subverting it.
Did we read the same article? I didn't see anything about the law there.
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Old 11th February 2019, 04:04 PM   #4140
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Originally Posted by carlitos View Post
This could be a coincidence, or Mueller could have some hot stuff on tap this month.


Mueller asked Congress to postpone Michael Cohen's testimony until Feb 28, and Maria Buttina's sentencing hearing has been put off from Feb 12 until Feb 26.
Looks like Cohen's testimony could be delayed indefinitely due to medical reasons.

From: https://www.reuters.com/article/us-u...-idUSKCN1Q02F8
Testimony by U.S. President Donald Trump’s former lawyer Michael Cohen planned for Tuesday before the Senate Intelligence Committee has been postponed due to a recent medical procedure...
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Old 11th February 2019, 04:07 PM   #4141
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
Quote:
Whether he personally thinks that its "good for the U.S." to be a puppet state of Russia is irrelevant. It would still make him a traitor to go against U.S. law (which much of this might be) in order to accomplish the goal. After all, I don't think the defense "I think its best if democracy to be subverted" is really a good argument to make.

And if he really thought it was a good idea? Then why is he not trying to bring about a change in the laws? (If he really thought it was good for the U.S. he could co-author the "Make Putin the president of the U.S." bill.) Instead, he's trying to skirt around the law and subverting it.
Did we read the same article? I didn't see anything about the law there.
Not sure what your point is.

Zanganza brought up the issue of Russian interference in American elections (which is against the law). You stated "How do you know he doesn't think it is good for the US?". Sounded to me like you were suggesting McConnell thought intereference shouldn't be illegal.
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Old 11th February 2019, 04:55 PM   #4142
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post


I said it: the man is a traitor. They should bring back hanging for those.

I wonder how far back this goes for McConnell. Might explain his actions under Obama, too.
McConnell is a power hungry anti-democracy crusader desiring a one party state. I think they realized his goals lines up with theirs.
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Old 11th February 2019, 04:55 PM   #4143
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Originally Posted by Segnosaur View Post
Not sure what your point is.

Zanganza brought up the issue of Russian interference in American elections (which is against the law). You stated "How do you know he doesn't think it is good for the US?". Sounded to me like you were suggesting McConnell thought intereference shouldn't be illegal.
I thought the implication was that McConnell did something illegal.
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Old 12th February 2019, 10:57 AM   #4144
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Senate has uncovered no direct evidence of conspiracy between Trump campaign and Russia
"We were never going to find a contract signed in blood saying, 'Hey Vlad, we're going to collude,'" one Democratic aide said.
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Old 12th February 2019, 11:05 AM   #4145
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https://twitter.com/NatashaBertrand/...58723806191617

Quote:
Senate Intelligence Committee aide tells me, re: NBC story, that right now there is "a common set of facts" that the panel is working with, "and a disagreement about what those facts mean."
They add: "We are closer to the end than the beginning, but we're not wrapping up."

Re: the headline, "Senate has uncovered no direct evidence of conspiracy between Trump campaign and Russia," same aide says: "the word 'direct' is doing a lot of work here."
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Old 12th February 2019, 11:06 AM   #4146
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https://twitter.com/Mark_Buchanan_/s...63746137100290

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“Circumstantial evidence is not only sufficient, but may also be more certain, satisfying and persuasive than direct evidence.” Rogers v. Missouri Pacific R. Co., 352 U.S. 500, 508, n. 17, 77 S.Ct. 443, 1 L.Ed.2d 493 (1957).
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Old 12th February 2019, 11:31 AM   #4147
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
TBD is Actually criticizing Mueller and their propaganda stooges cnn, which goes way beyond the alleged minor process violations Stone was charged.
I've been browsing through the US Code, trying to understand how lying under oath and witness tampering are "minor process violations"

The truthfulness of witnesses in testimony is at the core of a civilised society's judicial system; when a witness lies, or encourages other witnesses to lie, it strikes at the very core of that justice system.

Witness tampering and lying under oath are serious crimes, not "minor process violations".
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Old 12th February 2019, 11:34 AM   #4148
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
Quote:
Not sure what your point is.

Zanganza brought up the issue of Russian interference in American elections (which is against the law). You stated "How do you know he doesn't think it is good for the US?". Sounded to me like you were suggesting McConnell thought intereference shouldn't be illegal.
I thought the implication was that McConnell did something illegal.
And its quite possible he did. (At least in my non-legal expert opinion.)

For example, if he did in fact end sanctions in exchange for campaign contributions that would probably be considered bribery.

And while its not illegal for American citizens to donate to political causes, its illegal to do so at the direction of foreign entities. That would be considered a campaign finance violation, and if McConnell had knowledge and assisted the transaction he might be considered a co-conspirator.
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Old 12th February 2019, 11:38 AM   #4149
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Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim View Post
It's being reported that long-time Deripaska associate Len Blavatnik donated $7m to Republican PACs between 2015 and 2017, including $3.5m to one associated with McConnell

Reminder: McConnell pushed for an end to sanctions on 3 companies tied to Deripaska, and Senate Republicans did end them.
It could also explain why McConnell been so deferential to Der Trumpenführer... they are in thing thing together.

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Old 12th February 2019, 11:43 AM   #4150
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Originally Posted by applecorped View Post
Senate has uncovered no direct evidence of conspiracy between Trump campaign and Russia
Are you really surprised that the people on the same team as Trump "found" nothing to kick him out of the team over?
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Old 12th February 2019, 11:49 AM   #4151
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Quote:
Originally Posted by applecorped
Senate has uncovered no direct evidence of conspiracy between Trump campaign and Russia


Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Are you really surprised that the people on the same team as Trump "found" nothing to kick him out of the team over?
Do turkeys vote for Christmas?
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Old 12th February 2019, 11:50 AM   #4152
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This Buzzfeed article clearly outlines how Trump ran his campaign in order to please Putin to get his Trump Tower Moscow, funding included.
https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article...en-sater-putin

There can be no doubt that Trump first and foremost had his business in mind, not US interests.
It's a typical case of Russia promising great rewards for cooperation, rewards that never materialize. It's standard spycraft.
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Old 12th February 2019, 12:12 PM   #4153
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Worth reading; how the media have failed to inform people about how the criminal justice system really works

https://twitter.com/SethAbramson/sta...55251371196416
No attorney with criminal law experience came into the Trump-Russia probe believing one of the conspirators would confess to Congress or that an explicit contract would be found. That absurd standard was set by non-attorney Trump supporters and was then *adopted by the media*.
There may be confessions in the Russia probe before it's over, but they will come *via Mueller's charges/deals*, not Congress—and no explicit contract for a conspiracy like this would ever be created, let alone found. We knew all this two years ago. The media pretended not to.
The journalists who misreported what Burr said to CBS and what it meant and how evidence works and the fact that most American criminal trials are in fact dominated by circumstantial or indirect evidence should be thoroughly ashamed of themselves. Rest assured, they are *not*.
The percent of U.S. criminal cases in which one finds a contract agreeing to commit a crime is *virtually zero*. Confessions are *common*—and are *exactly* what Mueller has been getting, behind closed doors, from people like Flynn, Gates, Papadopoulos, Nader, and many others.
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As democracy is perfected, the office represents, more and more closely, the inner soul of the people. We move toward a lofty ideal. On some great and glorious day the plain folks of the land will reach their heart's desire at last, and the White House will be adorned by a downright moron.
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Old 12th February 2019, 12:22 PM   #4154
The Big Dog
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
Worth reading; how the media have failed to inform people about how the criminal justice system really works

https://twitter.com/SethAbramson/sta...55251371196416
No attorney with criminal law experience came into the Trump-Russia probe believing one of the conspirators would confess to Congress or that an explicit contract would be found. That absurd standard was set by non-attorney Trump supporters and was then *adopted by the media*.
There may be confessions in the Russia probe before it's over, but they will come *via Mueller's charges/deals*, not Congress—and no explicit contract for a conspiracy like this would ever be created, let alone found. We knew all this two years ago. The media pretended not to.
The journalists who misreported what Burr said to CBS and what it meant and how evidence works and the fact that most American criminal trials are in fact dominated by circumstantial or indirect evidence should be thoroughly ashamed of themselves. Rest assured, they are *not*.
The percent of U.S. criminal cases in which one finds a contract agreeing to commit a crime is *virtually zero*. Confessions are *common*—and are *exactly* what Mueller has been getting, behind closed doors, from people like Flynn, Gates, Papadopoulos, Nader, and many others.
He cites no one who has literally ever said that. A "contract"? Is he really claiming that someone asserted that if there is no direct contract there is no direct evidence. That is profoundly specious and idiotic strawman the likes of which I cannot believe anymore. Why do people believe this grifter???
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Old 12th February 2019, 12:25 PM   #4155
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
I've been browsing through the US Code, trying to understand how lying under oath and witness tampering are "minor process violations"

The truthfulness of witnesses in testimony is at the core of a civilised society's judicial system; when a witness lies, or encourages other witnesses to lie, it strikes at the very core of that justice system.

Witness tampering and lying under oath are serious crimes, not "minor process violations".
If Mueller gets to the bottom of why so many people told so many lies, I bet it won't be "minor."
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Old 12th February 2019, 12:27 PM   #4156
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Say it with me people, Trump 2020!
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Old 12th February 2019, 12:28 PM   #4157
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
He cites no one who has literally ever said that. A "contract"? Is he really claiming that someone asserted that if there is no direct contract there is no direct evidence. That is profoundly specious and idiotic strawman the likes of which I cannot believe anymore. Why do people believe this grifter???
I thought this month it was "cow farts". Did you get the pages stuck together?
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Old 12th February 2019, 12:29 PM   #4158
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Grifter........... the new racist dog whistle?



Coming to a snowflake near you
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Old 12th February 2019, 12:56 PM   #4159
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Originally Posted by applecorped View Post
Senate has uncovered no direct evidence of conspiracy between Trump campaign and Russia
"We were never going to find a contract signed in blood saying, 'Hey Vlad, we're going to collude,'" one Democratic aide said.

As would normally be the expectation. However, given the propensity for some of these people to speak, even publicly, directly to intent, when best left unsaid. Doesn't bode well for what was said privately and potentially recorded or documented. Even if I were amongst them I doubt I could speak in such absolutes given the apparent inability of some of the people to just shut the heck up about their intents when needed. Also given the potential of the Trump tower deal pursuit, a contract signed in something or other may have been an end goal, so also a potential topic of discussion documentation.

ETA: Case in point the recorded conversation between Trump and Cohen about using the other guy for payments. Using a cutout is always a good idea. Having a detailed conversation about using that cutout and their criticality, not such a great idea.
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Last edited by The Man; 12th February 2019 at 01:02 PM.
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Old 12th February 2019, 01:30 PM   #4160
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Originally Posted by applecorped View Post
Grifter........... the new racist dog whistle?







Coming to a snowflake near you
Trump University. Trump steaks. Trump inauguration fraud. Trump casino. Trump is a grifter.
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