2018/2019 US Federal Government Shutdown - Page 10

The Great Zaganza · 9th January 2019, 12:51 AM

Originally Posted by Tsukasa Buddha

They completely left the emotional appeal to Trump. Pelosi is a great deal maker and Speaker, but she absolutely can't be a party leader.

They both made a good job of highlighting that Trump is isolated, politically. This won't convince the Trumpsters that he is in the wrong, but then nothing ever could.
Most importantly, they were brief and sounded pragmatic - they made a good case of being the adults in the room.

uke2se · 9th January 2019, 01:02 AM

Originally Posted by mgidm86

The wall needs to be about 30 miles or so north of Los Angeles. That would be much better, though for different reasons.

It was a poorly delivered speech even for Trump but he painted a pretty accurate picture of the overall situation. Ya I get it that some disagree. I've said my piece on here enough already recently.

Trump should know by now that there is no point in him giving in on anything. Ever. No matter what Trump does, now matter how much he compromises, the Democrats will never hate him any less than they currently do, and the press will continue to crucify him on a daily basis.

If properly played (gigantic IF), this shutdown could be worked to hurt the Dems more than the Repubs. The again things are so polarized - pfft.

I don't even know what planet you live on.

BobTheCoward · 9th January 2019, 05:07 AM

Originally Posted by mgidm86

The wall needs to be about 30 miles or so north of Los Angeles. That would be much better, though for different reasons.

It was a poorly delivered speech even for Trump but he painted a pretty accurate picture of the overall situation. Ya I get it that some disagree. I've said my piece on here enough already recently.

Trump should know by now that there is no point in him giving in on anything. Ever. No matter what Trump does, now matter how much he compromises, the Democrats will never hate him any less than they currently do, and the press will continue to crucify him on a daily basis.

If properly played (gigantic IF), this shutdown could be worked to hurt the Dems more than the Repubs. The again things are so polarized - pfft.

The whole point of compromise is you don't need to be liked to get what you want. If he values the wall, he can offer something valuable in return and nothing about being hated would matter.

fagin · 9th January 2019, 06:38 AM

Originally Posted by BobTheCoward

The whole point of compromise is you don't need to be liked to get what you want. If he values the wall, he can offer something valuable in return and nothing about being hated would matter.

Jake Blues

"I want to buy your women... the little girl... your daughters. Sell them to me. Sell me your children."

Belz... · 9th January 2019, 10:05 AM

Originally Posted by theprestige

Good. Since this appears to be the only way to get smaller federal government, even temporarily, I'll take it. Perhaps when the dust settles we'll have a slightly better idea of what we actually need the government to do.

I propose that the US either drop states altogether and function as a single entity, or drop the federal system and just let the states govern themselves in a more open union. Tell you what, the northern, eastern and western states can try the full federal option and the central and southern states can try a confederacy. Come back with your results.

Belz... · 9th January 2019, 10:43 AM

Originally Posted by acbytesla

The problem of course is throwing 5 billion dollars down a toilet defensible? And let's be
truthful, we are dealing both with an idiot and a terrorist. If you pay him now, he'll only try this again.

I have to at least partly concur with Prestige's line of argument here: knowing he would shutdown without funding for his ridiculous wall, do you think that the shutdown is a lesser evil or not?

You seem to disagree with the shutdown AND with funding the wall to avoid said shutdown. Trump's the president, so what's the third option? If it's "wait him out", then shutdown is your choice.

The Great Zaganza · 9th January 2019, 10:46 AM

Originally Posted by Belz...

I have to at least partly concur with Prestige's line of argument here: knowing he would shutdown without funding for his ridiculous wall, do you think that the shutdown is a lesser evil or not?

You seem to disagree with the shutdown AND with funding the wall to avoid said shutdown. Trump's the president, so what's the third option? If it's "wait him out", then shutdown is your choice.

This is the least painful kind of shutdown, more limited than the ones before. If you want to make a stand against Trump, this might be the best chance you've got.

Belz... · 9th January 2019, 10:57 AM

Originally Posted by mgidm86

Five billion is not a lot of money people, it's like 10 miles of high speed rail here in Cali

What a laugh. It's pocket change.

I don't care who pays for it and whether it is a wall or something else, but something needs to be done.

If you really believe so, then you should be sufficiently informed to know that the 'problem' with illigal immigration is that people who enter the country legally overstay their visas. They don't sneak in from behind bushes.

Originally Posted by Arcade22

The drafters of the US constitution sure were a bunch of incompetents for not making sure that the previous budget of public institutions would automatically continue to be applied on an interim basis in order to prevent situations just such as this from occurring. Disgraceful.

Sometimes it seems to me like they weren't quite as adept at crafting government as some people make them out to be.

Originally Posted by acbytesla

I agree with this entirely. There is no reason why the entire Western Hemisphere can't be prosperous.

Indeed, though one should note that if everyone is prosperous, you might see the value of your income go down substantially. If that's an acceptable deal, then fine.

Delphic Oracle · 9th January 2019, 10:57 AM

Originally Posted by Belz...

I have to at least partly concur with Prestige's line of argument here: knowing he would shutdown without funding for his ridiculous wall, do you think that the shutdown is a lesser evil or not?

You seem to disagree with the shutdown AND with funding the wall to avoid said shutdown. Trump's the president, so what's the third option? If it's "wait him out", then shutdown is your choice.

"I'm being intransigent, so it's your fault" has never held water with me.

acbytesla · 9th January 2019, 10:59 AM

Originally Posted by Belz...

I have to at least partly concur with Prestige's line of argument here: knowing he would shutdown without funding for his ridiculous wall, do you think that the shutdown is a lesser evil or not?

You seem to disagree with the shutdown AND with funding the wall to avoid said shutdown. Trump's the president, so what's the third option? If it's "wait him out", then shutdown is your choice.

Belz, I don't know. I do disagree with both. I find it obscene that Trump has decided to play this game. It is reckless and dangerous. I'm also not sure what is the wisest course of action in dealing with the crazy man. I'm afraid, he'll do this again if he gets his way.

There simply isn't a good choice.

JoeMorgue · 9th January 2019, 11:01 AM

Originally Posted by Belz...

Sometimes it seems to me like they weren't quite as adept at crafting government as some people make them out to be.

I think the fact that they were so certain to put specific methods (outside of the traiditonal lovely methods of coups and revolutions) into the highest law of the land for how to, within the system, change every part of the highest law of the land often gets missed.

Outside of putting a giant flashing neon sign over the Constitution that said "SUBJECT TO FUTURE REVISION" I don't know how the Founding Fathers could have made "Hey guys feel free to change anything we've put down that doesn't work in the future" any clearer.

acbytesla · 9th January 2019, 11:04 AM

Originally Posted by acbytesla

I agree with this entirely. There is no reason why the entire Western Hemisphere can't be prosperous.

Originally Posted by Belz...

Indeed, though one should note that if everyone is prosperous, you might see the value of your income go down substantially. If that's an acceptable deal, then fine.

'Might go down' is questionable and 'might go up' is also possible. I don't think it's a zero sum game.

ponderingturtle · 9th January 2019, 11:19 AM

Originally Posted by acbytesla

Belz, I don't know. I do disagree with both. I find it obscene that Trump has decided to play this game. It is reckless and dangerous. I'm also not sure what is the wisest course of action in dealing with the crazy man. I'm afraid, he'll do this again if he gets his way.

Of course he proved it is a winning negotiating strategy. Makes using it when ever you want to win great.

And of course McConnell isn't even letting them vote on the bill Trump vetoed so that they could fund the government by overriding Trump.

So there are plenty of workable ways that the government could be reopened with out the wall, that Trump couldn't even get his own party to support. Why blame the democrats for what is clearly the republicans doing?

If McConnell just let the previous funding bill come to a vote in this congress it would be easy.

Belz... · 9th January 2019, 11:24 AM

Originally Posted by TragicMonkey

When Mitch is subjected to extreme stress he starts leaking embalming fluid through his seams.

I really had to work hard not to laugh out loud at my workdesk, now.

Originally Posted by Tsukasa Buddha

McConnell has been shifting responsibility to Trump for the shutdown, probably because he knows it is a losing hand. He's another completely insincere actor.

McConnell is possibly most responsible for the current state of affairs in US politics out of anyone in the last 20 years.

Originally Posted by thaiboxerken

Probably not. The "liberal" media bends over backwards to give Republican leaders air-time.

They do make for great entertainment.

Belz... · 9th January 2019, 11:29 AM

Originally Posted by Delphic Oracle

"I'm being intransigent, so it's your fault" has never held water with me.

Nor with me, but when you're dealing with the intransigent, what are your options? Which one do you take? You can complain about them all you want but at the end of the day you have to choose and stay the course.

Originally Posted by acbytesla

'Might go down' is questionable and 'might go up' is also possible. I don't think it's a zero sum game.

The point isn't the zero sum game. It's that if the country's prosperous, wages will go up. A lot. And your 5$ shirt won't cost 5$ dollars anymore. Sure, jobs might come back into the country, but you'll have to accept that, because everything made everywhere costs more, you'll effectively be poorer.

Would that be a better world? Probably. But the point is to understand the consequences of actions and accept them.

Brainache · 9th January 2019, 02:14 PM

I think it's up to Congress and the Senate to just build a wall around Donald Trump.

JoeMorgue · 9th January 2019, 02:18 PM

Government shutdown stops FDA food safety inspections

NBC: https://www.nbcnews.com/health/healt...ctions-n956716

Quote:

The ongoing federal government shutdown has stopped most food safety inspections, but the Food and Drug Administration is planning to resume at least some of them. To do it, the agency will have to force furloughed workers to come back without pay.

FDA Commissioner Dr. Scott Gottlieb said he is trying to pinpoint the most essential inspections, while making sure that employees do not suffer too much.

acbytesla · 9th January 2019, 02:34 PM

Originally Posted by Belz...

The point isn't the zero sum game. It's that if the country's prosperous, wages will go up. A lot. And your 5$ shirt won't cost 5$ dollars anymore. Sure, jobs might come back into the country, but you'll have to accept that, because everything made everywhere costs more, you'll effectively be poorer.

Would that be a better world? Probably. But the point is to understand the consequences of actions and accept them.

I don't necessarily disagree. But I don't see that as the big issue. It's amazing how much is done with automation which threatens even those low wage jobs in the poorest of countries today.

JoeMorgue · 9th January 2019, 02:40 PM

A post... errrr "grunt work" world (probably a better name for it) is one of those things that it's a lot easier to imagine living in then imaging living in the transitional period it takes to get to that world.

Everybody wants to live in a world where nobody has to do dangerous, boring, unpleasant, etc jobs. Nobody wants to in the world those jobs still exist but there's not enough of them to go around so some people have to do them and some don't and you wind up in the "have to" camp.

Stacyhs · 9th January 2019, 05:57 PM

Originally Posted by Brainache

I think it's up to ~~Congress~~ the House and the Senate to just build a wall around Donald Trump.

I think you had a brain fart.

zorro99 · 9th January 2019, 06:03 PM

There is no crisis or emergency at the border.

Stacyhs · 9th January 2019, 06:07 PM

Originally Posted by zorro99

There is no crisis or emergency at the border.

Not to hear Trump and his people talk. They use the word "crisis" every time they mention the border. It's the old "tell a lie often enough and people will start to believe it" tactic.

Foolmewunz · 9th January 2019, 06:38 PM

Originally Posted by Stacyhs

Not to hear Trump and his people talk. They use the word "crisis" every time they mention the border. It's the old "tell a lie often enough and people will start to believe it" tactic.

Are they trying to manufacture a crisis by not choosing a safe red district for their border show tomorrow? McAllen is not exactly a hotbed of Trump support. They have a Republican congressman but he's not in the Trump camp and has found other things to do rather than carry bags for Trump/Cruz/Cronyn. And the mayor is totally against the shutdown. I'm just wondering if Trump's "strategists"(for certain strange meanings of that word) are hoping for a bunch of crazed antifa thugs and baby-rapers and gangstas to help them by staging a riot.

His usual safe-zone instinct is to go to rural red districts (check out a map of his rallies in Florida). There are only a few left because just about the whole TX/MX border voted against him, but he could've found a safer one.

Stacyhs · 9th January 2019, 06:54 PM

Originally Posted by Foolmewunz

Are they trying to manufacture a crisis by not choosing a safe red district for their border show tomorrow? McAllen is not exactly a hotbed of Trump support. They have a Republican congressman but he's not in the Trump camp and has found other things to do rather than carry bags for Trump/Cruz/Cronyn. And the mayor is totally against the shutdown. I'm just wondering if Trump's "strategists"(for certain strange meanings of that word) are hoping for a bunch of crazed antifa thugs and baby-rapers and gangstas to help them by staging a riot.

His usual safe-zone instinct is to go to rural red districts (check out a map of his rallies in Florida). There are only a few left because just about the whole TX/MX border voted against him, but he could've found a safer one.

It's always possible with Trump. Crazy is his specialty.

Norman Alexander · 9th January 2019, 07:04 PM

From a Vanity Fair article linked by Squeegee Beckenheim in another thread:

Quote:

Another prominent Republican close to Senate Majority Leader Mitch McConnell described Trump’s handling of the shutdown as “total ******* chaos.”

Seems even The Turtle is reaching the end of his tether, no matter what he says publicly.

Norman Alexander · 9th January 2019, 07:07 PM

Originally Posted by Stacyhs

Not to hear Trump and his people talk. They use the word "crisis" every time they mention the border. It's the old "tell a lie often enough and people will start to believe it" tactic.

The crisis is really that they can't find anything on the border to manufacturer a crisis about. Failing that, they are trying to conjure one up out of thin air by shutting down government, but everyone is seeing through that trick now. The only REAL crisis they are facing is coming slowly but surely from Bob Mueller's office. And that one they can't talk about.

acbytesla · 9th January 2019, 07:12 PM

Originally Posted by Norman Alexander

The crisis is really that they can't find anything on the border to manufacturer a crisis about. Failing that, they are trying to conjure one up out of thin air by shutting down government, but everyone is seeing through that trick now. The only REAL crisis they are facing is coming slowly but surely from Bob Mueller's office. And that one they can't talk about.

O'Rourke hits El Paso streets to rebut Trump's immigration address

Quote:

“The president using fear and anecdote to try to instill an anxiety and paranoia to build the political will to construct this wall that would cost $30 billion and take private property and cause death and suffering as more asylum seekers are pushed to ever more hostile stretches of the U.S.-Mexico border — that was what we heard from the Oval Office,” O’Rourke said. “And we need to meet that fear with the truth, with our ambition, with the best traditions of this country, a country of immigrants, and with the example of El Paso and Juárez.”
https://www.politico.com/amp/story/2...-trump-1089194

If ever there was a time to put BETO front and center it is right now. Read the rest of the article.

Delphic Oracle · 9th January 2019, 07:23 PM

Originally Posted by acbytesla

Belz, I don't know. I do disagree with both. I find it obscene that Trump has decided to play this game. It is reckless and dangerous. I'm also not sure what is the wisest course of action in dealing with the crazy man. I'm afraid, he'll do this again if he gets his way.

There simply isn't a good choice.

When none of the choices available provide advantage is one of the few times in life where you can do the right thing without a cost.

Norman Alexander · 9th January 2019, 07:28 PM

Originally Posted by Delphic Oracle

When none of the choices available provide advantage is one of the few times in life where you can do the right thing without a cost.

That would be sensible, and require introspection.

Can you see Trump doing either of those?

dudalb · 9th January 2019, 07:36 PM

Originally Posted by Norman Alexander

The crisis is really that they can't find anything on the border to manufacturer a crisis about. Failing that, they are trying to conjure one up out of thin air by shutting down government, but everyone is seeing through that trick now. The only REAL crisis they are facing is coming slowly but surely from Bob Mueller's office. And that one they can't talk about.

It has been suggested that the shutdown crisis distracts attention from the Mueller probe has not escaped Donald Trump.....

dudalb · 9th January 2019, 07:39 PM

Originally Posted by acbytesla

O'Rourke hits El Paso streets to rebut Trump's immigration address

If ever there was a time to put BETO front and center it is right now. Read the rest of the article.

Because Beto is good at getting himself on the news is not sufficient reason to anoint him as the Dems Candidate in 2020.
Of course the experience with Trump has made me very supiscious of any personality cult...and I see forming around Beto.

JoeMorgue · 9th January 2019, 07:42 PM

Looks like some GOP members are starting to consider trying make a deal with the Democrats without the President, floating the idea of offering the Democrats concessions on such long desired political goals as the "Dreamer" Program and H-2B Visas in exchange for funding Trump's wall.

CNN: https://www.cnn.com/2019/01/09/polit...ors/index.html

acbytesla · 9th January 2019, 07:47 PM

Originally Posted by Delphic Oracle

When none of the choices available provide advantage is one of the few times in life where you can do the right thing without a cost.

But of course the real conundrum is not that there may not be one better option, but the difficulty of knowing what that is.

One of my pet peeves is Monday morning quarterbacking. Second guessing those that Teddy Roosevelt said "that are in the Arena" For example, all those people that second guessed the pass at the end of the Seahawks Patriots Super Bowl that was intercepted.

Sure it's easy to say they should have done the obvious and run Marshawn Lynch. But that is hindsight. No one would have said anything if that pass had gone for a touchdown or was incomplete.

acbytesla · 9th January 2019, 07:50 PM

Originally Posted by dudalb

Because Beto is good at getting himself on the news is not sufficient reason to anoint him as the Dems Candidate in 2020.
Of course the experience with Trump has made me very supiscious of any personality cult...and I see forming around Beto.

Here's the thing though. Beto was a Congressman from El Paso. He grew up in that border town. On this issue he has standing. And he's one he'll of a lot more charismatic and persuasive than Pelosi and Schumer.

Delphic Oracle · 9th January 2019, 07:57 PM

Originally Posted by Norman Alexander

That would be sensible, and require introspection.

Can you see Trump doing either of those?

I was taking from the perspective of someone wondering "how to deal with this crazy man."

Norman Alexander · 9th January 2019, 07:58 PM

Originally Posted by JoeMorgue

Looks like some GOP members are starting to consider trying make a deal with the Democrats without the President, floating the idea of offering the Democrats concessions on such long desired political goals as the "Dreamer" Program and H-2B Visas in exchange for funding Trump's wall.

CNN: https://www.cnn.com/2019/01/09/polit...ors/index.html

They already had that deal signed, sealed and nearly delivered three weeks ago. It's the one Trump refused to sign after listening to the voices on TV.

Delphic Oracle · 9th January 2019, 08:01 PM

Originally Posted by acbytesla

Here's the thing though. Beto was a Congressman from El Paso. He grew up in that border town. On this issue he has standing. And he's one he'll of a lot more charismatic and persuasive than Pelosi and Schumer.

Agreed.

He also needs to get off script. Beto tossing out data points and a few poll tested paeans isn't going to cut it.

He's got to talk about his life experience. He has to be a face and a voice to a different perspective.

ETA: for all the people in front of the cameras in media the Democrats know, they sure as **** don't seem like they know any of the people who know how to do multimedia production and marketing AT ALL.

dudalb · 9th January 2019, 08:03 PM

Beto Is alos gong to have to show he can appeal to voters outside the Democratic Base.
And he has got to start showing us where he stands on issues other then those he has campaigned on.

BobTheCoward · 9th January 2019, 08:27 PM

Originally Posted by dudalb

Beto Is alos gong to have to show he can appeal to voters outside the Democratic Base.
And he has got to start showing us where he stands on issues other then those he has campaigned on.

Didnt he do that by doing so well in Texas?

acbytesla · 9th January 2019, 08:49 PM

Shutdown is about to get more real with almost a million workers about to miss a pay-check.

9th January 2019, 12:51 AM	#361
The Great Zaganza Maledictorian Join Date: Aug 2016 Posts: 7,919	Originally Posted by Tsukasa Buddha They completely left the emotional appeal to Trump. Pelosi is a great deal maker and Speaker, but she absolutely can't be a party leader. They both made a good job of highlighting that Trump is isolated, politically. This won't convince the Trumpsters that he is in the wrong, but then nothing ever could. Most importantly, they were brief and sounded pragmatic - they made a good case of being the adults in the room.
	__________________ Opinion is divided on the subject. All the others say it is; I say it isn’t.

9th January 2019, 01:02 AM	#362
uke2se Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jan 2010 Posts: 12,573	Originally Posted by mgidm86 The wall needs to be about 30 miles or so north of Los Angeles. That would be much better, though for different reasons. It was a poorly delivered speech even for Trump but he painted a pretty accurate picture of the overall situation. Ya I get it that some disagree. I've said my piece on here enough already recently. Trump should know by now that there is no point in him giving in on anything. Ever. No matter what Trump does, now matter how much he compromises, the Democrats will never hate him any less than they currently do, and the press will continue to crucify him on a daily basis. If properly played (gigantic IF), this shutdown could be worked to hurt the Dems more than the Repubs. The again things are so polarized - pfft. I don't even know what planet you live on.
	__________________ Before you say something stupid about climate change, check this list. "If we extend unlimited tolerance even to those who are intolerant, if we are not prepared to defend a tolerant society against the onslaught of the intolerant, then the tolerant will be destroyed, and tolerance with them. " Karl Popper, The Open Society and Its Enemies Vol. 1

9th January 2019, 06:38 AM	#364
fagin Philosopher Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: As far away from casebro as possible. Posts: 7,070	Originally Posted by BobTheCoward The whole point of compromise is you don't need to be liked to get what you want. If he values the wall, he can offer something valuable in return and nothing about being hated would matter. Jake Blues "I want to buy your women... the little girl... your daughters. Sell them to me. Sell me your children."
	__________________ There is no secret ingredient - Kung Fu Panda

9th January 2019, 10:05 AM	#365
Belz... Fiend God Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: In the details Posts: 81,370	Originally Posted by theprestige Good. Since this appears to be the only way to get smaller federal government, even temporarily, I'll take it. Perhaps when the dust settles we'll have a slightly better idea of what we actually need the government to do. I propose that the US either drop states altogether and function as a single entity, or drop the federal system and just let the states govern themselves in a more open union. Tell you what, the northern, eastern and western states can try the full federal option and the central and southern states can try a confederacy. Come back with your results.
	__________________ Master of the Shining Darkness "My views are nonsense. So what?" - BobTheCoward

9th January 2019, 10:43 AM	#366
Belz... Fiend God Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: In the details Posts: 81,370	Originally Posted by acbytesla The problem of course is throwing 5 billion dollars down a toilet defensible? And let's be truthful, we are dealing both with an idiot and a terrorist. If you pay him now, he'll only try this again. I have to at least partly concur with Prestige's line of argument here: knowing he would shutdown without funding for his ridiculous wall, do you think that the shutdown is a lesser evil or not? You seem to disagree with the shutdown AND with funding the wall to avoid said shutdown. Trump's the president, so what's the third option? If it's "wait him out", then shutdown is your choice.
	__________________ Master of the Shining Darkness "My views are nonsense. So what?" - BobTheCoward

9th January 2019, 05:07 AM	#363
BobTheCoward Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Nov 2010 Posts: 16,610	Originally Posted by mgidm86 The wall needs to be about 30 miles or so north of Los Angeles. That would be much better, though for different reasons. It was a poorly delivered speech even for Trump but he painted a pretty accurate picture of the overall situation. Ya I get it that some disagree. I've said my piece on here enough already recently. Trump should know by now that there is no point in him giving in on anything. Ever. No matter what Trump does, now matter how much he compromises, the Democrats will never hate him any less than they currently do, and the press will continue to crucify him on a daily basis. If properly played (gigantic IF), this shutdown could be worked to hurt the Dems more than the Repubs. The again things are so polarized - pfft. The whole point of compromise is you don't need to be liked to get what you want. If he values the wall, he can offer something valuable in return and nothing about being hated would matter.

9th January 2019, 10:46 AM	#367
The Great Zaganza Maledictorian Join Date: Aug 2016 Posts: 7,919	Originally Posted by Belz... I have to at least partly concur with Prestige's line of argument here: knowing he would shutdown without funding for his ridiculous wall, do you think that the shutdown is a lesser evil or not? You seem to disagree with the shutdown AND with funding the wall to avoid said shutdown. Trump's the president, so what's the third option? If it's "wait him out", then shutdown is your choice. This is the least painful kind of shutdown, more limited than the ones before. If you want to make a stand against Trump, this might be the best chance you've got.
	__________________ Opinion is divided on the subject. All the others say it is; I say it isn’t.

9th January 2019, 10:57 AM	#368
Belz... Fiend God Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: In the details Posts: 81,370	Originally Posted by mgidm86 Five billion is not a lot of money people, it's like 10 miles of high speed rail here in Cali What a laugh. It's pocket change. I don't care who pays for it and whether it is a wall or something else, but something needs to be done. If you really believe so, then you should be sufficiently informed to know that the 'problem' with illigal immigration is that people who enter the country legally overstay their visas. They don't sneak in from behind bushes. Originally Posted by Arcade22 The drafters of the US constitution sure were a bunch of incompetents for not making sure that the previous budget of public institutions would automatically continue to be applied on an interim basis in order to prevent situations just such as this from occurring. Disgraceful. Sometimes it seems to me like they weren't quite as adept at crafting government as some people make them out to be. Originally Posted by acbytesla I agree with this entirely. There is no reason why the entire Western Hemisphere can't be prosperous. Indeed, though one should note that if everyone is prosperous, you might see the value of your income go down substantially. If that's an acceptable deal, then fine.
	__________________ Master of the Shining Darkness "My views are nonsense. So what?" - BobTheCoward

9th January 2019, 10:57 AM	#369
Delphic Oracle Master Poster Join Date: Sep 2016 Posts: 2,993	Originally Posted by Belz... I have to at least partly concur with Prestige's line of argument here: knowing he would shutdown without funding for his ridiculous wall, do you think that the shutdown is a lesser evil or not? You seem to disagree with the shutdown AND with funding the wall to avoid said shutdown. Trump's the president, so what's the third option? If it's "wait him out", then shutdown is your choice. "I'm being intransigent, so it's your fault" has never held water with me.

9th January 2019, 10:59 AM	#370
acbytesla Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Dec 2012 Posts: 21,298	Originally Posted by Belz... I have to at least partly concur with Prestige's line of argument here: knowing he would shutdown without funding for his ridiculous wall, do you think that the shutdown is a lesser evil or not? You seem to disagree with the shutdown AND with funding the wall to avoid said shutdown. Trump's the president, so what's the third option? If it's "wait him out", then shutdown is your choice. Belz, I don't know. I do disagree with both. I find it obscene that Trump has decided to play this game. It is reckless and dangerous. I'm also not sure what is the wisest course of action in dealing with the crazy man. I'm afraid, he'll do this again if he gets his way. There simply isn't a good choice.
	__________________ “ A wise man proportions his belief to the evidence. ” ― David Hume

9th January 2019, 11:01 AM	#371
JoeMorgue Self Employed Remittance Man Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Florida Posts: 17,467	Originally Posted by Belz... Sometimes it seems to me like they weren't quite as adept at crafting government as some people make them out to be. I think the fact that they were so certain to put specific methods (outside of the traiditonal lovely methods of coups and revolutions) into the highest law of the land for how to, within the system, change every part of the highest law of the land often gets missed. Outside of putting a giant flashing neon sign over the Constitution that said "SUBJECT TO FUTURE REVISION" I don't know how the Founding Fathers could have made "Hey guys feel free to change anything we've put down that doesn't work in the future" any clearer.
	__________________ - "Ernest Hemingway once wrote that the world is a fine place and worth fighting for. I agree with the second part." - Detective Sommerset - "Stupidity does not cancel out stupidity to yield genius. It breeds like a bucket-full of coked out hamsters." - The Oatmeal - "To the best of my knowledge the only thing philosophy has ever proven is that Descartes could think." - SMBC

9th January 2019, 11:04 AM	#372
acbytesla Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Dec 2012 Posts: 21,298	Originally Posted by acbytesla I agree with this entirely. There is no reason why the entire Western Hemisphere can't be prosperous. Originally Posted by Belz... Indeed, though one should note that if everyone is prosperous, you might see the value of your income go down substantially. If that's an acceptable deal, then fine. 'Might go down' is questionable and 'might go up' is also possible. I don't think it's a zero sum game.
	__________________ “ A wise man proportions his belief to the evidence. ” ― David Hume

9th January 2019, 11:19 AM	#373
ponderingturtle Orthogonal Vector Join Date: Jul 2006 Posts: 46,016	Originally Posted by acbytesla Belz, I don't know. I do disagree with both. I find it obscene that Trump has decided to play this game. It is reckless and dangerous. I'm also not sure what is the wisest course of action in dealing with the crazy man. I'm afraid, he'll do this again if he gets his way. Of course he proved it is a winning negotiating strategy. Makes using it when ever you want to win great. And of course McConnell isn't even letting them vote on the bill Trump vetoed so that they could fund the government by overriding Trump. So there are plenty of workable ways that the government could be reopened with out the wall, that Trump couldn't even get his own party to support. Why blame the democrats for what is clearly the republicans doing? If McConnell just let the previous funding bill come to a vote in this congress it would be easy.
	__________________ Sufficiently advanced Woo is indistinguishable from Parody "There shall be no poofing in science" Paul C. Anagnostopoulos Force ***** on reasons back" Ben Franklin

9th January 2019, 11:24 AM	#374
Belz... Fiend God Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: In the details Posts: 81,370	Originally Posted by TragicMonkey When Mitch is subjected to extreme stress he starts leaking embalming fluid through his seams. I really had to work hard not to laugh out loud at my workdesk, now. Originally Posted by Tsukasa Buddha McConnell has been shifting responsibility to Trump for the shutdown, probably because he knows it is a losing hand. He's another completely insincere actor. McConnell is possibly most responsible for the current state of affairs in US politics out of anyone in the last 20 years. Originally Posted by thaiboxerken Probably not. The "liberal" media bends over backwards to give Republican leaders air-time. They do make for great entertainment.
	__________________ Master of the Shining Darkness "My views are nonsense. So what?" - BobTheCoward

9th January 2019, 11:29 AM	#375
Belz... Fiend God Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: In the details Posts: 81,370	Originally Posted by Delphic Oracle "I'm being intransigent, so it's your fault" has never held water with me. Nor with me, but when you're dealing with the intransigent, what are your options? Which one do you take? You can complain about them all you want but at the end of the day you have to choose and stay the course. Originally Posted by acbytesla 'Might go down' is questionable and 'might go up' is also possible. I don't think it's a zero sum game. The point isn't the zero sum game. It's that if the country's prosperous, wages will go up. A lot. And your 5$ shirt won't cost 5$ dollars anymore. Sure, jobs might come back into the country, but you'll have to accept that, because everything made everywhere costs more, you'll effectively be poorer. Would that be a better world? Probably. But the point is to understand the consequences of actions and accept them.
	__________________ Master of the Shining Darkness "My views are nonsense. So what?" - BobTheCoward

9th January 2019, 02:14 PM	#376
Brainache Nasty Brutish and Tall Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Canberra Posts: 17,209	I think it's up to Congress and the Senate to just build a wall around Donald Trump.

9th January 2019, 02:18 PM	#377
JoeMorgue Self Employed Remittance Man Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Florida Posts: 17,467	Government shutdown stops FDA food safety inspections NBC: https://www.nbcnews.com/health/healt...ctions-n956716 Quote: The ongoing federal government shutdown has stopped most food safety inspections, but the Food and Drug Administration is planning to resume at least some of them. To do it, the agency will have to force furloughed workers to come back without pay. FDA Commissioner Dr. Scott Gottlieb said he is trying to pinpoint the most essential inspections, while making sure that employees do not suffer too much.
	__________________ - "Ernest Hemingway once wrote that the world is a fine place and worth fighting for. I agree with the second part." - Detective Sommerset - "Stupidity does not cancel out stupidity to yield genius. It breeds like a bucket-full of coked out hamsters." - The Oatmeal - "To the best of my knowledge the only thing philosophy has ever proven is that Descartes could think." - SMBC

9th January 2019, 02:34 PM	#378
acbytesla Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Dec 2012 Posts: 21,298	Originally Posted by Belz... The point isn't the zero sum game. It's that if the country's prosperous, wages will go up. A lot. And your 5$ shirt won't cost 5$ dollars anymore. Sure, jobs might come back into the country, but you'll have to accept that, because everything made everywhere costs more, you'll effectively be poorer. Would that be a better world? Probably. But the point is to understand the consequences of actions and accept them. I don't necessarily disagree. But I don't see that as the big issue. It's amazing how much is done with automation which threatens even those low wage jobs in the poorest of countries today.
	__________________ “ A wise man proportions his belief to the evidence. ” ― David Hume

9th January 2019, 02:40 PM	#379
JoeMorgue Self Employed Remittance Man Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Florida Posts: 17,467	A post... errrr "grunt work" world (probably a better name for it) is one of those things that it's a lot easier to imagine living in then imaging living in the transitional period it takes to get to that world. Everybody wants to live in a world where nobody has to do dangerous, boring, unpleasant, etc jobs. Nobody wants to in the world those jobs still exist but there's not enough of them to go around so some people have to do them and some don't and you wind up in the "have to" camp.
	__________________ - "Ernest Hemingway once wrote that the world is a fine place and worth fighting for. I agree with the second part." - Detective Sommerset - "Stupidity does not cancel out stupidity to yield genius. It breeds like a bucket-full of coked out hamsters." - The Oatmeal - "To the best of my knowledge the only thing philosophy has ever proven is that Descartes could think." - SMBC

9th January 2019, 05:57 PM	#380
Stacyhs Philosopher Join Date: Mar 2016 Posts: 7,171	Originally Posted by Brainache I think it's up to ~~Congress~~ the House and the Senate to just build a wall around Donald Trump. I think you had a brain fart.
Stacyhs Philosopher Join Date: Mar 2016 Posts: 7,171

9th January 2019, 06:03 PM	#381
zorro99 Muse Join Date: Apr 2008 Posts: 733	There is no crisis or emergency at the border.
zorro99 Muse Join Date: Apr 2008 Posts: 733	__________________ There is nothing as deceptive as an obvious fact.

9th January 2019, 06:07 PM	#382
Stacyhs Philosopher Join Date: Mar 2016 Posts: 7,171	Originally Posted by zorro99 There is no crisis or emergency at the border. Not to hear Trump and his people talk. They use the word "crisis" every time they mention the border. It's the old "tell a lie often enough and people will start to believe it" tactic.
Stacyhs Philosopher Join Date: Mar 2016 Posts: 7,171

9th January 2019, 06:38 PM	#383
Foolmewunz Grammar Resistance Leader TLA Dictator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Pattaya, Thailand Posts: 40,341	Originally Posted by Stacyhs Not to hear Trump and his people talk. They use the word "crisis" every time they mention the border. It's the old "tell a lie often enough and people will start to believe it" tactic. Are they trying to manufacture a crisis by not choosing a safe red district for their border show tomorrow? McAllen is not exactly a hotbed of Trump support. They have a Republican congressman but he's not in the Trump camp and has found other things to do rather than carry bags for Trump/Cruz/Cronyn. And the mayor is totally against the shutdown. I'm just wondering if Trump's "strategists"(for certain strange meanings of that word) are hoping for a bunch of crazed antifa thugs and baby-rapers and gangstas to help them by staging a riot. His usual safe-zone instinct is to go to rural red districts (check out a map of his rallies in Florida). There are only a few left because just about the whole TX/MX border voted against him, but he could've found a safer one.
	__________________ Ha! Foolmewunz has just been added to the list of people who aren't complete idiots. Hokulele It's not that liberals have become less tolerant. It's that conservatives have become more intolerable.

9th January 2019, 06:54 PM	#384
Stacyhs Philosopher Join Date: Mar 2016 Posts: 7,171	Originally Posted by Foolmewunz Are they trying to manufacture a crisis by not choosing a safe red district for their border show tomorrow? McAllen is not exactly a hotbed of Trump support. They have a Republican congressman but he's not in the Trump camp and has found other things to do rather than carry bags for Trump/Cruz/Cronyn. And the mayor is totally against the shutdown. I'm just wondering if Trump's "strategists"(for certain strange meanings of that word) are hoping for a bunch of crazed antifa thugs and baby-rapers and gangstas to help them by staging a riot. His usual safe-zone instinct is to go to rural red districts (check out a map of his rallies in Florida). There are only a few left because just about the whole TX/MX border voted against him, but he could've found a safer one. It's always possible with Trump. Crazy is his specialty.
Stacyhs Philosopher Join Date: Mar 2016 Posts: 7,171

9th January 2019, 07:04 PM	#385
Norman Alexander Philosopher Join Date: Nov 2014 Posts: 5,168	From a Vanity Fair article linked by Squeegee Beckenheim in another thread: Quote: Another prominent Republican close to Senate Majority Leader Mitch McConnell described Trump’s handling of the shutdown as “total ******* chaos.” Seems even The Turtle is reaching the end of his tether, no matter what he says publicly.
	__________________ _{...our governments are just trying to protect us from terror. In the same way that someone banging a hornets’ nest with a stick is trying to protect us from hornets. Frankie Boyle, Guardian, July 2015}

9th January 2019, 07:07 PM	#386
Norman Alexander Philosopher Join Date: Nov 2014 Posts: 5,168	Originally Posted by Stacyhs Not to hear Trump and his people talk. They use the word "crisis" every time they mention the border. It's the old "tell a lie often enough and people will start to believe it" tactic. The crisis is really that they can't find anything on the border to manufacturer a crisis about. Failing that, they are trying to conjure one up out of thin air by shutting down government, but everyone is seeing through that trick now. The only REAL crisis they are facing is coming slowly but surely from Bob Mueller's office. And that one they can't talk about.
	__________________ _{...our governments are just trying to protect us from terror. In the same way that someone banging a hornets’ nest with a stick is trying to protect us from hornets. Frankie Boyle, Guardian, July 2015}

9th January 2019, 07:12 PM	#387
acbytesla Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Dec 2012 Posts: 21,298	Originally Posted by Norman Alexander The crisis is really that they can't find anything on the border to manufacturer a crisis about. Failing that, they are trying to conjure one up out of thin air by shutting down government, but everyone is seeing through that trick now. The only REAL crisis they are facing is coming slowly but surely from Bob Mueller's office. And that one they can't talk about. O'Rourke hits El Paso streets to rebut Trump's immigration address Quote: “The president using fear and anecdote to try to instill an anxiety and paranoia to build the political will to construct this wall that would cost $30 billion and take private property and cause death and suffering as more asylum seekers are pushed to ever more hostile stretches of the U.S.-Mexico border — that was what we heard from the Oval Office,” O’Rourke said. “And we need to meet that fear with the truth, with our ambition, with the best traditions of this country, a country of immigrants, and with the example of El Paso and Juárez.” https://www.politico.com/amp/story/2...-trump-1089194 If ever there was a time to put BETO front and center it is right now. Read the rest of the article.
	__________________ “ A wise man proportions his belief to the evidence. ” ― David Hume

9th January 2019, 07:23 PM	#388
Delphic Oracle Master Poster Join Date: Sep 2016 Posts: 2,993	Originally Posted by acbytesla Belz, I don't know. I do disagree with both. I find it obscene that Trump has decided to play this game. It is reckless and dangerous. I'm also not sure what is the wisest course of action in dealing with the crazy man. I'm afraid, he'll do this again if he gets his way. There simply isn't a good choice. When none of the choices available provide advantage is one of the few times in life where you can do the right thing without a cost.

9th January 2019, 07:28 PM	#389
Norman Alexander Philosopher Join Date: Nov 2014 Posts: 5,168	Originally Posted by Delphic Oracle When none of the choices available provide advantage is one of the few times in life where you can do the right thing without a cost. That would be sensible, and require introspection. Can you see Trump doing either of those?
	__________________ _{...our governments are just trying to protect us from terror. In the same way that someone banging a hornets’ nest with a stick is trying to protect us from hornets. Frankie Boyle, Guardian, July 2015}

9th January 2019, 07:36 PM	#390
dudalb Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Sacramento Posts: 43,753	Originally Posted by Norman Alexander The crisis is really that they can't find anything on the border to manufacturer a crisis about. Failing that, they are trying to conjure one up out of thin air by shutting down government, but everyone is seeing through that trick now. The only REAL crisis they are facing is coming slowly but surely from Bob Mueller's office. And that one they can't talk about. It has been suggested that the shutdown crisis distracts attention from the Mueller probe has not escaped Donald Trump.....
	__________________ Pacifism is a shifty doctrine under which a man accepts the benefits of the social group without being willing to pay - and claims a halo for his dishonesty. Robert Heinlein.

9th January 2019, 07:39 PM	#391
dudalb Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Sacramento Posts: 43,753	Originally Posted by acbytesla O'Rourke hits El Paso streets to rebut Trump's immigration address If ever there was a time to put BETO front and center it is right now. Read the rest of the article. Because Beto is good at getting himself on the news is not sufficient reason to anoint him as the Dems Candidate in 2020. Of course the experience with Trump has made me very supiscious of any personality cult...and I see forming around Beto.
	__________________ Pacifism is a shifty doctrine under which a man accepts the benefits of the social group without being willing to pay - and claims a halo for his dishonesty. Robert Heinlein.

9th January 2019, 07:42 PM	#392
JoeMorgue Self Employed Remittance Man Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Florida Posts: 17,467	Looks like some GOP members are starting to consider trying make a deal with the Democrats without the President, floating the idea of offering the Democrats concessions on such long desired political goals as the "Dreamer" Program and H-2B Visas in exchange for funding Trump's wall. CNN: https://www.cnn.com/2019/01/09/polit...ors/index.html
	__________________ - "Ernest Hemingway once wrote that the world is a fine place and worth fighting for. I agree with the second part." - Detective Sommerset - "Stupidity does not cancel out stupidity to yield genius. It breeds like a bucket-full of coked out hamsters." - The Oatmeal - "To the best of my knowledge the only thing philosophy has ever proven is that Descartes could think." - SMBC

9th January 2019, 07:47 PM	#393
acbytesla Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Dec 2012 Posts: 21,298	Originally Posted by Delphic Oracle When none of the choices available provide advantage is one of the few times in life where you can do the right thing without a cost. But of course the real conundrum is not that there may not be one better option, but the difficulty of knowing what that is. One of my pet peeves is Monday morning quarterbacking. Second guessing those that Teddy Roosevelt said "that are in the Arena" For example, all those people that second guessed the pass at the end of the Seahawks Patriots Super Bowl that was intercepted. Sure it's easy to say they should have done the obvious and run Marshawn Lynch. But that is hindsight. No one would have said anything if that pass had gone for a touchdown or was incomplete.
	__________________ “ A wise man proportions his belief to the evidence. ” ― David Hume

9th January 2019, 07:50 PM	#394
acbytesla Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Dec 2012 Posts: 21,298	Originally Posted by dudalb Because Beto is good at getting himself on the news is not sufficient reason to anoint him as the Dems Candidate in 2020. Of course the experience with Trump has made me very supiscious of any personality cult...and I see forming around Beto. Here's the thing though. Beto was a Congressman from El Paso. He grew up in that border town. On this issue he has standing. And he's one he'll of a lot more charismatic and persuasive than Pelosi and Schumer.
	__________________ “ A wise man proportions his belief to the evidence. ” ― David Hume

9th January 2019, 07:57 PM	#395
Delphic Oracle Master Poster Join Date: Sep 2016 Posts: 2,993	Originally Posted by Norman Alexander That would be sensible, and require introspection. Can you see Trump doing either of those? I was taking from the perspective of someone wondering "how to deal with this crazy man."