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Old 4th January 2019, 02:09 PM   #201
Segnosaur
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Originally Posted by Crossbow View Post
Well, at least it is finally becoming obvious as to what Trump wants in regards to his shutdown of the government.

In this case, Trump would rather have the government shutdown than have to deal with the news coverage of his various scandals.
Yes, I can see Trump thinking the Shutdown might provide a distraction from the Mueller investigation.

The problem is, the shut down may negatively affect the economy as a whole. Since that seems to be one of the things Trump supporters can talk about without being embarrassed ("Hey, he's putin's public, but look at the jobs". Not that I believe it myself since the economy was already growing under Obama.) If the shutdown sinks the economy, that may be the thing that sinks Trump's approval ratings.

Plus, eventually the shutdown may start to affect Republican core voters. (Staff handling social security have been cut back, and military pay may eventually be affected, and those involve 2 demographics that heavily favor republicans.)
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Old 4th January 2019, 02:12 PM   #202
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Originally Posted by Segnosaur View Post
Yes, I can see Trump thinking the Shutdown might provide a distraction from the Mueller investigation.
//Eddy Murphy Thinking Meme//

"Can't have a government investigation if you shutdown the government."

//Eddy Murphy Thinking Meme//
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Old 4th January 2019, 02:13 PM   #203
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The drafters of the US constitution sure were a bunch of incompetents for not making sure that the previous budget of public institutions would automatically continue to be applied on an interim basis in order to prevent situations just such as this from occurring. Disgraceful.
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Old 4th January 2019, 04:08 PM   #204
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Trump's "negotiating" tactics are so hilariously bad. The shutdown lasting years or declaring a national emergency to build the wall aren't believable threats. I mean, he could try them because he is an idiot, but they are losing hands for him.
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Old 4th January 2019, 04:34 PM   #205
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Originally Posted by Tsukasa Buddha View Post
Trump's "negotiating" tactics are so hilariously bad. The shutdown lasting years or declaring a national emergency to build the wall aren't believable threats. I mean, he could try them because he is an idiot, but they are losing hands for him.
True. All Congress has to do is un-ass a supermajority of legislators who care more about compromise and resuming the normal business of government, and there's really nothing the president could do about it.

Maybe Trump means that it'll take years for congress to get there, and it'll be a national emergency by the time they do. That's kind of believable, actually.
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Old 4th January 2019, 04:47 PM   #206
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
You should probably know that I'm the person who vehemently believes that arguments from analogy always fail. I don't think this analogy - or any other - is appropriate, and that if you want to argue a thing, you should argue the thing its own terms. If you think this analogy is appropriate, then I think you're wrong and confused.
I don't. Despite what you just said, you are the one who brought the analogy up...If you didn't think it was appropriate, then why did you bring it up?
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Old 4th January 2019, 05:03 PM   #207
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
True. All Congress has to do is un-ass a supermajority of legislators who care more about compromise and resuming the normal business of government, and there's really nothing the president could do about it.
In other words, Mitch needs to grow a pair, or at least get his back from Trump so he can stand up to him and show Trump what it means to have different Branches of Government with their own set of powers. Up until now for some reason the GOP have just meekly handed over their power entirely to Trump, something that would have had the Founders rolling in their graves considering the lengths they went to, to make sure that no one person would hold all the power chips in the US Government.

Quote:
Maybe Trump means that it'll take years for congress to get there, and it'll be a national emergency by the time they do. That's kind of believable, actually.
Except the figures say the exact opposite. Illegal Immigration has been steadily falling since it peaked in 2006.

Ironically, it is Trump's own policies that could see it rising. By making it harder for US companies to set up shop in countries such as Mexico, he is reducing the jobs and ability to live a reasonably good waged life in the very countries he want to prevent people illegally migrating from, meaning that people will be looking at going to the US for the economic security that Trump's policies are removing from their home countries.

The best way to stop Illegal migration is to help build up the economies and jobs in the countries those migrants are coming from. If they can get a better and more secure future for themselves and their kids in their own countries than they would have in the US, then they will have less incentive to leave.
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Old 4th January 2019, 05:36 PM   #208
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I called my credit union today to look into deferring car loan repayments and to see if they are offering any services for furloughed federal employees. The man I spoke to asked how much longer I thought I might be furloughed.

I told him "The President said it may last a year or more." The guy on the phone literally blubbered "Ah, well, uh, jeez, what? I mean, um, that uh....well. Um, okay, and..." He went on like that for a surprising length of time.

Then said that his boss makes all of the decisions and is out of the office until Monday.

Guess I'll wait.
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Old 4th January 2019, 05:44 PM   #209
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Trump hates government. Just a bunch of regulations. Shuts it down, win win for Trump! How did we get to this? Thank you red states! (I live in one).
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Old 4th January 2019, 06:09 PM   #210
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Maybe we should change the title of this thread to 2018/2019/2020 US Federal Government Shutdown?
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Old 4th January 2019, 06:28 PM   #211
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Originally Posted by PhantomWolf View Post
In other words, Mitch needs to grow a pair, or at least get his back from Trump so he can stand up to him and show Trump what it means to have different Branches of Government with their own set of powers. Up until now for some reason the GOP have just meekly handed over their power entirely to Trump, something that would have had the Founders rolling in their graves considering the lengths they went to, to make sure that no one person would hold all the power chips in the US Government.

Except the figures say the exact opposite. Illegal Immigration has been steadily falling since it peaked in 2006.

Ironically, it is Trump's own policies that could see it rising. By making it harder for US companies to set up shop in countries such as Mexico, he is reducing the jobs and ability to live a reasonably good waged life in the very countries he want to prevent people illegally migrating from, meaning that people will be looking at going to the US for the economic security that Trump's policies are removing from their home countries.

The best way to stop Illegal migration is to help build up the economies and jobs in the countries those migrants are coming from. If they can get a better and more secure future for themselves and their kids in their own countries than they would have in the US, then they will have less incentive to leave.
I agree with this entirely. There is no reason why the entire Western Hemisphere can't be prosperous.
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Old 4th January 2019, 06:35 PM   #212
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Where did I state the position that an idiot *should* be placated?

Maybe you should start by quoting something I've actually said, and asking me to defend that.
You know damn well I'm referring to this quote:

Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
That is an excellent question that everybody involved should probably have asked themselves before they got into this game of chicken. Congress could have safeguarded the financial stability (and indeed the lives) of millions of Americans simply by approving a bill they knew the President would sign. Instead, they chose to play a game of brinkmanship with an a naive and self-centered idiot. What could go wrong, indeed?
...But evidently you're more comfortable disingenuously beating around the bush and feigning ignorance of the topic than actually, you know, supporting your position.
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Old 4th January 2019, 06:49 PM   #213
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
I agree with this entirely. There is no reason why the entire Western Hemisphere can't be prosperous.

Other countries being prosperous would mean that there's something being taken away from the US, which is unacceptable. Haven't you been paying attention? Global economics is a zero-sum game. If someone else wins, then we lose.
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Old 4th January 2019, 06:58 PM   #214
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Originally Posted by Armitage72 View Post
Other countries being prosperous would mean that there's something being taken away from the US, which is unacceptable. Haven't you been paying attention? Global economics is a zero-sum game. If someone else wins, then we lose.

It's the 'Rising Tide Sinks Our Boats' school of economics.

I guess Trump learned that at Wharton.
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Old 4th January 2019, 07:04 PM   #215
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Originally Posted by Armitage72 View Post
Other countries being prosperous would mean that there's something being taken away from the US, which is unacceptable. Haven't you been paying attention? Global economics is a zero-sum game. If someone else wins, then we lose.
That is how Trump sees it. But it is ignorant of the the facts. Prosperity begets prosperity. Imagine if the Allied Forces didn't rebuild Europe? The greatest growth of was Post WWII. And that was because of looking forward and investing in that prosperity.
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Old 4th January 2019, 07:12 PM   #216
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Originally Posted by Cabbage View Post
I don't. Despite what you just said, you are the one who brought the analogy up...If you didn't think it was appropriate, then why did you bring it up?
Oh, this is just beautiful.

Come on, theprestige. Tell us more about the mob boss holding the gun to your fathers head and whatnot, and how you hate analogies.

Hilarious.
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Old 4th January 2019, 07:30 PM   #217
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
I agree with this entirely. There is no reason why the entire Western Hemisphere can't be prosperous.
This. We will never build fortifications stronger than the push forces causing people to leave where they are and the pull factors that draw them here.
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Old 4th January 2019, 07:31 PM   #218
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Originally Posted by Armitage72 View Post
Other countries being prosperous would mean that there's something being taken away from the US, which is unacceptable. Haven't you been paying attention? Global economics is a zero-sum game. If someone else wins, then we lose.
What the **** kind of economics texts books are you reading?
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Old 4th January 2019, 07:34 PM   #219
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Originally Posted by Craig4 View Post
What the **** kind of economics texts books are you reading?
Sarcastic ones?
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Old 4th January 2019, 07:36 PM   #220
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Originally Posted by Craig4 View Post
What the **** kind of economics texts books are you reading?

I was emulating Trump's attitude. That's what I meant by "paying attention". Other countries benefiting from trade agreements being described as "taking advantage of America", for example.
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Old 4th January 2019, 09:57 PM   #221
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Originally Posted by Craig4 View Post
What the **** kind of economics texts books are you reading?
I'm pretty sure Armitage meant that as sarcasm.
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Old 4th January 2019, 10:11 PM   #222
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Originally Posted by Craig4 View Post
This. We will never build fortifications stronger than the push forces causing people to leave where they are and the pull factors that draw them here.
The United States has more than 12,000 miles of coastline and 5,000 miles of border and 328 ports of entry with 350 million border crossings on our Southern border alone.

Building a wall is like a Dutch boy putting his finger in a dike. Much better to just relieve the pressure on the other side.
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Old 4th January 2019, 10:18 PM   #223
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Hundreds of Transportation Security Administration officers, who are required to work without paychecks through the partial government shutdown, have called out from work this week from at least four major airports, according to two senior agency officials and three TSA employee union officials.

https://edition.cnn.com/2019/01/04/p...ing/index.html
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Old 4th January 2019, 10:35 PM   #224
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Originally Posted by Arcade22 View Post
The drafters of the US constitution sure were a bunch of incompetents for not making sure that the previous budget of public institutions would automatically continue to be applied on an interim basis in order to prevent situations just such as this from occurring. Disgraceful.
”I know more than the drafters.” - Donald Trump (very likely)
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Old 4th January 2019, 10:43 PM   #225
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I think Pence was testing the waters, trying to make himself more visible and credible as a Trump replacement to Congress.
After all, it is God's Will that he becomes the Commander in Chief.
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Old 5th January 2019, 02:55 AM   #226
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
I'm pretty sure Armitage meant that as sarcasm.
Okay but I say an emoji was in order there.
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Old 5th January 2019, 03:28 AM   #227
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Deleted because Ninja’d

Last edited by jeremyp; 5th January 2019 at 03:34 AM. Reason: Point already made by somebody else
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Old 5th January 2019, 03:44 AM   #228
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
My mistake. You intruded on an exchange between me and Darat. Naturally I assumed you meant to be relevant to that exchange. Remind me again what "flaw" you wish me to defend, please.
Are you aware that this is a public forum? Anybody can “intrude” anywhere they like - only it’s not intrusion, it’s taking part.

If you make an analogy and then claim you “vehemently believe arguments from analogies always fail”, you should expect to get called on it.

You made an analogy that the current situation is like a mobster making demands and threatening to shoot people if they are not complied with. It’s not unreasonable to infer from that that you believe this is the situation the USA is in.
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Old 5th January 2019, 04:08 AM   #229
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Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
I think Pence was testing the waters, trying to make himself more visible and credible as a Trump replacement to Congress.
After all, it is God's Will that he becomes the Commander in Chief.
Pence is on a promise by the GOP. The Turtle obviously loaths Trump. Sooner or later Donny will become more of a liability than an asset in place. He is probably close to that tipping point now. Then the Senate will turn on him and he will be punted quick smart.
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Old 5th January 2019, 04:23 AM   #230
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Originally Posted by Regnad Kcin View Post
”I know more than the drafters.” - Donald Trump (very likely)

Well, they didn’t manage to draft him, did they?
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Old 5th January 2019, 04:26 AM   #231
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Originally Posted by Norman Alexander View Post
Pence is on a promise by the GOP. The Turtle obviously loaths Trump. Sooner or later Donny will become more of a liability than an asset in place. He is probably close to that tipping point now. Then the Senate will turn on him and he will be punted quick smart.
How likely is that? They are deeply imvested in Trump now, can they afford to change course?
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Old 5th January 2019, 05:14 AM   #232
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If, according to the right wingers, ”government does not do anything”, why is this shut down harmful? All they would be doing is regulating anyway. Now free enterprise can burn unlimited coal! And all regulations are bad. Win win! Send Trump to Florida for 2 years, ad we don’t need him either.
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Old 5th January 2019, 05:15 AM   #233
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The meeting yesterday with the key players ostensibly to solve the shutdown started with Trump on a "15 minute profanity-laced rant about impeachment" according to press reports.

It's also being reported that Trump didn't understand what actually happens in a shutdown, and the administration is scrambling (more so than usual) as a result. This would sound absurd in normal times. These are not that.

Sorry no link. The transcript (Brian Williams MSNBC) will show up here soon, I presume.
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Old 5th January 2019, 05:53 AM   #234
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Originally Posted by Tero View Post
If, according to the right wingers, ”government does not do anything”, why is this shut down harmful? All they would be doing is regulating anyway. Now free enterprise can burn unlimited coal! And all regulations are bad. Win win! Send Trump to Florida for 2 years, ad we don’t need him either.
The claim is that government does nothing right, not that it does nothing.
So if in the absence of government something, against all expectations, doesn't suddenly work because of Invisible HandsTM, it shows the importance of the State, which is something we don't want anyone to see
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Old 5th January 2019, 06:09 AM   #235
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Originally Posted by PhantomWolf View Post
Except the figures say the exact opposite. Illegal Immigration has been steadily falling since it peaked in 2006.
Stop trying to introduce facts into a debate with a conservative it never works they only accept what the ministry of truth says.
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Old 5th January 2019, 06:12 AM   #236
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Originally Posted by Craig4 View Post
What the **** kind of economics texts books are you reading?
Nationalistic ones.
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Old 5th January 2019, 06:58 AM   #237
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Well, government "does nothing right" is mostly because Republicans underfund it. You could fix healthcare anytime. Just cut defense 50%. Nobody has attacked the US since Pearl Harbor.
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Old 5th January 2019, 07:03 AM   #238
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Originally Posted by Craig4 View Post
What the **** kind of economics texts books are you reading?
The Art of the Deal.
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Old 5th January 2019, 07:05 AM   #239
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These parentheticals are on point.

Quote:
One of these knowledgeable sources told The Daily Beast President Trump kicked off the meeting with a rant lasting roughly 15 minutes that included his $5.6 billion demand for a border wall, and threatened that he was willing to keep the government closed for “years” if that’s what it took to get his wall. He also, unprompted, brought up the Democrats who want him impeached, and even blamed Pelosi for new Democratic congresswoman Rashida Tlaib saying at a party earlier this week that Democrats would impeach the “************” Trump. (It is unclear why Trump would think Pelosi was responsible for this.)

Trump proceeded to tell the room he was too popular to impeach.

Along with saying the word “****” at least three times throughout the meeting, the president bizarrely stated that he did not want to call the partial government shutdown a “shutdown,” according to the source. Instead, he referred to it as a “strike.” (Many of the federal employees affected by the weeks-long shutdown have been working without pay. That is essentially the opposite of a strike.)

Last edited by zooterkin; 7th January 2019 at 01:57 PM. Reason: Rule 10
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Old 5th January 2019, 07:07 AM   #240
Norman Alexander
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Originally Posted by timhau View Post
How likely is that? They are deeply imvested in Trump now, can they afford to change course?
It's a matter of how much the GOP are prepared to lose. They are realists, ultimately. When Trump is just too much of a burden, they will cut him loose, and of course Pence will have to step in. I suspect a 25th amendment solution will be tried, and "regrettably", Trump will be "sent to care". Trump himself will rant and be a public pest, but he will be sidelined.
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