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Old 29th January 2019, 11:20 AM   #81
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A main reason I am not a "Progressive" is because they are willing to endlessly sacrifice individussl liberty on the altar of "social justice".
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Old 29th January 2019, 12:57 PM   #82
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
A main reason I am not a "Progressive" is because they are willing to endlessly sacrifice individussl liberty on the altar of "social justice".
And the right are endlessly willing to defend the 'right to harass people' as 'freedom of speech' and yet jump on anyone who dares criticise their poster boys.
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Old 30th January 2019, 02:03 AM   #83
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Originally Posted by baron View Post
It's a load of rubbish. But thanks anyway.



No, you don't get it (and there's no shame in that, it's verging on incredible). There is no false alarm in UK law when it comes to 'hate' incidents. Broadly speaking, what happens is this:

* A reports B to the police as having indulged in 'hate speech', or committed a 'hateful' action, or something similar.

* The police formally record the reported event as a hate incident, as defined by A and A alone.

* The police investigate the hate incident.

* If they find no criminality has occurred the hate incident remains on file against B, as would a criminal allegation, but the investigation is closed.

* If they suspect criminality then there is further investigation, and B may be charged with a hate crime, and legal proceedings follow.

The pertinent point is that it is the person reporting the crime, not the police, who define whether the occurrence is motivated by hate. If they believe it is, then it is formally recorded on the police database as such.

It is thought crime.
To be strict, it is an alleged hate crime. It only becomes a hate crime when B is convicted of the crime in court and the court decides that 'hate' has to be taken into account in deciding the punishment.

If someone accused B of a love crime e.g. perhaps being too affectionate with a child on line the accusation would lay on file even if no further action was taken. The process you describe is not unique to hate crimes.
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Old 30th January 2019, 02:17 AM   #84
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Originally Posted by baron View Post
Yeah, these pesky individuals who protest at the erosion of free speech and removal of fundamental liberties. Who do they think they are? They should keep their mouths shut in the interests of fascism.
Bloody hell, agreeing with baron is doing no end of damage to my rapidly diminishing rep.

More seriously, nobody has seemed to addressing my point about police discretion. Police obviously are not required to respond to each and every complaint. For what reason did police respond to this one? Officious policing is a curse which should be stamped out.
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Old 30th January 2019, 02:31 AM   #85
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Originally Posted by lionking View Post
Bloody hell, agreeing with baron is doing no end of damage to my rapidly diminishing rep.
Maybe your problem is agreeing with him based on what he says the situation is, rather than what it really is. Simpler just to ignore him.

Quote:
More seriously, nobody has seemed to addressing my point about police discretion. Police obviously are not required to respond to each and every complaint. For what reason did police respond to this one? Officious policing is a curse which should be stamped out.
Easy identification of the person responsible for the Tweets, probably coupled with knowledge that he was an ex-copper. How would it have looked if they'd not reacted because he was once one of their own?
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Old 30th January 2019, 02:46 AM   #86
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Originally Posted by Information Analyst View Post



Easy identification of the person responsible for the Tweets, probably coupled with knowledge that he was an ex-copper. How would it have looked if they'd not reacted because he was once one of their own?
Reacted to what? A stupid ******* tweet which was not a crime? Do you think this is a good use of scarce police time?
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Old 30th January 2019, 03:28 AM   #87
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Originally Posted by Planigale View Post
To be strict, it is an alleged hate crime. It only becomes a hate crime when B is convicted of the crime in court and the court decides that 'hate' has to be taken into account in deciding the punishment.

If someone accused B of a love crime e.g. perhaps being too affectionate with a child on line the accusation would lay on file even if no further action was taken. The process you describe is not unique to hate crimes.
I'm not sure what to make of that.

Originally Posted by lionking View Post
Bloody hell, agreeing with baron is doing no end of damage to my rapidly diminishing rep.
It will elevate your standing, trust me.

Originally Posted by lionking View Post
More seriously, nobody has seemed to addressing my point about police discretion. Police obviously are not required to respond to each and every complaint. For what reason did police respond to this one? Officious policing is a curse which should be stamped out.
It's been passed down from the top. Several forces have openly admitted this. Hate incidents / crimes are a priority; actual crimes such as burglary, criminal damage, even assault, have been pushed down the line and may not even be investigated.

https://youtu.be/wZXGI7R1-gA

Originally Posted by Information Analyst View Post
Simpler just to ignore him.
I wish you would, preferable to your incessant trolling.

Originally Posted by Information Analyst View Post
Easy identification of the person responsible for the Tweets, probably coupled with knowledge that he was an ex-copper. How would it have looked if they'd not reacted because he was once one of their own?
Sure, there would be outrage! "Look!" people would cry, "A copper 'liked' a limerick on Twitter and got away with it! The police are protecting their own! Lock him up and throw away the key!"

What kind of clown world are we living in when people come out with this **** ?
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Old 30th January 2019, 03:56 AM   #88
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Originally Posted by lionking View Post
Reacted to what? A stupid ******* tweet which was not a crime? Do you think this is a good use of scarce police time?
How would that be known without actually investigating it? That investigation was a simple telephone call which, as others point out, probably only took as long as it did because Miller himself strung it out.
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Old 30th January 2019, 04:04 AM   #89
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Originally Posted by Information Analyst View Post
How would that be known without actually investigating it? That investigation was a simple telephone call which, as others point out, probably only took as long as it did because Miller himself strung it out.
Was the phone call part of the investigation though? Seems like the investigation was looking at his Twitter history, and then the phone call was a warning telling him to be careful with what he 'liked' on social media, because that could cost him his job...
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Old 30th January 2019, 04:09 AM   #90
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Originally Posted by lionking View Post
Bloody hell, agreeing with baron is doing no end of damage to my rapidly diminishing rep.

More seriously, nobody has seemed to addressing my point about police discretion. Police obviously are not required to respond to each and every complaint. For what reason did police respond to this one? Officious policing is a curse which should be stamped out.
In my experience the police do tend to respond to each and every complaint made my a member of the public. If you complain about your neighbours they will come out and visit them and see what the problem is. If you say your spouse assaulted you they will come out and check. If you say the guy over the road was spying on you getting changed they will come out and see what the deal is.

They may not take any further action but they do tend to come out and respond to the complaint.
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Old 30th January 2019, 04:16 AM   #91
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Originally Posted by lionking View Post
Do you think this is a good use of scarce police time?
Depends. But generally yes, responding to complaints no matter how small probably overall is a good use of police time as otherwise you get the situation where people assume there is no point reporting crime and that's not healthy.

It's also not really the police's job to make the law or decide what laws they will enforce or not.
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Old 30th January 2019, 04:27 AM   #92
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Originally Posted by Archie Gemmill Goal View Post
In my experience the police do tend to respond to each and every complaint made my a member of the public. If you complain about your neighbours they will come out and visit them and see what the problem is. If you say your spouse assaulted you they will come out and check. If you say the guy over the road was spying on you getting changed they will come out and see what the deal is.

They may not take any further action but they do tend to come out and respond to the complaint.


https://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/ent...b0876eda9fb433

Quote:
Police 'Fail To Investigate Almost 1 Million Crimes A Year', Investigation Reveals

Channel 4′s Dispatches programme has uncovered that more than a quarter of crimes reported to police are dropped with “little or no investigation” by officers.

The data, obtained through Freedom of Investigation requests to 25 police forces, also showed that this figure is much higher in some areas of the country.

Bedfordshire and Greater Manchester Police reportedly failed to investigate 40% of crimes, while West Yorkshire Police was found to be screening out almost half of reported offences (46.5%).
As I say, a clown world.
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Old 30th January 2019, 04:59 AM   #93
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Originally Posted by Porpoise of Life View Post
Was the phone call part of the investigation though? Seems like the investigation was looking at his Twitter history, and then the phone call was a warning telling him to be careful with what he 'liked' on social media, because that could cost him his job...
As far as we know, he was already an ex-police officer at the time. It's not clear whether he was in the same force, but it seems likely that it was. Either way, it can't be dismissed as a factor.

Last edited by Information Analyst; 30th January 2019 at 05:02 AM.
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Old 30th January 2019, 05:14 AM   #94
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Good on the police to investigate the online haters. I also like that they warned him not to escalate further, as he was obviously riding a fine line. These internet haters are getting away with far too much as it is.
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Old 30th January 2019, 05:23 AM   #95
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Originally Posted by Archie Gemmill Goal View Post
In my experience the police do tend to respond to each and every complaint made my a member of the public. If you complain about your neighbours they will come out and visit them and see what the problem is. If you say your spouse assaulted you they will come out and check. If you say the guy over the road was spying on you getting changed they will come out and see what the deal is.

They may not take any further action but they do tend to come out and respond to the complaint.
I would seriously like to see evidence of this. I have direct experience of policing in Australia (I worked for Victoria Police for seven years in a senior unsworn role) and know that police here do not act on what they consider trivial reports.

I have an even more personal experience. I live on a dirt road and cars kicking up dust is an issue. A neighbour was pissed off with what he thought was my son driving fast (it was actually his mate) and came to my house threatening violence if it happened again. I should have just let it slide, but thought I would report it. The cop said “Do you think we respond to every neighbourhood dispute? Talk to your neighbour and sort it out. If anything actually happens, come back here”. Excellent advice. I took a couple of beers to the neighbour and we did actually sort it out.

Police acting on each and every report is a fantasy in my opinion.
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Old 30th January 2019, 05:33 AM   #96
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Originally Posted by lionking View Post
I would seriously like to see evidence of this. I have direct experience of policing in Australia (I worked for Victoria Police for seven years in a senior unsworn role) and know that police here do not act on what they consider trivial reports.

I have an even more personal experience. I live on a dirt road and cars kicking up dust is an issue. A neighbour was pissed off with what he thought was my son driving fast (it was actually his mate) and came to my house threatening violence if it happened again. I should have just let it slide, but thought I would report it. The cop said “Do you think we respond to every neighbourhood dispute? Talk to your neighbour and sort it out. If anything actually happens, come back here”. Excellent advice. I took a couple of beers to the neighbour and we did actually sort it out.

Police acting on each and every report is a fantasy in my opinion.
Well I am only speaking from my own personal experience so I can't provide you with data. If someone complained about me to the police I would expect to receive a visit or a phone call from them. Regardless of whether a crime had been committed or not. Of course I am sure there is a limit, if its clear that the call is ridiculous. I mean if you call the police and complain that your neighbours grass is too long then I doubt they will give you the time of day, but in the case where someone threatened you I would expect the police to respond yes
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Old 30th January 2019, 05:44 AM   #97
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Originally Posted by lionking View Post
The cop said “Do you think we respond to every neighbourhood dispute? Talk to your neighbour and sort it out. If anything actually happens, come back here”. Excellent advice. I took a couple of beers to the neighbour and we did actually sort it out.

Police acting on each and every report is a fantasy in my opinion.
Sounds like the police did act in your case. They gave solid advice.
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Old 30th January 2019, 05:49 AM   #98
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Originally Posted by Archie Gemmill Goal View Post
Well I am only speaking from my own personal experience so I can't provide you with data. If someone complained about me to the police I would expect to receive a visit or a phone call from them. Regardless of whether a crime had been committed or not. Of course I am sure there is a limit, if its clear that the call is ridiculous. I mean if you call the police and complain that your neighbours grass is too long then I doubt they will give you the time of day, but in the case where someone threatened you I would expect the police to respond yes
This forum has descended into comedy. I post the figures and they are ignored in favour of nonsense such as this.
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Old 30th January 2019, 08:16 AM   #99
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Originally Posted by baron View Post
This forum has descended into comedy. I post the figures and they are ignored in favour of nonsense such as this.
The figures you posted were for 23 of the UK's c46 police forces (depends of you want to count some tiny ones or not) and the article only referenced a few of those which were the worst for screening out crime.

It is not unreasonable that someone should note it is not their experience that the police ignore reports of a crime, especially someone from Scotland, which has one of the best resourced forces in the UK and large rural areas where the police still do react to the vast majority of complaints, because they have the time to do so.
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Old 30th January 2019, 08:20 AM   #100
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Originally Posted by lionking View Post
I would seriously like to see evidence of this. I have direct experience of policing in Australia (I worked for Victoria Police for seven years in a senior unsworn role) and know that police here do not act on what they consider trivial reports.

I have an even more personal experience. I live on a dirt road and cars kicking up dust is an issue. A neighbour was pissed off with what he thought was my son driving fast (it was actually his mate) and came to my house threatening violence if it happened again. I should have just let it slide, but thought I would report it. The cop said “Do you think we respond to every neighbourhood dispute? Talk to your neighbour and sort it out. If anything actually happens, come back here”. Excellent advice. I took a couple of beers to the neighbour and we did actually sort it out.

Police acting on each and every report is a fantasy in my opinion.
Try working in the Highlands and Islands. Even reacting to every single report of a crime or complaint from the public still left me with on average half of my shift with nothing much to do.

I filled in the time when I was not fighting crime with visiting people for a coffee or just going home (which was also the police station) and watching TV or washing the police car (it was a very clean police car).
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Old 30th January 2019, 08:27 AM   #101
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Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
It is not unreasonable that someone should note it is not their experience that the police ignore reports of a crime, especially someone from Scotland, which has one of the best resourced forces in the UK and large rural areas where the police still do react to the vast majority of complaints, because they have the time to do so.
Unreasonable? No. Irrelevant? Totally. Nobody cares whether a police force has rocked up to investigate the inconsequential complaints of a forum member, the topic is why the UK police insist on expending resource to investigate hate incidents whilst millions of actual crimes go investigated and even unrecorded. I've posted the evidence. If someone has evidence to the contrary then let's see it.
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Old 30th January 2019, 08:33 AM   #102
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Slight point of clarification, are those figures not about the investigation of 'reported crimes'?

ie. - not actual crimes. Broadly speaking, you don't know whether a crime was actually committed until it is investigated?
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Old 30th January 2019, 08:43 AM   #103
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Originally Posted by baron View Post
Unreasonable? No. Irrelevant? Totally. Nobody cares whether a police force has rocked up to investigate the inconsequential complaints of a forum member, the topic is why the UK police insist on expending resource to investigate hate incidents whilst millions of actual crimes go investigated and even unrecorded. I've posted the evidence. If someone has evidence to the contrary then let's see it.
It is because at this time, hate crime has been given a high priority. Previously it was all but ignored.

It used to be that Mrs Smith would have her window being smashed by local youths would result in immediate police action, whereas Mr Singh would be told that being abused for wearing a turban was not a crime and nothing would be done. Now it is the other way around.
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Old 30th January 2019, 08:46 AM   #104
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Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
It is because at this time, hate crime has been given a high priority. Previously it was all but ignored.

It used to be that Mrs Smith would have her window being smashed by local youths would result in immediate police action, whereas Mr Singh would be told that being abused for wearing a turban was not a crime and nothing would be done. Now it is the other way around.
The topic of this thread is not hate crime, it is hate incidents.

Furthermore, what we have now is not what you describe. Now we have Mr Singh ringing up saying someone's smashed his window and getting the brush off, whilst Mrs Smith calls saying she's seen someone post a naughty word on Facebook and it's action stations.
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Old 30th January 2019, 08:47 AM   #105
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Originally Posted by Worm View Post
Slight point of clarification, are those figures not about the investigation of 'reported crimes'?

ie. - not actual crimes. Broadly speaking, you don't know whether a crime was actually committed until it is investigated?
The report said "More than a quarter of offences are dropped with "little or no investigation". That would mean a crime has been reported and a decision has been made either not to investigate the report, or do a minimal investigation.

That is according to Home Office crime recording standards (Scottish Crime Recording Standard here), where a report of a crime is to be recorded as a crime and only decoded, meaning it is no longer recorded as a crime, if after an investigation no crime has been established.
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Old 30th January 2019, 08:50 AM   #106
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Originally Posted by baron View Post
The topic of this thread is not hate crime, it is hate incidents.

Furthermore, what we have now is not what you describe. Now we have Mr Singh ringing up saying someone's smashed his window and getting the brush off, whilst Mrs Smith calls saying she's seen someone post a naughty word on Facebook and it's action stations.
Which amounts to the same thing, a crime is ignored and hate abuse is prioritised instead.

You may not have twigged that I am agreeing with you. It is mad that crimes are being ignored over people getting upset about something some said.
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Old 30th January 2019, 08:59 AM   #107
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Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
Which amounts to the same thing, a crime is ignored and hate abuse is prioritised instead.

You may not have twigged that I am agreeing with you. It is mad that crimes are being ignored over people getting upset about something some said.
And also that non-crimes are formally recorded as hate-incidents. The system has gone rotten.
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Old 30th January 2019, 09:07 AM   #108
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Originally Posted by Puppycow View Post
So apparently this was recorded by the police as a "hate incident"?

https://www.citizensadvice.org.uk/la...nd-hate-crime/



Does this mean that this man is now in a police database as having committed a "hate incident"? Could it mean that he might have trouble finding work in the future because of it? What is the purpose of this information anyway?
A hate incident is not necessarily a crime. Presumably the police investigate such things to discover if a crime has in fact been committed. I can hate people or even groups of people without committing crimes. Suppose I refuse to invite black people to enter my home, because I hate them. That is hate but not a crime. If however I was manager of a pub and didn't allow black people to enter it, that might be a crime. Suppose I refused entry to a black individual. Perhaps that individual has caused trouble in the past, so my refusing entry wouldn't be a hate crime or any crime or hate incident at all. The police would have to know my "thinking". Am I refusing entry because the person is black, or because he is a known troublemaker? If the police investigated that they would not be acting like the Thought Police in 1984. They would be doing their job.
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Old 30th January 2019, 09:14 AM   #109
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Originally Posted by Worm View Post
Slight point of clarification, are those figures not about the investigation of 'reported crimes'?

ie. - not actual crimes. Broadly speaking, you don't know whether a crime was actually committed until it is investigated?
This is what some people - perhaps wilfully - seem unable to grasp. Some would have us believe that the police should be able to arbitrarily discount stuff they (the people in question, not the police) think should be ignored.
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Old 30th January 2019, 09:44 AM   #110
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Originally Posted by baron View Post
And also that non-crimes are formally recorded as hate-incidents. The system has gone rotten.
In Scotland, a hate incident is recorded on the Vulnerable Persons Database. That allows the police to identify and assist someone who is particularly at risk, which could result in additional patrols, a crime prevention survey and/or referral to another support agency. If a person is being subjected to regular or consistent hate incidents, that can be combined into a harassment case, for which there are various pieces of legislation which can be used;

https://www2.gov.scot/Publications/2002/11/15756/13116

I fail to see how that is a rotten system.
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Old 30th January 2019, 09:55 AM   #111
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Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
In Scotland, a hate incident is recorded on the Vulnerable Persons Database. That allows the police to identify and assist someone who is particularly at risk, which could result in additional patrols, a crime prevention survey and/or referral to another support agency. If a person is being subjected to regular or consistent hate incidents, that can be combined into a harassment case, for which there are various pieces of legislation which can be used;

https://www2.gov.scot/Publications/2002/11/15756/13116

I fail to see how that is a rotten system.
The issue is not the police doing their bit for the community (we'll come to that), it's the fact that a hate incident is also recorded against the alleged perpetrator, essentially giving him or her a police record for something that is not a crime.

Do you really believe the police act the way you describe? I could list from now til Doomsday incidences of people and families who have been subjected to criminal attacks and intimidation on a daily basis, sometimes resulting in their suicide (or indeed murder), and the police do absolutely nothing to help.

In what way do you think the police can help vulnerable people more? By investigating when that person is burgled, when they are physically attacked, when their property is smashed, when their car is stolen, when they are sexually assaulted... or when they see a naughty limerick posted on Twitter?
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Old 30th January 2019, 01:30 PM   #112
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Originally Posted by Information Analyst View Post
This is what some people - perhaps wilfully - seem unable to grasp. Some would have us believe that the police should be able to arbitrarily discount stuff they (the people in question, not the police) think should be ignored.
I don’t know who you are referring to here, but I have never said police in this case should not have investigated. My point is that once they saw the tweet, they should have dropped the whole matter. Instead they contacted the tweeter, reportedly lectured him and recorded the event. That is what’s ridiculous.

I’m not against enforcing vilification laws (we have a raft of them in Australia), I’m saying there should be sensible discretion.
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Old 30th January 2019, 02:27 PM   #113
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Originally Posted by lionking View Post
I don’t know who you are referring to here, but I have never said police in this case should not have investigated.
The investigation should have been conducted on the phone to the complainant. There was no need to even call the guy who posted the limerick. Unless the complainant lied (in which case she should be prosecuted) the complaint would state that whilst browsing Twitter in an effort to find tweets she found offensive, she discovered a terrible limerick concerning trans people.

"I see, madam, and what did you find hateful about this limerick?"

"Well, it said that a man can't become a woman and a woman can't become a man!"

"I see. Is that all?"

"Well, yes..."

"OK, madam, I can tell you now my investigation is concluded. I'd also like to make you aware that if you call again with any more of your time wasting crap I'll come round and kick you in the ****. Have a good day."
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Old 31st January 2019, 04:26 AM   #114
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Originally Posted by baron View Post
The investigation should have been conducted on the phone to the complainant. There was no need to even call the guy who posted the limerick. Unless the complainant lied (in which case she should be prosecuted) the complaint would state that whilst browsing Twitter in an effort to find tweets she found offensive, she discovered a terrible limerick concerning trans people.

"I see, madam, and what did you find hateful about this limerick?"

"Well, it said that a man can't become a woman and a woman can't become a man!"

"I see. Is that all?"

"Well, yes..."

"OK, madam, I can tell you now my investigation is concluded. I'd also like to make you aware that if you call again with any more of your time wasting crap I'll come round and kick you in the ****. Have a good day."
Totally agree that should have been the approach, saved time and effort also.
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Old 31st January 2019, 04:59 AM   #115
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Originally Posted by rayheno View Post
Totally agree that should have been the approach, saved time and effort also.
A community cohesion officer should have threatened a complainant with assault in response to a complaint. Indeed. That would be a much better system!

Jesus wept. The idiocy that passes for thought in England these days is overwhelming.
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Old 31st January 2019, 05:03 AM   #116
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Originally Posted by Archie Gemmill Goal View Post
The idiocy that passes for thought in England these days is overwhelming.
You got that right, thanks for illustrating it so well.
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Old 31st January 2019, 05:22 AM   #117
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Originally Posted by lionking View Post
I don’t know who you are referring to here, but I have never said police in this case should not have investigated. My point is that once they saw the tweet, they should have dropped the whole matter. Instead they contacted the tweeter, reportedly lectured him and recorded the event. That is what’s ridiculous.
Except that it wasn't just one tweet. There were at least 29 others, presumably in a similar vein.
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Old 31st January 2019, 05:27 AM   #118
Archie Gemmill Goal
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Originally Posted by Information Analyst View Post
Except that it wasn't just one tweet. There were at least 29 others, presumably in a similar vein.
The thing I find odd, is that if I was being rational about it I would much rather someone spoke to me BEFORE I committed a crime and told me that I was getting close to the mark rather than nothing happen and then suddenly be charged with something in the future.

The guy comes across as a prize plonker anyway... wittering on about not being able to talk about issues. If he cared about the issue he would be able to discuss it in a sensible and coherent way. Not via the medium of limerick. He has no interest in being able to debate or discuss the issue, he's only concerned about not being able to take the piss out of people he thinks deserve it. Like most of these free speech advocates, he's only interested in being able to continue to insult people as he sees fit.
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Old 31st January 2019, 05:28 AM   #119
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In the interests of balance the CCO that made the call also sounds a bit of a plonker - 'I went on a course about transgender issues'.
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Old 31st January 2019, 05:28 AM   #120
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Originally Posted by Archie Gemmill Goal View Post
A community cohesion officer should have threatened a complainant with assault in response to a complaint. Indeed. That would be a much better system!

Jesus wept. The idiocy that passes for thought in England these days is overwhelming.
I don't think that part was meant to be taken literally. What I found sensible was to ask the complainant what the offense was and on discovery that it isn't actually a crime, then case closed. Why the need to contact the excop?
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