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Old 6th February 2019, 08:17 PM   #361
psionl0
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Originally Posted by Roger Ramjets View Post
Not exactly nothing. It artificially raises the voter turnout so advocates can claim that 'democracy' is working. This will be of enormous propaganda value once we become a one party police state, since the high turnout will prove that everyone supports it. Then we can proudly join the ranks of other dictatorships where the ruling party gets 100% of the vote.
Mandatory voting ==> one party dictatorship?
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Old 6th February 2019, 08:56 PM   #362
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
Mandatory voting ==> one party dictatorship?

Give them time. 100 years of compulsory voting in Australia is nothing to the nefarious people who are working towards becoming Dictators. They take the long view, and will be ready to strike any decade or two from now. 2200 CE at the very latest.


People like Roger Ramjets understand this.



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Old 7th February 2019, 02:37 AM   #363
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Originally Posted by CORed View Post
I agree. You can make it mandatory to show up at the polling place, or to return a mail in ballot, with a fine for failing to do so, but as long as you have a secret ballot, you can't prevent people from returning a blank ballot, or marking their ballot randomly. I really don't see how mandatory voting makes any difference at all.
It turns out that people aren't voting out of laziness rather some ideological position. If PARTICIPATION is mandatory, it turns out that they actually do want to express their opinion after all.

Voting is still not mandatory in Australia.
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Old 7th February 2019, 02:47 AM   #364
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
I shouldn't have to pay the government *anything*, for the right to not vote if I don't want to.
You already do.
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Old 8th February 2019, 05:19 PM   #365
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
He still has to cast a ballot, which is part of the voting process. We're just playing word games, here. He can't just sit it out without getting fined.
Except you can request and return a postal vote, or not vote at all and receive a piddly little fine.

(If you don't respond to the fine, your name is taken of the electoral roll, because you're presumed to have moved.)
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Old 8th February 2019, 06:50 PM   #366
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Originally Posted by novaphile View Post
Except you can request and return a postal vote, or not vote at all and receive a piddly little fine.

(If you don't respond to the fine, your name is taken of the electoral roll, because you're presumed to have moved.)
I know all that. None of that changes anything I've said.
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Old 8th February 2019, 11:57 PM   #367
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
Mandatory voting ==> one party dictatorship?
I'm not saying it's inevitable, but mandatory voting is a tool favored by dictators.

Mandatory:
Synonyms - compulsory, commanding, forced.
Antonyms - optional, voluntary, free.

Rights:
Quote:
...are legal, social, or ethical principles of freedom or entitlement; that is, rights are the fundamental normative rules about what is allowed of people or owed to people
When voting becomes mandatory it is no longer a right. If the government can get away with subverting such an essential right, what's to stop them from extending the practice to other activities? Religious rights ==> forced observance of Christianity, reproductive rights ==> forced childbirth. Think that couldn't happen here? Think again - it's already happening! And a large section of the population would love to see it enforced at Federal level.
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Old 9th February 2019, 09:27 AM   #368
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Norm's explanation is better. You are just making up a giant CT.
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Old 9th February 2019, 09:28 AM   #369
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There's still too much of a balancing act between mandatory voting being just super awesome because of all these reasons, but any concerns getting brushed off via "Oh it's doesn't matter because nobody takes it seriously and if you don't do it they don't really do anything to you..."
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Old 9th February 2019, 10:25 AM   #370
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
There's still too much of a balancing act between mandatory voting being just super awesome because of all these reasons, but any concerns getting brushed off via "Oh it's doesn't matter because nobody takes it seriously and if you don't do it they don't really do anything to you..."
I find it makes more sense when viewed as a cultural quirk, rather than as an ethical principle or as a public policy.

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Old 9th February 2019, 02:32 PM   #371
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In South Australia, we did not get a general franchise to vote for representatives in the upper house until 1973.

https://www.parliament.sa.gov.au/ABO...veCouncil.aspx

I'm stunned at the "Waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaah making me participate is baaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaad..." in this thread.
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Old 9th February 2019, 02:42 PM   #372
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Originally Posted by novaphile View Post
In South Australia, we did not get a general franchise to vote for representatives in the upper house until 1973.



https://www.parliament.sa.gov.au/ABO...veCouncil.aspx



I'm stunned at the "Waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaah making me participate is baaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaad..." in this thread.
Forcing participation is bad, though.

Also, I think you owe me an apology.
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Old 9th February 2019, 04:24 PM   #373
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
There's still too much of a balancing act between mandatory voting being just super awesome because of all these reasons, but any concerns getting brushed off via "Oh it's doesn't matter because nobody takes it seriously and if you don't do it they don't really do anything to you..."
It's more the case of Australians describing what it is like when you have mandatory voting. Any "concerns" listed here are dismissed because they are simply not an issue in Australia.

Australians don't see mandatory voting as an attack on individual freedoms. At worst, it is a minor inconvenience.

Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
I find it makes more sense when viewed as a cultural quirk, rather than as an ethical principle or as a public policy.
Sounds about right.
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Old 10th February 2019, 02:25 AM   #374
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
So far, no such argument has been put forward.
It has now:

Originally Posted by Cain View Post

We saw these arguments.



It's going to be difficult to get someone who does not see the problem to agree that a proposed solution solves a non-problem. This is especially difficult if anyone believes the policy will lead to the election of leaders that are personally less preferred (more Democrats, fewer Republicans). Besides that, "solve" is too high a standard. Do laws against homicide "solve" the murder problem? Compulsory voting leads to a number of improvements, which have been identified and repeated throughout this thread. They appear on this page.



What's the less intrusive solution?



This is an abuse of language. Is it important everyone pays their taxes? Yeah, sure. What happens if one person cheats and does not pay their taxes? Well, pretty much nothing. Aha, I guess it's not important that everyone pays their taxes! This is the way it goes with public goods. These same arguments could be used against anything. A hard-core libertarian could say the state should not force them to vaccinate their children.
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Old 10th February 2019, 02:36 AM   #375
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Americans are already "forced" to participate in elections even if they do not want to vote.
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Old 13th February 2019, 06:26 PM   #376
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An article on Australia's citizenship test was published today in the Sydney Morning Herald, included in which was a sample test:

https://www.news.com.au/lifestyle/re...4bb302f38c6a03

Relevant to this thread was the following question:

8. Which of these is a responsibility of Australian citizens aged 18 years or over?

a. To attend local council meetings

b. To vote in elections

c. To have a current Australian passport


Yes, Karen - voting in a democracy is both a right and a responsibility. Can this statement at least be agreed?

If coercion to exercise a responsibility is inherently wrong, as has been claimed in this thread, why is there coercion for other responsibilities and they don't seem to garner the same outrage? Or, let's consider the reverse: what would be the impact of removing coercion from other responsibilities?
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Old 18th February 2019, 06:29 PM   #377
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Australia has a Citizenship test?
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Old 19th February 2019, 12:56 AM   #378
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Originally Posted by PhantomWolf View Post
Australia has a Citizenship test?
Hey, not every country is as enlightened as New Zealand.

History of voting in New Zealand
Quote:
Whilst the possibility of compulsory voting has gained some traction, current Prime Minister Jacinda Arden has expressed her hesitation, saying that compulsion is an ineffective way to foster democratic engagement in non-voting demographics.
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