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Old 1st February 2019, 12:08 PM   #81
BobTheCoward
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The wrong question is being asked.

What is the objective of voting?

Once we establish what person X wants, we can better determine if mandatory voting accomplishes it.
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Old 1st February 2019, 12:10 PM   #82
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
The thing is, I don't need a law to force me to register an "abstain" vote. I can simply... abstain.
In the mean time you can use our presently ****** up system to discourage and prevent those who may disagree with you not to vote. Right?

After all, this is what troubles McConnell. That if more people voted, he would no longer wield power and people wouldn't curry his favor. No one to loan him use of private aircraft and resort homes in spectacular places.
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Old 1st February 2019, 12:11 PM   #83
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Originally Posted by Dr. Keith View Post
I agree with you on this. I don't need mandatory voting, but I do want it to be so damn easy to vote that anyone who doesn't vote is a target for public shaming.
That doesn't have to do with ease of voting, but with privacy of voting.

I can't think of any wholesome way to report people's voting activity such that those that abstain can be targeted for shaming.
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Old 1st February 2019, 12:14 PM   #84
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
In the mean time you can use our presently ****** up system to discourage and prevent those who may disagree with you not to vote. Right?
Wrong.

Quote:
After all, this is what troubles McConnell. That if more people voted, he would no longer wield power and people wouldn't curry his favor. No one to loan him use of private aircraft and resort homes in spectacular places.
I appreciate the explanation, but actually I already understand that a politician's primary concern is grasping power and maintaining their grip on it. McConnell's got some douchey reasons for being against mandatory voting. I don't agree with his reasons, but I do agree with the outcome.

Saying that McConnell has bad reasons for being against it doesn't actually constitute a convincing argument that I should be for it.
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Old 1st February 2019, 12:53 PM   #85
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Again (since this keeps getting lost in the noise) I'm not against making voting easier.

I'm against the idea that's it's the magic bullet that's finally going to make winning easy for one of the tribes, this idea that all the people not speaking agree with you.
This is specious because making voting easier is a noble end unto itself; the outcome is immaterial.
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Old 1st February 2019, 12:59 PM   #86
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
What you are ommitting is the deliberate attempt by some to encourage that apathy. That this is an often used political strategy.
I too agree, I don't think you can divorce apathy from obstructionism; I think in the case of voting the latter foments, or at least informs, the former in no small part.
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Old 1st February 2019, 01:00 PM   #87
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Wrong.

I appreciate the explanation, but actually I already understand that a politician's primary concern is grasping power and maintaining their grip on it. McConnell's got some douchey reasons for being against mandatory voting. I don't agree with his reasons, but I do agree with the outcome.

Saying that McConnell has bad reasons for being against it doesn't actually constitute a convincing argument that I should be for it.
To a certain degree, I'm playing Devil's Advocate here. I'm not sure how I stand on 'mandatory voting'. I mean if you really don't give a damn, I'm not all that enthusiastic of forcing you. That said, I do believe voting is more than a right, it's a duty.

Just don't wave the flag and celebrate the 4th of July and Memorial Day. Don't pretend you're patriotic. Because you're NOT.

And don't pretend you're working on behalf of the people while at the same time working to disenfranchise many of them.

(BTW, I'm not talking about you. Just those that do this.)
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Old 1st February 2019, 01:10 PM   #88
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
To a certain degree, I'm playing Devil's Advocate here. I'm not sure how I stand on 'mandatory voting'. I mean if you really don't give a damn, I'm not all that enthusiastic of forcing you. That said, I do believe voting is more than a right, it's a duty.
I'm with you so far.

One of my basic principles is that society works better, and individuals are better off, when duties are left as a matter of personal choice rather than state coercion, wherever possible.

Yes, voting is a duty. No, voting should not be mandatory. And yes, it can be a legitimate exercise of your duty to vote, to abstain from voting by the expedient of simply not wasting time going to the polls.

Last edited by theprestige; 1st February 2019 at 01:11 PM.
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Old 1st February 2019, 01:20 PM   #89
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Originally Posted by Checkmite View Post
I too agree, I don't think you can divorce apathy from obstructionism; I think in the case of voting the latter foments, or at least informs, the former in no small part.
I use loved to vote.

Go to the local school, or library or church a few blocks away. Maybe, I'd have to wait 10 or 15 minutes but usually not at all. The smiling faces of the people working the election. Almost always sweet retired people who would find my name and point me to one of the booths. I'd vote quickly and return with my ballot and put it in the box and they would give me the flag sticker that says 'I voted'.

I'd wear it the rest of the day. It was the one day I always truly felt proud to be an American.

But I will never forget that not everyone has that Mayberry RFD experience. I also know what it is like to wait two hours in line and see people give up and not vote simply because they don't have the time. I also was purged from my precinct's voter roll once and told I couldn't vote because I wasn't registered. I almost started a fight I was so angry. And I'm white. Imagine you're a person of color knowing this is the way of the world.
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Old 1st February 2019, 01:37 PM   #90
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
I'm with you so far.

One of my basic principles is that society works better, and individuals are better off, when duties are left as a matter of personal choice rather than state coercion, wherever possible.

Yes, voting is a duty. No, voting should not be mandatory. And yes, it can be a legitimate exercise of your duty to vote, to abstain from voting by the expedient of simply not wasting time going to the polls.
I don't. Not even close. It's amazing how a small amount of coercion helps to make a better society. A world without laws is Somalia. People would ignore countless needed laws simply because of the lack of a penalty. Sure, you probably wouldn't kill people just because the penalty is severe. But I'm pretty sure I'd drive faster and ignore other traffic laws. And that's just the beginning.

A great many people wouldn't serve in the Armed Forces in a war. I give you Bill Clinton, George W and Donald Trump. It's amazing the lengths people go to avoid paying their taxes. Or just look at the individuals and corporations that will pollute because they can't or won't be bothered. Or those who refused to accommodate minorities.

Sure it would be nice if everyone did the right thing, but I have no problem with laws.
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Old 1st February 2019, 01:54 PM   #91
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Compulsory voting with penalties seems like a really bad idea, and I'll bet it would result in a lot of write-ins for Mickey Mouse and Homer Simpson that would have to be processed and counted. And how would you enforce it? What would happen to people who didn't pay their fine? Would you start arresting people who don't vote? Suspending their drivers' licenses? What would make more sense would be to create an incentive to vote. You could give people a local bus pass to pay for their trip to the polls, or maybe a small credit on their income taxes. One suggestion I've heard is to enter every voter in a special state lottery, with multiple prizes in every Congressional district. Positive reinforcement is generally more effective than punishment.
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Old 1st February 2019, 02:03 PM   #92
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
That doesn't have to do with ease of voting, but with privacy of voting.

I can't think of any wholesome way to report people's voting activity such that those that abstain can be targeted for shaming.
I just meant those in my social circle. As in:
Where did you end up voting?
Oh, I didn't.
Then get off your ass and go vote, you moron.
I can't be that direct when voting is not easy. That people have to put a lot of effort into finding a polling place and time that works for them makes it hard for me to be a dick. And I like being a dick. You should know this by now.
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Old 1st February 2019, 02:08 PM   #93
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
Compulsory voting with penalties seems like a really bad idea, and I'll bet it would result in a lot of write-ins for Mickey Mouse and Homer Simpson that would have to be processed and counted. And how would you enforce it? What would happen to people who didn't pay their fine? Would you start arresting people who don't vote? Suspending their drivers' licenses? What would make more sense would be to create an incentive to vote. You could give people a local bus pass to pay for their trip to the polls, or maybe a small credit on their income taxes. One suggestion I've heard is to enter every voter in a special state lottery, with multiple prizes in every Congressional district. Positive reinforcement is generally more effective than punishment.

Perhaps an Aussie can weigh in on how it works. I'm also not sure if your last sentence is actually true.
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Old 1st February 2019, 02:09 PM   #94
theprestige
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Originally Posted by Dr. Keith View Post
I just meant those in my social circle. As in:
Where did you end up voting?
Oh, I didn't.
Then get off your ass and go vote, you moron.
I can't be that direct when voting is not easy. That people have to put a lot of effort into finding a polling place and time that works for them makes it hard for me to be a dick. And I like being a dick. You should know this by now.
See what I mean? No wholesome way to do this.

Your social circle sounds like obnoxious dicks who like to intrude into stuff that's none of their business.

Me:

Where did you end up voting?
Nunya.
What?
What is no language I ever heard of.
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Old 1st February 2019, 02:21 PM   #95
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Originally Posted by Dr. Keith View Post
I just meant those in my social circle. As in:
Where did you end up voting?
Oh, I didn't.
Then get off your ass and go vote, you moron.
I can't be that direct when voting is not easy. That people have to put a lot of effort into finding a polling place and time that works for them makes it hard for me to be a dick. And I like being a dick. You should know this by now.
This is another argument for conducting elections by mail, as three states do now. It's easier to rebuke somebody, even fine them, for not returning a piece of paper, as opposed to requiring them to take time off work to ride buses across town to stand in line at a polling place.
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Old 1st February 2019, 02:31 PM   #96
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
Perhaps an Aussie can weigh in on how it works. I'm also not sure if your last sentence is actually true.
That could be a whole different thread. I would argue that making people choose to do what you want them to do means you don't have to worry about what they're doing when you're not watching.
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Old 1st February 2019, 02:39 PM   #97
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
Perhaps an Aussie can weigh in on how it works. I'm also not sure if your last sentence is actually true.
Not Australian, but here's how it works. Failing to vote can result in a massive, brutal fine of $20. But it's apparently enough to get a 94% participation rate (although an opponent challenges that number). I suspect what motivates people is not the fear of the fine, but the idea that "This is the law, everybody else is doing it, so I should too."
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-23810381
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Old 1st February 2019, 02:40 PM   #98
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
See what I mean? No wholesome way to do this.
Odd, I thought it was wholesome as presented. Maybe leave off the moron part.

Quote:
Your social circle sounds like obnoxious dicks who like to intrude into stuff that's none of their business.
Surely this isn't surprising.

Quote:
Me:

Where did you end up voting?
Nunya.
What?
What is no language I ever heard of.
That sounds pretentious to the point of being even a bit of a snowflake. I'm not asking who you voted for or why, just did you vote and how was the experience. I mean if so many topics are off limits I can imagine great social interactions: Sure come have a beer and we will talk about the weather and . . . football? Jesus, please don't say baseball or I'm ordering shots, three for me one for you.
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Old 1st February 2019, 02:44 PM   #99
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
Not Australian, but here's how it works. Failing to vote can result in a massive, brutal fine of $20. But it's apparently enough to get a 94% participation rate (although an opponent challenges that number). I suspect what motivates people is not the fear of the fine, but the idea that "This is the law, everybody else is doing it, so I should too."
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-23810381
That's kind of what I thought. And as much as I question the idea of coercion, I absolutely love the idea of ending the practice of people actually working to disenfranchise any of their fellow citizens.
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Old 1st February 2019, 04:21 PM   #100
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Mandatory voting would likely violate the 1st amendment as compelled speech. And any reporting on it would potentially run afoul of the 4th. I also don't see the public good in forcing people to take a position, or intentionally file spoiled ballots, in something they have chosen not to engage. Even out in Texas we have early voting. Not being able to get to a polling place during working hours just doesn't fly since you can vote on the weekends too.
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Old 1st February 2019, 04:41 PM   #101
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Originally Posted by Leftus View Post
Mandatory voting would likely violate the 1st amendment as compelled speech. And any reporting on it would potentially run afoul of the 4th. I also don't see the public good in forcing people to take a position, or intentionally file spoiled ballots, in something they have chosen not to engage. Even out in Texas we have early voting. Not being able to get to a polling place during working hours just doesn't fly since you can vote on the weekends too.
That's a stretch on both Amendments. I wouldn't even consider mandatory voting if Republicans weren't trying to disenfranchise voters as a political strategy. How about automatic voter registration then? Would you be opposed to that?
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Old 1st February 2019, 06:27 PM   #102
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Originally Posted by Brainster View Post
The irony is that most liberals support mandatory voting because they assume that it will help the Democrats (and most conservatives oppose it for the same reason). But consider this for a second: Isn't Trump the exact type of candidate who would do well with the politically disengaged?
Hi, ISF Posters! Professor Partisan here to remind you that words mean what one wants them to mean when posted by a devoted partisan.

In this case, the term "most" could mean:

A) I would like you to believe this made-up fact.
B) Of the tiny minority who support mandatory voting more are liberals and thus I will portray it as a liberal juggernaut and policy position.
C) Brainster doesn't do math real good.


In the few polls that address the question, the country is overwhelmingly against mandatory voting. There are demographic edges in certain groups, e.g. whites tend to oppose it more, on the whole, (85% W, 66% B, 62%H) and Republicans have a slight edge over Dems (82% to 74%) in their opposition to the idea. But no group is "in favor" of mandatory voting.
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Old 1st February 2019, 06:34 PM   #103
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
That's a stretch on both Amendments. I wouldn't even consider mandatory voting if Republicans weren't trying to disenfranchise voters as a political strategy. How about automatic voter registration then? Would you be opposed to that?
Mandatory voting is compelling an act of speech in a specific manner. Voting is speech.
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Old 1st February 2019, 06:39 PM   #104
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Okay, this was done to death in another thread about compuslory voting, but here's the Aussie report, with as little personal opinion as possible:
  • It's generally accepted that voting is a responsibility of people that live in a democracy, that right being a necessary accompaniment to the right to vote
  • Non-voting is very uncommon, not so much as because of the fine, but rather that it's very easy to vote and as long as you make a vote, it can be for anybody on the ballot paper. If you want to do a protest vote, that's your call - vote for a fringe party or spoil your vote
  • voting is friendly and community gathering for anywhere I've voted
  • political parties are centre left and centre right, with politics overall being to the left of USA.
  • Conpulsory voting removes the need to appeal to extremes to mobilise voters, as all voters have a say anyway
  • the preferential voting system also weeds out the fringes as well, because even if your person doesn't get in, the vote goes to the "least bad" alternative
  • Compulosry voting started because of really poor turnouts for voluntary voting in the 1920's
  • I'm not aware of any objections to the idea of compulsory voting by Australians - notwithstanding the emotional/philospohical concerns of citizens of other countries, but maybe I've always lived in communities that had better things to do
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Old 1st February 2019, 06:43 PM   #105
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
Mandatory voting is compelling an act of speech in a specific manner. Voting is speech.
It's arguable. But of course it hasn't been tested in the courts. But consider this Bob. If mandatory voting would be constitutionally illegal based on the first Amendment. Then you would also have to say that restricting people's right to vote as illegal based on the same right.
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Old 1st February 2019, 06:45 PM   #106
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
Mandatory voting is compelling an act of speech in a specific manner. Voting is speech.
That doesn't answer the question, though.
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Old 1st February 2019, 07:10 PM   #107
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My observation is that nobody feels coerced to vote in Australia. We are encouraged to vote (and drive safely, and vaccinate our children, and pay taxes etc etc) and in the main we do so because it’s a civic duty.
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Old 1st February 2019, 07:24 PM   #108
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Here is what I said about compulsory voting on the thread already mentioned above:


Well most of us do work on "If it aint broke, don't fix it'. The system of Parliamentary democracy that have is certainly not broke. Another Federal Government is 90% likely to be thrown out by next May. A State Government is more than likely to be retained later this month (they were returned with an increased majority).

I personally do not believe that 5 - 10 minutes once every three years is much of a price to pay for what we have, and what we can do. It is not just voting. There is the Sausage sizzle and social events as well.

Vote early, don't have breakfast just grab a snag and coffee at the booth, and look at the second hand goods sale, then shop or go watch the kids play footy, cricket, tennis, soccer, swim etc, or take them to the park, or chat with friends and neighbors (usually about anything but politics - weather is a good topic, but footy not so much - it is likely to lead to bigger arguments than who should win the election), or just go home and chill. Work your day around the ballot, or vote in the previous couple of weeks at a pre-pollday station or by mail.

It can be said that this is an imposition. That's fine. That's what some people believe. I agree that it can be, but 5 - 10 minutes twice every five to six years is a pretty minor imposition and well worth the effort.

Norm
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Old 1st February 2019, 08:00 PM   #109
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Going back to the very beginning, and the election day being a holiday, we have our elections on a Saturday, so most people are off work anyways, and many of those that aren't, work a shortened day on Saturdays so there is plenty of time to vote for everyone. We have polling places everywhere as well, so it's not hard to find one and voting takes just a few minutes.
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Old 1st February 2019, 08:01 PM   #110
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
It's arguable. But of course it hasn't been tested in the courts. But consider this Bob. If mandatory voting would be constitutionally illegal based on the first Amendment. Then you would also have to say that restricting people's right to vote as illegal based on the same right.
I also say restriction to only one vote is illegitimate.
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Old 1st February 2019, 08:15 PM   #111
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
I also say restriction to only one vote is illegitimate.
I can always count on you to go to the ridiculous. Why do I bother ever to engage you?
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Old 1st February 2019, 08:22 PM   #112
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
I also say restriction to only one vote is illegitimate.
Really allowing more than one is pointless, since all people would need to be allowed to have the same number of votes, and in the end people will drop all of their votes on the candidate they want, vote splitting would be extremely rare, so all having more then one vote would do is increase the proportions and thus the count time. By reducing it to one, it simplifies the system.
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Old 1st February 2019, 08:25 PM   #113
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Originally Posted by PhantomWolf View Post
Really allowing more than one is pointless, since all people would need to be allowed to have the same number of votes, and in the end people will drop all of their votes on the candidate they want, vote splitting would be extremely rare, so all having more then one vote would do is increase the proportions and thus the count time. By reducing it to one, it simplifies the system.
The government doesn't have the right to violate rights for the sake of simplicity.
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Old 1st February 2019, 08:27 PM   #114
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
I also say restriction to only one vote is illegitimate.
Ah, but are you prepared to defend this idea with rational argument?
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Old 1st February 2019, 08:30 PM   #115
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
The government doesn't have the right to violate rights for the sake of simplicity.
The point is that whether you have 1 vote or 15, the result will be the same, so having only one vote isn't a violation.
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Old 1st February 2019, 08:32 PM   #116
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Originally Posted by PhantomWolf View Post
The point is that whether you have 1 vote or 15, the result will be the same, so having only one vote isn't a violation.
Yes it is. It curtails an act of expression. It isn't up to someone else to decide how much speech is marginal.
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Old 1st February 2019, 08:35 PM   #117
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Originally Posted by PhantomWolf View Post
The point is that whether you have 1 vote or 15, the result will be the same, so having only one vote isn't a violation.
Pretty sure that's not Bob's point at all. But at least you're doing your part to bob the thread.

It's not almost as if you *want* to spend the next two days making this forum crappier than it already is.
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Old 1st February 2019, 08:39 PM   #118
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Ah, but are you prepared to defend this idea with rational argument?
Are you really interested in simply debating the construction that if the premises I state are true that my conclusion is true? It seems that the whole source of disagreement is we accept different things as self evidently true. I don't think we can debate that because they are self evident.
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Old 1st February 2019, 08:42 PM   #119
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
I can always count on you to go to the ridiculous. Why do I bother ever to engage you?
I have to take back what I said. You were talking about the US Constitution rather than rights generally. My points were unrelated to the constitution amd are not an answer to your questions.
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Old 1st February 2019, 09:14 PM   #120
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
Terrible idea.
A.I think if an individual does not want to vote, that is his right.
B. It really a good idea to force people who don't care about politics, and are totally ignorant about the issues vote?
Enough stupid people actually DO vote, imagine the fantasmagorical results forcing REALLY TRULY STUPID people to vote would produce.
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